I'll do it Mary. I've gotten so much help from the people on this list, and one good turn deserves another. Jeanne In a message dated 8/17/2010 5:49:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, swaynem@btinternet.com writes: Would anyone who has access to either the 1891 or 1901 census for the Edinburgh area, kindly do a look up for me

Hi Archie, It was named after a British victory at a place of that name in South America (18th C) at which the Dalrymple family member who was the Feudal owner of the Cleland Estates was a commanding officer ! (Just as Waterloo ( near Wishaw ) and other places were named after the Napoleonic Campaign victory - by one of the Stewarts of Coltness ) G Russell

> *         Agnes is a > French-based word.  The "g" would be silent (or > mouthed), similar to the one in "sign".  A final "s" > in French is not > pronounced.  So this name would have been pronounced > as "Anna".  I don't think so. The name Agnes is not, apparently, directly related to French 'agneau' which means 'lamb'. It is of Greek origin. I have two French friends named Agnes. There is a grave accent on the 'e' which I cannot type here and the stress is on the second syllable, not the first. Both of them pronounce the final 's', making the name sound like "ann-YESS" All the various Agneses I know in Scotland pronounce the name as it is spelled, but with the stress on the first syllable, making it "AGG-niss" In spite of the completely different origins of the names Ann/e/a and Agnes, they are occasionally used in place of one another. They share the diminutives Nan and Nancy. See www.whatsinaname.net Anne

> Is it possible that a couple will record their Marriage > Banns in one parish > and then get married in another?  Yes and no. If a couple live in different parishes before marriage, the banns have to be proclaimed in both parishes. The parish register, strictly speaking, records the proclamation of banns rather than necessarily the actual marriage ceremony, so you get what looks like two marriage entries. > I have another Proclamation where the  bride's name is > Ann but she's Agnes > on everything else so I guess the name could  be > explained.  Ann and Agnes are occasionally used interchangeably. See www.whatsinaname.net HTH Anne

All this talk of OMOA has brought to the surface again a question which has been niggling at me for years. Does anyone know the origin of the name ? Archie Gilbert

Jeanne, The answer to your main point is that if the Groom and Bride lived in different parishes, then the banns would be recorded in each. I have the original banns for my Grandparents, one recorded in Cramond Parish and one in Inveresk parish. Archie Gilbert. ----- Original Message ----- From: <TwoSides22@aol.com> To: <lanark@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:35 PM Subject: [Lanark] Marriage Banns > Good morning Lanarkists, > > Is it possible that a couple will record their Marriage Banns in one > parish > and then get married in another? I'm researching Thomas MCGILL and > ELISABETH GREIG. I've also seen her as Betty, and the surname as GREG and > GREGG. I've got the birth/christening records for the children and she is > always some combination of these names. I'm running into a problem with > the > marriage record. I can't find an Elisabeth GREIG marrying Thomas MCGILL > but I > do find a Marrion. And to make matters worse, 2 parishes are listed. > These are the results from Scotlands People: > > 05/05/1780 MCGILL THOMAS MARRION GREG/FR566 M COCKPEN /MIDLOTHIAN 676/ > 0020 0257 > 19/05/1780 MCGILL THOMAS MARRION GREG/FR2209 M DALKEITH /MIDLOTHIAN 683/ > 0070 0075 > > I have another Proclamation where the bride's name is Ann but she's Agnes > on everything else so I guess the name could be explained. Or it's the > wrong people entirely. This would be the right date though, as their > first > child was born in 1780 and I do know that the groom lived in Midlothian, > at > least at some point. > > Thanks. > Jeanne > > ------------------------------- > > LANARK, SCOTLAND MAILING LIST > > > LIST TOPIC: The discussion and research of genealogy or history > information pertaining to Lanark, Scotland at any point in its history. > > WHEN REPLYING to any list post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message before you post any reply > > LIST INFORMATION PAGE: Contact the List Admin at > lanark-admin@rootsweb.com; or to search the list archives, get information > on subscribing or unsubscribing, or to obtain other useful information to > help you use the list more effectively, please click on the following link > to the list information page online: > > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Resending this message as it has not appeared since I sent it three hours ago. Begin forwarded message: > From: Carolyn Perkes <cperkes@videotron.ca> > Date: August 17, 2010 12:36:43 PM GMT-04:00 > To: lanark@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Lanark] Marriage Banns > > Ann is a nickname for Agnes. I think there are several nicknames for > Agnes, including Nancy. My grandmother was named Agnes but she went > by Nessie. > > This Connecticut State Library site has a very useful list for 18th > and 19th century nicknames and proper names. American, but I believe > given the time period, in many cases usage would be similar to UK > usage. > > http://www.cslib.org/nickname.htm > > Carolyn > On 17-Aug-10, at 9:35 AM, TwoSides22@aol.com wrote: > >> Good morning Lanarkists, >> >> I >> >> I have another Proclamation where the bride's name is Ann but >> she's Agnes >> on everything else so I guess the name could be explained. Or >> it's the >> wrong people entirely. This would be the right date though, as >> their first >> child was born in 1780 and I do know that the groom lived in >> Midlothian, at >> least at some point. >> >> Thanks. >> Jeanne >> >> -------------------------------

Resending since my message has not appeared since I sent it three hours ago. Begin forwarded message: > From: Carolyn Perkes <cperkes@videotron.ca> > Date: August 17, 2010 12:27:55 PM GMT-04:00 > To: lanark@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Lanark] McMunn - Steel - Wharrie - Simpson > > Thank you Bob! > She definitely looks like a good candidate, particularly since one > of her grandsons was named James Steel Wharrie. > > Carolyn > On 16-Aug-10, at 10:21 PM, hiflyte wrote: > >> Found only this entry, no others in these files >> >> A look in the FHC films in and round these years may give up some >> data. >> >> Bob >> Cdn >> ------------------------ >> STEEL, Elisabeth >> Christening >> Gender: Female >> Birth Date: 15 Oct 1820 >> Christening Date: 30 Oct 1820 >> Recorded in: Lesmahagow, Lanarkshire, Scotland >> Father: James STEEL >> Mother: Bethea WILSON >> Source: FHL Film 1066597 >> Dates: 1692 - 1844 >> ========================= >>

Mary, Here is some information from Ancestry.com - the 1891 Census.  Might be your person. Name: Jamesina Murray Age:  7 Estimated birth year:  abt 1884 Relationship:  daughter Father's name:  David Mother's name:  Janet Gender:  Female Where born:  Temple, Peebles Shire Registration Number:  698B Registration district:  Stobhill Civil Parish:  Temple County:  Midlothian Address:  McNeill Bdgs Occupation:  Scholar ED:    1 Household Schedule Number:  13;     Line:  11;      Roll:  CSSCT1891-369 Household Members:  David Murray (age 40); Janet Murray (39); David Murray (15); George Murray (12); Jessie Murray (10);  Jamesina Murray (7);  Thomas Murray (5); Chalmers Murray (3); John Murray (1). Hope this helps. Jean ________________________________ From: Mary Swayne <swaynem@btinternet.com> To: LANARK@rootsweb.com Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 2:38:21 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] 1891 Census Would anyone who has access to either the 1891 or 1901 census for the Edinburgh area, kindly do a look up for me I am looking for a Jamisina Murray born 1883. Her parents would be a David Murray and Janet Dickson. Mary

Tony, Great to see your email re FLORENCE/FLORANCE families. I have a FLORENCE link as well... I took a look at your Ancestry file as per below: a.. ID: I1582 a.. Name: Isobel FLORENCE a.. Sex: F a.. Birth: 1790 in Auchterless, Abd, Sct 1 2 3 a.. Baptism: 12 FEB 1790 Auchterless, Abd, Sct 4 5 a.. Note: not sure this right Isobel but expect had illigitimate son John by father = CHRISTIE there was a marriage for an Isabella to a John STRACHAN 1811, Old Meldrum. I have an Isabel FLORENCE born 1792, Auchterless, Aberdeen she appears in 1841 (under md name) and 1851,1861 and 1871 under her maiden name. The above note made by you was interesting.... I had made the presumption that the father of James CHRISTIE would have been a Mr CHRISTIE!!! Isabel md John GEDDES in 1821, Auchterless. Pam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Christiansen" <teecee100@hotmail.com> To: <lanark@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:53 AM Subject: [Lanark] FLORENCE / FLORANCE FAMILIES OF SCOTLAND >I have been researching the above names for many years and have a database >with around 7000 names. Almost all of the FLORENCEs of Scotland originated >from one or two FLORENCE families who lived in Fyvie, in the early 1600's. > >>From there FLORENCE's spread throughout Aberdeenshire, Scotland and then >>the world. > > I have been in contact with many other researchers over the years but > periodically post to this list to see if the are any newbies or indeed > anyone with new information to add to the database. I am happy to check > the database for anyone or to provide descendant charts or gedcoms and > other information which I have. > > The database can be seen at World Connect. > > http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=florencescot > > Tony Christiansen, Great Barrier Island, New Zealand. teecee@ihug.co.nz > > ------------------------------- > > LANARK, SCOTLAND MAILING LIST > > > LIST TOPIC: The discussion and research of genealogy or history > information pertaining to Lanark, Scotland at any point in its history. > > WHEN REPLYING to any list post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message before you post any reply > > LIST INFORMATION PAGE: Contact the List Admin at > lanark-admin@rootsweb.com; or to search the list archives, get information > on subscribing or unsubscribing, or to obtain other useful information to > help you use the list more effectively, please click on the following link > to the list information page online: > > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Ann is a nickname for Agnes. I think there are several nicknames for Agnes, including Nancy. My grandmother was named Agnes but she went by Nessie. This Connecticut State Library site has a very useful list for 18th and 19th century nicknames and proper names. American, but I believe given the time period, in many cases usage would be similar to UK usage. http://www.cslib.org/nickname.htm Carolyn On 17-Aug-10, at 9:35 AM, TwoSides22@aol.com wrote: > Good morning Lanarkists, > > I > > I have another Proclamation where the bride's name is Ann but she's > Agnes > on everything else so I guess the name could be explained. Or it's > the > wrong people entirely. This would be the right date though, as > their first > child was born in 1780 and I do know that the groom lived in > Midlothian, at > least at some point. > > Thanks. > Jeanne > > -------------------------------

Thank you Bob! She definitely looks like a good candidate, particularly since one of her grandsons was named James Steel Wharrie. Carolyn On 16-Aug-10, at 10:21 PM, hiflyte wrote: > Found only this entry, no others in these files > > A look in the FHC films in and round these years may give up some > data. > > Bob > Cdn > ------------------------ > STEEL, Elisabeth > Christening > Gender: Female > Birth Date: 15 Oct 1820 > Christening Date: 30 Oct 1820 > Recorded in: Lesmahagow, Lanarkshire, Scotland > Father: James STEEL > Mother: Bethea WILSON > Source: FHL Film 1066597 > Dates: 1692 - 1844 > ========================= >

Here's part of the Omoa timeline, explaining the name's origin on widipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleland,_North_Lanarkshire 1789: Colonel William Dalrymple (the second son of Sir William Dalrymple, third baronet of Cousland, and the nephew of Captain Hew Dalrymple), distinguishes himself by helping to capture both the Fort of San Fernando de Omoa and the port town of Omoa, in Honduras, South America (see William Dalrymple (British Army officer) and Battle of San Fernando de Omoa). 1797-1866: Omoa Iron Works is erected on Cleland estate by Colonel William Dalrymple on returning to civilian life. Colonel Dalrymple's uncle, Hew, left him the Fordal estate in Mid-Lothian, and Cleland estate in Bothwell and Shotts parishes. ----- Original Message ----- From: "archie gilbert" <agillbert@tiscali.co.uk> To: <LANARK@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:52 AM Subject: [Lanark] OMOA > All this talk of OMOA has brought to the surface again a question which > has been niggling at me for years. Does anyone know the origin of the name > ? > > Archie Gilbert > > ------------------------------- > > LANARK, SCOTLAND MAILING LIST > > > LIST TOPIC: The discussion and research of genealogy or history > information pertaining to Lanark, Scotland at any point in its history. > > WHEN REPLYING to any list post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message before you post any reply > > LIST INFORMATION PAGE: Contact the List Admin at > lanark-admin@rootsweb.com; or to search the list archives, get information > on subscribing or unsubscribing, or to obtain other useful information to > help you use the list more effectively, please click on the following link > to the list information page online: > > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > LANARK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks Ken and Archie. It's interesting to know how they morphed Agnes into Ann, and that it wasn't done just to confuse me 150 years later. There isn't even a chance the same was done for Elisabeth and Marrion but I'm hoping I'll find it was the same person who chose to use a middle name at some point. I'm trying to resist grinding it to fit even though it sometimes works with crossword puzzles. ;-) Jeanne In a message dated 8/17/2010 11:29:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, agillbert@tiscali.co.uk writes: Jeanne, The answer to your main point is that if the Groom and Bride lived in different parishes, then the banns would be recorded in each.

Good morning Lanarkists, Is it possible that a couple will record their Marriage Banns in one parish and then get married in another? I'm researching Thomas MCGILL and ELISABETH GREIG. I've also seen her as Betty, and the surname as GREG and GREGG. I've got the birth/christening records for the children and she is always some combination of these names. I'm running into a problem with the marriage record. I can't find an Elisabeth GREIG marrying Thomas MCGILL but I do find a Marrion. And to make matters worse, 2 parishes are listed. These are the results from Scotlands People: 05/05/1780 MCGILL THOMAS MARRION GREG/FR566 M COCKPEN /MIDLOTHIAN 676/ 0020 0257 19/05/1780 MCGILL THOMAS MARRION GREG/FR2209 M DALKEITH /MIDLOTHIAN 683/ 0070 0075 I have another Proclamation where the bride's name is Ann but she's Agnes on everything else so I guess the name could be explained. Or it's the wrong people entirely. This would be the right date though, as their first child was born in 1780 and I do know that the groom lived in Midlothian, at least at some point. Thanks. Jeanne

I have been researching the above names for many years and have a database with around 7000 names. Almost all of the FLORENCEs of Scotland originated from one or two FLORENCE families who lived in Fyvie, in the early 1600's. >From there FLORENCE's spread throughout Aberdeenshire, Scotland and then the world. I have been in contact with many other researchers over the years but periodically post to this list to see if the are any newbies or indeed anyone with new information to add to the database. I am happy to check the database for anyone or to provide descendant charts or gedcoms and other information which I have. The database can be seen at World Connect. http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=florencescot Tony Christiansen, Great Barrier Island, New Zealand. teecee@ihug.co.nz

A few points, for what they may be worth: :-) * Marriage banns were frequently posted in both the bride's parish and the groom's. The two you show below are almost certainly for the same persons, and give you clues to parishes to search in * I have not seen Elizabeth and Marion equated * Agnes is a French-based word. The "g" would be silent (or mouthed), similar to the one in "sign". A final "s" in French is not pronounced. So this name would have been pronounced as "Anna". I have frequently found a woman who was known alternatively as Ann, Anne, Anna or Agnes Ken Harrison North Vancouver, Canada -----Original Message----- From: lanark-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:lanark-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of TwoSides22@aol.com Sent: August 17, 2010 6:35 AM To: lanark@rootsweb.com Subject: [Lanark] Marriage Banns Good morning Lanarkists, Is it possible that a couple will record their Marriage Banns in one parish and then get married in another? I'm researching Thomas MCGILL and ELISABETH GREIG. I've also seen her as Betty, and the surname as GREG and GREGG. I've got the birth/christening records for the children and she is always some combination of these names. I'm running into a problem with the marriage record. I can't find an Elisabeth GREIG marrying Thomas MCGILL but I do find a Marrion. And to make matters worse, 2 parishes are listed. These are the results from Scotlands People: 05/05/1780 MCGILL THOMAS MARRION GREG/FR566 M COCKPEN /MIDLOTHIAN 676/ 0020 0257 19/05/1780 MCGILL THOMAS MARRION GREG/FR2209 M DALKEITH /MIDLOTHIAN 683/ 0070 0075 I have another Proclamation where the bride's name is Ann but she's Agnes on everything else so I guess the name could be explained. Or it's the wrong people entirely. This would be the right date though, as their first child was born in 1780 and I do know that the groom lived in Midlothian, at least at some point. Thanks. Jeanne -------------------------------

I was a bit confused by the description given for pitheadman as the Scottish mining site suggests it was a specific role, not a catch all term for surface worker. They give the following defnition from a 1886 glossary of Scottish mining terms, and also defines the person who kept track of hutches on behalf of the miners as a check weigher: PITHEADMAN, The man in charge of the unloading of the cages and weighing of the mineral at a pithead. CHECK WEIGHER, One who takes account of the mineral raised on behalf of the miners ; a justiceman. There is also a detailed description of the job on this page. It also describes other jobs which I have found really useful in my own research: http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/13.html Regards dawn > From: cperkes@videotron.ca > To: lanark@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:44:02 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Lanark] McMunn - Steel - Wharrie - Simpson > > Thank you very much for the detailed description of the job of coal > Pithead Man, and the context! > > Best regards, > > Carolyn > > On 15-Aug-10, at 2:55 AM, G Russell wrote: > > > A 'pithead man' is a surface worker - (...) > > > > G Russell > > Carluke, S. Lanarkshire > >

Hello again, Judy, An interesting point .... but the Parish Clerk at that time would distinguish the two places ... Cleland ( itself ) is a slightly later settlement than Omoa ( the original 'village' ) forming around the railway Station (once called Omoa Station) and extending towards Bellside. Modern 'Cleland' is taken to include Omoa, Cleland (Omoa New Town) and Bellside nowadays ... The Iron Works and its associated housing (Omoa Square, mostly ) sat slightly to the north west of the centre of the 'New Town' (Cleland) on the side of the Tilland Burn which is, rather unfortunately, the Parish Boundary between Shotts Parish and Bothwell Parish ... and between the set of two railway lines (Caledonian railay Co. - 1840s). You can see the area ( but remember, you need to be aware of the Parish boundary ) at the National Library of Scotland Map Collection website and scroll through the 1st edition (1850s) series of large scale maps to view the Ironworks site and Omoa / Cleland villages ... You can also see aerial pictures on Google Earth ( look for Omoa Road, Cleland ) where the Ironworks site is clearly visible to the side of the burn, just south of the road between Omoa (Cleland) and Newarthill Road to the east of the remains of Cleland Estate and Golf Course. The old railway track (bed) is still seen ... Funnily enough, one of my research targets is the Omoa site and the related Cleland Pottery ( formerly Omoa Fireclay works ) , Omoa Cottage and Mr John Agnew ( later of Carluke ! ) I was at school with one of the Russells of Omoa !!! George Russell Carluke, S. Lanarkshire

It was pointed out to me offlist that I did not provide enough information about my Steel line. I am interested in an Elis/zabeth Steel, aged 50 in the 1871 UK Census for Glasgow, born 30 October 1820, Lesmahagow, Lanark, possibly the daughter of James Steel and Bethea Wilson, married 24 Sep. 1819, Lesmahagow. As far as I can tell, she had an illegitimate son, who was ultimately named Thomas Wharrie. The 1871 Census entry has her as Mother, aged 50 living at 29 Killermont St. Glasgow with Thomas Wharrie aged 27 Warehouseman's assistant, Lesmahagow, Lanark. In 1873, Thomas Wharrie married Jessie Polson. His parents: mother Elizabet Steel. If anyone has an interest in these people, I would be pleased to hear from you. Carolyn On 14-Aug-10, at 9:50 PM, Carolyn Perkes wrote: context snipped, given list rules.