Morning Maisie and everyone else, Properly used, combining DNA testing and genealogical research can be extremely beneficial. Searching the male line combined with the 37 or 67 marker test can assist in jumping the hurdle of the brick wall so many of us walk into. In Clan Sutherland we have a written genealogy covering some 25-30 generations in Scotland (depending on which branch of the family is being considered). Within the 70 or so participants thus far, one group of 14 representing 20% is already dominating the results. That group, the Moray Firth Group match at some level and 10 match at 99+% over 20-24 generations. These matches are in relation to one group member who has the full written genealogy placing him in the 25th generation since Freskyn our founder in the early 1100s. For me as Genealogist, the task is now finding out which of around a dozen men on the main tree are the hitherto unknown ancestor of each of the group members. The DNA results assist me by indicating how closely most of these men are to one another using the TIP reports which produce % likelihood of a single shared male ancestor in ranges of 4 generations. Using the results for men whom I know are related and can be demonstrated on paper, I use as a rough! guide the 4 generations after the TIP shows 67% or more. In all cases this points to a group within 8-12 or 16-20 generations. A by-product of this is that we have discovered that an entire group of Clan Douglas men are an exact match and sure enough Freskyn and Willem De Duglis, founder of the Douglas clan were cousins. If the test is done under the FTDNA project, each member gets an account and can check matches across the entire project of many thousands of participants as well as specific members of specified groups. Our dominant Sutherland group are Flemish in origins. The second most prominent group who all share ancestry based in the Parish of Clyne (the village of Brora in Sutherland) are of native Celtic stock. There are also a handful who seem to have Scandinavian/North German roots. We also have the situation that 2 men who on paper are said to be 8th cousins cannot be related in the male line at all because they have different Haplogroups which is physically impossible IF they share a common male ancestor. Broadening the range of people tested will confirm which of two has a male ancestor who received some "assistance" in producing his family. Regards, Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisie Egger Sent: 08 October 2013 03:00 To: Cliff. Johnston; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Cliff, I was contacted by a woman who is the DNA coordinator, shall we say, of Ards Peninsula, Co. Antrim/Co. Down, Northern Ireland, where she says my surname Clint has its roots. She is the one who encouraged me to have a DNA test (brother’s swab) submitted to determine my roots as she was convinced that it was of an old Irish Celtic link. I think not as I believe the name, meaning hard, rocky surface, or such like, has its roots in Denmark or elsewhere in Scandinavia. The Vikings left a huge footprint in York, where a lot of archaeological excavations have been going on for years. There is a wonderful Jorvik Viking museum/center near York Cathedral. (It was my decision to go for the lowest DNA marker, by the way, though she recommended the 37 (?) one.) When I was researching my surname in past years ago, I found that the majority by this name did indeed come from York. There were a few spread around the rest of England and a handful or so in Northern Ireland. I couldn’t find any by the name in Dublin, another Viking historical area, or the rest of the Republic of Ireland. In Scotland, the name is an endangered species, few even in Southwest Scotland where I began to trace my lot in the 1700s. Much as I have no proof (as yet), I’m almost willing to bet that my great-grandfather was “seeded” by this dastardly fellow whose father was from York who seems to have sired two children that we know of, and maybe another two, sans a ring on the finger of any of the women he seemingly seduced...or maybe he didn’t. Maybe he was so full of charm, they fell for him! The so-called Celtic connection for my name is spurious, I think, and I’m hanging on to the notion that it definitely had Danish/Scandinavian/Viking roots. Does it help any that my father, his cousin and his mother (my father’s aunt), a nephew and his son, my sister, and I to some degree, all had ginger/red hair, fresh complexions (freckles!) and blue eyes. Does this bespeak a Scandinavian bloodline? One of the Lanark listers right this minute has made a trip by train from the north of England to York, Borthwick Institute, to see if she can in any way trace this Clint family that I could possibly be related to to the “parentless” great-grandfather. She is a phenomenal researcher and has done so much to help me get to the bottom of the elusive parentage. If the Kirk Session, Edinburgh, where she is hoping to go to next, does not have a record of my great-grandfather’s parentage, then I think that is the end of the line and I may as well give up the ghost...except for DNA testing. If I win the lottery...then Cliff you would have to interpret the results for me as I am as thick as a plank in this regard. Unfortunately, the Kirk Session records in Edinburgh are not online and one would require to go in person or hire someone to do research for you. Maisie ------------------------------------------------ Maisie, It sounds as if you may have tested as Celtic or even Anglo-Saxon, although my money is on Celtic. Some of the Celtic lines in the Isles are a nightmare of a puzzle to sort out as so many of them adopted the surnames of others, and in addition they were very mobile. This accounts for the mubblie-jumblie list that you received with no surnames matching yours. I've seen this before. Of course I only hear about the difficult ones to sort out, and I hasten to add that I can do almost nothing to help in these instances. I've got my hands full as it is with my own line. Don't give up on the one down in York. Follow up. You may receive a great treat. Then you'll be glad that you had your family Y-DNA tested :-) As for further Y-DNA test upgrades - probably not worthwhile at this point unless you received a list with a lot matches with no mutations. What is a lot? That depends upon the size of your pocketbook. I certainly would consider an upgrade to 32 markers, but I wouldn't go for any more than that. That will sort out some of the 12-markers matches and leave you with a meaty fillet to chew on :-) Good hunting, Cliff. From: Maisie Egger <[email protected]> To: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Cliff, How I admire your “smarts” to untangle the different levels of DNA testing! I can talk the hind legs off a donkey, but my brain freezes at trying to unscramble the different levels of DNA testing, though you did your best to give a clear understanding. DNA testing is really not essential to me: there is no huge heritance among relatives in contention or the birthright of this or that human, and so on, so as I remarked, I’ll just stick with the “tree” plunking names/relatives*** on the different branches as they are found. I subscribed to the 12-marker at the “bargain price” of $39, but should have saved my money as all I’ve got out of it so far are lists of meaningless names, not one of which shares my surname. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to such as I who does not know which end is up where DNA testing is concerned. ***HOWEVER, there is one instance where DNA would be very useful where there is a possible family connection with its roots in York, one of whose descendants is still living in southwest Scotland (a direct descendant) and then my own male relatives in Lanarkshire whose DNA could be checked to see if one is from the other, but I am too inept about following through on this, plus the expense. I’d rather use the money to hire someone to paint the bathroom! Maisie ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cliff. Johnston Maisie, We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-) As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA. They have the largest and best support system. Period. Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only): 12-markers test: just whets your appetite for more testing. About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ] Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes. 25-markers test: about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-) 32-markers test: helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections. A decent test, but has too many gaps. 67-markers test: the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up. 111-markers test: we are still working out the value of this upgrade. So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations. If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful. Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA. This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison. This takes more time in addition to more money. Good hunting, Cliff. From: Maisie Egger [email protected] I subscribed to the cheapest offering for DNA testing for my side, with my brother giving the sample. I don't really know what I expected, but was disappointed that all I got was a list of names from all over the shop, with not one sharing my surname.... ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Mark, You seem to be our resident DNA expert, so I have a question. I am from the Walls family which I believe left Scotland with all of the family and settled in Michigan. Therefore I can not go forward to find current Walls in Scotland and I have been unable to go back. I am also of Irish descent and there I am having even less luck. No first name to match with Kelly. In any case I am interested in The Ireland Reaching Out (IrelandXO) programme. Can you comment. Jim Kelly Sacramento, California -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Sutherland-Fisher (HFH) Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 12:47 AM To: 'Cliff. Johnston'; 'Maisie Egger'; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Differing DNA tests Morning again, I concur with Cliff's assessment below though he missed out the 37 marker which is the minimum to assist in identifying a specific family grouping unless he was meaning 37 rather than 32. Some of our members have taken the test promoted by the Scotsman newspaper and operated by Scotlands DNA. The aim of this project is really just to identify the haplogroup and therefore origins of the modern Scottish population. It doesn’t produce any of the STR markers which is what tells 2 men if and how closely they are related (via 12, 25, 37, 67 or 111 distinct markers). There are a few exceptions in the Scotlands DNA project and that only occurs where a man has such a rare Haplogroup within the Scottish population that the statistical chances of them being related correspondingly increase. For example my uncle from Nairn and 2 other Sutherlands, one from Biggar and the other originally from Thurso were an exact match. The report each received was identical except for their names. However having a Flemish Haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b commonly known as P312 or DF27, Scotlands DNA state in the report that they do not test most of the downside markers because they are so rare among the Scottish population. In fact it is substantially less than 1%. The other 2 have also taken the FTDNA test. They are the original and current default result against whom I measure all others. They match with one another at 20 generations at 80.92%. To me this indicates one is descended from the Sutherland of Forse family and the other from the Sutherland of Duffus family. They have to go back 20-22 generations to Kenneth 4th Earl of Sutherland whose eldest son's younger son founded the Forse line and whose younger son founded the Duffus line. I am sure other tests are good in their own way but as someone who has not taken a test (since my YDNA is English) but is working with the results, there is currently no test nearly as good as the FTDNA one. Cheers Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cliff. Johnston Sent: 07 October 2013 22:20 To: Maisie Egger; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Maisie,   We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-)   As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA.  They have the largest and best support system.  Period.   Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only):   12-markers test:  just whets your appetite for more testing.  About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ]  Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes.   25-markers test:  about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-)   32-markers test:  helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections.  A decent test, but has too many gaps.   67-markers test:  the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up.   111-markers test:  we are still working out the value of this upgrade.  So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations.  If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful.   Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA.  This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison.  This takes more time in addition to more money.   Good hunting,   Cliff.   ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Maisie,   A face without freckles is like a day without sunshine ;-)  Add to that red hair and blue eyes and you can twist me around your little finger any day :-)    I've sent you a private email.  We'll take a closer look at what you have.   Good hunting,   Cliff. From: Maisie Egger <[email protected]> To: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Cliff, I was contacted by a woman who is the DNA coordinator, shall we say, of  Ards Peninsula, Co. Antrim/Co. Down, Northern Ireland, where she says my surname Clint has its roots.  She is the one who encouraged me to have a DNA test (brother’s swab) submitted to determine my roots as she was convinced that it was of an old Irish Celtic link.   I think not as I believe the name, meaning hard, rocky surface, or such like, has its roots in Denmark or elsewhere in Scandinavia.  The Vikings left a huge footprint in York, where a lot of archaeological excavations have been going on for years.  There is a wonderful Jorvik Viking museum/center near York Cathedral.  (It was my decision to go for the lowest DNA marker, by the way, though she recommended the 37 (?) one.) When I was researching my surname in past years ago, I found that the majority by this name did indeed come from York.  There were a few spread around the rest of England and a handful or so in Northern Ireland.  I couldn’t find any by the name in Dublin, another Viking historical area, or the rest of the Republic of Ireland.  In Scotland, the name is an endangered species, few even in Southwest Scotland where I began to trace my lot in the 1700s.  Much as I have no proof (as yet), I’m almost willing to bet that my great-grandfather was “seeded” by this dastardly fellow whose father was from York who seems to have sired two children that we know of, and maybe another two, sans a ring on the finger of any of the women he seemingly seduced...or maybe he didn’t.  Maybe he was so full of charm, they fell for him! The so-called Celtic connection for my name is spurious, I think, and I’m hanging on to the notion that it definitely had Danish/Scandinavian/Viking roots. Does it help any that my father, his cousin and his mother (my father’s aunt), a nephew and his son, my sister, and I to some degree, all had ginger/red hair, fresh complexions (freckles!) and blue eyes.  Does this bespeak a Scandinavian bloodline? One of the Lanark listers right this minute has made a trip by train from the north of England to York, Borthwick Institute, to see if she can in any way trace this Clint family that I could possibly be related to to the “parentless”  great-grandfather.  She is a phenomenal researcher and has done so much to help me get to the bottom of the elusive parentage.  If the Kirk Session, Edinburgh, where she is hoping to go to next, does not have a record of my great-grandfather’s parentage, then I think that is the end of the line and I may as well give up the ghost...except for DNA testing.   If I win the lottery...then Cliff you would have to interpret the results for me as I am as thick as a plank in this regard. Unfortunately, the Kirk Session records in Edinburgh are not online and one would require to go in person or hire someone to do research for you. Maisie ------------------------------------------------ Maisie,   It sounds as if you may have tested as Celtic or even Anglo-Saxon, although my money is on Celtic.  Some of the Celtic lines in the Isles are a nightmare of a puzzle to sort out as so many of them adopted the surnames of others, and in addition they were very mobile.  This accounts for the mubblie-jumblie list that you received with no surnames matching yours.  I've seen this before.  Of course I only hear about the difficult ones to sort out, and I hasten to add that I can do almost nothing to help in these instances.  I've got my hands full as it is with my own line.   Don't give up on the one down in York.  Follow up.  You may receive a great treat.  Then you'll be glad that you had your family Y-DNA tested :-)  As for further Y-DNA test upgrades - probably not worthwhile at this point unless you received a list with a lot matches with no mutations.  What is a lot?  That depends upon the size of your pocketbook.  I certainly would consider an upgrade to 32 markers, but I wouldn't go for any more than that.  That will sort out some of the 12-markers matches and leave you with a meaty fillet to chew on :-)   Good hunting,   Cliff. From: Maisie Egger <[email protected]> To: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]>; [email protected].com Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Cliff, How I admire your “smarts” to untangle the different levels of DNA testing!  I can talk the hind legs off a donkey, but my brain freezes at trying to unscramble the different levels of  DNA testing, though you did your best to give a clear understanding. DNA testing is really not essential to me:  there is no huge heritance among relatives in contention or the birthright of this or that human, and so on, so as I remarked, I’ll just stick with the “tree” plunking names/relatives*** on the different branches as they are found.  I subscribed to the 12-marker at the “bargain price” of $39, but should have saved my money as all I’ve got out of it so far are lists of meaningless names, not one of which shares my surname. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to such as I who does not know which end is up where DNA testing is concerned. ***HOWEVER, there is one instance where DNA would be very useful where there is a possible family connection with its roots in York, one of whose descendants is still living in southwest Scotland (a direct descendant) and then my own male relatives in Lanarkshire whose DNA could be checked to see if one is from the other, but I am too inept about following through on this, plus the expense.  I’d rather use the money to hire someone to paint the bathroom! Maisie ----------------------------------------------------------------  From: Cliff. Johnston Maisie,   We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-)   As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA.  They have the largest and best support system.  Period.   Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only):   12-markers test:  just whets your appetite for more testing.  About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ]  Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes.   25-markers test:  about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-)   32-markers test:  helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections.  A decent test, but has too many gaps.   67-markers test:  the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up.   111-markers test:  we are still working out the value of this upgrade.  So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations.  If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful.   Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA.  This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison.  This takes more time in addition to more money.   Good hunting,   Cliff.     From: Maisie Egger [email protected]   I subscribed to the cheapest offering for DNA testing for my side, with my brother giving the sample.  I don't really know what I expected, but was disappointed that all I got was a list of names from all over the shop, with not one sharing my surname....

Cliff, I was contacted by a woman who is the DNA coordinator, shall we say, of Ards Peninsula, Co. Antrim/Co. Down, Northern Ireland, where she says my surname Clint has its roots. She is the one who encouraged me to have a DNA test (brother’s swab) submitted to determine my roots as she was convinced that it was of an old Irish Celtic link. I think not as I believe the name, meaning hard, rocky surface, or such like, has its roots in Denmark or elsewhere in Scandinavia. The Vikings left a huge footprint in York, where a lot of archaeological excavations have been going on for years. There is a wonderful Jorvik Viking museum/center near York Cathedral. (It was my decision to go for the lowest DNA marker, by the way, though she recommended the 37 (?) one.) When I was researching my surname in past years ago, I found that the majority by this name did indeed come from York. There were a few spread around the rest of England and a handful or so in Northern Ireland. I couldn’t find any by the name in Dublin, another Viking historical area, or the rest of the Republic of Ireland. In Scotland, the name is an endangered species, few even in Southwest Scotland where I began to trace my lot in the 1700s. Much as I have no proof (as yet), I’m almost willing to bet that my great-grandfather was “seeded” by this dastardly fellow whose father was from York who seems to have sired two children that we know of, and maybe another two, sans a ring on the finger of any of the women he seemingly seduced...or maybe he didn’t. Maybe he was so full of charm, they fell for him! The so-called Celtic connection for my name is spurious, I think, and I’m hanging on to the notion that it definitely had Danish/Scandinavian/Viking roots. Does it help any that my father, his cousin and his mother (my father’s aunt), a nephew and his son, my sister, and I to some degree, all had ginger/red hair, fresh complexions (freckles!) and blue eyes. Does this bespeak a Scandinavian bloodline? One of the Lanark listers right this minute has made a trip by train from the north of England to York, Borthwick Institute, to see if she can in any way trace this Clint family that I could possibly be related to to the “parentless” great-grandfather. She is a phenomenal researcher and has done so much to help me get to the bottom of the elusive parentage. If the Kirk Session, Edinburgh, where she is hoping to go to next, does not have a record of my great-grandfather’s parentage, then I think that is the end of the line and I may as well give up the ghost...except for DNA testing. If I win the lottery...then Cliff you would have to interpret the results for me as I am as thick as a plank in this regard. Unfortunately, the Kirk Session records in Edinburgh are not online and one would require to go in person or hire someone to do research for you. Maisie ------------------------------------------------ Maisie, It sounds as if you may have tested as Celtic or even Anglo-Saxon, although my money is on Celtic. Some of the Celtic lines in the Isles are a nightmare of a puzzle to sort out as so many of them adopted the surnames of others, and in addition they were very mobile. This accounts for the mubblie-jumblie list that you received with no surnames matching yours. I've seen this before. Of course I only hear about the difficult ones to sort out, and I hasten to add that I can do almost nothing to help in these instances. I've got my hands full as it is with my own line. Don't give up on the one down in York. Follow up. You may receive a great treat. Then you'll be glad that you had your family Y-DNA tested :-) As for further Y-DNA test upgrades - probably not worthwhile at this point unless you received a list with a lot matches with no mutations. What is a lot? That depends upon the size of your pocketbook. I certainly would consider an upgrade to 32 markers, but I wouldn't go for any more than that. That will sort out some of the 12-markers matches and leave you with a meaty fillet to chew on :-) Good hunting, Cliff. From: Maisie Egger <[email protected]> To: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Cliff, How I admire your “smarts” to untangle the different levels of DNA testing! I can talk the hind legs off a donkey, but my brain freezes at trying to unscramble the different levels of DNA testing, though you did your best to give a clear understanding. DNA testing is really not essential to me: there is no huge heritance among relatives in contention or the birthright of this or that human, and so on, so as I remarked, I’ll just stick with the “tree” plunking names/relatives*** on the different branches as they are found. I subscribed to the 12-marker at the “bargain price” of $39, but should have saved my money as all I’ve got out of it so far are lists of meaningless names, not one of which shares my surname. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to such as I who does not know which end is up where DNA testing is concerned. ***HOWEVER, there is one instance where DNA would be very useful where there is a possible family connection with its roots in York, one of whose descendants is still living in southwest Scotland (a direct descendant) and then my own male relatives in Lanarkshire whose DNA could be checked to see if one is from the other, but I am too inept about following through on this, plus the expense. I’d rather use the money to hire someone to paint the bathroom! Maisie ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cliff. Johnston Maisie, We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-) As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA. They have the largest and best support system. Period. Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only): 12-markers test: just whets your appetite for more testing. About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ] Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes. 25-markers test: about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-) 32-markers test: helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections. A decent test, but has too many gaps. 67-markers test: the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up. 111-markers test: we are still working out the value of this upgrade. So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations. If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful. Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA. This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison. This takes more time in addition to more money. Good hunting, Cliff. From: Maisie Egger [email protected] I subscribed to the cheapest offering for DNA testing for my side, with my brother giving the sample. I don't really know what I expected, but was disappointed that all I got was a list of names from all over the shop, with not one sharing my surname....

I've found DNA to be a tough subject. I've been lucky to have found a mentor from an FTDNA McMullen group who has been extremely helpful. I would encourage anyone who has tested to be sure to join a group for your surname, and reach out to the leader of that group who may be able to help (there are a lot of surname groups at FTDNA). I took the male Y-DNA37 marker test (I'm not aware of a 32 marker one at FTDNA?). There are 5 (fellow McMillan/McMullan's) of us who tested the same through 25 markers. The closest is off at only one marker at 37 markers (actually the only difference is at CDY which is 2 parts, and we only differ on the 2nd part), and I'm told that's a fast moving marker, so we are working to try to find common ancestry. Currently, it appears we share Irish ancestry. There were quite a few different surnames on my results list, but most were off by 3 or more markers overall. I recently also took the Family Finder test at FTDNA, and am awaiting the results. It's said this can help to find cousin's back to 5th and 6th generations, although odds get worse the further back you go. It's said this test can help find ancestor's from all your family lines. I'm looking forward to the results, but I know I'll need guidance to figure it all out. I'm hopeful to find more possible cousins from my Scottish lines, including Drummond/MacGregor, McAlister, Shaw and Todd's. The Family Finder test seems reasonable at $99 at FTDNA, when it used to be closer to $300. This was my last hope for my McMullen lineage, and I'm hopeful to find more relations as more people test. I may need to upgrade my Y-DNA to 67 markers, but will have to save my pennies. Thanks!!  Tom McMillan ________________________________ From: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]> To: Maisie Egger <[email protected]>; "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Maisie,   It sounds as if you may have tested as Celtic or even Anglo-Saxon, although my money is on Celtic.  Some of the Celtic lines in the Isles are a nightmare of a puzzle to sort out as so many of them adopted the surnames of others, and in addition they were very mobile.  This accounts for the mubblie-jumblie list that you received with no surnames matching yours.  I've seen this before.  Of course I only hear about the difficult ones to sort out, and I hasten to add that I can do almost nothing to help in these instances.  I've got my hands full as it is with my own line.   Don't give up on the one down in York.  Follow up.  You may receive a great treat.  Then you'll be glad that you had your family Y-DNA tested :-)  As for further Y-DNA test upgrades - probably not worthwhile at this point unless you received a list with a lot matches with no mutations.  What is a lot?  That depends upon the size of your pocketbook.  I certainly would consider an upgrade to 32 markers, but I wouldn't go for any more than that.  That will sort out some of the 12-markers matches and leave you with a meaty fillet to chew on :-)   Good hunting,   Cliff. From: Maisie Egger <[email protected]> To: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Cliff, How I admire your “smarts” to untangle the different levels of DNA testing!  I can talk the hind legs off a donkey, but my brain freezes at trying to unscramble the different levels of  DNA testing, though you did your best to give a clear understanding. DNA testing is really not essential to me:  there is no huge heritance among relatives in contention or the birthright of this or that human, and so on, so as I remarked, I’ll just stick with the “tree” plunking names/relatives*** on the different branches as they are found.  I subscribed to the 12-marker at the “bargain price” of $39, but should have saved my money as all I’ve got out of it so far are lists of meaningless names, not one of which shares my surname. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to such as I who does not know which end is up where DNA testing is concerned. ***HOWEVER, there is one instance where DNA would be very useful where there is a possible family connection with its roots in York, one of whose descendants is still living in southwest Scotland (a direct descendant) and then my own male relatives in Lanarkshire whose DNA could be checked to see if one is from the other, but I am too inept about following through on this, plus the expense.  I’d rather use the money to hire someone to paint the bathroom! Maisie ----------------------------------------------------------------  From: Cliff. Johnston Maisie,   We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-)   As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA.  They have the largest and best support system.  Period.   Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only):   12-markers test:  just whets your appetite for more testing.  About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ]  Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes.   25-markers test:  about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-)   32-markers test:  helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections.  A decent test, but has too many gaps.   67-markers test:  the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up.   111-markers test:  we are still working out the value of this upgrade.  So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations.  If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful.   Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA.  This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison.  This takes more time in addition to more money.   Good hunting,   Cliff.     From: Maisie Egger [email protected]   I subscribed to the cheapest offering for DNA testing for my side, with my brother giving the sample.  I don't really know what I expected, but was disappointed that all I got was a list of names from all over the shop, with not one sharing my surname....   ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online:  http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Maisie,   It sounds as if you may have tested as Celtic or even Anglo-Saxon, although my money is on Celtic.  Some of the Celtic lines in the Isles are a nightmare of a puzzle to sort out as so many of them adopted the surnames of others, and in addition they were very mobile.  This accounts for the mubblie-jumblie list that you received with no surnames matching yours.  I've seen this before.  Of course I only hear about the difficult ones to sort out, and I hasten to add that I can do almost nothing to help in these instances.  I've got my hands full as it is with my own line.   Don't give up on the one down in York.  Follow up.  You may receive a great treat.  Then you'll be glad that you had your family Y-DNA tested :-)  As for further Y-DNA test upgrades - probably not worthwhile at this point unless you received a list with a lot matches with no mutations.  What is a lot?  That depends upon the size of your pocketbook.  I certainly would consider an upgrade to 32 markers, but I wouldn't go for any more than that.  That will sort out some of the 12-markers matches and leave you with a meaty fillet to chew on :-)   Good hunting,   Cliff. From: Maisie Egger <[email protected]> To: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Cliff, How I admire your “smarts” to untangle the different levels of DNA testing!  I can talk the hind legs off a donkey, but my brain freezes at trying to unscramble the different levels of  DNA testing, though you did your best to give a clear understanding. DNA testing is really not essential to me:  there is no huge heritance among relatives in contention or the birthright of this or that human, and so on, so as I remarked, I’ll just stick with the “tree” plunking names/relatives*** on the different branches as they are found.  I subscribed to the 12-marker at the “bargain price” of $39, but should have saved my money as all I’ve got out of it so far are lists of meaningless names, not one of which shares my surname. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to such as I who does not know which end is up where DNA testing is concerned. ***HOWEVER, there is one instance where DNA would be very useful where there is a possible family connection with its roots in York, one of whose descendants is still living in southwest Scotland (a direct descendant) and then my own male relatives in Lanarkshire whose DNA could be checked to see if one is from the other, but I am too inept about following through on this, plus the expense.  I’d rather use the money to hire someone to paint the bathroom! Maisie ----------------------------------------------------------------  From: Cliff. Johnston Maisie,   We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-)   As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA.  They have the largest and best support system.  Period.   Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only):   12-markers test:  just whets your appetite for more testing.  About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ]  Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes.   25-markers test:  about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-)   32-markers test:  helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections.  A decent test, but has too many gaps.   67-markers test:  the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up.   111-markers test:  we are still working out the value of this upgrade.  So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations.  If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful.   Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA.  This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison.  This takes more time in addition to more money.   Good hunting,   Cliff.     From: Maisie Egger [email protected]   I subscribed to the cheapest offering for DNA testing for my side, with my brother giving the sample.  I don't really know what I expected, but was disappointed that all I got was a list of names from all over the shop, with not one sharing my surname....

Cliff, How I admire your “smarts” to untangle the different levels of DNA testing! I can talk the hind legs off a donkey, but my brain freezes at trying to unscramble the different levels of DNA testing, though you did your best to give a clear understanding. DNA testing is really not essential to me: there is no huge heritance among relatives in contention or the birthright of this or that human, and so on, so as I remarked, I’ll just stick with the “tree” plunking names/relatives*** on the different branches as they are found. I subscribed to the 12-marker at the “bargain price” of $39, but should have saved my money as all I’ve got out of it so far are lists of meaningless names, not one of which shares my surname. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to such as I who does not know which end is up where DNA testing is concerned. ***HOWEVER, there is one instance where DNA would be very useful where there is a possible family connection with its roots in York, one of whose descendants is still living in southwest Scotland (a direct descendant) and then my own male relatives in Lanarkshire whose DNA could be checked to see if one is from the other, but I am too inept about following through on this, plus the expense. I’d rather use the money to hire someone to paint the bathroom! Maisie ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cliff. Johnston Maisie, We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-) As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA. They have the largest and best support system. Period. Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only): 12-markers test: just whets your appetite for more testing. About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ] Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes. 25-markers test: about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-) 32-markers test: helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections. A decent test, but has too many gaps. 67-markers test: the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up. 111-markers test: we are still working out the value of this upgrade. So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations. If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful. Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA. This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison. This takes more time in addition to more money. Good hunting, Cliff. From: Maisie Egger [email protected] I subscribed to the cheapest offering for DNA testing for my side, with my brother giving the sample. I don't really know what I expected, but was disappointed that all I got was a list of names from all over the shop, with not one sharing my surname....

Maisie,   We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-)   As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA.  They have the largest and best support system.  Period.   Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only):   12-markers test:  just whets your appetite for more testing.  About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ]  Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes.   25-markers test:  about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-)   32-markers test:  helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections.  A decent test, but has too many gaps.   67-markers test:  the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up.   111-markers test:  we are still working out the value of this upgrade.  So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations.  If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful.   Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA.  This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison.  This takes more time in addition to more money.   Good hunting,   Cliff.      From: Maisie Egger <[email protected]> To: [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 I subscribed to the cheapest offering for DNA testing for my side, with my brother giving the sample.  I don't really know what I expected, but was disappointed that all I got was a list of names from all over the shop, with not one sharing my surname.  I also know that some on the list have found far out cousins through DNA testing, but they had the same surname, so maybe an easy find. I was then encouraged to climb up the ladder and subscribe to more involved and expensive DNA testing.  I declined. I would much rather compile a family tree of "knowns" than people from all over the place with different names who somehow have the same DNA going back to the year dot. A great tool for scientists and those who really understand the rudiments of DNA testing, but not for me as science has never been my bailiwick. Thanks for the tip, though. Maisie

To find your father or his offspring, you could have a brother or ? take a DNA test. That would give you links to hundreds of males from many different countries. If you took one, there could be male dna in there too. Familytreedna.com Or you could try the Mormon sites Catt On Mon 07/10/13 3:00 AM , [email protected] sent: > > > > > PLEASE NOTE > > > > When replying to a digest message, please quote only the specific portion > or message to which you are replying, removing the rest of the digest from > your reply. Also, remember to change the subject of your reply so that it > coincides with the message subject to which you are replying. > > > ------------------------------- > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. USS Ohio and Jack Surmann (Maisie Egger) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 20:12:21 -0700 > > From: "Maisie Egger" ca > [email protected]> > Subject: [Lanark] USS Ohio and Jack Surmann > > To: [email protected] > otsweb.com> > Message-ID: [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Once more the Lanark list has produced some answers for me. > > > > Admittedly I am the absolutely worst researcher, and so it continues to be > an eye-opener when someone unearths information for me. > > > Jo Ann Croft found the list of crew members on the USS Ohio, 1907, on which > my husband?s father served with Teddy Roosevelt?s Great White Fleet. There > was a lot of other interesting information about which countries the ships > visited, pictures. etc. > > > Jo Ann could not find anything on Jack Surmann, however, the cousin ?Pop? > was to supposed to have had a fight with. I did find a contact e-mail > address and have written to see if there is a database that can be checked > for Jack Surmann. > > > If we can get this fellow where he belongs, then I have another major brick > wall to knock down to find out who the parents were of my > great-grandfather, William Clint, Kirkcudbrightshire. If his father is the > dastardly rascal who seeded a few out of wedlock, then that will surely add > to the colour of the family narrative. > > > How anyone is just content with basic stats mystifies me as the hunt for > details is what makes genealogy so interesting. > > > Thanks again to Jo Ann for her extra help. > > > > Maisie > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > To contact the LANARK list administrator, send an email to > > LAN > [email protected] > > > To post a message to the LANARK mailing list, send an email to [email protected] > otsweb.com. > > > __________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to L > [email protected] > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > > > > End of LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 > > ************************************** > > > > > >

I subscribed to the cheapest offering for DNA testing for my side, with my brother giving the sample. I don't really know what I expected, but was disappointed that all I got was a list of names from all over the shop, with not one sharing my surname. I also know that some on the list have found far out cousins through DNA testing, but they had the same surname, so maybe an easy find. I was then encouraged to climb up the ladder and subscribe to more involved and expensive DNA testing. I declined. I would much rather compile a family tree of "knowns" than people from all over the place with different names who somehow have the same DNA going back to the year dot. A great tool for scientists and those who really understand the rudiments of DNA testing, but not for me as science has never been my bailiwick. Thanks for the tip, though. Maisie -----Original Message----- From: Catt Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 9:14 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 To find your father or his offspring, you could have a brother or ? take a DNA test. That would give you links to hundreds of males from many different countries. If you took one, there could be male dna in there too. Familytreedna.com Or you could try the Mormon sites Catt On Mon 07/10/13 3:00 AM , [email protected] sent: > > > > > PLEASE NOTE > > > > When replying to a digest message, please quote only the specific portion > or message to which you are replying, removing the rest of the digest from > your reply. Also, remember to change the subject of your reply so that it > coincides with the message subject to which you are replying. > > > ------------------------------- > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. USS Ohio and Jack Surmann (Maisie Egger) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 20:12:21 -0700 > > From: "Maisie Egger" ca > [email protected]> > Subject: [Lanark] USS Ohio and Jack Surmann > > To: [email protected] > otsweb.com> > Message-ID: [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Once more the Lanark list has produced some answers for me. > > > > Admittedly I am the absolutely worst researcher, and so it continues to be > an eye-opener when someone unearths information for me. > > > Jo Ann Croft found the list of crew members on the USS Ohio, 1907, on > which > my husband?s father served with Teddy Roosevelt?s Great White Fleet. > There > was a lot of other interesting information about which countries the ships > visited, pictures. etc. > > > Jo Ann could not find anything on Jack Surmann, however, the cousin ?Pop? > was to supposed to have had a fight with. I did find a contact e-mail > address and have written to see if there is a database that can be checked > for Jack Surmann. > > > If we can get this fellow where he belongs, then I have another major > brick > wall to knock down to find out who the parents were of my > great-grandfather, William Clint, Kirkcudbrightshire. If his father is > the > dastardly rascal who seeded a few out of wedlock, then that will surely > add > to the colour of the family narrative. > > > How anyone is just content with basic stats mystifies me as the hunt for > details is what makes genealogy so interesting. > > > Thanks again to Jo Ann for her extra help. > > > > Maisie > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > To contact the LANARK list administrator, send an email to > > LAN > [email protected] > > > To post a message to the LANARK mailing list, send an email to [email protected] > otsweb.com. > > > __________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to L > [email protected] > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > > > > End of LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 > > ************************************** > > > > > > ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Once more the Lanark list has produced some answers for me. Admittedly I am the absolutely worst researcher, and so it continues to be an eye-opener when someone unearths information for me. Jo Ann Croft found the list of crew members on the USS Ohio, 1907, on which my husband’s father served with Teddy Roosevelt’s Great White Fleet. There was a lot of other interesting information about which countries the ships visited, pictures. etc. Jo Ann could not find anything on Jack Surmann, however, the cousin “Pop” was to supposed to have had a fight with. I did find a contact e-mail address and have written to see if there is a database that can be checked for Jack Surmann. If we can get this fellow where he belongs, then I have another major brick wall to knock down to find out who the parents were of my great-grandfather, William Clint, Kirkcudbrightshire. If his father is the dastardly rascal who seeded a few out of wedlock, then that will surely add to the colour of the family narrative. How anyone is just content with basic stats mystifies me as the hunt for details is what makes genealogy so interesting. Thanks again to Jo Ann for her extra help. Maisie

Maisie, With the government shutdown in effect, all the websites have been suspended. But when this foolishness is finally ended, try the National Archives http://www.archives.gov/ You can obtain an abbreviated service record for about $25 and order it online. I looked for him in the 1900 census aboard a USN ship but did not find him. Do you have any idea of his age? Here is a link to the wiki page for the USS Ohio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ohio_(BB-12) Jo-Ann On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Maisie Egger <[email protected]>wrote: > Can anyone advise me where I might be able to find a list of crew members > on the battleship SS Ohio, around 1908, which was part of Teddy Roosevelt’s > Great White Fleet? I did contact some U.S. navy “office” one time but > received no reply. > > I realise that this is not germane to the Lanark list, but any port in a > storm...so to speak! > > My husband’s father, Pop, Anton Joseph Egger, served as a sailor on the > “SS Ohio” for about four years. He had mentioned that he had had a “fight” > with a John (Jack) Surmann who told him they shouldn’t be “fighting” as > they were cousins. Pop’s mother was Veronica Surmann, but we’ve never been > able to find out if she had a brother who might also have moved to America > from Austria in the 1880-1890s. > > I’ve never been able to find this John (Jack) Surmann...he may have been > living in New Jersey or New York, but not Chicago, Illinois, where Pop grew > up after coming to America from Austria when he’d be about five years old > 1890. > > Fast forward: My husband, youngest of Anton Joseph Egger’s children, also > was a sailor 1950-1954 on the aircraft carrier USS FDR (Franklin Delano > Roosevelt). If the ship had not docked on the Clyde for repairs in 1952, I > would never have met him...me, a shy wee lassie from Glasgow, > LANARKSHIRE...so there’s the weak link of two/three American sailors to > this Lanark list! > > The SS Ohio did not sail to Europe on Pop’s watch, but he “forever” spoke > of how impressed he was when the ship sailed into Sydney harbour as he > considered it to be the most beautiful harbour he’d been to. Pop met a > fellow there with nine sisters who wanted him to jump ship (and marry > one!), as well as the fact that he was an electrician whose skills were in > demand in Australia in those years. He declined! > > Again, if he’d gone awol, there would have been no Joseph Anton Egger, my > dearly beloved, and I, a Glaswegian, would not be trying to trace this > elusive “cousin,” Jack Surmann more than 100 years later through this > Lanark list of people such as Nivard Ovington who is so well-versed in so > many facets of genealogy. > > Maisie > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on > the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

http://www.archives.gov/research/military/genealogy.html -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisie Egger Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 2:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] Where is Jack Surmann ca 1908? Can anyone advise me where I might be able to find a list of crew members on the battleship SS Ohio, around 1908, which was part of Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet? I did contact some U.S. navy "office" one time but received no reply. I realise that this is not germane to the Lanark list, but any port in a storm...so to speak! My husband's father, Pop, Anton Joseph Egger, served as a sailor on the "SS Ohio" for about four years. He had mentioned that he had had a "fight" with a John (Jack) Surmann who told him they shouldn't be "fighting" as they were cousins. Pop's mother was Veronica Surmann, but we've never been able to find out if she had a brother who might also have moved to America from Austria in the 1880-1890s. I've never been able to find this John (Jack) Surmann...he may have been living in New Jersey or New York, but not Chicago, Illinois, where Pop grew up after coming to America from Austria when he'd be about five years old 1890. Fast forward: My husband, youngest of Anton Joseph Egger's children, also was a sailor 1950-1954 on the aircraft carrier USS FDR (Franklin Delano Roosevelt). If the ship had not docked on the Clyde for repairs in 1952, I would never have met him...me, a shy wee lassie from Glasgow, LANARKSHIRE...so there's the weak link of two/three American sailors to this Lanark list! The SS Ohio did not sail to Europe on Pop's watch, but he "forever" spoke of how impressed he was when the ship sailed into Sydney harbour as he considered it to be the most beautiful harbour he'd been to. Pop met a fellow there with nine sisters who wanted him to jump ship (and marry one!), as well as the fact that he was an electrician whose skills were in demand in Australia in those years. He declined! Again, if he'd gone awol, there would have been no Joseph Anton Egger, my dearly beloved, and I, a Glaswegian, would not be trying to trace this elusive "cousin," Jack Surmann more than 100 years later through this Lanark list of people such as Nivard Ovington who is so well-versed in so many facets of genealogy. Maisie ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Can anyone advise me where I might be able to find a list of crew members on the battleship SS Ohio, around 1908, which was part of Teddy Roosevelt’s Great White Fleet? I did contact some U.S. navy “office” one time but received no reply. I realise that this is not germane to the Lanark list, but any port in a storm...so to speak! My husband’s father, Pop, Anton Joseph Egger, served as a sailor on the “SS Ohio” for about four years. He had mentioned that he had had a “fight” with a John (Jack) Surmann who told him they shouldn’t be “fighting” as they were cousins. Pop’s mother was Veronica Surmann, but we’ve never been able to find out if she had a brother who might also have moved to America from Austria in the 1880-1890s. I’ve never been able to find this John (Jack) Surmann...he may have been living in New Jersey or New York, but not Chicago, Illinois, where Pop grew up after coming to America from Austria when he’d be about five years old 1890. Fast forward: My husband, youngest of Anton Joseph Egger’s children, also was a sailor 1950-1954 on the aircraft carrier USS FDR (Franklin Delano Roosevelt). If the ship had not docked on the Clyde for repairs in 1952, I would never have met him...me, a shy wee lassie from Glasgow, LANARKSHIRE...so there’s the weak link of two/three American sailors to this Lanark list! The SS Ohio did not sail to Europe on Pop’s watch, but he “forever” spoke of how impressed he was when the ship sailed into Sydney harbour as he considered it to be the most beautiful harbour he’d been to. Pop met a fellow there with nine sisters who wanted him to jump ship (and marry one!), as well as the fact that he was an electrician whose skills were in demand in Australia in those years. He declined! Again, if he’d gone awol, there would have been no Joseph Anton Egger, my dearly beloved, and I, a Glaswegian, would not be trying to trace this elusive “cousin,” Jack Surmann more than 100 years later through this Lanark list of people such as Nivard Ovington who is so well-versed in so many facets of genealogy. Maisie

On 30-Sep-13 5:01 PM, [email protected] wrote: > 1. Re: death in Australia (Ken) > > Does any Lister with knowledge about research in Australia have any > suggestions on how I might find more background on this poor 32 year-old: > 1. any record of crew members on ships sailing Australian waters in 1891? Yes - see: http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/fact-sheets/fs260.aspx > 2. records of coroner's verdicts for Adelaide in 1891? Yes - see http://www.archives.sa.gov.au/readingroom/advice/inquestsandpolicereports.html > 3. records of property turned over to Public Trustee in Adelaide in > 1891/1892? See above and http://www.jaunay.com/wills.html > 4. he boarded briefly with a Mr. F.W. Merrett on Franklin Street, Adelaide. > Was there a census in Adelaide in 1891? (I'm really grasping at straws here) NO - no census records available in Australia - only statistical summaries > 5. death records for South Australia 1891? DTH index gives d.11 Dec 1891 35y no relative recorded, no residence recorded, died at Brownhill Creek Ref: Ade 198/462 - it has the code GS added which means: G - guessed age and S - "other information which may benefit the researcher" is included but probably only records the fact that an inquest was held and the verdict which you would have had from the newspaper report. SA death certificates for the period can include: Date of death, place of death, name, usual residence, age, sex, cause of death, name of informant, description and address of informant. Note where an inquest was held the informant is most likely the coroner or one of his deputies. > 6. any other blue-sky ideas? If you would like to, you are most welcome to contact me off list. Regards, Jay

I think I have contacted directly each of the several Listers who gave me advice, but I want to acknowledge their help here as well, particularly Linda who found a newspaper article in Adelaide, South Australia in early 1892 which almost certainly is about my man. The article reports a coroner's verdict regarding the gunshot suicide of a man of the correct name and age to match all known details of my family member, as well as the rumour of his suicide. He died 10 December 1891 in Adelaide. If only the article provided even the slightest information about his background, I would be more confident that this was not just a macabre coincidence. There is reference in the article to his having had some previous employment as a steward on a few ships, and that his belongings were turned over to the Public Trustee. Does any Lister with knowledge about research in Australia have any suggestions on how I might find more background on this poor 32 year-old: 1. any record of crew members on ships sailing Australian waters in 1891? 2. records of coroner's verdicts for Adelaide in 1891? 3. records of property turned over to Public Trustee in Adelaide in 1891/1892? 4. he boarded briefly with a Mr. F.W. Merrett on Franklin Street, Adelaide. Was there a census in Adelaide in 1891? (I'm really grasping at straws here) 5. death records for South Australia 1891? 6. any other blue-sky ideas? Ken Harrison North Vancouver, Canada -----Original Message----- From: Ken [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 28-Sep-13 3:20 PM To: Query Lanark Subject: death in Australia I have been searching for a relative for about 45 years, and wonder whether some Lister with information about Australian records might be able to assist me. My great-grandmother had a young brother who, according to two separate letters I received in 1967 from two different relatives in Scotland, emigrated to Australia and died there, possibly of suicide. Both of these informants had known the individual when they were each young, so I have tended to believe their stories. The data on this individual are: . Name: James MORRISON . Birth: 15 April 1859, Bowling, Dumbartonshire . 1871: with family in Glasgow . 1881: not identified in any records . 1891: with mother at Woodside, Causewayhead, Stirling . No record found after the above Other related information: . James had an older sister, Janet Morrison, who emigrated to Australia in 1877 and married in Sydney in Dec 1878 to Edward AMBROSE, who died in 1912. Janet lived: . in 1890s in Waverley . from early 1900s to after 1920 in Kogarah . in 1930s in Peakhurst I understand that all the above locations are relatively close to each other and near Sydney. I have no indication whatsoever that he had any communication with this sister in Australia, but it seems it would be likely. Is there some way to search for a death in Australia, country-wide, for a death between 1891 and (say) 1935? Is there a separate registry for suicides? Any other suggestions? Ken Harrison North Vancouver, Canada

Hi Ken Have you tried http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper Digital Australia newspapers (archive) online - and searchable? Kind regards, Linda N -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Sunday, 29 September 2013 11:20 a.m. To: Query Lanark Subject: [Lanark] death in Australia I have been searching for a relative for about 45 years, and wonder whether some Lister with information about Australian records might be able to assist me. My great-grandmother had a young brother who, according to two separate letters I received in 1967 from two different relatives in Scotland, emigrated to Australia and died there, possibly of suicide. Both of these informants had known the individual when they were each young, so I have tended to believe their stories. The data on this individual are: . Name: James MORRISON . Birth: 15 April 1859, Bowling, Dumbartonshire . 1871: with family in Glasgow . 1881: not identified in any records . 1891: with mother at Woodside, Causewayhead, Stirling . No record found after the above Other related information: . James had an older sister, Janet Morrison, who emigrated to Australia in 1877 and married in Sydney in Dec 1878 to Edward AMBROSE, who died in 1912. Janet lived: . in 1890s in Waverley . from early 1900s to after 1920 in Kogarah . in 1930s in Peakhurst I understand that all the above locations are relatively close to each other and near Sydney. I have no indication whatsoever that he had any communication with this sister in Australia, but it seems it would be likely. Is there some way to search for a death in Australia, country-wide, for a death between 1891 and (say) 1935? Is there a separate registry for suicides? Any other suggestions? Ken Harrison North Vancouver, Canada ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ken, We corresponded re some of your Sydney family about 1999 I think. Have you tried the NSW Electoral Rolls on Ancestry for further addresses, also Trove, the National Libraries Newspaper Digitisation which is fully searchable, this might lead to further clues. There is also State Records of NSW, where if you go into 'Archives in Brief' it will give details of Coroner's Inquests etc. You might also find Deceased Estate or Probate records on this site. http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/ Hope this might help you Ken, Regards Jenny -----Original Message----- From: Ken Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2013 8:20 AM To: Query Lanark Subject: [Lanark] death in Australia I have been searching for a relative for about 45 years, and wonder whether some Lister with information about Australian records might be able to assist me.

Hi Ken Country wide no its not possible as there is not a nationwide index If in or near Sydney it would be New South Wales and they have searchable indexes here http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 28/09/2013 23:20, Ken wrote: > I have been searching for a relative for about 45 years, and wonder whether > some Lister with information about Australian records might be able to > assist me. > My great-grandmother had a young brother who, according to two separate > letters I received in 1967 from two different relatives in Scotland, > emigrated to Australia and died there, possibly of suicide. Both of these > informants had known the individual when they were each young, so I have > tended to believe their stories. > > The data on this individual are: > . Name: James MORRISON > . Birth: 15 April 1859, Bowling, Dumbartonshire > . 1871: with family in Glasgow > . 1881: not identified in any records > . 1891: with mother at Woodside, Causewayhead, Stirling > . No record found after the above > > Other related information: > . James had an older sister, Janet Morrison, who emigrated to Australia in > 1877 and married in Sydney in Dec 1878 to Edward AMBROSE, who died in 1912. > Janet lived: > . in 1890s in Waverley > . from early 1900s to after 1920 in Kogarah > . in 1930s in Peakhurst > I understand that all the above locations are relatively close to each other > and near Sydney. I have no indication whatsoever that he had any > communication with this sister in Australia, but it seems it would be > likely. > > Is there some way to search for a death in Australia, country-wide, for a > death between 1891 and (say) 1935? > Is there a separate registry for suicides? > Any other suggestions? > > Ken Harrison > North Vancouver, Canada

I have been searching for a relative for about 45 years, and wonder whether some Lister with information about Australian records might be able to assist me. My great-grandmother had a young brother who, according to two separate letters I received in 1967 from two different relatives in Scotland, emigrated to Australia and died there, possibly of suicide. Both of these informants had known the individual when they were each young, so I have tended to believe their stories. The data on this individual are: . Name: James MORRISON . Birth: 15 April 1859, Bowling, Dumbartonshire . 1871: with family in Glasgow . 1881: not identified in any records . 1891: with mother at Woodside, Causewayhead, Stirling . No record found after the above Other related information: . James had an older sister, Janet Morrison, who emigrated to Australia in 1877 and married in Sydney in Dec 1878 to Edward AMBROSE, who died in 1912. Janet lived: . in 1890s in Waverley . from early 1900s to after 1920 in Kogarah . in 1930s in Peakhurst I understand that all the above locations are relatively close to each other and near Sydney. I have no indication whatsoever that he had any communication with this sister in Australia, but it seems it would be likely. Is there some way to search for a death in Australia, country-wide, for a death between 1891 and (say) 1935? Is there a separate registry for suicides? Any other suggestions? Ken Harrison North Vancouver, Canada