Clearly I appear to be in a minority of one <g> I can see no use at all for dna in my own research, I have no desire to know that a person whose name I don't know and likely never will, came from XXXXX several hundred years ago Neither do I see the need to line the pockets of the many companies pedalling dna checks and databases That is not say I don't think there should be discussion about dna on the lists, I really don't mind, my delete button works just fine :-) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

Regarding the usefulness of DNA testing, I am very pleased with what emerged from my brother's test. With the surname Black we didn't have any idea about our origins. The FTDNA results came with a list of names of others who have close DNA matches and we found that the majority had the name MacGregor or associated names such as Greig or McGhee as well as a few Campbells. We assume that our name goes back to the time when the MacGregor name was proscribed in Scotland and the clan members had to take other names, Black being one of them. I have read that some of them also took the name Campbell, which this DNA match list would seem to confirm. We did the 37 marker test back in 2008 and in my opinion it was definitely worthwhile. Sheila Brewer ---- Nivard Ovington <[email protected]> wrote: > > Clearly I appear to be in a minority of one <g> > > I can see no use at all for dna in my own research, I have no desire to > know that a person whose name I don't know and likely never will, came > from XXXXX several hundred years ago > > Neither do I see the need to line the pockets of the many companies > pedalling dna checks and databases > > That is not say I don't think there should be discussion about dna on > the lists, I really don't mind, my delete button works just fine :-) > > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Morning Gail, Absolutely fascinating. According to my uncle's Scotlands DNA report, M222 was described as Ancient Irish and S443 was described as Norse Viking with S142 being Scandinavian and S68 being described as Hebridean Viking. They described S182 as being Norse. I know the whose classification system is constantly evolving and frankly I cannot keep up with it. Regards, Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gail Riddell Sent: 10 October 2013 06:23 To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] Genealogy, Lanark, R-M222 I have been following the comments regarding Maisie's thoughts on DNA testing and her genealogy; regarding Cliff and other's offerings, especially now that the Haplogroup R-M222 has been mentioned. I am both a long term old fashioned genealogist but a few years ago, I got involved with DNA testing to bring both proof and truth to my "paper findings". Although it has cost much money to test the many people I needed to test over these years, these tests have revealed information that I could never have gleaned from my paper trails. To this end, I have met (in person and via email) many people deeply involved in Genetic genealogy plus now administer numerous Surname projects with Family Tree DNA - all voluntarily. DNA testing (especially of the men) is so invaluable that prior to my travelling through Lanark and the Lothian areas of Scotland earlier this year seeking further paper trails/proof of my family from those areas, I asked if any male of either the RIDDLE or the RIDDELL surname would be interested in meeting with me and taking a free DNA test. There was utter silence.

Hi FraserMartha Forrest who married into one of my DEWAR lines. Frank McGonigal Ont.Canada. Descendants of William Forrest 1 William Forrest .. +Euphemia Reid ..... 2 Jean Forrest 1821 - ..... 2 Isabel Forrest 1825 - ..... 2 Martha Forrest 1829 - 1891 ......... +Robert Dewar 1826 - 1889 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 12:00:32 -0400 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Lanark] Common Haplogroup in Lanark > > Mark, > My Forrest haplogroup is M-222, but my ancestors have been in the > Carluke region since at least the early 1700s and probably much earlier. > Its quite possible that they came from Dal Riata, an Irish kingdom > including modern day Argyleshire dating back to AD 500. If so, they may > have come to Lanarkshire ( the kingdom of Strathclyde) well before the > use of surnames became common. Of the 50 Forrests which have joined > FTDNA there are 8 distinct groups. I suppose that this isn't surprising > since it is obviously a name based on occupation or possibly location. > Regards, > Fraser Forrest > Ontario, Canada > > ~~~~

Mark, My Forrest haplogroup is M-222, but my ancestors have been in the Carluke region since at least the early 1700s and probably much earlier. Its quite possible that they came from Dal Riata, an Irish kingdom including modern day Argyleshire dating back to AD 500. If so, they may have come to Lanarkshire ( the kingdom of Strathclyde) well before the use of surnames became common. Of the 50 Forrests which have joined FTDNA there are 8 distinct groups. I suppose that this isn't surprising since it is obviously a name based on occupation or possibly location. Regards, Fraser Forrest Ontario, Canada On 10/9/2013 2:31 AM, Mark Sutherland-Fisher (HFH) wrote: > Morning Frank, > If your Haplogroup is M222 it implies your male ancestry is from Northern > Ireland/West of Scotland and is among the most dominant groups within the > Irish and Scottish populations. This will probably be the most dominant > Haplogroup of the modern day population of Lanarkshire, Glasgow and > West-Central Scotland in general owing to the mass immigration from Ireland > to Scotland from the early 1800s. > Cheers > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of Frank Mcgonigal > Sent: 09 October 2013 00:34, > To: Cliff. Johnston; Maisie Egger; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 > > Does it signify anything that I have the same as Maisie ? > > Y-DNA R1b1a2a1a1b4b Shorthand R-M222 > mtDNA V > > Frank McGonigal > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > >> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 14:32:36 -0700 >> From: [email protected] >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 >> >> Maisie and I have been going over her Y-DNA information off-group > privately. She has a wealth of information in her 12 markers! I've gone > over it with her, and we would like to share the general gist of it as > follows, in the hopes that it may help someone else - great gal that Maisie! >> >> The red copy added to the Haplogroup entries are my additions to some of > the information that FTDNA provided for Maisie. I hope that the copy shows > up in red - if not it is the copy right after each Haplogroup entry, i.e.: > "Maisie - 12 Markers Test" >> Exact Match >> Haplogroup Country Comment Count >> R1b1 - Maisie - 12 Markers Test Scotland - 2 >> R1b1 - Unknown Person - 12 Markers Test Unknown Origin - 1 R1b1a2– >> Probable 25 Marker Test Unknown Origin - 1 >> R1b1a2a1a1b4 – Probable 37 Markers England - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – >> Probable 67 Markers Test England - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 >> Markers Test Germany - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test >> Ireland - 11 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Northern Ireland >> - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest Scotland - 5 R1b1a2a1a1b4b >> – Probable 67 MarkersTest United Kingdom - 3 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable >> 67 MarkersTest Unknown Origin - 9 >> >> From what we can see here, Maisie may have at least 22 Haplogroup matches > that will probably be within genealogical time – good deal! >> >> The interpretation that may be the most obvious here is that her >> genetic predecessor started in Europe and moved to the British Isles, > Ireland more specifically. His genes mutated to give us the modern day > haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b4b. Over the years some of this group moved on to > England and Scotland. Of course this could be just as easily interpreted in > several other ways with the genetic predecessor starting in any of the above > mentioned countries and the only group that really flourished was in > Ireland; however, Ireland was typically the last stop at the end of > a journey from mainland Europe. >> >> With most of the Matches being of Irish origin all of the different Irish > surnames do not surprise me. I have worked with my wife’s side of the > family, Casey of Co. Cork, and I have found much the same thing > there. Maisie's main line would have started in one town or farm area in > Ireland. As their numbers grew the land could not support all of them. > Some moved on to greener pastures, so to speak. When they moved to a new > area they would typically have taken the surname of their local protector – > ergo! We have the reason for all of the different surnames in the Matches > section of FTDNA. Typically I have seen a lot of surname changes in Ireland > within the various Celtic haplogroups. They apparently moved around quite a > bit. >> >> The only way that Maisie going to be able to track this down quickly and > more precisely is to upgrade to at least 37 markers, and realistically she > will probably want to upgrade to 67 markers after that. At least this has > been my experience. Maisie has one other strong factor in her favor, many > of those who match her have posted their contact information so that she can > email them easily J The trick will be to not get hung up looking for just > one surname, Clint. She need to look for genetic relatedness. What are her > chances of finding useable matches? Excellent, I would say. The next step > is up to her – and of course I will be here to help Maisie figure out what > to do next – God willing J We've been rubbing shoulders on the internet for > so long that I swear that some days I feel as if she is kin and right > next door :-) Would you like a cuppa, Maisie? >> >> Good hunting, >> >> Cliff. >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] >> You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on > the following link to the list information page online: >> http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. > Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the > following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6584 (20111028) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > >

Hi So are you saying that in order to find out whether one's great great grandfather SURNAME is related to another male SURNAME one has to pay for a 67 marker DNA test (at $248!) I have a 4X great great grandfather born 1766 near Glasgow ...a branch IN NZ with the same surname has an ancestor born in 1773 in the same area ...we suspect that the two men are brothers. What the cheapest way of using DNA to find out? Are you saying that the 12 marker test wouldn't tell me this? Irene

Hi MarkThanks for your input.Like Maisie I'm confused about this new science as applied to Genealogy. I had already deduced from various sources that I belong to the Northern Ireland group..McGonigal is also supposed to be of Milesian origin.My Irish ancestors did indeed come from Northern Ireland..my Scottish half is McColls from Isle of Mull,and my Dewars are from the Lothians.I gather from what you say that Maisie and I belong to the very large M222 group,but we can't say that we're related in recent times.I have done the YDNA 111 marker test and Maisies Clints etc. don't appear there.They don't turn up in the 23andMe which I also had done. I have had two successes with YDNA...one was my adopted brother,whose son wanted me to find living relatives.Luckily someone who matched his YDNA had tested with FamilyTreeDNA,they were MacDonalds with ties to the Glencoe MacDonalds..the person he matched was living in BC Canada.Comparing photos of them both they look like brothers. Thanks Frank McGonigal Ont.Canada > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: RE: [Lanark] Common Haplogroup in Lanark > Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 07:31:44 +0100 > > Morning Frank, > If your Haplogroup is M222 it implies your male ancestry is from Northern > Ireland/West of Scotland and is among the most dominant groups within the > Irish and Scottish populations. This will probably be the most dominant > Haplogroup of the modern day population of Lanarkshire, Glasgow and > West-Central Scotland in general owing to the mass immigration from Ireland > to Scotland from the early 1800s. > Cheers > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of Frank Mcgonigal > Sent: 09 October 2013 00:34, > To: Cliff. Johnston; Maisie Egger; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 > > Does it signify anything that I have the same as Maisie ? > > Y-DNA R1b1a2a1a1b4b Shorthand R-M222 > mtDNA V > > Frank McGonigal > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 14:32:36 -0700 > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 > > > > Maisie and I have been going over her Y-DNA information off-group > privately. She has a wealth of information in her 12 markers! I've gone > over it with her, and we would like to share the general gist of it as > follows, in the hopes that it may help someone else - great gal that Maisie! > > > > The red copy added to the Haplogroup entries are my additions to some of > the information that FTDNA provided for Maisie. I hope that the copy shows > up in red - if not it is the copy right after each Haplogroup entry, i.e.: > "Maisie - 12 Markers Test" > > Exact Match > > Haplogroup Country Comment Count > > R1b1 - Maisie - 12 Markers Test Scotland - 2 > > R1b1 - Unknown Person - 12 Markers Test Unknown Origin - 1 R1b1a2– > > Probable 25 Marker Test Unknown Origin - 1 > > R1b1a2a1a1b4 – Probable 37 Markers England - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – > > Probable 67 Markers Test England - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 > > Markers Test Germany - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test > > Ireland - 11 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Northern Ireland > > - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest Scotland - 5 R1b1a2a1a1b4b > > – Probable 67 MarkersTest United Kingdom - 3 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable > > 67 MarkersTest Unknown Origin - 9 > > > > From what we can see here, Maisie may have at least 22 Haplogroup matches > that will probably be within genealogical time – good deal! > > > > The interpretation that may be the most obvious here is that her > > genetic predecessor started in Europe and moved to the British Isles, > Ireland more specifically. His genes mutated to give us the modern day > haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b4b. Over the years some of this group moved on to > England and Scotland. Of course this could be just as easily interpreted in > several other ways with the genetic predecessor starting in any of the above > mentioned countries and the only group that really flourished was in > Ireland; however, Ireland was typically the last stop at the end of > a journey from mainland Europe. > > > > With most of the Matches being of Irish origin all of the different Irish > surnames do not surprise me. I have worked with my wife’s side of the > family, Casey of Co. Cork, and I have found much the same thing > there. Maisie's main line would have started in one town or farm area in > Ireland. As their numbers grew the land could not support all of them. > Some moved on to greener pastures, so to speak. When they moved to a new > area they would typically have taken the surname of their local protector – > ergo! We have the reason for all of the different surnames in the Matches > section of FTDNA. Typically I have seen a lot of surname changes in Ireland > within the various Celtic haplogroups. They apparently moved around quite a > bit. > > > > The only way that Maisie going to be able to track this down quickly and > more precisely is to upgrade to at least 37 markers, and realistically she > will probably want to upgrade to 67 markers after that. At least this has > been my experience. Maisie has one other strong factor in her favor, many > of those who match her have posted their contact information so that she can > email them easily J The trick will be to not get hung up looking for just > one surname, Clint. She need to look for genetic relatedness. What are her > chances of finding useable matches? Excellent, I would say. The next step > is up to her – and of course I will be here to help Maisie figure out what > to do next – God willing J We've been rubbing shoulders on the internet for > so long that I swear that some days I feel as if she is kin and right > next door :-) Would you like a cuppa, Maisie? > > > > Good hunting, > > > > Cliff. > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on > the following link to the list information page online: > > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. > Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the > following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Maisie, If the men in your family have the Haplogroup M222, you can forget any notion of being a Viking from York. You are as Irish-Scots as it is possible to be. That doesn't mean of course that one of your female ancestors didn't come from Viking stock, at least one of them almost certainly did but you father's line is Irish. The M222 Haplogroup is heavily concentrated on a handful of families in Northern Ireland who over the last 1000+ years have been heavy breeders. If you follow this link to Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA) and scroll down two thirds of the way down the page you will get about the simplest explanation of M222 I have seen. Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisie Egger Sent: 09 October 2013 02:45 To: Frank Mcgonigal; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 I'm in HUGE DENIAL, Frank, not wishing to insult you, but this connection to Ireland does not impress me as any resources I've found so far indicate that my lot most likely originated in York...of Viking stock perhaps! I wrote Cliff that it is altogether too complicated to get my head around. Maybe the male brain is more receptive, for why else the DNA test is "male dominated?" I know, there is some testing for the female side, but that's for another day. The huge IF is that IF your DNA rooted in Ireland is the same as mine, does this mean that "somebody" pollinated the same "flowers?" See, I really don't know what I am talking about. Maisie

Morning Frank, If your Haplogroup is M222 it implies your male ancestry is from Northern Ireland/West of Scotland and is among the most dominant groups within the Irish and Scottish populations. This will probably be the most dominant Haplogroup of the modern day population of Lanarkshire, Glasgow and West-Central Scotland in general owing to the mass immigration from Ireland to Scotland from the early 1800s. Cheers Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Frank Mcgonigal Sent: 09 October 2013 00:34, To: Cliff. Johnston; Maisie Egger; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Does it signify anything that I have the same as Maisie ? Y-DNA R1b1a2a1a1b4b Shorthand R-M222 mtDNA V Frank McGonigal ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   > Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 14:32:36 -0700 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 > > Maisie and I have been going over her Y-DNA information off-group privately.  She has a wealth of information in her 12 markers!  I've gone over it with her, and we would like to share the general gist of it as follows, in the hopes that it may help someone else - great gal that Maisie! >   > The red copy added to the Haplogroup entries are my additions to some of the information that FTDNA provided for Maisie.  I hope that the copy shows up in red - if not it is the copy right after each Haplogroup entry, i.e.:  "Maisie - 12 Markers Test" >  Exact Match > Haplogroup Country Comment Count > R1b1 - Maisie - 12 Markers Test Scotland - 2 > R1b1 - Unknown Person - 12 Markers Test Unknown Origin - 1 R1b1a2– > Probable 25 Marker Test Unknown Origin - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4 – Probable 37 Markers England - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – > Probable 67 Markers Test England - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 > Markers Test Germany - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test > Ireland - 11 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Northern Ireland > - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest Scotland - 5 R1b1a2a1a1b4b > – Probable 67 MarkersTest United Kingdom - 3 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable > 67 MarkersTest Unknown Origin - 9 > > From what we can see here, Maisie may have at least 22 Haplogroup matches that will probably be within genealogical time – good deal! >   > The interpretation that may be the most obvious here is that her > genetic predecessor started in Europe and moved to the British Isles, Ireland more specifically.  His genes mutated to give us the modern day haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b4b.  Over the years some of this group moved on to England and Scotland.  Of course this could be just as easily interpreted in several other ways with the genetic predecessor starting in any of the above mentioned countries and the only group that really flourished was in Ireland; however, Ireland was typically the last stop at the end of a journey from mainland Europe. >   > With most of the Matches being of Irish origin all of the different Irish surnames do not surprise me.  I have worked with my wife’s side of the family, Casey of Co. Cork, and I have found much the same thing there.  Maisie's main line would have started in one town or farm area in Ireland.  As their numbers grew the land could not support all of them.  Some moved on to greener pastures, so to speak.  When they moved to a new area they would typically have taken the surname of their local protector – ergo!  We have the reason for all of the different surnames in the Matches section of FTDNA.  Typically I have seen a lot of surname changes in Ireland within the various Celtic haplogroups.  They apparently moved around quite a bit. >   > The only way that Maisie going to be able to track this down quickly and more precisely is to upgrade to at least 37 markers, and realistically she will probably want to upgrade to 67 markers after that.  At least this has been my experience.  Maisie has one other strong factor in her favor, many of those who match her have posted their contact information so that she can email them easily J  The trick will be to not get hung up looking for just one surname, Clint.  She need to look for genetic relatedness.  What are her chances of finding useable matches?  Excellent, I would say.  The next step is up to her – and of course I will be here to help Maisie figure out what to do next – God willing J We've been rubbing shoulders on the internet for so long that I swear that some days I feel as if she is kin and right next door :-)  Would you like a cuppa, Maisie? >   > Good hunting, >   > Cliff. > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Irene,  1.       So are you saying that in order to find out whether one's great great grandfather SURNAME  is related to another male SURNAME one has to pay for a 67 marker DNA test (at $248!) NO, you do not HAVE to pay for anything.  The choice is yours. 2.       What the cheapest way of using DNA to find out? DNA will not give you the kinship that you are looking for.  It will bring closely connected/related people together so that they can work as a group using traditional genealogy methods, i.e.:  finding a paper trail. 3.        Are you saying that the 12 marker test wouldn't tell me this? Unequivocally – YES!   Now, in the defense of Y-DNA testing:   There are over 70 of us in our Johnston/e family group who have had our Y-DNA tested as a "last resort" method.  We were in much the same position (and worse) that you find yourself in.  Y-DNA testing has brought us together in a cohesive, working, family group.  We have Y-DNA Cousins in Scotland, Ireland, Australia, Canada, the U.S.A. and other countries that slip my mind right now.  These 70 Cousins have brought in some of their kin too.  It has taken us almost 9 years to get to this point, but do not forget that Y-DNA testing was in its infancy when we started our Y-DNA quest, as was internet genealogy.  Our latest breakthrough looks as if it will connect Y-DNA Cousins in Australia, Canada, Ireland,  the U.S.A. and Scotland.  This is the sort of breakthrough that many of us have been dreaming of.  We've paid our dues, so to speak, and we are reaping the rewards.   On top of all of this a Cousin in Australia thought that a "business man's" Y-DNA Spreadsheet" would tell us more at a glance than the traditional geneticists' format.  Another Cousin in North Carolina added some tweaks, and I put it all together in its final form.  I maintain our JOHNSTON Y-DNA Spreadsheet.  We are now on v.22.  In addition I started our private Johnston/e group on Yahoo and write a sporadic JOHNSTON Family Newsletter which has been very helpful to all of us.   What you chose to do is up to you and you alone.   Good hunting,   Cliff.   P.S.:  We've got some McLeod family in our trees too :-)

Evening Jim, You flatter me. I suspect there are more knowledgeable DNA scholars in the group! My understanding is that currently the only 2 things which can be identified for certain are if you are male, your yDNA and your mother's mDNA. Your yDNA will plot the direct line of your genetic descent through the purely male line with no female ancestors possible. The mDNA is the female DNA you inherit from your mother, she from her mother and so on up the purely female line, no men possible. It was this route which was used to identify the remains of Richard III found in the Leicester car park. The Canadian carpenter chap they traced and used was the son of a daughter of a daughter of a daughter etc. all the way back to Duchess Cecily mother of Richard III. Richard had the same mDNA from Duchess Cecily as her direct female descendant's present day son derived from her. That was why when the mDNA taken from Richard's skeleton and the mDNA taken from the Canadian chap's mouth swab, they matched identically on the charts. I was about to say I assume your yDNA will come from your Kelly ancestor who presumably was Irish. Somewhat surprisingly we had a Kelly pop up in the Sutherland results at 12 markers which suggests that at some time a distant cousin of a Freskyn settled in Ireland and eventually took or was given the name Kelly. I'm sorry but I hadn't heard of the Ireland Reach Out programme. All the best Mark -----Original Message----- From: James Kelly [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 08 October 2013 15:29 To: [email protected]; 'Cliff. Johnston'; 'Maisie Egger'; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: RE: [Lanark] Differing DNA tests Mark, You seem to be our resident DNA expert, so I have a question. I am from the Walls family which I believe left Scotland with all of the family and settled in Michigan. Therefore I can not go forward to find current Walls in Scotland and I have been unable to go back. I am also of Irish descent and there I am having even less luck. No first name to match with Kelly. In any case I am interested in The Ireland Reaching Out (IrelandXO) programme. Can you comment. Jim Kelly Sacramento, California -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Sutherland-Fisher (HFH) Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 12:47 AM To: 'Cliff. Johnston'; 'Maisie Egger'; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Differing DNA tests Morning again, I concur with Cliff's assessment below though he missed out the 37 marker which is the minimum to assist in identifying a specific family grouping unless he was meaning 37 rather than 32. Some of our members have taken the test promoted by the Scotsman newspaper and operated by Scotlands DNA. The aim of this project is really just to identify the haplogroup and therefore origins of the modern Scottish population. It doesn’t produce any of the STR markers which is what tells 2 men if and how closely they are related (via 12, 25, 37, 67 or 111 distinct markers). There are a few exceptions in the Scotlands DNA project and that only occurs where a man has such a rare Haplogroup within the Scottish population that the statistical chances of them being related correspondingly increase. For example my uncle from Nairn and 2 other Sutherlands, one from Biggar and the other originally from Thurso were an exact match. The report each received was identical except for their names. However having a Flemish Haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b commonly known as P312 or DF27, Scotlands DNA state in the report that they do not test most of the downside markers because they are so rare among the Scottish population. In fact it is substantially less than 1%. The other 2 have also taken the FTDNA test. They are the original and current default result against whom I measure all others. They match with one another at 20 generations at 80.92%. To me this indicates one is descended from the Sutherland of Forse family and the other from the Sutherland of Duffus family. They have to go back 20-22 generations to Kenneth 4th Earl of Sutherland whose eldest son's younger son founded the Forse line and whose younger son founded the Duffus line. I am sure other tests are good in their own way but as someone who has not taken a test (since my YDNA is English) but is working with the results, there is currently no test nearly as good as the FTDNA one. Cheers Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cliff. Johnston Sent: 07 October 2013 22:20 To: Maisie Egger; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Maisie,   We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-)   As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA.  They have the largest and best support system.  Period.   Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only):   12-markers test:  just whets your appetite for more testing.  About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ]  Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes.   25-markers test:  about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-)   32-markers test:  helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections.  A decent test, but has too many gaps.   67-markers test:  the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up.   111-markers test:  we are still working out the value of this upgrade.  So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations.  If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful.   Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA.  This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison.  This takes more time in addition to more money.   Good hunting,   Cliff.   ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Evening Cliff, Given the years you have happily shared, educated and on occasion entertained the rest of us in the group, if we couldn’t spot that you were obviously having a wee techie issue, we wouldn’t be worthy of the status of esteemed colleagues and fellow enthusiasts. I hope you are well. Isn’t technology scary in the hands of we mere mortals J All the best from a cooler Easter Ross, autumn finally approaches! Mark From: Cliff. Johnston [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 08 October 2013 17:44 To: [email protected]; 'Maisie Egger'; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: Differing DNA tests Mark, Ach, thanks for spotting my typo. Yes, it should be 37 markers! I've got a wee bit of egg on my face now ;-) lol...got to wipe it off somehow :-) Now comes my excuse - arthritis. I've bought Dragon software and installed it. I only need to start using it - got to get over the initial "software shock"...lol... I am making far too many errors, so much so that my wpm are probably down from 60 to 10, not good... Cliff. From: Mark Sutherland-Fisher (HFH) <[email protected]> To: 'Cliff. Johnston' <[email protected]>; 'Maisie Egger' <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2013 2:47 AM Subject: RE: Differing DNA tests Morning again, I concur with Cliff's assessment below though he missed out the 37 marker which is the minimum to assist in identifying a specific family grouping unless he was meaning 37 rather than 32. Some of our members have taken the test promoted by the Scotsman newspaper and operated by Scotlands DNA. The aim of this project is really just to identify the haplogroup and therefore origins of the modern Scottish population. It doesn’t produce any of the STR markers which is what tells 2 men if and how closely they are related (via 12, 25, 37, 67 or 111 distinct markers). There are a few exceptions in the Scotlands DNA project and that only occurs where a man has such a rare Haplogroup within the Scottish population that the statistical chances of them being related correspondingly increase. For example my uncle from Nairn and 2 other Sutherlands, one from Biggar and the other originally from Thurso were an exact match. The report each received was identical except for their names. However having a Flemish Haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b commonly known as P312 or DF27, Scotlands DNA state in the report that they do not test most of the downside markers because they are so rare among the Scottish population. In fact it is substantially less than 1%. The other 2 have also taken the FTDNA test. They are the original and current default result against whom I measure all others. They match with one another at 20 generations at 80.92%. To me this indicates one is descended from the Sutherland of Forse family and the other from the Sutherland of Duffus family. They have to go back 20-22 generations to Kenneth 4th Earl of Sutherland whose eldest son's younger son founded the Forse line and whose younger son founded the Duffus line. I am sure other tests are good in their own way but as someone who has not taken a test (since my YDNA is English) but is working with the results, there is currently no test nearly as good as the FTDNA one. Cheers Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cliff. Johnston Sent: 07 October 2013 22:20 To: Maisie Egger; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Maisie, We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-) As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA. They have the largest and best support system. Period. Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only): 12-markers test: just whets your appetite for more testing. About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ] Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes. 25-markers test: about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-) 32-markers test: helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections. A decent test, but has too many gaps. 67-markers test: the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up. 111-markers test: we are still working out the value of this upgrade. So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations. If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful. Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA. This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison. This takes more time in addition to more money. Good hunting, Cliff.

Does it signify anything that I have the same as Maisie ? Y-DNA R1b1a2a1a1b4b Shorthand R-M222 mtDNA V Frank McGonigal ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   > Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 14:32:36 -0700 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 > > Maisie and I have been going over her Y-DNA information off-group privately.  She has a wealth of information in her 12 markers!  I've gone over it with her, and we would like to share the general gist of it as follows, in the hopes that it may help someone else - great gal that Maisie! >   > The red copy added to the Haplogroup entries are my additions to some of the information that FTDNA provided for Maisie.  I hope that the copy shows up in red - if not it is the copy right after each Haplogroup entry, i.e.:  "Maisie - 12 Markers Test" >  Exact Match > Haplogroup Country Comment Count > R1b1 - Maisie - 12 Markers Test Scotland - 2 > R1b1 - Unknown Person - 12 Markers Test Unknown Origin - 1 > R1b1a2– Probable 25 Marker Test Unknown Origin - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4 – Probable 37 Markers England - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test England - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Germany - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Ireland - 11 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Northern Ireland - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest Scotland - 5 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest United Kingdom - 3 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest Unknown Origin - 9 > > From what we can see here, Maisie may have at least 22 Haplogroup matches that will probably be within genealogical time – good deal! >   > The interpretation that may be the most obvious here is that her genetic predecessor started in Europe and moved to the British Isles, Ireland more specifically.  His genes mutated to give us the modern day haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b4b.  Over the years some of this group moved on to England and Scotland.  Of course this could be just as easily interpreted in several other ways with the genetic predecessor starting in any of the above mentioned countries and the only group that really flourished was in Ireland; however, Ireland was typically the last stop at the end of a journey from mainland Europe.  >   > With most of the Matches being of Irish origin all of the different Irish surnames do not surprise me.  I have worked with my wife’s side of the family, Casey of Co. Cork, and I have found much the same thing there.  Maisie's main line would have started in one town or farm area in Ireland.  As their numbers grew the land could not support all of them.  Some moved on to greener pastures, so to speak.  When they moved to a new area they would typically have taken the surname of their local protector – ergo!  We have the reason for all of the different surnames in the Matches section of FTDNA.  Typically I have seen a lot of surname changes in Ireland within the various Celtic haplogroups.  They apparently moved around quite a bit. >   > The only way that Maisie going to be able to track this down quickly and more precisely is to upgrade to at least 37 markers, and realistically she will probably want to upgrade to 67 markers after that.  At least this has been my experience.  Maisie has one other strong factor in her favor, many of those who match her have posted their contact information so that she can email them easily J  The trick will be to not get hung up looking for just one surname, Clint.  She need to look for genetic relatedness.  What are her chances of finding useable matches?  Excellent, I would say.  The next step is up to her – and of course I will be here to help Maisie figure out what to do next – God willing J We've been rubbing shoulders on the internet for so long that I swear that some days I feel as if she is kin and right next door :-)  Would you like a cuppa, Maisie? >   > Good hunting, >   > Cliff. > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

For some unknown reason the chart that I was making reference to was split up, and most of it is at the bottom of the messages, so, please scroll down to see it :-)  Ach, I'll try to send it here too to see if it all goes at once.  M269 R1b1a2*...............Maisie 1. L23 !R1b1a2a* 1. L150 !R1b1a2a1* 1. L51 !R1b1a2a1a* 1. P311L52L11P310 !L151R1b1a2a1a1* 1. U106 !R1b1a2a1a1a* 1. U198 !R1b1a2a1a1a1 2. P107 !R1b1a2a1a1a2 3. L1 !R1b1a2a1a1a3 4. L48 !R1b1a2a1a1a4* 1. L47 !R1b1a2a1a1a4a* 1. L44 !L163R1b1a2a1a1a4a1* 1. L46 !R1b1a2a1a1a4a1a* 1. L45L164 !L237R1b1a2a1a1a4a1a1 2. L148 !R1b1a2a1a1a4b 3. L188 !R1b1a2a1a1a4c 5. L6 !R1b1a2a1a1a5 6. P89.2 !R1b1a2a1a1a6 7. L217 !R1b1a2a1a1a7 8. L257 !R1b1a2a1a1a8 9. L325 !R1b1a2a1a1a9 2. P312 !R1b1a2a1a1b* 1. M65 !R1b1a2a1a1b1 2. M153 !R1b1a2a1a1b2 3. U152 !R1b1a2a1a1b3* 1. M126 !R1b1a2a1a1b3a 2. M160 !R1b1a2a1a1b3b 3. L2 !R1b1a2a1a1b3c* 1. L20 !R1b1a2a1a1b3c1* 1. M228.2 !R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a 2. L196 !R1b1a2a1a1b3c2 4. L4 !R1b1a2a1a1b3d 4. L21 !R1b1a2a1a1b4* 1. M37 !R1b1a2a1a1b4a 2. M222 !R1b1a2a1a1b4b...........Frank 3. P66 !R1b1a2a1a1b4c 4. L96 !R1b1a2a1a1b4d 5. L144 !L195R1b1a2a1a1b4e 6. L159.2 !R1b1a2a1a1b4f 7. L193 !R1b1a2a1a1b4g 8. L226 !R1b1a2a1a1b4h 9. P314.2 !R1b1a2a1a1b4i 5. L176.2 !R1b1a2a1a1b5* 1. SRY2627 !R1b1a2a1a1b5a 2. L165 !R1b1a2a1a1b5b   Cliff. From: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]> To: Frank Mcgonigal <[email protected]>; Maisie Egger <[email protected]>; "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2013 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Frank,   Dunno, maybe - aaah, perhaps a definite maybe?  ;-)  Right now with only 12 markers tested Maisie is shown as an abbreviated M229, R1b1a2a*.  She needs more markers tested to tell much more of anything.  It is just that her exact matches are shown as those with more tested markers and the haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b4b.  Let's face it, FTDNA cannot predict a whole lot with only 12 markers.  They may have tested something more and simply not told us.   To get to M222 you had to test positive for M269 which is as far as Maisie has tested.  You tested much further, and as you can see on the FTDNA chart:   R1b1a2a*..................Maisie   The solution is for both of you to be tested to 67 markers to see how many changes (or mutations) there are, and it depends upon which markers have mutated (or changed).  As you can see from the above chart, there is lots of room for changes to happen, but for some reason or other FTDNA is showing Maisie as matching others in the same haplogroup as you are in.  The more that I think about it the more that I believe that they know something that they are not showing...  It happens.   Then one has to interpret the results...  There are "fast-changing markers" (so designated by FTDNA) such as Loci 32-35 which some mathematicians disregard totally when counting miss-matches, much to the dismay of FTDNA.  The gurus do not always agree with each other ;-)  In our Johnston/e family we have a grandfather and grandson with 2 changes (or mutations), one at Locus #32 and the other at Locus #35.  Their age difference is about 50 years - I need to verify their exact age difference and make a note of it too.   Then there are "fast-changing markers" such as Loci 5 & 6 which appear to me in my Johnston/e family to be "medium-changing" among the "fast-changing", still, they are designated as "fast-changing markers".   Lastly there are "fast-changing markers" that are a wee bit slower changing than the rest of the "fast-changing markers", such as Loci 9 & 13-15.  lol...it's enough to drive a sane man daft from time to time ;-)   One just has to take a look at what the 2 of you have, and take it from there using whatever knowledge and experience is available as not all of the knowledge is born out by the practical experiences.    I have found in our Johnston/e group that we have 2 groups of 2 people, both with with 2 changes (or mutations) in 67 markers, that both pairs have found their Most Recent Common Ancestor in the mid-1700s.  My 2 cousins and I have a perfect match for 67 markers, and we are looking for our Most Recent Common Ancestor sometime in the late 1700s or early 1800s.  Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.  If you look at the recent activity on the Co. Cavan, Ireland, list you'll see that a bunch of us are getting ready to kick down some doors, big time.  We just need to get a few more upgrades from cousins in Canada.   I hope that I haven't confused you too much :-)   Good hunting,   Cliff.   From: Frank Mcgonigal <[email protected]> To: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]>; Maisie Egger <[email protected]>; "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2013 6:34 PM Subject: RE: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Does it signify anything that I have the same as Maisie ? Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b4b    Shorthand    R-M222 mtDNA    V Frank McGonigal ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Frank,   Dunno, maybe - aaah, perhaps a definite maybe?  ;-)  Right now with only 12 markers tested Maisie is shown as an abbreviated M229, R1b1a2a*.  She needs more markers tested to tell much more of anything.  It is just that her exact matches are shown as those with more tested markers and the haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b4b.  Let's face it, FTDNA cannot predict a whole lot with only 12 markers.  They may have tested something more and simply not told us.   To get to M222 you had to test positive for M269 which is as far as Maisie has tested.  You tested much further, and as you can see on the FTDNA chart:   R1b1a2a*..................Maisie   The solution is for both of you to be tested to 67 markers to see how many changes (or mutations) there are, and it depends upon which markers have mutated (or changed).  As you can see from the above chart, there is lots of room for changes to happen, but for some reason or other FTDNA is showing Maisie as matching others in the same haplogroup as you are in.  The more that I think about it the more that I believe that they know something that they are not showing...  It happens.   Then one has to interpret the results...  There are "fast-changing markers" (so designated by FTDNA) such as Loci 32-35 which some mathematicians disregard totally when counting miss-matches, much to the dismay of FTDNA.  The gurus do not always agree with each other ;-)  In our Johnston/e family we have a grandfather and grandson with 2 changes (or mutations), one at Locus #32 and the other at Locus #35.  Their age difference is about 50 years - I need to verify their exact age difference and make a note of it too.   Then there are "fast-changing markers" such as Loci 5 & 6 which appear to me in my Johnston/e family to be "medium-changing" among the "fast-changing", still, they are designated as "fast-changing markers".   Lastly there are "fast-changing markers" that are a wee bit slower changing than the rest of the "fast-changing markers", such as Loci 9 & 13-15.  lol...it's enough to drive a sane man daft from time to time ;-)   One just has to take a look at what the 2 of you have, and take it from there using whatever knowledge and experience is available as not all of the knowledge is born out by the practical experiences.    I have found in our Johnston/e group that we have 2 groups of 2 people, both with with 2 changes (or mutations) in 67 markers, that both pairs have found their Most Recent Common Ancestor in the mid-1700s.  My 2 cousins and I have a perfect match for 67 markers, and we are looking for our Most Recent Common Ancestor sometime in the late 1700s or early 1800s.  Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.  If you look at the recent activity on the Co. Cavan, Ireland, list you'll see that a bunch of us are getting ready to kick down some doors, big time.  We just need to get a few more upgrades from cousins in Canada.   I hope that I haven't confused you too much :-)   Good hunting,   Cliff.   From: Frank Mcgonigal <[email protected]> To: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]>; Maisie Egger <[email protected]>; "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2013 6:34 PM Subject: RE: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Does it signify anything that I have the same as Maisie ? Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b4b    Shorthand    R-M222 mtDNA    V Frank McGonigal ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   > Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 14:32:36 -0700 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected]bcglobal.net; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 > > Maisie and I have been going over her Y-DNA information off-group privately.  She has a wealth of information in her 12 markers!  I've gone over it with her, and we would like to share the general gist of it as follows, in the hopes that it may help someone else - great gal that Maisie! >   > The red copy added to the Haplogroup entries are my additions to some of the information that FTDNA provided for Maisie.  I hope that the copy shows up in red - if not it is the copy right after each Haplogroup entry, i.e.:  "Maisie - 12 Markers Test" >  Exact Match > Haplogroup Country Comment Count > R1b1 - Maisie - 12 Markers Test Scotland - 2 > R1b1 - Unknown Person - 12 Markers Test Unknown Origin - 1 > R1b1a2– Probable 25 Marker Test Unknown Origin - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4 – Probable 37 Markers England - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test England - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Germany - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Ireland - 11 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Northern Ireland - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest Scotland - 5 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest United Kingdom - 3 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest Unknown Origin - 9 > > From what we can see here, Maisie may have at least 22 Haplogroup matches that will probably be within genealogical time – good deal! >   > The interpretation that may be the most obvious here is that her genetic predecessor started in Europe and moved to the British Isles, Ireland more specifically.  His genes mutated to give us the modern day haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b4b.  Over the years some of this group moved on to England and Scotland.  Of course this could be just as easily interpreted in several other ways with the genetic predecessor starting in any of the above mentioned countries and the only group that really flourished was in Ireland; however, Ireland was typically the last stop at the end of a journey from mainland Europe.  >   > With most of the Matches being of Irish origin all of the different Irish surnames do not surprise me.  I have worked with my wife’s side of the family, Casey of Co. Cork, and I have found much the same thing there.  Maisie's main line would have started in one town or farm area in Ireland.  As their numbers grew the land could not support all of them.  Some moved on to greener pastures, so to speak.  When they moved to a new area they would typically have taken the surname of their local protector – ergo!  We have the reason for all of the different surnames in the Matches section of FTDNA.  Typically I have seen a lot of surname changes in Ireland within the various Celtic haplogroups.  They apparently moved around quite a bit. >   > The only way that Maisie going to be able to track this down quickly and more precisely is to upgrade to at least 37 markers, and realistically she will probably want to upgrade to 67 markers after that.  At least this has been my experience.  Maisie has one other strong factor in her favor, many of those who match her have posted their contact information so that she can email them easily J  The trick will be to not get hung up looking for just one surname, Clint.  She need to look for genetic relatedness.  What are her chances of finding useable matches?  Excellent, I would say.  The next step is up to her – and of course I will be here to help Maisie figure out what to do next – God willing J We've been rubbing shoulders on the internet for so long that I swear that some days I feel as if she is kin and right next door :-)  Would you like a cuppa, Maisie? >   > Good hunting, >   > Cliff. > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message                         1. L150 !R1b1a2a1* 1. L51 !R1b1a2a1a* 1. P311L52L11P310 !L151R1b1a2a1a1* 1. U106 !R1b1a2a1a1a* 1. U198 !R1b1a2a1a1a1 2. P107 !R1b1a2a1a1a2 3. L1 !R1b1a2a1a1a3 4. L48 !R1b1a2a1a1a4* 1. L47 !R1b1a2a1a1a4a* 1. L44 !L163R1b1a2a1a1a4a1* 1. L46 !R1b1a2a1a1a4a1a* 1. L45L164 !L237R1b1a2a1a1a4a1a1 2. L148 !R1b1a2a1a1a4b 3. L188 !R1b1a2a1a1a4c 5. L6 !R1b1a2a1a1a5 6. P89.2 !R1b1a2a1a1a6 7. L217 !R1b1a2a1a1a7 8. L257 !R1b1a2a1a1a8 9. L325 !R1b1a2a1a1a9 2. P312 !R1b1a2a1a1b* 1. M65 !R1b1a2a1a1b1 2. M153 !R1b1a2a1a1b2 3. U152 !R1b1a2a1a1b3* 1. M126 !R1b1a2a1a1b3a 2. M160 !R1b1a2a1a1b3b 3. L2 !R1b1a2a1a1b3c* 1. L20 !R1b1a2a1a1b3c1* 1. M228.2 !R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a 2. L196 !R1b1a2a1a1b3c2 4. L4 !R1b1a2a1a1b3d 4. L21 !R1b1a2a1a1b4* 1. M37 !R1b1a2a1a1b4a 2. M222 !..........................FrankR1b1a2a1a1b4b 3. P66 !R1b1a2a1a1b4c 4. L96 !R1b1a2a1a1b4d 5. L144 !L195R1b1a2a1a1b4e 6. L159.2 !R1b1a2a1a1b4f 7. L193 !R1b1a2a1a1b4g 8. L226 !R1b1a2a1a1b4h 9. P314.2 !R1b1a2a1a1b4i 5. L176.2 !R1b1a2a1a1b5* 1. SRY2627 !R1b1a2a1a1b5a 2. L165 !R1b1a2a1a1b5b

I'm in HUGE DENIAL, Frank, not wishing to insult you, but this connection to Ireland does not impress me as any resources I've found so far indicate that my lot most likely originated in York...of Viking stock perhaps! I wrote Cliff that it is altogether too complicated to get my head around. Maybe the male brain is more receptive, for why else the DNA test is "male dominated?" I know, there is some testing for the female side, but that's for another day. The huge IF is that IF your DNA rooted in Ireland is the same as mine, does this mean that "somebody" pollinated the same "flowers?" See, I really don't know what I am talking about. Maisie -----Original Message----- From: Frank Mcgonigal Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:34 PM To: Cliff. Johnston ; Maisie Egger ; [email protected] Subject: RE: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Does it signify anything that I have the same as Maisie ? Y-DNA R1b1a2a1a1b4b Shorthand R-M222 mtDNA V Frank McGonigal ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 14:32:36 -0700 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 > > Maisie and I have been going over her Y-DNA information off-group > privately. She has a wealth of information in her 12 markers! I've gone > over it with her, and we would like to share the general gist of it as > follows, in the hopes that it may help someone else - great gal that > Maisie! > > The red copy added to the Haplogroup entries are my additions to some of > the information that FTDNA provided for Maisie. I hope that the copy > shows up in red - if not it is the copy right after each Haplogroup entry, > i.e.: "Maisie - 12 Markers Test" > Exact Match > Haplogroup Country Comment Count > R1b1 - Maisie - 12 Markers Test Scotland - 2 > R1b1 - Unknown Person - 12 Markers Test Unknown Origin - 1 > R1b1a2– Probable 25 Marker Test Unknown Origin - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4 – Probable 37 Markers England - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test England - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Germany - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Ireland - 11 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Northern Ireland - 1 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest Scotland - 5 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest United Kingdom - 3 > R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest Unknown Origin - 9 > > From what we can see here, Maisie may have at least 22 Haplogroup matches > that will probably be within genealogical time – good deal! > > The interpretation that may be the most obvious here is that her genetic > predecessor started in Europe and moved to the British Isles, Ireland more > specifically. His genes mutated to give us the modern day haplogroup > R1b1a2a1a1b4b. Over the years some of this group moved on to England and > Scotland. Of course this could be just as easily interpreted in several > other ways with the genetic predecessor starting in any of the above > mentioned countries and the only group that really flourished was in > Ireland; however, Ireland was typically the last stop at the end of a > journey from mainland Europe. > > With most of the Matches being of Irish origin all of the different Irish > surnames do not surprise me. I have worked with my wife’s side of the > family, Casey of Co. Cork, and I have found much the same thing there. > Maisie's main line would have started in one town or farm area in Ireland. > As their numbers grew the land could not support all of them. Some moved > on to greener pastures, so to speak. When they moved to a new area they > would typically have taken the surname of their local protector – ergo! > We have the reason for all of the different surnames in the Matches > section of FTDNA. Typically I have seen a lot of surname changes in > Ireland within the various Celtic haplogroups. They apparently moved > around quite a bit. > > The only way that Maisie going to be able to track this down quickly and > more precisely is to upgrade to at least 37 markers, and realistically she > will probably want to upgrade to 67 markers after that. At least this has > been my experience. Maisie has one other strong factor in her favor, many > of those who match her have posted their contact information so that she > can email them easily J The trick will be to not get hung up looking for > just one surname, Clint. She need to look for genetic relatedness. What > are her chances of finding useable matches? Excellent, I would say. The > next step is up to her – and of course I will be here to help Maisie > figure out what to do next – God willing J We've been rubbing shoulders on > the internet for so long that I swear that some days I feel as if she is > kin and right next door :-) Would you like a cuppa, Maisie? > > Good hunting, > > Cliff. > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on > the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message =

Maisie and I have been going over her Y-DNA information off-group privately.  She has a wealth of information in her 12 markers!  I've gone over it with her, and we would like to share the general gist of it as follows, in the hopes that it may help someone else - great gal that Maisie!   The red copy added to the Haplogroup entries are my additions to some of the information that FTDNA provided for Maisie.  I hope that the copy shows up in red - if not it is the copy right after each Haplogroup entry, i.e.:  "Maisie - 12 Markers Test"  Exact Match Haplogroup Country Comment Count R1b1 - Maisie - 12 Markers Test Scotland - 2 R1b1 - Unknown Person - 12 Markers Test Unknown Origin - 1 R1b1a2– Probable 25 Marker Test Unknown Origin - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4 – Probable 37 Markers England - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test England - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Germany - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Ireland - 11 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 Markers Test Northern Ireland - 1 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest Scotland - 5 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest United Kingdom - 3 R1b1a2a1a1b4b – Probable 67 MarkersTest Unknown Origin - 9 From what we can see here, Maisie may have at least 22 Haplogroup matches that will probably be within genealogical time – good deal!   The interpretation that may be the most obvious here is that her genetic predecessor started in Europe and moved to the British Isles, Ireland more specifically.  His genes mutated to give us the modern day haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b4b.  Over the years some of this group moved on to England and Scotland.  Of course this could be just as easily interpreted in several other ways with the genetic predecessor starting in any of the above mentioned countries and the only group that really flourished was in Ireland; however, Ireland was typically the last stop at the end of a journey from mainland Europe.    With most of the Matches being of Irish origin all of the different Irish surnames do not surprise me.  I have worked with my wife’s side of the family, Casey of Co. Cork, and I have found much the same thing there.  Maisie's main line would have started in one town or farm area in Ireland.  As their numbers grew the land could not support all of them.  Some moved on to greener pastures, so to speak.  When they moved to a new area they would typically have taken the surname of their local protector – ergo!  We have the reason for all of the different surnames in the Matches section of FTDNA.  Typically I have seen a lot of surname changes in Ireland within the various Celtic haplogroups.  They apparently moved around quite a bit.   The only way that Maisie going to be able to track this down quickly and more precisely is to upgrade to at least 37 markers, and realistically she will probably want to upgrade to 67 markers after that.  At least this has been my experience.  Maisie has one other strong factor in her favor, many of those who match her have posted their contact information so that she can email them easily J  The trick will be to not get hung up looking for just one surname, Clint.  She need to look for genetic relatedness.  What are her chances of finding useable matches?  Excellent, I would say.  The next step is up to her – and of course I will be here to help Maisie figure out what to do next – God willing J We've been rubbing shoulders on the internet for so long that I swear that some days I feel as if she is kin and right next door :-)  Would you like a cuppa, Maisie?   Good hunting,   Cliff.

Mark,   Thank you for your kind words.   I believe that I'm going to have to chalk it up to creeping old age (or is it galloping old age now?) - last year I hit the magic number 69 ;-)  and am about to leave it behind the day after Christmas :-)  That and a nasty car wreck some 3 years ago rang my bell, and it is still bothering me.  The embarrassing part of it is that I spotted that confounded error, meant to change it, got distracted and forgot about it...ach!  There you are, the truth will out ;-)  lol...or as Herr Schickelgruber's public relations department put it, "Work shall set you Free." They just forgot to mention anything about being worked to death ;-)  Oooh, nasty dig, but I couldn't resist it... perhaps I need to spend more time on my genealogy?  If that is possible...    Yes, on the cooler weather.  We have finally dropped out of the 90 degree F. range down to the high 80s.  Today I manned my Harris's Hawk for the first time this hunting season.  He's a plump 620 g. and rarin' to hunt.  It will take about 10 days to get him retrained to where I want him.  Then it is after the bunnies :-)   Good hunting,   Cliff. From: Mark Sutherland-Fisher (HFH) <[email protected]> To: 'Cliff. Johnston' <[email protected]>; 'Maisie Egger' <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2013 3:45 PM Subject: RE: Differing DNA tests Evening Cliff, Given the years you have happily shared, educated and on occasion entertained the rest of us in the group, if we couldn’t spot that you were obviously having a wee techie issue, we wouldn’t be worthy of the status of esteemed colleagues and fellow enthusiasts. I hope you are well. Isn’t technology scary in the hands of we mere mortals J All the best from a cooler Easter Ross, autumn finally approaches! Mark   From:Cliff. Johnston [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 08 October 2013 17:44 To: [email protected]; 'Maisie Egger'; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: Differing DNA tests   Mark,   Ach, thanks for spotting my typo.  Yes, it should be 37 markers!  I've got a wee bit of egg on my face now ;-)  lol...got to wipe it off somehow :-)   Now comes my excuse - arthritis.  I've bought Dragon software and installed it.  I only need to start using it - got to get over the initial "software shock"...lol...  I am making far too many errors, so much so that my wpm are probably down from 60 to 10, not good...   Cliff.   From:Mark Sutherland-Fisher (HFH) <[email protected]> To: 'Cliff. Johnston' <[email protected]>; 'Maisie Egger' <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2013 2:47 AM Subject: RE: Differing DNA tests Morning again, I concur with Cliff's assessment below though he missed out the 37 marker which is the minimum to assist in identifying a specific family grouping unless he was meaning 37 rather than 32. Some of our members have taken the test promoted by the Scotsman newspaper and operated by Scotlands DNA. The aim of this project is really just to identify the haplogroup and therefore origins of the modern Scottish population. It doesn’t produce any of the STR markers which is what tells 2 men if and how closely they are related (via 12, 25, 37, 67 or 111 distinct markers). There are a few exceptions in the Scotlands DNA project and that only occurs where a man has such a rare Haplogroup within the Scottish population that the statistical chances of them being related correspondingly increase. For example my uncle from Nairn and 2 other Sutherlands, one from Biggar and the other originally from Thurso were an exact match. The report each received was identical except for their names. However having a Flemish Haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b commonly known as P312 or DF27, Scotlands DNA state in the report that they do not test most of the downside markers because they are so rare among the Scottish population. In fact it is substantially less than 1%. The other 2 have also taken the FTDNA test. They are the original and current default result against whom I measure all others. They match with one another at 20 generations at 80.92%. To me this indicates one is descended from the Sutherland of Forse family and the other from the Sutherland of Duffus family. They have to go back 20-22 generations to Kenneth 4th Earl of Sutherland whose eldest son's younger son founded the Forse line and whose younger son founded the Duffus line. I am sure other tests are good in their own way but as someone who has not taken a test (since my YDNA is English) but is working with the results, there is currently no test nearly as good as the FTDNA one. Cheers Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cliff. Johnston Sent: 07 October 2013 22:20 To: Maisie Egger; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Maisie,   We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-)   As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA.  They have the largest and best support system.  Period.   Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only):   12-markers test:  just whets your appetite for more testing.  About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ]  Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes.   25-markers test:  about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-)   32-markers test:  helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections.  A decent test, but has too many gaps.   67-markers test:  the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up.   111-markers test:  we are still working out the value of this upgrade.  So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations.  If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful.   Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA.  This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison.  This takes more time in addition to more money.   Good hunting,   Cliff.

Mark,   Ach, thanks for spotting my typo.  Yes, it should be 37 markers!  I've got a wee bit of egg on my face now ;-)  lol...got to wipe it off somehow :-)   Now comes my excuse - arthritis.  I've bought Dragon software and installed it.  I only need to start using it - got to get over the initial "software shock"...lol...  I am making far too many errors, so much so that my wpm are probably down from 60 to 10, not good...   Cliff. From: Mark Sutherland-Fisher (HFH) <[email protected]> To: 'Cliff. Johnston' <[email protected]>; 'Maisie Egger' <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2013 2:47 AM Subject: RE: Differing DNA tests Morning again, I concur with Cliff's assessment below though he missed out the 37 marker which is the minimum to assist in identifying a specific family grouping unless he was meaning 37 rather than 32. Some of our members have taken the test promoted by the Scotsman newspaper and operated by Scotlands DNA. The aim of this project is really just to identify the haplogroup and therefore origins of the modern Scottish population. It doesn’t produce any of the STR markers which is what tells 2 men if and how closely they are related (via 12, 25, 37, 67 or 111 distinct markers). There are a few exceptions in the Scotlands DNA project and that only occurs where a man has such a rare Haplogroup within the Scottish population that the statistical chances of them being related correspondingly increase. For example my uncle from Nairn and 2 other Sutherlands, one from Biggar and the other originally from Thurso were an exact match. The report each received was identical except for their names. However having a Flemish Haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b commonly known as P312 or DF27, Scotlands DNA state in the report that they do not test most of the downside markers because they are so rare among the Scottish population. In fact it is substantially less than 1%. The other 2 have also taken the FTDNA test. They are the original and current default result against whom I measure all others. They match with one another at 20 generations at 80.92%. To me this indicates one is descended from the Sutherland of Forse family and the other from the Sutherland of Duffus family. They have to go back 20-22 generations to Kenneth 4th Earl of Sutherland whose eldest son's younger son founded the Forse line and whose younger son founded the Duffus line. I am sure other tests are good in their own way but as someone who has not taken a test (since my YDNA is English) but is working with the results, there is currently no test nearly as good as the FTDNA one. Cheers Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cliff. Johnston Sent: 07 October 2013 22:20 To: Maisie Egger; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Maisie,   We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-)   As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA.  They have the largest and best support system.  Period.   Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only):   12-markers test:  just whets your appetite for more testing.  About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ]  Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes.   25-markers test:  about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-)   32-markers test:  helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections.  A decent test, but has too many gaps.   67-markers test:  the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up.   111-markers test:  we are still working out the value of this upgrade.  So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations.  If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful.   Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA.  This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison.  This takes more time in addition to more money.   Good hunting,   Cliff.

Morning again, I concur with Cliff's assessment below though he missed out the 37 marker which is the minimum to assist in identifying a specific family grouping unless he was meaning 37 rather than 32. Some of our members have taken the test promoted by the Scotsman newspaper and operated by Scotlands DNA. The aim of this project is really just to identify the haplogroup and therefore origins of the modern Scottish population. It doesn’t produce any of the STR markers which is what tells 2 men if and how closely they are related (via 12, 25, 37, 67 or 111 distinct markers). There are a few exceptions in the Scotlands DNA project and that only occurs where a man has such a rare Haplogroup within the Scottish population that the statistical chances of them being related correspondingly increase. For example my uncle from Nairn and 2 other Sutherlands, one from Biggar and the other originally from Thurso were an exact match. The report each received was identical except for their names. However having a Flemish Haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b commonly known as P312 or DF27, Scotlands DNA state in the report that they do not test most of the downside markers because they are so rare among the Scottish population. In fact it is substantially less than 1%. The other 2 have also taken the FTDNA test. They are the original and current default result against whom I measure all others. They match with one another at 20 generations at 80.92%. To me this indicates one is descended from the Sutherland of Forse family and the other from the Sutherland of Duffus family. They have to go back 20-22 generations to Kenneth 4th Earl of Sutherland whose eldest son's younger son founded the Forse line and whose younger son founded the Duffus line. I am sure other tests are good in their own way but as someone who has not taken a test (since my YDNA is English) but is working with the results, there is currently no test nearly as good as the FTDNA one. Cheers Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cliff. Johnston Sent: 07 October 2013 22:20 To: Maisie Egger; [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 165 Maisie,   We get what we pay for with Y-DNA testing, only the testing companies do not tell us that ;-)   As I have said elsewhere many times, the only company worth testing with is FTDNA.  They have the largest and best support system.  Period.   Here is my take on the different tests available (my opinion only):   12-markers test:  just whets your appetite for more testing.  About the only ones who get useful information from this test are National Geographic and the I haplogroup Johnston/es [said tongue-in-cheek as we do have a very distinctive Y-DNA signature - I can tell if you are kin by looking at the first 4 markers - the others are a bonus ;-) ]  Not worth the effort to take, IMO, for genealogical purposes.   25-markers test:  about as useless as the old saying that my grandfather used about bulls, teats and how worthless they were on a bull ;-)   32-markers test:  helpful to eliminate more distant connections and reaffirm closer connections.  A decent test, but has too many gaps.   67-markers test:  the best test to take initially as it will put you on a family branch if enough have tested in your haplogroup for branches to start showing up.   111-markers test:  we are still working out the value of this upgrade.  So far it appears to be very useful for sorting close kin, say within 2-6 generations.  If enough have this number of markers tested in your haplogroup it is very helpful.   Should you test with any other company than FTDNA, you need to be aware that the alternative-company tests do not include all of the same markers as those done by FTDNA.  This means that in order for one to compare an alternative-source company's Y-DNA results to that of FTDNA's results one will have to buy an additional make-up test from FTDNA in order to make a valid comparison.  This takes more time in addition to more money.   Good hunting,   Cliff.