I too have a sister in law with Russian Jewish heritage who is a fair-skinned redhead. I find this conversation interesting! Haven't I heard someplace that Celts come from Central Europe, near/in Hungary? Or did the Vikings simply penetrate that far, via the rivers? Btw, the French word "normand" is related to Northmen, or Norsemen, a tip of the hat to their Viking roots. And it was a Norman, Guillaume le Conquerant, aka William the Conqueror, who defeated Harold in 1066 and began the latinization of the English language. Message: 9 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:23:01 -0500 From: Carolyn Perkes <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Well, I don't know what to say. My grandfather, mother's father, born in Essex England, had red hair and freckles. Didn't pass those genes (or that gene) on to his immediate descendants, most of whom had/have brown hair. My sister-in-law with Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots has red hair and freckles. My daughter has Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots and she is a blonde. But then my dad, who was English and Scottish, was also a blond. None of my immediate Scottish relatives had red hair or freckles. Carole Kenney Upper Merion Supervisor Upper Merion Tricentennial Year 2013 "Preserving the Past, Shaping the Future" On Nov 30, 2013, at 12:27 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:23:01 -0500 > From: Carolyn Perkes <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > Well, I don't know what to say. My grandfather, mother's father, born in Essex England, had red hair and freckles. Didn't pass those genes (or that gene) on to his immediate descendants, most of whom had/have brown hair. > > My sister-in-law with Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots has red hair and freckles. > > My daughter has Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots and she is a blonde. But then my dad, who was English and Scottish, was also a blond. > > None of my immediate Scottish relatives had red hair or freckles.

You know, it never even occurred to me to point out that there are multiple known genes for red hair, and that the trait sporadically pops up in deepest Africa and among isolated tribes in the Pacific Ocean. I stuck to the history. Everyone knows that red hair was a Celtic trait as well as a Norse trait. If you won’t believe that, it seemed like there’s no point in mentioning they may not even have the same genes. Historically those groups are not as distinct as people want to think. Both have part Indo-European steppe people roots, and for much of their history the two peoples shared most of Europe. Most of northern, western and central Europe and some parts of Eastern Europe were once part of the Celtic empire, even modern Denmark. Celts were specifically drawn to Denmark by the amber trade, where they and native people formed a common elite along the western and southern shores of the Baltic sea. Their group extended into Scandinavia. Dora From: Cliff. Johnston Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 9:52 PM To: Dora Smith ; iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Sometime ago I copied an article on red hair that also discusses other hair colors. If anyone would like a copy of it, email me privately, and I will send it to you as an attachment. Cliff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: iain.mcneill <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair. It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them. If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land. Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1. I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

My brother's small 1700 or so year old north Germanic haplogroup I1 STR marker cluster contains a Jewish family. Have you all never heard of a nonpaternity event? (No, probably not, because you insist on thinking that only Vikings had red hair. Y'all sound like my mother insisting that she knew where I got this and that; it was quite a surprise to find that I got half the known genes for asthma from both of my parents.) They were particularly common among Jews, just as among American Blacks, on account of the high historical level of abuse against these people. Among Jews, that is a theory of why in an intensely patriarchal culture, Jewish identity is reckoned through the mother. The paternal line can't be relied on to be Jewish. When I was studying to convert to Judaism, one of my rabbis had a red headed wife. I never even wondered. Certainly didn't ask. Answer is probably buried in history, and if it isn't, they SURE wouldn't want it noticed. The Vikings did penetrate the river system of western Russia. Germanic people settled all over eastern Europe and the southwestern Asian steppes. Dora -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 11:00 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] Red hair I too have a sister in law with Russian Jewish heritage who is a fair-skinned redhead. I find this conversation interesting! Haven't I heard someplace that Celts come from Central Europe, near/in Hungary? Or did the Vikings simply penetrate that far, via the rivers? Btw, the French word "normand" is related to Northmen, or Norsemen, a tip of the hat to their Viking roots. And it was a Norman, Guillaume le Conquerant, aka William the Conqueror, who defeated Harold in 1066 and began the latinization of the English language. Message: 9 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:23:01 -0500 From: Carolyn Perkes <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Well, I don't know what to say. My grandfather, mother's father, born in Essex England, had red hair and freckles. Didn't pass those genes (or that gene) on to his immediate descendants, most of whom had/have brown hair. My sister-in-law with Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots has red hair and freckles. My daughter has Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots and she is a blonde. But then my dad, who was English and Scottish, was also a blond. None of my immediate Scottish relatives had red hair or freckles. Carole Kenney Upper Merion Supervisor Upper Merion Tricentennial Year 2013 "Preserving the Past, Shaping the Future" On Nov 30, 2013, at 12:27 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:23:01 -0500 > From: Carolyn Perkes <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > Well, I don't know what to say. My grandfather, mother's father, born in > Essex England, had red hair and freckles. Didn't pass those genes (or that > gene) on to his immediate descendants, most of whom had/have brown hair. > > My sister-in-law with Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots has red > hair and freckles. > > My daughter has Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots and she is a > blonde. But then my dad, who was English and Scottish, was also a blond. > > None of my immediate Scottish relatives had red hair or freckles. ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

HMmmm I thought he was William the Norman Conqueror Regards Col

Morning all, I have travelled extensively across Scandinavian and Baltic countries and I would say by far the majority are blond haired certainly not dark haired. Red hair is traditionally associated with the celtic peoples and indeed the Scotlands DNA project has specifically introduced a test for the "red hair" gene as part of its portfolio because Scots are among the most prone nations in the world to have red hair just as Scotland is the home of the debilitating illness multiple sclerosis with the highest per capita in the world being in the Northern Isles. The reason the red hair gene is being tested for within DNA projects is because there are apparently far more people who carry the gene than actually demonstrate it by having red hair. Being "ginger" is now very trendy and indeed there have been several gatherings recently of red headed people to try and break various records. Meanwhile my thoughts go to the people of Glasgow following the terrible police helicopter crash last night which landed on the roof of the packed Clutha Vaults pub on the Broomielaw just after 10pm last night. The pilot of the stricken copter must have behaved very heroically because he could have hit any of the surrounding housing and clearly the flat roof of the bar was his best hope of avoiding a catastrophe. There are some dead, presumably including the pilot and 2 police passengers. One of the heroes was the Labour MP Jim Murphy who was nearby and rushed to help pull survivors from the wreckage as did very many passers-by. Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: 29 November 2013 20:08 To: iain.mcneill; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair. It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them. If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land. Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1. I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora

Dora et al I happened to watch a bit of the Scottish Open Badminton Championships on TV last night, and one of the matches featured a Swedish player who had bright carrot-red hair. I have also noticed that golden-red hair is not uncommon amongst the Germans, Boris Becker being one example Rhoda -----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 8:08 PM To: iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States.

The Australians call a person with red hair, a BLUEY!! Now, figure that one out..??????

Well, I don't know what to say. My grandfather, mother's father, born in Essex England, had red hair and freckles. Didn't pass those genes (or that gene) on to his immediate descendants, most of whom had/have brown hair. My sister-in-law with Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots has red hair and freckles. My daughter has Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots and she is a blonde. But then my dad, who was English and Scottish, was also a blond. None of my immediate Scottish relatives had red hair or freckles. Just to say, I would not make generalizations about the geographical origins of red, blond or brown hair and frankly, I fail to see what this has to do with family history. So can't we just drop it? http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/25/mapping-redheads-which-country-has-the-most Carolyn On 2013-11-29, at 7:33 PM, Rhoda Overson <[email protected]> wrote: > Dora et al > > I happened to watch a bit of the Scottish Open Badminton Championships on TV > last night, and one of the matches featured a Swedish player who had bright > carrot-red hair. I have also noticed that golden-red hair is not uncommon > amongst the Germans, Boris Becker being one example > > Rhoda > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dora Smith > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 8:08 PM > To: iain.mcneill ; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots > > I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into > British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed > to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I > frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in > Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short > and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly > associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. >

Now, I heard that 20% of Ireland is descended from a single 5th century king, but... wow! Dora -----Original Message----- From: Bob & Jean Elliott Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 3:43 PM To: Dora Smith ; iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I thought British red hair was attributed to Norman the Conqueror, 1066. Bob Elliott -----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 3:08 PM To: iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair. It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them. If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land. Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1. I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

I never said NO Scandinavians had red hair! I said it doesn't appear to be a Scandinavian trait! As for Germany, to the south it was the Celtic heartland, and most of it was Celtic territory. Dora -----Original Message----- From: Rhoda Overson Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 6:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Dora et al I happened to watch a bit of the Scottish Open Badminton Championships on TV last night, and one of the matches featured a Swedish player who had bright carrot-red hair. I have also noticed that golden-red hair is not uncommon amongst the Germans, Boris Becker being one example Rhoda -----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 8:08 PM To: iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Sometime ago I copied an article on red hair that also discusses other hair colors.  If anyone would like a copy of it, email me privately, and I will send it to you as an attachment. Cliff. ________________________________ From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: iain.mcneill <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory.  I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse.  The Norse are thought of has having red hair.  Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair.  It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them.  If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land.  Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1.  I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would  be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora

Denmark has become a real hodge-podge of haplogroups - different peoples of different ethnicities.  One would have a difficult time finding someone whose heritage goes much beyond a century or two. Cliff. ________________________________ From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: iain.mcneill <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory.  I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse.  The Norse are thought of has having red hair.  Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair.  It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them.  If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land.  Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1.  I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would  be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora -----Original Message----- From: iain.mcneill Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Hi folks To add to the difficulties... The Norsemen made it from Skye as far as Dublin, as well as the Isle of Man. If they settled, they took local wives, if not, they often took local women with them back to the Norse countries. Skol Iain On 25/11/2013 06:16, Dora Smith wrote: > I think red hair was often a Celtic trait as well. > > Dora > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Maisie Egger > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 10:25 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots > > http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/expert-argues-vikings-carried-redhead-gene-to-scotland-1-3200177 > > ...which makes chasing possible Norse connections more than a minor > challenge as my father had carroty/ginger hair, as did his cousin;  my > young > sister had the most gorgeous Titian red hair, whereas mine was a very > pretty > combination of honey, strawberry and auburn, with a perfect complexion to > go > along with the hair colourimg.  All gone, gone, gone in my “senior years,” > drat! > > May father’s forebears had their roots in the Dumfries and Galloway, > Southwest Scotland, where the Vikings had an impact. > > My husband insists I have Viking blood because of my colouring and shape > of > my fine “aristocratic” nose! > > The woman who got me interested in DNA research insists that my surname > has > Irish roots, whilst I argue otherwise...so maybe I am right after all that > my surname has Danish/Scandinavian origins and not just going by the > colour > of my hair! > > At the end of the day we are all Jock Tamson’s bairns --- all John Thomson’s > children, meaning that we are all the same under the skin. > > Maisie > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. > Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on > the > following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on > the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/   ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online:  http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I thought British red hair was attributed to Norman the Conqueror, 1066. Bob Elliott -----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 3:08 PM To: iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair. It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them. If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land. Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1. I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora

I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair. It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them. If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land. Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1. I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora -----Original Message----- From: iain.mcneill Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Hi folks To add to the difficulties... The Norsemen made it from Skye as far as Dublin, as well as the Isle of Man. If they settled, they took local wives, if not, they often took local women with them back to the Norse countries. Skol Iain On 25/11/2013 06:16, Dora Smith wrote: > I think red hair was often a Celtic trait as well. > > Dora > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Maisie Egger > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 10:25 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots > > http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/expert-argues-vikings-carried-redhead-gene-to-scotland-1-3200177 > > ...which makes chasing possible Norse connections more than a minor > challenge as my father had carroty/ginger hair, as did his cousin; my > young > sister had the most gorgeous Titian red hair, whereas mine was a very > pretty > combination of honey, strawberry and auburn, with a perfect complexion to > go > along with the hair colourimg. All gone, gone, gone in my “senior years,” > drat! > > May father’s forebears had their roots in the Dumfries and Galloway, > Southwest Scotland, where the Vikings had an impact. > > My husband insists I have Viking blood because of my colouring and shape > of > my fine “aristocratic” nose! > > The woman who got me interested in DNA research insists that my surname > has > Irish roots, whilst I argue otherwise...so maybe I am right after all that > my surname has Danish/Scandinavian origins and not just going by the > colour > of my hair! > > At the end of the day we are all Jock Tamson’s bairns --- all John Thomson’s > children, meaning that we are all the same under the skin. > > Maisie > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. > Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on > the > following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on > the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Weren't the Normans just another set of Vikings who had lingered in northern France for a few generations? Ken Harrison North Vancouver, Canada -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob & Jean Elliott Sent: 29-Nov-13 1:44 PM To: Dora Smith; iain.mcneill; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I thought British red hair was attributed to Norman the Conqueror, 1066. Bob Elliott -----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 3:08 PM To: iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair. It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them. If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land. Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1. I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ruth, Could it possibly be Ditto Ground? i.e. fees for the cost of the ground where the lair would be dug. I know I had to pay both a couple of years ago for a new lair. But any subsequent burials would only incur the internment fees. Jack -------------------------------- >>This is a quotation re a burial & I am wondering what "Do Grd" means? >From the Dumbarton Cemetery Cash book: "To Cash from Mr. Lang Lang for interment fee for the following" and on 27th March "to cash from Hugh Hagen for interment fees Do Grd." Any help appreciated. Ruth

Hi Ruth I suspect it is "Do" which is an abbreviation for Ditto, and means "same as above" So Do Grd I would interpret as same as above interment fees, for Ground Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 28/11/2013 16:06, [email protected] wrote: > This is a quotation re a burial & I am wondering what "Do Grd" means? > >>From the Dumbarton Cemetery Cash book: > "To Cash from Mr. Lang Lang for interment fee for the following" and on 27th > March "to cash from Hugh Hagen for interment fees Do Grd." > > Any help appreciated. > > Ruth

Ruth, I think you will find, if you look at the full page, that "Do" means "ditto entry in line above". I suspect that "Grd" means "ground", but I do not know the context of your entry. What is stated at the top of the page columns? Ken Harrison North Vancouver, Canada -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: 28-Nov-13 8:07 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] Burial Notation This is a quotation re a burial & I am wondering what "Do Grd" means? >From the Dumbarton Cemetery Cash book: "To Cash from Mr. Lang Lang for interment fee for the following" and on 27th March "to cash from Hugh Hagen for interment fees Do Grd." Any help appreciated. Ruth ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This is a quotation re a burial & I am wondering what "Do Grd" means? >From the Dumbarton Cemetery Cash book: "To Cash from Mr. Lang Lang for interment fee for the following" and on 27th March "to cash from Hugh Hagen for interment fees Do Grd." Any help appreciated. Ruth

Hi folks To add to the difficulties... The Norsemen made it from Skye as far as Dublin, as well as the Isle of Man. If they settled, they took local wives, if not, they often took local women with them back to the Norse countries. Skol Iain On 25/11/2013 06:16, Dora Smith wrote: > I think red hair was often a Celtic trait as well. > > Dora > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Maisie Egger > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 10:25 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots > > http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/expert-argues-vikings-carried-redhead-gene-to-scotland-1-3200177 > > ...which makes chasing possible Norse connections more than a minor > challenge as my father had carroty/ginger hair, as did his cousin; my young > sister had the most gorgeous Titian red hair, whereas mine was a very pretty > combination of honey, strawberry and auburn, with a perfect complexion to go > along with the hair colourimg. All gone, gone, gone in my “senior years,” > drat! > > May father’s forebears had their roots in the Dumfries and Galloway, > Southwest Scotland, where the Vikings had an impact. > > My husband insists I have Viking blood because of my colouring and shape of > my fine “aristocratic” nose! > > The woman who got me interested in DNA research insists that my surname has > Irish roots, whilst I argue otherwise...so maybe I am right after all that > my surname has Danish/Scandinavian origins and not just going by the colour > of my hair! > > At the end of the day we are all Jock Tamson’s bairns --- all John Thomson’s > children, meaning that we are all the same under the skin. > > Maisie > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. > Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the > following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message