Amusing to read about the Irish origins of whisky. Even more amusing then to know that Guinness was first made in LONDON! When something has become an iconic facet of the culture though, the origins don't matter. It's who does it BEST! Kathryn -----Original Message----- From: lanark-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lanark-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nivard Ovington via Sent: Thursday, 14 January 2016 8:20 PM To: lanark@rootsweb.com Subject: [Lanark] One for Maisie Not sure if you should read this article Maisie ;-) <http://www.scotsman.com/heritage/people-places/whisky-haggis-and-four-other -things-that-aren-t-actually-scottish-1-3997867> -- Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> Very interesting - but perhaps you could define "jackdaw"? A jackdaw http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4505383 is a species of crow which is well-known for collecting small and often shiny objects to decorate its nest. By extension the word is sometimes used metaphorically for a person who likes to collect and hoard things. Anne

Anne, thank you. That's a new one on me. Is it similar to a magpie? Ken Harrison North Vancouver, Canada -----Original Message----- From: Anne Burgess [mailto:anne.listmail@btinternet.com] Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 12:08 AM To: Ken Harrison; lanark@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Lanark] "Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lightingof the blue touch-paper? > Very interesting - but perhaps you could define "jackdaw"? A jackdaw http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4505383 is a species of crow which is well-known for collecting small and often shiny objects to decorate its nest. By extension the word is sometimes used metaphorically for a person who likes to collect and hoard things. Anne

Quite so Kathryn Going back to the traits of certain peoples, I do have to smile when some espouse the virtues of their particular native people, as all peoples today are made up from other peoples in the great big melting pot of humanity There can be very few if any people that can truly say they are unique to their location, perhaps a few odd tribes in the Amazon but even they are probably a mixture by now if they weren't before Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 14/01/2016 21:54, nautakat wrote: > Amusing to read about the Irish origins of whisky. Even more amusing then > to know that Guinness was first made in LONDON! > When something has become an iconic facet of the culture though, the origins > don't matter. It's who does it BEST! > Kathryn --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Well, at the risk of lighting the blue touch paper...I thought it was worldwide too I ! I read previous posts about the Geordie accent and Sunderland (stand back and light another blue touch paper)...I am Sunderland born and bred, our accent is very different to our neighbours 12 miles up the road. There is a massive local rivalry in my opinion (oopps, pass a match please). I can see similarities between what Maisie says about different ways of speaking from street to street. I can easily pick up different accents across towns from Sunderland to South Shields, Gateshead etc to the north and to County Durham villages and to Teesside to the south. But Maisie...even to a North East England lad like me, when the Glasgae patter starts at speed, I struggle to keep up ! Cheers everyone Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Burgess via" <lanark@rootsweb.com> To: "Nivard Ovington" <ovington.one@gmail.com>; <lanark@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] "Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lightingof the blue touch-paper? >> I confess I thought lighting the blue touch paper was known >> worldwide ;-) >> Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > I thought so too. > > Anne > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. > > You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on > the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

I suspect those of an age will know "light blue touch paper and retire immediately" On your fireworks of course ;-) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 14/01/2016 21:30, Celia Renshaw via wrote: > Aye, tis always a surprise what sayings are universally understood and > which aren't. In my own 'sayings' lexicon, mostly picked up from my > mother who was a jackdaw for collecting them from hither and thither, > lighting the blue touch paper is an idiom for knowingly and > deliberately, perhaps cynically, provoking an explosive reaction, not > just any old reaction, but outrage, annoyance, protest, etc. > > I also received a different teaching about dialect and > accent/pronunciation, so it only goes to show, nothing stands in the > way of mutual understanding better than communication. > > Celia Renshaw > in Chesterfield, Derbyshire --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Aye, tis always a surprise what sayings are universally understood and which aren't. In my own 'sayings' lexicon, mostly picked up from my mother who was a jackdaw for collecting them from hither and thither, lighting the blue touch paper is an idiom for knowingly and deliberately, perhaps cynically, provoking an explosive reaction, not just any old reaction, but outrage, annoyance, protest, etc. I also received a different teaching about dialect and accent/pronunciation, so it only goes to show, nothing stands in the way of mutual understanding better than communication. Celia Renshaw in Chesterfield, Derbyshire On 14 January 2016 at 19:12, Maisie Egger via <lanark@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Celia, and just what does this mean --- "Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lighting of the blue touch-paper? --- > and here I’ve been carping on about the Glasgow patter being unintelligible for those not conversant with it. > > I had to go to Google to get an understanding of the expression only to discover that it is a colloquialism...so if you’re not in the know, you won’t ‘get it!’ > > > "Touchpaper" is paper impregnated with saltpetre (potassium or sodium nitrate; a. k. a. "nitre"), and used as a fuse for explosives, > > especially fireworks. Lighting it initiates the process leading to the explosion. To "light the blue touch paper" is simply a colloquial expression > > meaning "to kick things off" or "to get things started" > > > Maisie > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. > > You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> I confess I thought lighting the blue touch paper was known > worldwide ;-) > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) I thought so too. Anne

Hi Maisie I confess I thought lighting the blue touch paper was known worldwide ;-) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 14/01/2016 19:12, Maisie Egger via wrote: > Celia, and just what does this mean --- "Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lighting of the blue touch-paper? --- > and here I’ve been carping on about the Glasgow patter being unintelligible for those not conversant with it. > > I had to go to Google to get an understanding of the expression only to discover that it is a colloquialism...so if you’re not in the know, you won’t ‘get it!’ > > > "Touchpaper" is paper impregnated with saltpetre (potassium or sodium nitrate; a. k. a. "nitre"), and used as a fuse for explosives, > > especially fireworks. Lighting it initiates the process leading to the explosion. To "light the blue touch paper" is simply a colloquial expression > > meaning "to kick things off" or "to get things started" > > > Maisie --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Celia I am delighted to say that Matt Baker on Countryfile, is from County Durham, so a Wearsider rather than a Geordie. MUCH more refined ;-) So was my grandfather, and 80 years in Glasgow didn't mellow his Sunderland accent one bit! Having spent 35 years of my working life in London, and living in Surrey, I had to very quickly change my accent as no-one could understand me when I first moved south. It wasn't so much the strength of Glasgow accent, after all I was from Langside ;-) (that's Langside pronounced "Lengside"), but the baritone voice which made it sound much more guttural. I raised my voice an octave, slowed down a little and it mellowed by itself. I damaged my vocal chords doing this, so now that I'm approaching the time to hang my boots up, I am planning to drop my voice back to its normal octave. Enjoying the discussion - nice one Maisie. Edward On 14 January 2016 at 11:53, Celia Renshaw via <lanark@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Nivard, I think it's dialect rather than accent that usually causes > understanding issues. Here in my adopted county I love it when people > speak in one of the Derbyshire dialects but that wouldn't work for BBC > announcers or any other nationwide public service. I agree we need > clear understandable language for that, free of dialect that people > outside a particular location won't understand, but regional accents > with it are fine and dandy with me. My favourite is Geordie (eg. that > nice chap on Countryfile) - and I remember seeing the results of a > survey of call centre callers who voted for the accent they most liked > to hear when they rang up - and it was Geordie. > > Whereas someone speaking Geordie dialect... different matter. > Phrase-books and interpreters required. Judging by the fascinating > info posted here about Glasgow dialect, same applies with that, even > for me who had a Glasgow dad. But I feel sure the speakers of Geordie > and Glaswegian do nevertheless think they're speaking "properly" :) > > I don't watch the news these days so have no worries about desk or > no-desk - though I caught a few seconds of BBC news the other night, > and chap was behind a desk, like in olden times. > > Celia Renshaw > in Chesterfield, Derbyshire > > On 14 January 2016 at 10:29, Nivard Ovington via <lanark@rootsweb.com> > wrote: > > Hi Celia > > > > Light blue touch paper? > > > > Not at all, at least it wasn't my intention in any way, I mean speak > > properly in the accepted and general usage sense > > > > Meaning speak clearly with little or no accent so the majority of people > > can understand what that person is saying wherever that person is > > watching or listening from > > > > Apart from the left wing BBC and regional accents, in business if you > > were trying to get on and spoke with say a thick (meaning strong) > > Geordie accent you are *less* likely to get on than someone of similar > > ability who spoke without an accent > > (there will always be exceptions to the rule of course but in the main) > > > > Its just plain common sense > > > > I do not include myself in the "speaking proper" bracket as I have a > > Leicestershire accent, *I* don't think I do :-) but others certainly do > > > > I have no problem with speaking to others day to day in whatever accent > > or dialect they may have but for some things plain understandable speech > > is preferred, at least by me anyway > > > > I don't particularly mind regional accents for reading the news in the > > region they are from etc but prefer plain clear speech and I do wish > > they would put newsreaders back behind a desk, I hate them wandering all > > over the studio, they always look uncomfortable reporting whilst > > standing there > > > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > > > On 14/01/2016 09:28, Celia Renshaw via wrote: > >> "Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lighting of the blue > touch-paper? > >> > >> I've been very happy in recent years to hear 'regional' accents on the > >> BBC - the programme announcers, local news journalists and so forth - > >> so if the BBC is anything to go by, as it always was (we used to talk > >> of BBC English), then regional accents ARE speaking properly these > >> days :) > >> > >> Celia Renshaw > >> Chesterfield, Derbyshire > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. > > > > You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on > the following link to the list information page online: > > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. > > You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on > the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- *Edward*

Meant to include Lanark List. From: frank017@sympatico.ca To: nautakat@gmail.com Subject: RE: [Lanark] One for Maisie Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 17:11:24 -0500 LOL !..I'm having my daily can of Guinness right now ,, early supper today. Anyway I don't think you can really pin down the origins of certain things,they probably started in various places and were copied by lots of people of different races...People recognize a good thing when they see it and copy it. CHEERS !Frank McGonigal ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > To: ovington.one@gmail.com; lanark@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:54:55 +1100 > Subject: Re: [Lanark] One for Maisie > From: lanark@rootsweb.com > > Amusing to read about the Irish origins of whisky. Even more amusing then > to know that Guinness was first made in LONDON! > When something has become an iconic facet of the culture though, the origins > don't matter. It's who does it BEST! > Kathryn > > -----Original Message----- > From: lanark-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lanark-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of Nivard Ovington via > Sent: Thursday, 14 January 2016 8:20 PM > To: lanark@rootsweb.com > Subject: [Lanark] One for Maisie > > > Not sure if you should read this article Maisie ;-) > > <http://www.scotsman.com/heritage/people-places/whisky-haggis-and-four-other > -things-that-aren-t-actually-scottish-1-3997867> > > -- > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. > Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. > > You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on the > following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. > > You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Maisie, Being trilingual, you were not alone, according to a programme on BBC Radio 4. Linguists have discovered that it is quite usual for teenagers to have five versions of their language that they use; typically one for use at home, one for the classroom and one for the playground, plus others. They did not mix them up. My memory at Hillington primary school was that you could not tell much about a person by the speech they used in class, but once you were in the playground you could almost tell which street they lived in by the nuances of their playground speech. Thank you for starting this thread. I'm sure it is one we all have a view on. Iain McKenzie On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 12:44 AM, Maisie Egger via <lanark@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Researchers say that the Glaswegian sound has stayed the same, > > The Jan/Feb 2016 issue of The Highlander magazine is a bit more > informative than this Google link, though the research is by the same > person: > > > http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/619869/Future-Scottish-accents-sounding-good > > The Highlander magazine heading: “Scottish Accents Endure While England’s > Disappear” is maybe a bit of a glittering generality as English friends and > relatives seem to have the same speech pattern as they started out with. > > To me, the Glasgow ‘wye o’ speakin’ is ‘murder polis’ and has indeed not > changed a bit! Noted before, since coming to North American, I have had to > train myself to soften the Glasgow way of speaking as no one could > understand me, yet I did not consider myself rough spoken. Being an office > worker one had to smooth the edges off a bit when answering the phone. > > As a young office girl I was tri-lingual(!): the house speech where my > mother would not tolerate even acceptable Scottish words---standard English > in this house, please; business office lingo, then street patter if one > were associating with others outside of one’s normal purlieu. A little tip > off would be if a young teenage girl from another street would ask if you > went to the jiggin’. Jiggin’? No, you’d answer politely, I’m too young to > be allowed to go to (the) dancing. > > Researchers at the University of Glasgow concluded from audio recordings > dating from WWI that English regional accents are becoming more homogenized > than Scots accents. The assumption was that traditional regional accents > throughout the U.K. were being softened and dying out. > > The contention is that Glaswegian is less liable to change than what is > going on in areas of England. Whether from a rough part of Glasgow or the > more refined west end, it would appear, according to this research, that > all levels of the Glasgow way of speaking have been maintained without too > much change. > > Again, it all depends on where one lives in Glasgow and how a particular > area affects the speech pattern. If one is a bit more refined one could be > ‘accused’ of speaking with a Kelvinside accent (west side of Glasgow). > Also, if one were university educated, Glasgow or otherwise, it is almost a > foregone conclusion that the edges have been taken off the typical-sounding > Glaswegian’s voice. One of my mother’s sisters attended Glasgow University > and sounded so much more ‘refined,’ shall we say, than her four sisters. > > To quote “Ah’m no’ a herry fae Ferry Street!” --- I am not a hairy > (tough, loud, mouthy person) person from Fairy Street! > > Maisie > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. > > You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on > the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Celia, Very interesting - but perhaps you could define "jackdaw"? Ken Harrison North Vancouver, Canada -----Original Message----- From: lanark-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lanark-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Celia Renshaw via Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 1:30 PM To: Maisie Egger; lanark@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Lanark] "Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lighting of the blue touch-paper? Aye, tis always a surprise what sayings are universally understood and which aren't. In my own 'sayings' lexicon, mostly picked up from my mother who was a jackdaw for collecting them from hither and thither, lighting the blue touch paper is an idiom for knowingly and deliberately, perhaps cynically, provoking an explosive reaction, not just any old reaction, but outrage, annoyance, protest, etc. I also received a different teaching about dialect and accent/pronunciation, so it only goes to show, nothing stands in the way of mutual understanding better than communication. Celia Renshaw in Chesterfield, Derbyshire On 14 January 2016 at 19:12, Maisie Egger via <lanark@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Celia, and just what does this mean --- "Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lighting of the blue touch-paper? --- > and here I've been carping on about the Glasgow patter being unintelligible for those not conversant with it. > > I had to go to Google to get an understanding of the expression only to discover that it is a colloquialism...so if you're not in the know, you won't 'get it!' > > > "Touchpaper" is paper impregnated with saltpetre (potassium or sodium nitrate; a. k. a. "nitre"), and used as a fuse for explosives, > > especially fireworks. Lighting it initiates the process leading to the explosion. To "light the blue touch paper" is simply a colloquial expression > > meaning "to kick things off" or "to get things started" > > > Maisie > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. > > You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Nivard, I think it's dialect rather than accent that usually causes understanding issues. Here in my adopted county I love it when people speak in one of the Derbyshire dialects but that wouldn't work for BBC announcers or any other nationwide public service. I agree we need clear understandable language for that, free of dialect that people outside a particular location won't understand, but regional accents with it are fine and dandy with me. My favourite is Geordie (eg. that nice chap on Countryfile) - and I remember seeing the results of a survey of call centre callers who voted for the accent they most liked to hear when they rang up - and it was Geordie. Whereas someone speaking Geordie dialect... different matter. Phrase-books and interpreters required. Judging by the fascinating info posted here about Glasgow dialect, same applies with that, even for me who had a Glasgow dad. But I feel sure the speakers of Geordie and Glaswegian do nevertheless think they're speaking "properly" :) I don't watch the news these days so have no worries about desk or no-desk - though I caught a few seconds of BBC news the other night, and chap was behind a desk, like in olden times. Celia Renshaw in Chesterfield, Derbyshire On 14 January 2016 at 10:29, Nivard Ovington via <lanark@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hi Celia > > Light blue touch paper? > > Not at all, at least it wasn't my intention in any way, I mean speak > properly in the accepted and general usage sense > > Meaning speak clearly with little or no accent so the majority of people > can understand what that person is saying wherever that person is > watching or listening from > > Apart from the left wing BBC and regional accents, in business if you > were trying to get on and spoke with say a thick (meaning strong) > Geordie accent you are *less* likely to get on than someone of similar > ability who spoke without an accent > (there will always be exceptions to the rule of course but in the main) > > Its just plain common sense > > I do not include myself in the "speaking proper" bracket as I have a > Leicestershire accent, *I* don't think I do :-) but others certainly do > > I have no problem with speaking to others day to day in whatever accent > or dialect they may have but for some things plain understandable speech > is preferred, at least by me anyway > > I don't particularly mind regional accents for reading the news in the > region they are from etc but prefer plain clear speech and I do wish > they would put newsreaders back behind a desk, I hate them wandering all > over the studio, they always look uncomfortable reporting whilst > standing there > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 14/01/2016 09:28, Celia Renshaw via wrote: >> "Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lighting of the blue touch-paper? >> >> I've been very happy in recent years to hear 'regional' accents on the >> BBC - the programme announcers, local news journalists and so forth - >> so if the BBC is anything to go by, as it always was (we used to talk >> of BBC English), then regional accents ARE speaking properly these >> days :) >> >> Celia Renshaw >> Chesterfield, Derbyshire > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. > > You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Aids would be a waste of time & money. He does NOT want them & would not pay the price. ----Original Message----- From: Maisie Egger via Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 11:12 AM To: LANARK@rootsweb.com Subject: [Lanark] "Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lighting ofthe blue touch-paper? Celia, and just what does this mean --- "Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lighting of the blue touch-paper? --- and here I’ve been carping on about the Glasgow patter being unintelligible for those not conversant with it. I had to go to Google to get an understanding of the expression only to discover that it is a colloquialism...so if you’re not in the know, you won’t ‘get it!’ "Touchpaper" is paper impregnated with saltpetre (potassium or sodium nitrate; a. k. a. "nitre"), and used as a fuse for explosives, especially fireworks. Lighting it initiates the process leading to the explosion. To "light the blue touch paper" is simply a colloquial expression meaning "to kick things off" or "to get things started" Maisie ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Celia, and just what does this mean --- "Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lighting of the blue touch-paper? --- and here I’ve been carping on about the Glasgow patter being unintelligible for those not conversant with it. I had to go to Google to get an understanding of the expression only to discover that it is a colloquialism...so if you’re not in the know, you won’t ‘get it!’ "Touchpaper" is paper impregnated with saltpetre (potassium or sodium nitrate; a. k. a. "nitre"), and used as a fuse for explosives, especially fireworks. Lighting it initiates the process leading to the explosion. To "light the blue touch paper" is simply a colloquial expression meaning "to kick things off" or "to get things started" Maisie

Hi Celia Light blue touch paper? Not at all, at least it wasn't my intention in any way, I mean speak properly in the accepted and general usage sense Meaning speak clearly with little or no accent so the majority of people can understand what that person is saying wherever that person is watching or listening from Apart from the left wing BBC and regional accents, in business if you were trying to get on and spoke with say a thick (meaning strong) Geordie accent you are *less* likely to get on than someone of similar ability who spoke without an accent (there will always be exceptions to the rule of course but in the main) Its just plain common sense I do not include myself in the "speaking proper" bracket as I have a Leicestershire accent, *I* don't think I do :-) but others certainly do I have no problem with speaking to others day to day in whatever accent or dialect they may have but for some things plain understandable speech is preferred, at least by me anyway I don't particularly mind regional accents for reading the news in the region they are from etc but prefer plain clear speech and I do wish they would put newsreaders back behind a desk, I hate them wandering all over the studio, they always look uncomfortable reporting whilst standing there Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 14/01/2016 09:28, Celia Renshaw via wrote: > "Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lighting of the blue touch-paper? > > I've been very happy in recent years to hear 'regional' accents on the > BBC - the programme announcers, local news journalists and so forth - > so if the BBC is anything to go by, as it always was (we used to talk > of BBC English), then regional accents ARE speaking properly these > days :) > > Celia Renshaw > Chesterfield, Derbyshire --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Iain, Exactly, I compare my American born and reared children who have never had to make an adjustment in how they speak in or out of the classroom or the business world to the way I had to do ‘vocal gymnastics’ to fit in when living in Glasgow. When we lived in such as Ohio, Missouri and Wisconsin, as well as ‘up and down’ California, there was no need for a change in how my children spoke. However, I am sure if they had lived in a more defined regional speech areas, such as the South, they might have had to become more than bi-lingual. Funny thing is that my aunt lived in Hillington (245 Tweedsmuir Road) and her son’s Glasgow dialect was different from the north-east end of Glasgow where I mostly grew up. Growing up in Glasgow, if you were attuned, you’d just know how to adjust how you spoke. In down to earth Glasgow you wouldn’t have dared tried to ‘act it’ or above yourself if the people you associated with were ‘jist ordinary folks.’ One of my girlfriends used to drive me round the bend when she tried to rise above herself by asking a neighbour if he was enjoying working in his garding! Maybe the ‘ing suffixes made her think that garden had to have the ‘ing ending. Silly girl! Having ‘knocked’ the Glaswegian patter, I must say that when I come across a person from Glasgow here in California, it’s like a splash of cold, refreshing water, for you just KNOW that you’re listening to a down-to-earth Glesga person with no pretenses. Maisie From: Iain McKenzie Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 8:14 AM To: Maisie Egger ; lanark@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Lanark] Glasgow sound has stayed the same Maisie, Being trilingual, you were not alone, according to a programme on BBC Radio 4. Linguists have discovered that it is quite usual for teenagers to have five versions of their language that they use; typically one for use at home, one for the classroom and one for the playground, plus others. They did not mix them up. My memory at Hillington primary school was that you could not tell much about a person by the speech they used in class, but once you were in the playground you could almost tell which street they lived in by the nuances of their playground speech. Thank you for starting this thread. I'm sure it is one we all have a view on. Iain McKenzie On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 12:44 AM, Maisie Egger via <lanark@rootsweb.com> wrote: Researchers say that the Glaswegian sound has stayed the same, The Jan/Feb 2016 issue of The Highlander magazine is a bit more informative than this Google link, though the research is by the same person: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/619869/Future-Scottish-accents-sounding-good The Highlander magazine heading: “Scottish Accents Endure While England’s Disappear” is maybe a bit of a glittering generality as English friends and relatives seem to have the same speech pattern as they started out with. To me, the Glasgow ‘wye o’ speakin’ is ‘murder polis’ and has indeed not changed a bit! Noted before, since coming to North American, I have had to train myself to soften the Glasgow way of speaking as no one could understand me, yet I did not consider myself rough spoken. Being an office worker one had to smooth the edges off a bit when answering the phone. As a young office girl I was tri-lingual(!): the house speech where my mother would not tolerate even acceptable Scottish words---standard English in this house, please; business office lingo, then street patter if one were associating with others outside of one’s normal purlieu. A little tip off would be if a young teenage girl from another street would ask if you went to the jiggin’. Jiggin’? No, you’d answer politely, I’m too young to be allowed to go to (the) dancing. Researchers at the University of Glasgow concluded from audio recordings dating from WWI that English regional accents are becoming more homogenized than Scots accents. The assumption was that traditional regional accents throughout the U.K. were being softened and dying out. The contention is that Glaswegian is less liable to change than what is going on in areas of England. Whether from a rough part of Glasgow or the more refined west end, it would appear, according to this research, that all levels of the Glasgow way of speaking have been maintained without too much change. Again, it all depends on where one lives in Glasgow and how a particular area affects the speech pattern. If one is a bit more refined one could be ‘accused’ of speaking with a Kelvinside accent (west side of Glasgow). Also, if one were university educated, Glasgow or otherwise, it is almost a foregone conclusion that the edges have been taken off the typical-sounding Glaswegian’s voice. One of my mother’s sisters attended Glasgow University and sounded so much more ‘refined,’ shall we say, than her four sisters. To quote “Ah’m no’ a herry fae Ferry Street!” --- I am not a hairy (tough, loud, mouthy person) person from Fairy Street! Maisie ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. 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To Celia and Nivard particularly: In a college English class I took from an Iranian, he emphasised that every single person on the face of the earth speaks a different dialect. Only those who are foreigners who do not speak the native tongue have an accent. Native born people in the U.K., then, speak with different dialects. Having said that, the inflection of the English tongue, plus the particular vocabulary used by those who would eschew basic English, would lead a foreigner to believe that some Glaswegians, as an example, speak a different tongue with a very strong accent. Years and years ago, when I was a child, there was a 'wee bit of a stramash' when the BBC hired Wilfred Pickles, a Yorkshireman, as their first regionally accented announcer. It was refreshing to listen to him rather than the bland 'Received Pronunciation' trained BBC voices. He would insert some Yorkshire idioms, easily understood within context. Here in the USA (but not so much in Canada), some regional dialects are very difficult to understand. As with BBC trained voices, some media announcers in the USA have voice training to present a 'blander' Mid-West type speech pattern. A person from the Deep South would have to take the edge off this dialect if he/she wanted to reach a broader audience. Me, with an unintelligible Glesga accent to most people on this side of the Atlantic, had the nerve to correct my husband's attractive-sounding Long Island, New York dialect when he would stick an 'r' at the end of idea and law, to become idear and lawr...incidentally, in some areas of England this is also an inflection. After over 60 years on this side of the world, though not Americanised, I am more readily understood, with compliments that I have a very nice 'voice!' Better that than the glazed look from those who hadn't a clue what my utterances were when I first came here. Of California's over 30 million native-born residents, there is barely a discernable difference in the speech pattern, though in the northern part of the state there are those who say warsh for wash and deesh for dish (maybe Pennsyvalnia transplants!). As noted, each person speaks with a different dialect: one of my daughters pronounces the word doll as dull. I'm Mam to her but Mom to the other. To my son, his pronunciation is somewhere in between! Glasgow people, and anyone else who has a strong regional dialect, do well communicating among their own. The difficulty lies in communicating with those not attuned to a particularly strong dialect. Two Glasgow classmates had elocution lessons, but as adults the lessons must not have 'stuck' as they still spoke like the rest of us....pure dead Glesga! Here's tae us wha's like us, dampt the yin, an' they're a' deid! Maisie From: Nivard Ovington via Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 1:18 AM To: lanark@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Lanark] Glasgow sound has stayed the same Hi Maisie When I read articles like this I do wonder if the people making them up actually set foot outside of their ivory towers, be they in Glasgow Uni or London The regional accents are alive and well as far as I can can tell Whereas in London its just a mixture of languages often foreign ones mixed with English Some people have always changed the way they speak "to get on", its just a fact of life, no matter what some may say You are clearly more likely to get on in most jobs if you speak properly Perhaps this is a slow news period and they are needing to fill column? Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 14/01/2016 00:44, Maisie Egger via wrote: > Researchers say that the Glaswegian sound has stayed the same, > > The Jan/Feb 2016 issue of The Highlander magazine is a bit more > informative than this Google link, though the research is by the same > person: > > http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/619869/Future-Scottish-accents-sounding-good > > The Highlander magazine heading: “Scottish Accents Endure While > England’s Disappear” is maybe a bit of a glittering generality as > English friends and relatives seem to have the same speech pattern as > they started out with. > > To me, the Glasgow ‘wye o’ speakin’ is ‘murder polis’ and has indeed > not changed a bit! Noted before, since coming to North American, I > have had to train myself to soften the Glasgow way of speaking as no > one could understand me, yet I did not consider myself rough spoken. > Being an office worker one had to smooth the edges off a bit when > answering the phone.

"Speak properly" Nivard? Is that a deliberate lighting of the blue touch-paper? I've been very happy in recent years to hear 'regional' accents on the BBC - the programme announcers, local news journalists and so forth - so if the BBC is anything to go by, as it always was (we used to talk of BBC English), then regional accents ARE speaking properly these days :) Celia Renshaw Chesterfield, Derbyshire On 14 January 2016 at 09:18, Nivard Ovington via <lanark@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hi Maisie > > When I read articles like this I do wonder if the people making them up > actually set foot outside of their ivory towers, be they in Glasgow Uni > or London > > The regional accents are alive and well as far as I can can tell > > Whereas in London its just a mixture of languages often foreign ones > mixed with English > > Some people have always changed the way they speak "to get on", its just > a fact of life, no matter what some may say > > You are clearly more likely to get on in most jobs if you speak properly > > Perhaps this is a slow news period and they are needing to fill column? > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 14/01/2016 00:44, Maisie Egger via wrote: >> Researchers say that the Glaswegian sound has stayed the same, >> >> The Jan/Feb 2016 issue of The Highlander magazine is a bit more >> informative than this Google link, though the research is by the same >> person: >> >> http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/619869/Future-Scottish-accents-sounding-good >> >> The Highlander magazine heading: “Scottish Accents Endure While >> England’s Disappear” is maybe a bit of a glittering generality as >> English friends and relatives seem to have the same speech pattern as >> they started out with. >> >> To me, the Glasgow ‘wye o’ speakin’ is ‘murder polis’ and has indeed >> not changed a bit! Noted before, since coming to North American, I >> have had to train myself to soften the Glasgow way of speaking as no >> one could understand me, yet I did not consider myself rough spoken. >> Being an office worker one had to smooth the edges off a bit when >> answering the phone. > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as LANARK@Rootsweb.com. > > You may contact the List Admin at lanark-admin@rootsweb.com or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message