Dear Maisie, I don't often respond but I had to in this case.  I can trace my lineage all the way back.  It was sheer luck.  My William Penman married Janet Iset in 1774 in Tulliallan, Perth. " William Penman of Airth Parish and Janet Izat of this - married 4 Nov".  Janet was baptised in 1755 to Willliam Izatt and Janet Coult in Tulliallan.  They were a mining family and their monuments can be seen in the Tulliallan churchyard with the miner's hammer on them.  They also tended to move around because of that.  Towns frequented by mining families were Tulliallan, Alloa, Airth, and Larbert.  I assume Janet Izat and William Penman knew of each other due to Janet's uncle Andrew marrying Isobel Jack from Airth.  Janet's mother Isobel Coult was baptised 1736 to Thomas Coult or Colt and Isobel Steuart.  Isobel's father was Walter Steuart and his grandfather was James Steuart who left quite a notable will in which he parsimoniously leaves token money to all his children who were now living in Tulliallan.  He was of the Episcopalian faith and his children had become Covenanters.  He was the changekeeper at Bridge of Allan and back in 1900 a lady named Katherine Steuart wrote a book called By Allan Water which was endorsed by a professor at the University of Edinburgh.  In that book she traces the Steuarts back to the illegitimate children of Alexander Steuart, Bishop of Scone and second son of James II.  I think she used land leases because the names have "died before" on them.  The land concerned was a farm at the crook of the Almond River just down from Scone.  They called the land "Rome" because they found a Roman encampment on it.  The family were known as the "Paips of Rome" because of the land and their questionable birth.  So, all in all, sheer luck that somebody wrote a book back in 1900. I've also traced another side of my family down using witnesses at baptisms and found myself with Henry Frazer, Ross Herald as an ancestor.  My several great grandfathers Charles Frazer died a miner but was christened with  George Innes, King's Trumpeter as a witness.  His father, James Frazer was a merchant and principal servitor to the Earl of Cassillis (which is why they ended up in Ayrshire and then Greenock).  James Norie, the famous Scottish painter was the sponsor at his baptism in the parents' absence.  His father, also called James had George Porteous, heraldic painter and Marchmount Herald as his baptism as his father was Henry Frazer, Ross Herald and half brother to George Porteous.  Charles' mother was Mary Masterton and from her I can trace back to Bruces of Airth and Clackmannan.  Firstly, I think it depends on which side of the country you come from.  I have had absolutely no luck tracing anyone on the west coast.  My Ayrshire lines (except for Charles Frazer) all end in the 1770's.  The lines that I have been able to trace all came from around the Edinburgh area or along the Firth.  The other thing to remember is that it was entirely possible to go from riches to rags in one generation between 1650 and 1710 especially when the monarchy moved south followed by the Parliament.  A whole middle/upper class of people in Edinburgh suddenly found there was nobody to buy their wares or use their services.  Court offices existed with nothing to do as the king was in London but they had to be maintained in case he came back for a visit.  In desperation, a lot of people invested in the Darien Adventure to found a colony in Panama.  That bankrupted the country. Keep plugging.  As somebody mentioned - we're all descended from Edward III. Elizabeth Russon ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: Message: 1 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 10:07:09 -0700 From: "Maisie Egger" <[email protected]> Subject: [Lanark] Joe Blow goes back to the 6th century---really! To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="UTF-8" Hello, all, How do I keep my ?cool?? When I pooh-pooh a friends? claims that he?s descended from kings and queens back to the year dot, he insists that he has documentation to prove it.  It drives me crackers as his latest assertion is that he is related to Margaret of Wessex, England, who was actually born in Hungary where the family was exiled, who then became Queen Margaret of Scotland when she married the rascally Malcolm !!!, and then Saint Margaret of Scotland (the only Scottish saint).    Margaret is the one responsible for reforming the religious practices of the church in Scotland at that time to conform to those of Rome.  She was canonised 1250. She was born ca 1045 and died at Edinburgh Castle 1093 a couple of days after her husband Malcolm III (Canmore=Bighead) and son Edward were killed at the Battle of Alnwick, Northumbria (England).  Margaret and Malcolm III had eight children, three of whom would become kings of Scotland:  Edgar 1097-1107: Alexander I 1107-1124: David 1 1124-1153. It is from David I that my friend claims lineage through this so-called royal line.  Really! We now travel back in time for more of his braggadocio to 500-589 to David, Welsh bishop, who later became St. David, patron saint of Wales (St. Andrew is the patron saint of Scotland;  St. George patron saint of England of St. George and the Dragon myth, then add on St. Patrick, each with his respective cross to make up the Union flag/jack, but somehow St. David was not included!).  There is nothing that I could glean from Google that this David of Wales, who founded many monasteries, left any progeny.  The Welsh church refused the Roman rite into the 8th century, so it is assumed that prior to that maybe some of the monks/religious may not have been celibate.  My friend is trying to tell me he?s from this St. David.  Really again! All this potted history, with no direct connection to Lanark, to ask...again...where does my American friend come up with this ?stuff,? and better yet, where does he find the documentation?  He is aligned with the LDS/Mormon church and I believe it is a requirement of this group that one does one?s family tree.  My friend is definitely an ordinary Joe blow with not one penny to rub against the other, so he is not a ?reincarnated? royal living in a pseudo castle...anything but. When he trots out all this ?stuff,? I do become irked as I?m not sure whether he is being na?ve in swallowing all these ?facts,? or if he actually believes them.  He is a brilliant person otherwise.  The farthest back I?ve landed on a limb of my tree was in the mid-1600s and they were the English, with  the Irish born in the late 1700s who appeared in Glasgow in the early 1800s, whilst the Scottish born and bred ones, mainly from Lanarkshire south to the English border, surface in the early 1700s.  I mean, their roots have to go back and back, of course, but I haven?t found documentation of such as yet. How the harry heck does this friend get back to the 6th century when I can?t even find my great-great-grandfather?s father when he was born in the 1790s?  Plus, to irk me even more, New Register House cannot find a little book of banns where I was so excited to find the banns recorded for this great-great-grandfather of mine and his wife.  In the interim, the book apparently has not been digitised, and even if it were to be found (it apparently has done a disappearing trick!), it will no longer be accessible to the public.  YET, my friend says he has documentation that he belongs to David 1 of Scotland and St. David of Wales.  Groan!!! Maisie ------------------------------

Great genealogy research, Elizabeth. That must have taken a long time to put the pieces together. I liked your history notes, too. Oftentimes we get hung up on the romance of Scotland, ignoring the ups and downs...same with our own individual trees. Even though my friend "bums his chat" about finding his antecedents back to the year dot, I patronise him! I can't argue or refute as I have no clues where he got his information from. I just think that he gilds the lily and believes what he wants to believe. Today, my friend Malcolm in England who moves heaven and earth to help me fill in the slots, uncovered the birth, marriage and death certificates of my father's cousin a few times removed, though they were of the same age and "hung out" when he came to Glasgow. He was born in Kirkcudbrightshire, but I found him living at Stanhope St., Townhead, Glasgow, in the same house where my father was born, as well as his mother and where her parents lived. He married a Glasgow person, I assume, but I don't have her birth certificate yet. He was a master shoemaker and she a domestic servant. His father before him was a shoemaker and forebears before him also plied the same trade. They were married in the minister's manse at 8 Queen Margaret Crescent, now changed to Hamilton Dr., Hillhead, a top drawer area in the west end of Glasgow where the University of Glasgow is located and where the natives are accused of being toffy-nosed with their Kelvinside speech affectation...no' Glesga patter for them! Even though the minister had his manse in this more affluent neighbourhood, the church was Dundas St. Congregational Union of Scotland, right smack dab in the middle of downtown Glasgow almost on top of Queen Street railway station. The answer as to why she attended this church is perhaps because her Townhead residence showed that it was a comparatively easy walk to the church. Maybe she just liked being a Congregationalist! Family stories had it that my father's cousin had gone to either Australia or New Zealand. Some very kind Australian and New Zealand listers some years back turned the world upside down trying to find him somewhere Downunder. Can you imagine my chagrin today when his death certificate showed he actually died at age 54 in a hospital in Glasgow not too far from where he had married at age 28! He'd stayed put! Apparently he and his wife had divorced; however, in registering his death she refers to herself as his widow. Howcum? The next part of the story is that she and her daughter went to Australia (or maybe New Zealand) on the £10 assisted passage, maybe around 1945-47, but it was after the war, of course. She must have been in her mid- fifties by then. Her first name was Mary but she went by Poll, short for Polly, which is the diminutive for Mary or Margaret. Now before I request SKS again in Australia or New Zealand to hunt for her and her daughter, who may have married after she left Glasgow, I need to go on the hunt for a death certificate in Glasgow, or at least in G.B. somewhere. If it can't be found, maybe logic should suggest that she could have gone to Australia or New Zealand with her daughter. This big long story is to remind us that sometimes family lore is just that but that "facts are chiels that winna ding and downa be disputed" ---facts are men that cannot be overturned or disputed (to quote Robert Burns). Today, I feel grateful for Malcolm helping me to get rid of some misconceptions I've been hanging on to forever! Maisie From: Elizabeth Russon Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 4:46 AM Dear Maisie, I don't often respond but I had to in this case. I can trace my lineage all the way back. It was sheer luck. My William Penman married Janet Iset in 1774 in Tulliallan, Perth. " William Penman of Airth Parish and Janet Izat of this - married 4 Nov". Janet was baptised in 1755 to Willliam Izatt and Janet Coult in Tulliallan. They were a mining family and their monuments can be seen in the Tulliallan churchyard with the miner's hammer on them. They also tended to move around because of that. Towns frequented by mining families were Tulliallan, Alloa, Airth, and Larbert. I assume Janet Izat and William Penman knew of each other due to Janet's uncle Andrew marrying Isobel Jack from Airth. Janet's mother Isobel Coult was baptised 1736 to Thomas Coult or Colt and Isobel Steuart. Isobel's father was Walter Steuart and his grandfather was James Steuart who left quite a notable will in which he parsimoniously leaves token money to all his children who were now living in Tulliallan. He was of the Episcopalian faith and his children had become Covenanters. He was the changekeeper at Bridge of Allan and back in 1900 a lady named Katherine Steuart wrote a book called By Allan Water which was endorsed by a professor at the University of Edinburgh. In that book she traces the Steuarts back to the illegitimate children of Alexander Steuart, Bishop of Scone and second son of James II. I think she used land leases because the names have "died before" on them. The land concerned was a farm at the crook of the Almond River just down from Scone. They called the land "Rome" because they found a Roman encampment on it. The family were known as the "Paips of Rome" because of the land and their questionable birth. So, all in all, sheer luck that somebody wrote a book back in 1900. ..........etc............

Hi Elizabeth Seems we are connected Janet Izat and william Penman are on my McHale line Kind regards Jean > Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 04:46:41 -0800 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Lanark] Joe Blow goes back to the 6th century---really! > > Dear Maisie, > I don't often respond but I had to in this case. I can trace my lineage all the way back. It was sheer luck. My William Penman married Janet Iset in 1774 in Tulliallan, Perth. " William Penman of Airth Parish and Janet Izat of this - married 4 Nov". Janet was baptised in 1755 to Willliam Izatt and Janet Coult in Tulliallan. They were a mining family and their monuments can be seen in the Tulliallan churchyard with the miner's hammer on them. They also tended to move around because of that. Towns frequented by mining families were Tulliallan, Alloa, Airth, and Larbert. I assume Janet Izat and William Penman knew of each other due to Janet's uncle Andrew marrying Isobel Jack from Airth. Janet's mother Isobel Coult was baptised 1736 to Thomas Coult or Colt and Isobel Steuart. Isobel's father was Walter Steuart and his grandfather was James Steuart who left quite a notable will in which he parsimoniously leaves token money to all his > children who were now living in Tulliallan. He was of the Episcopalian faith and his children had become Covenanters. He was the changekeeper at Bridge of Allan and back in 1900 a lady named Katherine Steuart wrote a book called By Allan Water which was endorsed by a professor at the University of Edinburgh. In that book she traces the Steuarts back to the illegitimate children of Alexander Steuart, Bishop of Scone and second son of James II. I think she used land leases because the names have "died before" on them. The land concerned was a farm at the crook of the Almond River just down from Scone. They called the land "Rome" because they found a Roman encampment on it. The family were known as the "Paips of Rome" because of the land and their questionable birth. So, all in all, sheer luck that somebody wrote a book back in 1900. > > I've also traced another side of my family down using witnesses at baptisms and found myself with Henry Frazer, Ross Herald as an ancestor. My several great grandfathers Charles Frazer died a miner but was christened with George Innes, King's Trumpeter as a witness. His father, James Frazer was a merchant and principal servitor to the Earl of Cassillis (which is why they ended up in Ayrshire and then Greenock). James Norie, the famous Scottish painter was the sponsor at his baptism in the parents' absence. His father, also called James had George Porteous, heraldic painter and Marchmount Herald as his baptism as his father was Henry Frazer, Ross Herald and half brother to George Porteous. Charles' mother was Mary Masterton and from her I can trace back to Bruces of Airth and Clackmannan. > > > Firstly, I think it depends on which side of the country you come from. I have had absolutely no luck tracing anyone on the west coast. My Ayrshire lines (except for Charles Frazer) all end in the 1770's. The lines that I have been able to trace all came from around the Edinburgh area or along the Firth. The other thing to remember is that it was entirely possible to go from riches to rags in one generation between 1650 and 1710 especially when the monarchy moved south followed by the Parliament. A whole middle/upper class of people in Edinburgh suddenly found there was nobody to buy their wares or use their services. Court offices existed with nothing to do as the king was in London but they had to be maintained in case he came back for a visit. In desperation, a lot of people invested in the Darien Adventure to found a colony in Panama. That bankrupted the country. > > Keep plugging. As somebody mentioned - we're all descended from Edward III. > > > Elizabeth Russon > > > ________________________________ > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > To: > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 10:07:09 -0700 > From: "Maisie Egger" <[email protected]> > Subject: [Lanark] Joe Blow goes back to the 6th century---really! > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Hello, all, > > How do I keep my ?cool?? > > When I pooh-pooh a friends? claims that he?s descended from kings and queens back to the year dot, he insists that he has documentation to prove it. It drives me crackers as his latest assertion is that he is related to Margaret of Wessex, England, who was actually born in Hungary where the family was exiled, who then became Queen Margaret of Scotland when she married the rascally Malcolm !!!, and then Saint Margaret of Scotland (the only Scottish saint). Margaret is the one responsible for reforming the religious practices of the church in Scotland at that time to conform to those of Rome. She was canonised 1250. > > She was born ca 1045 and died at Edinburgh Castle 1093 a couple of days after her husband Malcolm III (Canmore=Bighead) and son Edward were killed at the Battle of Alnwick, Northumbria (England). > > Margaret and Malcolm III had eight children, three of whom would become kings of Scotland: Edgar 1097-1107: Alexander I 1107-1124: David 1 1124-1153. > > It is from David I that my friend claims lineage through this so-called royal line. Really! > > We now travel back in time for more of his braggadocio to 500-589 to David, Welsh bishop, who later became St. David, patron saint of Wales (St. Andrew is the patron saint of Scotland; St. George patron saint of England of St. George and the Dragon myth, then add on St. Patrick, each with his respective cross to make up the Union flag/jack, but somehow St. David was not included!). There is nothing that I could glean from Google that this David of Wales, who founded many monasteries, left any progeny. The Welsh church refused the Roman rite into the 8th century, so it is assumed that prior to that maybe some of the monks/religious may not have been celibate. My friend is trying to tell me he?s from this St. David. Really again! > > All this potted history, with no direct connection to Lanark, to ask...again...where does my American friend come up with this ?stuff,? and better yet, where does he find the documentation? He is aligned with the LDS/Mormon church and I believe it is a requirement of this group that one does one?s family tree. My friend is definitely an ordinary Joe blow with not one penny to rub against the other, so he is not a ?reincarnated? royal living in a pseudo castle...anything but. > > When he trots out all this ?stuff,? I do become irked as I?m not sure whether he is being na?ve in swallowing all these ?facts,? or if he actually believes them. He is a brilliant person otherwise. The farthest back I?ve landed on a limb of my tree was in the mid-1600s and they were the English, with the Irish born in the late 1700s who appeared in Glasgow in the early 1800s, whilst the Scottish born and bred ones, mainly from Lanarkshire south to the English border, surface in the early 1700s. I mean, their roots have to go back and back, of course, but I haven?t found documentation of such as yet. > > How the harry heck does this friend get back to the 6th century when I can?t even find my great-great-grandfather?s father when he was born in the 1790s? Plus, to irk me even more, New Register House cannot find a little book of banns where I was so excited to find the banns recorded for this great-great-grandfather of mine and his wife. In the interim, the book apparently has not been digitised, and even if it were to be found (it apparently has done a disappearing trick!), it will no longer be accessible to the public. YET, my friend says he has documentation that he belongs to David 1 of Scotland and St. David of Wales. Groan!!! > > Maisie > > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message