Make a liar out of me. See http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html, and an article by Nicholas Wade in the New York Times, Oct 8, 2013. Worldwide, most Jewish male lineages originated in the Middle East. However, most female lineages resemble the local population. Ashkenazi Jews are overwhelmingly descended from European women, particularly the half who are descended from three haplogroup K women (all major subclades) and N1b2. As nearly as the roots of these now isolated lineages can be pinned down, they were all over Europe. Typically they date to 2.3 or 1.5 thousand years ago. Researchers think that most likely single Jewish men moved into communities as traders or whatever, and married and converted local women. There were subsequent founder effects (which requires a fairly isolated population to become established). The only thing I can find on medieval converts from Judaism to Christianity, is a whole bunch of ranting discussion almost exclusively on very strange Jewish-Christian web sites, about mass conversions by pagan Khazars to Judaism. They were trying to avoid their empire being swallowed by Moslems and Christians. However Wade and Richards et al both mention the idea. The DNA simply doesn’t support the idea; for instance, the Y DNA is Middle Eastern, and very little of the mitochondrial DNA is from the north Caucasus. So, evidently, Jews are really Jewish, so they do look like just about anybody. Dora From: Cliff. Johnston Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2013 1:14 PM To: Dora Smith ; [email protected] ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Red hair Dora, One needs to keep in mind that Judaism before WWII had made deep inroads into Europe and converts from Christianity had become very common, so much so that the R.C. and Orthodox Churches felt threatened. European converts from Christianity probably accounted for all of the blue-eyed Jews and Lord knows how many of the red-haired Jews. It gets complicated ;-) Cliff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Red hair My brother's small 1700 or so year old north Germanic haplogroup I1 STR marker cluster contains a Jewish family. Have you all never heard of a nonpaternity event? (No, probably not, because you insist on thinking that only Vikings had red hair. Y'all sound like my mother insisting that she knew where I got this and that; it was quite a surprise to find that I got half the known genes for asthma from both of my parents.) They were particularly common among Jews, just as among American Blacks, on account of the high historical level of abuse against these people. Among Jews, that is a theory of why in an intensely patriarchal culture, Jewish identity is reckoned through the mother. The paternal line can't be relied on to be Jewish. When I was studying to convert to Judaism, one of my rabbis had a red headed wife. I never even wondered. Certainly didn't ask. Answer is probably buried in history, and if it isn't, they SURE wouldn't want it noticed. The Vikings did penetrate the river system of western Russia. Germanic people settled all over eastern Europe and the southwestern Asian steppes. Dora -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 11:00 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] Red hair I too have a sister in law with Russian Jewish heritage who is a fair-skinned redhead. I find this conversation interesting! Haven't I heard someplace that Celts come from Central Europe, near/in Hungary? Or did the Vikings simply penetrate that far, via the rivers? Btw, the French word "normand" is related to Northmen, or Norsemen, a tip of the hat to their Viking roots. And it was a Norman, Guillaume le Conquerant, aka William the Conqueror, who defeated Harold in 1066 and began the latinization of the English language. Message: 9 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:23:01 -0500 From: Carolyn Perkes <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Well, I don't know what to say. My grandfather, mother's father, born in Essex England, had red hair and freckles. Didn't pass those genes (or that gene) on to his immediate descendants, most of whom had/have brown hair. My sister-in-law with Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots has red hair and freckles. My daughter has Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots and she is a blonde. But then my dad, who was English and Scottish, was also a blond. None of my immediate Scottish relatives had red hair or freckles. Carole Kenney Upper Merion Supervisor Upper Merion Tricentennial Year 2013 "Preserving the Past, Shaping the Future" On Nov 30, 2013, at 12:27 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:23:01 -0500 > From: Carolyn Perkes <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > Well, I don't know what to say. My grandfather, mother's father, born in > Essex England, had red hair and freckles. Didn't pass those genes (or that > gene) on to his immediate descendants, most of whom had/have brown hair. > > My sister-in-law with Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots has red > hair and freckles. > > My daughter has Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots and she is a > blonde. But then my dad, who was English and Scottish, was also a blond. > > None of my immediate Scottish relatives had red hair or freckles. ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/ ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. 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Jews are an ethnic group. Historically they have been an exclusive group, using attachments to unique, exclusivist rules and rituals, to separate themselves from outsiders. I learned my Jewish history while studying to become Jewish, which is something they allow but frown on. In some Jewish traditional circles, my children would be considered bastards! There could be conflicting information that Jews themselves did not hand down. Dora -----Original Message----- From: nautakat Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Judaism is a religion, is it not???? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: Sunday, 1 December 2013 4:38 AM To: Cliff. Johnston; iain.mcneill; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots You know, it never even occurred to me to point out that there are multiple known genes for red hair, and that the trait sporadically pops up in deepest Africa and among isolated tribes in the Pacific Ocean. I stuck to the history. Everyone knows that red hair was a Celtic trait as well as a Norse trait. If you won’t believe that, it seemed like there’s no point in mentioning they may not even have the same genes. Historically those groups are not as distinct as people want to think. Both have part Indo-European steppe people roots, and for much of their history the two peoples shared most of Europe. Most of northern, western and central Europe and some parts of Eastern Europe were once part of the Celtic empire, even modern Denmark. Celts were specifically drawn to Denmark by the amber trade, where they and native people formed a common elite along the western and southern shores of the Baltic sea. Their group extended into Scandinavia. Dora From: Cliff. Johnston Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 9:52 PM To: Dora Smith ; iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Sometime ago I copied an article on red hair that also discusses other hair colors. If anyone would like a copy of it, email me privately, and I will send it to you as an attachment. Cliff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: iain.mcneill <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair. It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them. If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land. Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1. I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. 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Well, Indo-Europeans passed through there, and the Neolithic got there. But it would still help to know what haplogroups are there that are not European. R1a is specifically from the Black Sea region, more or less; it extended across the steppes, and is a recognized Indo-European marker. The way Norse legend goes, it should be Asian. Any place where the Neolithic went is going to have a certain amount of less common first farmer DNA as well as common first farmer DNA. It was centered around southeastern Europe and southwestern Asia, the Black Sea region, and the Mediterranean, but it included elements from farther south, such as the Middle East. Dora From: Cliff. Johnston Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2013 1:10 PM To: Dora Smith Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Dora, A couple of years ago I looked at Y-DNA results for Danes in Denmark. I was amazed at the number of haplogroups present that are not European. This pretty much supported various statements made in several books that I had read. Whatever "pure" Viking lines may have been there at one time, it was a long, long time ago. Cliff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Cliff: I’m fascinated. I knew that Denmark is by deep to dark age history part Celtic, part German, and part Norse, and the DNA is suitably mixed, but I wasn’t aware that it would be hard to find someone whose heritage goes back much beyond a century or two. What specifically are you talking about? I’m not arguing, now... much of the history of Scandinavia is fairly amazing. I want to know what you know that I didn’t find out yet. Dora From: Cliff. Johnston Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 9:36 PM To: Dora Smith ; iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Denmark has become a real hodge-podge of haplogroups - different peoples of different ethnicities. One would have a difficult time finding someone whose heritage goes much beyond a century or two. Cliff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: iain.mcneill <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair. It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them. If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land. Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1. I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora -----Original Message----- From: iain.mcneill Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Hi folks To add to the difficulties... The Norsemen made it from Skye as far as Dublin, as well as the Isle of Man. If they settled, they took local wives, if not, they often took local women with them back to the Norse countries. Skol Iain On 25/11/2013 06:16, Dora Smith wrote: > I think red hair was often a Celtic trait as well. > > Dora > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Maisie Egger > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 10:25 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots > > http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/expert-argues-vikings-carried-redhead-gene-to-scotland-1-3200177 > > ....which makes chasing possible Norse connections more than a minor > challenge as my father had carroty/ginger hair, as did his cousin; my > young > sister had the most gorgeous Titian red hair, whereas mine was a very > pretty > combination of honey, strawberry and auburn, with a perfect complexion to > go > along with the hair colourimg. All gone, gone, gone in my “senior years,” > drat! > > May father’s forebears had their roots in the Dumfries and Galloway, > Southwest Scotland, where the Vikings had an impact. > > My husband insists I have Viking blood because of my colouring and shape > of > my fine “aristocratic” nose! > > The woman who got me interested in DNA research insists that my surname > has > Irish roots, whilst I argue otherwise...so maybe I am right after all that > my surname has Danish/Scandinavian origins and not just going by the > colour > of my hair! > > At the end of the day we are all Jock Tamson’s bairns --- all John Thomson’s > children, meaning that we are all the same under the skin. > > Maisie > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. > Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on > the > following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on > the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. 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Converts from Christianity had become common? Cliff, I need more information on what you are talking about. There was a time when Hellenized members of the mystery cults, all over the Near East and not of Jewish background, were greatly drawn to Judaism by its history and community organization, but they didn’t easily drop their mythology and rituals, and as far as I know, their descendants are known as Christians. Of course over the long millenia women must have sometimes married into Jewish communities and been accepted, it just happened a lot less than among other groups, unless there was a phase of Jewish history that modern Jews have cleverly concealed. Dora From: Cliff. Johnston Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2013 1:14 PM To: Dora Smith ; [email protected] ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Red hair Dora, One needs to keep in mind that Judaism before WWII had made deep inroads into Europe and converts from Christianity had become very common, so much so that the R.C. and Orthodox Churches felt threatened. European converts from Christianity probably accounted for all of the blue-eyed Jews and Lord knows how many of the red-haired Jews. It gets complicated ;-) Cliff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Red hair My brother's small 1700 or so year old north Germanic haplogroup I1 STR marker cluster contains a Jewish family. Have you all never heard of a nonpaternity event? (No, probably not, because you insist on thinking that only Vikings had red hair. Y'all sound like my mother insisting that she knew where I got this and that; it was quite a surprise to find that I got half the known genes for asthma from both of my parents.) They were particularly common among Jews, just as among American Blacks, on account of the high historical level of abuse against these people. Among Jews, that is a theory of why in an intensely patriarchal culture, Jewish identity is reckoned through the mother. The paternal line can't be relied on to be Jewish. When I was studying to convert to Judaism, one of my rabbis had a red headed wife. I never even wondered. Certainly didn't ask. Answer is probably buried in history, and if it isn't, they SURE wouldn't want it noticed. The Vikings did penetrate the river system of western Russia. Germanic people settled all over eastern Europe and the southwestern Asian steppes. Dora -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 11:00 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] Red hair I too have a sister in law with Russian Jewish heritage who is a fair-skinned redhead. I find this conversation interesting! Haven't I heard someplace that Celts come from Central Europe, near/in Hungary? Or did the Vikings simply penetrate that far, via the rivers? Btw, the French word "normand" is related to Northmen, or Norsemen, a tip of the hat to their Viking roots. And it was a Norman, Guillaume le Conquerant, aka William the Conqueror, who defeated Harold in 1066 and began the latinization of the English language. Message: 9 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:23:01 -0500 From: Carolyn Perkes <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Well, I don't know what to say. My grandfather, mother's father, born in Essex England, had red hair and freckles. Didn't pass those genes (or that gene) on to his immediate descendants, most of whom had/have brown hair. My sister-in-law with Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots has red hair and freckles. My daughter has Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots and she is a blonde. But then my dad, who was English and Scottish, was also a blond. None of my immediate Scottish relatives had red hair or freckles. Carole Kenney Upper Merion Supervisor Upper Merion Tricentennial Year 2013 "Preserving the Past, Shaping the Future" On Nov 30, 2013, at 12:27 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:23:01 -0500 > From: Carolyn Perkes <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > Well, I don't know what to say. My grandfather, mother's father, born in > Essex England, had red hair and freckles. Didn't pass those genes (or that > gene) on to his immediate descendants, most of whom had/have brown hair. > > My sister-in-law with Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots has red > hair and freckles. > > My daughter has Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots and she is a > blonde. But then my dad, who was English and Scottish, was also a blond. > > None of my immediate Scottish relatives had red hair or freckles. ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. 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LOL. They came from the Middle East. In the 16th century BC, the predominant ethnic group was from Asia, but they had dark hair. Some Indo-Aryans did move in, but I don't know that they were blond and blue eyed, though one thing they markedly did was play the harp. The people we know as Jews were a blend of these people. What happened is that over the millenia, there was a lot of cross breeding. Jews were a fairly exclusive people. But Jewish women were often raped. They believe that this is why they still reckon descent through the woman. So blond and red hair are not Jewish traits, but they are definitely common among Jews. Nevertheless I don't think it's particularly rare for a Jew with red hair to get odd looks on some circles. It's hard to know what to completely make of Jewish DNA; something like half of all Jews have the mitochondrial DNA of four women who were definitely native to Eastern Europe and not the Middle East. The Jews passed through that area and spent some time there. I can't account for how the bloodlines of women who were not Jewish came to dominate their ethnic group. Clearly the non-Jewish roots of those women was soon forgotten! The presence of a Jewish family in my brother's Germanic Y DNA cluster proves that that woman didn't get her blond hair from the Middle East! Dora -----Original Message----- From: nautakat Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2013 3:58 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Thanks, Cliff. Yes, Judaism has beliefs and traditions – not DNA. Middle Eastern characteristics are being discussed perhaps – not Jewish. There are Jewish people of all nationalities, of all inherited characteristics, so it seems a bit nonsensical to discuss a ‘Jewish’ hair colour, or eye colour gene. Numerous characteristics in our recent thread are recessive genes. The same recessive gene from both parents is needed to result in a particular characteristic. Red hair is a recessive gene, so are blue eyes. Cheers, Kathryn From: Cliff. Johnston [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, 2 December 2013 6:05 AM To: nautakat; Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Yes, Judaism is a religion as used/developed by specific tribes or families of Semites in the Middle East initially. Technically, Christianity is a reformed Jewish movement. The pope still wears a yarmulke which is a Jewish tradition. Cliff. _____ From: nautakat <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Judaism is a religion, is it not???? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: Sunday, 1 December 2013 4:38 AM To: Cliff. Johnston; iain.mcneill; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots You know, it never even occurred to me to point out that there are multiple known genes for red hair, and that the trait sporadically pops up in deepest Africa and among isolated tribes in the Pacific Ocean. I stuck to the history. Everyone knows that red hair was a Celtic trait as well as a Norse trait. If you won’t believe that, it seemed like there’s no point in mentioning they may not even have the same genes. Historically those groups are not as distinct as people want to think. Both have part Indo-European steppe people roots, and for much of their history the two peoples shared most of Europe. Most of northern, western and central Europe and some parts of Eastern Europe were once part of the Celtic empire, even modern Denmark. Celts were specifically drawn to Denmark by the amber trade, where they and native people formed a common elite along the western and southern shores of the Baltic sea. Their group extended into Scandinavia. Dora From: Cliff. Johnston Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 9:52 PM To: Dora Smith ; iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Sometime ago I copied an article on red hair that also discusses other hair colors. If anyone would like a copy of it, email me privately, and I will send it to you as an attachment. Cliff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: iain.mcneill <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair. It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them. If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land. Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1. I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. 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I got Jeannette's reply to this, but she sent it privately to me, though probably by mistake. I can't assume that and post it back to the list. I dug out my copy of Saxons, Vikings, and Celts, which, like several British books on genetic anthropology, has two titles, one for Britain and one for the United States. My copy is Blood of the Isles. He does discuss hair color, in some depth. He reviews studies even older than his own; actually he reviews the history of genetic anthropology and sometimes silly attempts to classify people by physical traits into ethnic groups - over several chapters that take up different topics. Most of the chapter on skull snatchers is about hair and eye color. Now, he spends the most time on various indexes and categorization schemes that generally go from light to dark. Usually red hair is categorized with blond hair, and the only thing it is possible to get out of that is that some parts of Britain are richer in people with dark skin and hair. His map graphic of that is consistent with the fact that Neolithic migrants selectively settled the western coast of England and the eastern coast of Ireland; they sailed up from the coast of Spain, and came from the Middle East and southeastern Europe. The paleolithic people of western Europe should have been as dark; some of their descendants are American Indians, and dark skin and hair never went away in Europe. Now, the main theory he reviews argues that the indigenous Britons, Celts, and whatever were dark skinned. Of course there is no such thing as an indigenous Briton, and the Celts were immigrants. In fact, they migrated to Britain up to a few hundred years before the Saxons did, and from lands immediately south of them. He has LIGHT coloring in northern England the result of the Norman conquest, which is nonsense. Relatively few people came with the Normans, and they didn't tend to end up in northern England. He is evidently trying to tell us the Saxons and the Danes caused the light hair coloring. Dora -----Original Message----- From: Jeannette Walton Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 12:08 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] Saxons, Vikings, and Celts The above is the name of a book by Bryan Sykes. He is also the author of "The Seven Daughters of Eve" and "Adam's Curse". Husband has read it and tells me it is very descriptive of the origins of the various peoples who have made up the British Isles. Perhaps there is information about red heads, too. I guess I'll have to read it. This is not a commercial for this book. Has anyone else read this? Thanks, Jeannette ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Dora, One needs to keep in mind that Judaism before WWII had made deep inroads into Europe and converts from Christianity had become very common, so much so that the R.C. and Orthodox Churches felt threatened.  European converts from Christianity probably accounted for all of the blue-eyed Jews and Lord knows how many of the red-haired Jews.  It gets complicated ;-) Cliff.  ________________________________ From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Red hair My brother's small 1700 or so year old north Germanic haplogroup I1 STR marker cluster contains a Jewish family.  Have you all never heard of a nonpaternity event?  (No, probably not, because you insist on thinking that only Vikings had red hair.  Y'all sound like my mother insisting that she knew where I got this and that; it was quite a surprise to find that I got half the known genes for asthma from both of my parents.)  They were particularly common among Jews, just as among American Blacks, on account of the high historical level of abuse against these people.  Among Jews, that is a theory of why in an intensely patriarchal culture, Jewish identity is reckoned through the mother.  The paternal line can't be relied on to be Jewish. When I was studying to convert to Judaism, one of my rabbis had a red headed wife.  I never even wondered.  Certainly didn't ask.  Answer is probably buried in history, and if it isn't, they SURE wouldn't want it noticed. The Vikings did penetrate the river system of western Russia.  Germanic people settled all over eastern Europe and the southwestern Asian steppes. Dora -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 11:00 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] Red hair I too have a sister in law with Russian Jewish heritage who is a fair-skinned redhead. I find this conversation interesting! Haven't I heard someplace that Celts come from Central Europe, near/in Hungary?  Or did the Vikings simply penetrate that far, via the rivers? Btw, the French word "normand" is related to Northmen, or Norsemen, a tip of the hat to their Viking roots. And it was a Norman, Guillaume le Conquerant, aka William the Conqueror, who defeated Harold in 1066 and began the latinization of the English language. Message: 9 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:23:01 -0500 From: Carolyn Perkes <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Well, I don't know what to say. My grandfather, mother's father, born in Essex England, had red hair and freckles. Didn't pass those genes (or that gene) on to his immediate descendants, most of whom had/have brown hair. My sister-in-law with Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots has red hair and freckles. My daughter has Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots and she is a blonde. But then my dad, who was English and Scottish, was also a blond. None of my immediate Scottish relatives had red hair or freckles. Carole Kenney Upper Merion Supervisor Upper Merion Tricentennial Year 2013 "Preserving the Past, Shaping the Future" On Nov 30, 2013, at 12:27 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:23:01 -0500 > From: Carolyn Perkes <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > Well, I don't know what to say. My grandfather, mother's father, born in > Essex England, had red hair and freckles. Didn't pass those genes (or that > gene) on to his immediate descendants, most of whom had/have brown hair. > > My sister-in-law with Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots has red > hair and freckles. > > My daughter has Jewish eastern European and Icelandic roots and she is a > blonde. But then my dad, who was English and Scottish, was also a blond. > > None of my immediate Scottish relatives had red hair or freckles. ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com/   ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. 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Yes, Judaism is a religion as used/developed by specific tribes or families of Semites in the Middle East initially.  Technically, Christianity is a reformed Jewish movement.  The pope still wears a yarmulke which is a Jewish tradition. Cliff. ________________________________ From: nautakat <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Judaism is a religion, is it not???? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: Sunday, 1 December 2013 4:38 AM To: Cliff. Johnston; iain.mcneill; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots You know, it never even occurred to me to point out that there are multiple known genes for red hair, and that the trait sporadically pops up in deepest Africa and among isolated tribes in the Pacific Ocean.  I stuck to the history.  Everyone knows that red hair was a Celtic trait as well as a Norse trait.  If you won’t believe that, it seemed like there’s no point in mentioning they may not even have the same genes.  Historically those groups are not as distinct as people want to think.  Both have part Indo-European steppe people roots, and for much of their history the two peoples shared most of Europe.  Most of northern, western and central Europe and some parts of Eastern Europe were once part of the Celtic empire, even modern Denmark.  Celts were specifically drawn to Denmark by the amber trade, where they and native people formed a common elite along the western and southern shores of the Baltic sea.  Their group extended into Scandinavia.  Dora From: Cliff. Johnston Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 9:52 PM To: Dora Smith ; iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Sometime ago I copied an article on red hair that also discusses other hair colors.  If anyone would like a copy of it, email me privately, and I will send it to you as an attachment. Cliff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: iain.mcneill <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory.  I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse.  The Norse are thought of has having red hair.  Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair.  It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them.  If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land.  Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1.  I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would  be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com   ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online:  http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message   ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online:  http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Many thanks to Nivard and Jo Ann Nivard had a look at the page for me and definitely thinks it is PP, in the 1851 Census even though she is with family, she has Pauper in the occupation, (sorry Nivard, should have thought to go back and look at that again), so I think at least one of the P is for Pauper and perhaps the enumerator decided to make up his own thing and make it Parish Pauper or Poor Person At least I know I am on the right track for now. Many thanks Ailsa Ailsa Corlett [email protected] www.st.net.au/~ailsa alternative email if having trouble sending to my normal email is: [email protected] > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Nivard Ovington > Sent: Sunday, 1 December 2013 4:56 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Lanark] Need some ideas for OP or PP in occupation column > for 1841 Census for two Widows > > Hi Jo Ann > > They may well be right, however they state in their 1841 common > occupations section, that P. Pauper = Parish Pauper and that it is > derived from the instructions to the enumerator 1841 > > But there is no such instruction > > The only mention of "P" is for Pensioner in addition to Army or Navy > > I suspect the PP does stand for something like Parish Pauper or Parish > Poor or similar but its not a standard abbreviation > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 30/11/2013 18:31, Jo Ann Croft wrote: > > On the freecen.org.uk transcription of this census page, they have > > decided that it is PP and stands for Parish Pauper. > > > > Jo-Ann Croft > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier > message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on > the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to LANARK- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

Red hair colour is a recessive gene - not determined by one parent alone. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: Sunday, 1 December 2013 8:59 AM To: Jeannette Walton; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Saxons, Vikings, and Celts I read the book some time ago. There just might be something about redheads. Unfortunately the book is based on old and rather primitive research, and Bryan Sykes tends to oversimplify and sensationalize. Unless he discusses genetics of red hair in depth and gives them more than one origin, I'd not give it much credence. You can always google genetics of red hair! Dora -----Original Message----- From: Jeannette Walton Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 12:08 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] Saxons, Vikings, and Celts The above is the name of a book by Bryan Sykes. He is also the author of "The Seven Daughters of Eve" and "Adam's Curse". Husband has read it and tells me it is very descriptive of the origins of the various peoples who have made up the British Isles. Perhaps there is information about red heads, too. I guess I'll have to read it. This is not a commercial for this book. Has anyone else read this? Thanks, Jeannette ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Judaism is a religion, is it not???? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: Sunday, 1 December 2013 4:38 AM To: Cliff. Johnston; iain.mcneill; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots You know, it never even occurred to me to point out that there are multiple known genes for red hair, and that the trait sporadically pops up in deepest Africa and among isolated tribes in the Pacific Ocean. I stuck to the history. Everyone knows that red hair was a Celtic trait as well as a Norse trait. If you won’t believe that, it seemed like there’s no point in mentioning they may not even have the same genes. Historically those groups are not as distinct as people want to think. Both have part Indo-European steppe people roots, and for much of their history the two peoples shared most of Europe. Most of northern, western and central Europe and some parts of Eastern Europe were once part of the Celtic empire, even modern Denmark. Celts were specifically drawn to Denmark by the amber trade, where they and native people formed a common elite along the western and southern shores of the Baltic sea. Their group extended into Scandinavia. Dora From: Cliff. Johnston Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 9:52 PM To: Dora Smith ; iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Sometime ago I copied an article on red hair that also discusses other hair colors. If anyone would like a copy of it, email me privately, and I will send it to you as an attachment. Cliff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: iain.mcneill <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair. It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them. If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land. Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1. I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Although I am a Kiwi, a "blue" in verb form is to have a "fight". whether verbal or emotional or physical… it makes no difference, it is having a "blue"… To be a "bluey", means there is "red" in your blood and traditionally, this means to be a "fighter" at the drop of a hat. It gained precedence on the 19th Century goldfields as the red (or ginger-haired) men (usually from Ireland and no offence intended here) were usually very 'trigger-happy' to start any fisti-cuffs with those who usurped their claim or whatever. It gathered momentum in the two world wars in which both Kiwis and Aussies made huge reputations for themselves. The Australian 'Blue-Heeler' cattle dog is the epitome of a "bluey". Loyal, true and and dedicated to its owner (always assuming it has been trained by kindness etc.) but let anything threaten its "pack" and it is unsurpassable in courage, in dedication and in strength, not to mention intelligence (again, assuming it has been well trained). Gail Riddell On 30/11/2013, at 6:27 PM, <[email protected]> <[email protected]> wrote: > The Australians call a person with red hair, a BLUEY!! > > Now, figure that one out..?????? > > > > ------------------------------- > > WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] > > You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi I have downloaded from Scotlandspeople an 1841 Census in which the two Widows are have been classified with the code of either OP or PP in the occupation section. It is hard to read, Fine print and all occupations on the pages have a \ going through them. BTW Findmypast and Ancestry both have this recorded as PP, but looks more like an O P to me My Widow Gardner, aged 65, O P Yes living in the same address is also Widow Wood, aged 50, O P Yes I am familiar with lots of the codes eg FS etc for 1841 and had a look at a few web sites giving codes, but not this one. And it is not the "do" for ditto She may have had money left to her from her husband (cannot find a will at this stage) so was wondering if it could mean Old Pension, or even Old Person or Own Person, I suspect something to do with Pension or Pensioner. Definitely the last letter is a P, but the first letter is hard to make if O or P due to the line through them. Unfortunately there is no other Capital O on the page to compare it to anyone else seen this on the 1841 Census. BTW I have her on all other census after this time and even her death certificate. From 1851 Census she was living with family. Any ideas and help would be appreciated. Ailsa Corlett [email protected] www.st.net.au/~ailsa alternative email if having trouble sending to my normal email is: [email protected]

Hi Jo Ann They may well be right, however they state in their 1841 common occupations section, that P. Pauper = Parish Pauper and that it is derived from the instructions to the enumerator 1841 But there is no such instruction The only mention of "P" is for Pensioner in addition to Army or Navy I suspect the PP does stand for something like Parish Pauper or Parish Poor or similar but its not a standard abbreviation Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 30/11/2013 18:31, Jo Ann Croft wrote: > On the freecen.org.uk transcription of this census page, they have decided > that it is PP and stands for Parish Pauper. > > Jo-Ann Croft > >

Hi all Firstly thank you very much for the help I got while searching for James Dobbie of Glasgow, b,1872 and died in WW1, 20 July 1916 and buried at Fromelle. It has been a difficult case but many helped sort this one from the many. Finally confirmed his parents. The reason I am looking is to find a living descendant who may be a dna match to identify the soldier. Need some more help if anyone has any suggestions as have reached a block. . James' father was also James Dobbie, b abt 1827. He married three times. Jane Carpenter, Catherine Carroll and Sarah Carlton. He had 2 sons William J and Malcolm to his first wife (1852 and 53) in Glasgow. The family were funeral undertakers so that made them a little easier to track. James was born to wife no 2, who died after giving birth to male twins who did not survive. Dad remarried but then died the next year, so James was brought up by step mother with little input from family no 1. So soldier James' only hope for being identified seems to lie with his two older half brothers for Y dna or his mother Catherine Carroll's female relatives for Mt DNA. Otherwise have to try James senior's parents and see if they had. His parents were James Dobbie and Agnes Gillies Campbell. I have James' snr marriage and death certs. That's where I found the three wives. I think the half brothers had 11 children between them, William seems to have had William, Albert, George and Malcolm in the 1880s in Glasgow.. I don't seem to be able to track them. But I did find the two families on a journey to America in 1890, as far as I know they all returned. (I haven't yet looked at the female line but Catherine Carroll's parents were William Carroll and Sarah Harrigan.) So asking firstly - anyone got connections to any of these families? And then any advice about where to look. regards Marg OLeary Port Stephens NSW [email protected] also [email protected]

William McLelland Lennox(1864- ) born in Old Cumnock. In the later part of his life he lived in Glasgow where he and his sister Mary Lennox(1870- ) cared for the children of another sister Jessie Lennox(1868-1909) and her husband David Aiken. The children were Robert & George Aiken born about 1900. Robert was in the Merchant Navy. Both men married. Or so the family story goes?? I need help piecing things together. All info welcome. Thank you.

I read the book some time ago. There just might be something about redheads. Unfortunately the book is based on old and rather primitive research, and Bryan Sykes tends to oversimplify and sensationalize. Unless he discusses genetics of red hair in depth and gives them more than one origin, I'd not give it much credence. You can always google genetics of red hair! Dora -----Original Message----- From: Jeannette Walton Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 12:08 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] Saxons, Vikings, and Celts The above is the name of a book by Bryan Sykes. He is also the author of "The Seven Daughters of Eve" and "Adam's Curse". Husband has read it and tells me it is very descriptive of the origins of the various peoples who have made up the British Isles. Perhaps there is information about red heads, too. I guess I'll have to read it. This is not a commercial for this book. Has anyone else read this? Thanks, Jeannette ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

On the freecen.org.uk transcription of this census page, they have decided that it is PP and stands for Parish Pauper. Jo-Ann Croft > On 30/11/2013 12:24, Ailsa Corlett wrote: > > Hi I have downloaded from Scotlandspeople an 1841 Census in which the two > > Widows are have been classified with the code of either OP or PP in the > > occupation section. It is hard to read, Fine print and all occupations on > > the pages have a \ going through them. BTW Findmypast and Ancestry both > > have this recorded as PP, but looks more like an O P to me > > > > > > > > My Widow Gardner, aged 65, O P Yes > > > > living in the same address is also > > > > Widow Wood, aged 50, O P Yes > > >

The above is the name of a book by Bryan Sykes. He is also the author of "The Seven Daughters of Eve" and "Adam's Curse". Husband has read it and tells me it is very descriptive of the origins of the various peoples who have made up the British Isles. Perhaps there is information about red heads, too. I guess I'll have to read it. This is not a commercial for this book. Has anyone else read this? Thanks, Jeannette

Hi Ailsa As you have found there are no standard abbreviations in 1841 for OP or PP I have found on quite a few occasions the enumerator made it up as he went along A couple of suggestions In receiving a pension or annuity it would usually be Ind for independent means Out Pensioner Out Patient Out pauper All referring to receiving support from the parish But that is just guess work If you want to pass a copy of the image I am more than happy to take a look at it to give a more informed opinion Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 30/11/2013 12:24, Ailsa Corlett wrote: > Hi I have downloaded from Scotlandspeople an 1841 Census in which the two > Widows are have been classified with the code of either OP or PP in the > occupation section. It is hard to read, Fine print and all occupations on > the pages have a \ going through them. BTW Findmypast and Ancestry both > have this recorded as PP, but looks more like an O P to me > > > > My Widow Gardner, aged 65, O P Yes > > living in the same address is also > > Widow Wood, aged 50, O P Yes > > > > I am familiar with lots of the codes eg FS etc for 1841 and had a look at a > few web sites giving codes, but not this one. And it is not the "do" for > ditto > > > > She may have had money left to her from her husband (cannot find a will at > this stage) so was wondering if it could mean Old Pension, or even Old > Person or Own Person, I suspect something to do with Pension or Pensioner. > Definitely the last letter is a P, but the first letter is hard to make if O > or P due to the line through them. Unfortunately there is no other Capital O > on the page to compare it to > > > > anyone else seen this on the 1841 Census. > > > > BTW I have her on all other census after this time and even her death > certificate. From 1851 Census she was living with family.