I somehow kind of expected this thread to descend into the usual sort of "my opinion is better than yours" argument Would you all do everyone a favour and keep your respective political slants to yourselves The lists are no place for modern politics, whatever your particular bias Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

I think this thread has worn itself out. Nivard, you are absolutely right. Any further responses, especially in a political nature, need to be sent privately, if at all. Offenders can expect to be placed on "moderation" (your post will require administrator approval before being delivered)if this continues. Jim -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nivard Ovington Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 8:44 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] We ALL MOURN I somehow kind of expected this thread to descend into the usual sort of "my opinion is better than yours" argument Would you all do everyone a favour and keep your respective political slants to yourselves The lists are no place for modern politics, whatever your particular bias Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sorry -- contrary view here. Mandela was a terrorist, groomed from youth to overthrow his countries government. His statements at his trial amounted to a confession of his guilt. There are ample videos floating around showing the organization led by that man and his wife "necklacing" people by placing a gasoline soaked tire around them and setting it alight. He should be no more celebrated that any present day islamic who, for instance, cuts off a soldiers head in broad daylight on a public street. The main difference is that Mandela was able to play the media and become one if its darlings, similar to Arafat. His and his parties economic policies have taken what was once a prosperous nation and has it approaching the levels of Zaire Aparthied bad, Mandela worse. Mark Moeser [ps -- please keep politics of the genealogy list] In a message dated 12/6/2013 3:30:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Message: 1 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 17:14:54 -0800 From: <[email protected]> Subject: [Lanark] We ALL MOURN To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I am SURE, for the passing of NELSON MANDELA, 95 years old, & what he believed in, how he endured & how he how he managed his horrors! PEACE at last for him! Ruth ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 21:31:30 -0600 From: "Dora Smith" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Lanark] We ALL MOURN To: <[email protected]>, <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Nelson Mandela was a remarkable man. Dora -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] We ALL MOURN I am SURE, for the passing of NELSON MANDELA, 95 years old, & what he believed in, how he endured & how he how he managed his horrors! PEACE at last for him! Ruth

My grandmother was born in Glasgow as well, in 1902. I can only think that the people of Glasgow, who are also mourning a terrible loss, are an extraordinary, compassionate people. Carolyn On 2013-12-06, at 1:53 PM, Phil Alling <[email protected]> wrote: > Of-topic, maybe, but well worth reading. Particularly for me, since my grandmother was born in Glasgow. > > Phil > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisie Egger > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 22:47 > To: Dora Smith; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Lanark] We ALL MOURN > > From today's The Scotsman: > > “The people of Glasgow were the first in the world to confer on me the Freedom of the City at a time when I and my comrades in the ANC were imprisoned on Robben Island serving life sentences which, in apartheid South Africa, then meant imprisonment until death,” he said. > > “You, the people of Glasgow, pledged that you would not relax until I was free to receive this honour in person. I am deeply grateful to you and the anti-apartheid movement in Scotland for all your efforts to this end.” > > Mandela’s appearance in Glasgow that day epitomised the powerful bond forged between Scotland and the anti-apartheid movement over more than three decades and thousands of miles. > > In the years that followed his hard-won freedom, he made several visits to this country, and time and again, he spoke of his gratitude for the solidarity shown to him and his cause by ordinary Scots. > > The joyous rally in George Square - the most high profile of his Scottish engagements - was a priority for Mandela at a time when his diary was fit to burst, but he regarded the trip as a necessity, a way in which to repay a debt to the city. > > Indeed, his attendance at the rally was 12 years in the making. At a time when Mandela was regarded by many with distrust, rather than a global hero, Glasgow broke the mould, conferring upon him the Freedom of the City. > > Off-topic, I hope not. Maisie > >

Have long been reluctant to send my DNA samples anywhere. In any case, it is important to read the fine print in contracts with any company purporting to do DNA analysis. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=23andme-is-terrifying-but-not-for-reasons-fda&WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20131206 Be careful, folks! Carolyn

Of-topic, maybe, but well worth reading. Particularly for me, since my grandmother was born in Glasgow. Phil -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisie Egger Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 22:47 To: Dora Smith; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] We ALL MOURN >From today's The Scotsman: “The people of Glasgow were the first in the world to confer on me the Freedom of the City at a time when I and my comrades in the ANC were imprisoned on Robben Island serving life sentences which, in apartheid South Africa, then meant imprisonment until death,” he said. “You, the people of Glasgow, pledged that you would not relax until I was free to receive this honour in person. I am deeply grateful to you and the anti-apartheid movement in Scotland for all your efforts to this end.” Mandela’s appearance in Glasgow that day epitomised the powerful bond forged between Scotland and the anti-apartheid movement over more than three decades and thousands of miles. In the years that followed his hard-won freedom, he made several visits to this country, and time and again, he spoke of his gratitude for the solidarity shown to him and his cause by ordinary Scots. The joyous rally in George Square - the most high profile of his Scottish engagements - was a priority for Mandela at a time when his diary was fit to burst, but he regarded the trip as a necessity, a way in which to repay a debt to the city. Indeed, his attendance at the rally was 12 years in the making. At a time when Mandela was regarded by many with distrust, rather than a global hero, Glasgow broke the mould, conferring upon him the Freedom of the City. Off-topic, I hope not. Maisie

Jim, in any century, if it's people are lucky, one or two people are born who have Nelson Mandela's virtues. As far as I know, the 20th century had three of them. Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, and Ghandi. Jesus Christ was on their level. Our President is not perfect; I have my issues with him, but in general, I respect him. Sorry if the human race disappoints you. Dora United States (if anyone was wondering, and I doubt they were) -----Original Message----- From: Jim Jackson Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 7:31 AM To: 'Maisie Egger' ; 'Dora Smith' ; [email protected] Subject: RE: [Lanark] We ALL MOURN I expect people all over the world have been affected and influenced by Nelson Mandela and are saddened by his death. I wish our own president owned some of Nelson Mandela's virtues. Jim -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisie Egger Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47 PM To: Dora Smith; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] We ALL MOURN >From today's The Scotsman: “The people of Glasgow were the first in the world to confer on me the Freedom of the City at a time when I and my comrades in the ANC were imprisoned on Robben Island serving life sentences which, in apartheid South Africa, then meant imprisonment until death,” he said. “You, the people of Glasgow, pledged that you would not relax until I was free to receive this honour in person. I am deeply grateful to you and the anti-apartheid movement in Scotland for all your efforts to this end.” Mandela’s appearance in Glasgow that day epitomised the powerful bond forged between Scotland and the anti-apartheid movement over more than three decades and thousands of miles. In the years that followed his hard-won freedom, he made several visits to this country, and time and again, he spoke of his gratitude for the solidarity shown to him and his cause by ordinary Scots. The joyous rally in George Square - the most high profile of his Scottish engagements - was a priority for Mandela at a time when his diary was fit to burst, but he regarded the trip as a necessity, a way in which to repay a debt to the city. Indeed, his attendance at the rally was 12 years in the making. At a time when Mandela was regarded by many with distrust, rather than a global hero, Glasgow broke the mould, conferring upon him the Freedom of the City. Off-topic, I hope not. Maisie --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Jim, They share/d much more than you know ;-)  Mandela was an avowed Communist and Obama is on much the same level, as judged by his past "friends" and some of his actions.  Many of their "virtues" are the result of constraints put on them by society and their wisdom to recognize those restraints. Cliff. ________________________________ From: Jim Jackson <[email protected]> To: 'Maisie Egger' <[email protected]>; 'Dora Smith' <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Friday, December 6, 2013 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [Lanark] We ALL MOURN I expect people all over the world have been affected and influenced by Nelson Mandela and are saddened by his death.  I wish our own president owned some of Nelson Mandela's virtues. Jim -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisie Egger Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47 PM To: Dora Smith; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] We ALL MOURN From today's The Scotsman: “The people of Glasgow were the first in the world to confer on me the Freedom of the City at a time when I and my comrades in the ANC were imprisoned on Robben Island serving life sentences which, in apartheid South Africa, then meant imprisonment until death,” he said. “You, the people of Glasgow, pledged that you would not relax until I was free to receive this honour in person. I am deeply grateful to you and the anti-apartheid movement in Scotland for all your efforts to this end.” Mandela’s appearance in Glasgow that day epitomised the powerful bond forged between Scotland and the anti-apartheid movement over more than three decades and thousands of miles. In the years that followed his hard-won freedom, he made several visits to this country, and time and again, he spoke of his gratitude for the solidarity shown to him and his cause by ordinary Scots. The joyous rally in George Square - the most high profile of his Scottish engagements - was a priority for Mandela at a time when his diary was fit to burst, but he regarded the trip as a necessity, a way in which to repay a debt to the city. Indeed, his attendance at the rally was 12 years in the making. At a time when Mandela was regarded by many with distrust, rather than a global hero, Glasgow broke the mould, conferring upon him the Freedom of the City. Off-topic, I hope not.  Maisie   ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online:  http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I expect people all over the world have been affected and influenced by Nelson Mandela and are saddened by his death. I wish our own president owned some of Nelson Mandela's virtues. Jim -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisie Egger Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2013 10:47 PM To: Dora Smith; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] We ALL MOURN >From today's The Scotsman: “The people of Glasgow were the first in the world to confer on me the Freedom of the City at a time when I and my comrades in the ANC were imprisoned on Robben Island serving life sentences which, in apartheid South Africa, then meant imprisonment until death,” he said. “You, the people of Glasgow, pledged that you would not relax until I was free to receive this honour in person. I am deeply grateful to you and the anti-apartheid movement in Scotland for all your efforts to this end.” Mandela’s appearance in Glasgow that day epitomised the powerful bond forged between Scotland and the anti-apartheid movement over more than three decades and thousands of miles. In the years that followed his hard-won freedom, he made several visits to this country, and time and again, he spoke of his gratitude for the solidarity shown to him and his cause by ordinary Scots. The joyous rally in George Square - the most high profile of his Scottish engagements - was a priority for Mandela at a time when his diary was fit to burst, but he regarded the trip as a necessity, a way in which to repay a debt to the city. Indeed, his attendance at the rally was 12 years in the making. At a time when Mandela was regarded by many with distrust, rather than a global hero, Glasgow broke the mould, conferring upon him the Freedom of the City. Off-topic, I hope not. Maisie

Nelson Mandela was a remarkable man. Dora -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 7:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] We ALL MOURN I am SURE, for the passing of NELSON MANDELA, 95 years old, & what he believed in, how he endured & how he how he managed his horrors! PEACE at last for him! Ruth ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

>From today's The Scotsman: “The people of Glasgow were the first in the world to confer on me the Freedom of the City at a time when I and my comrades in the ANC were imprisoned on Robben Island serving life sentences which, in apartheid South Africa, then meant imprisonment until death,” he said. “You, the people of Glasgow, pledged that you would not relax until I was free to receive this honour in person. I am deeply grateful to you and the anti-apartheid movement in Scotland for all your efforts to this end.” Mandela’s appearance in Glasgow that day epitomised the powerful bond forged between Scotland and the anti-apartheid movement over more than three decades and thousands of miles. In the years that followed his hard-won freedom, he made several visits to this country, and time and again, he spoke of his gratitude for the solidarity shown to him and his cause by ordinary Scots. The joyous rally in George Square - the most high profile of his Scottish engagements - was a priority for Mandela at a time when his diary was fit to burst, but he regarded the trip as a necessity, a way in which to repay a debt to the city. Indeed, his attendance at the rally was 12 years in the making. At a time when Mandela was regarded by many with distrust, rather than a global hero, Glasgow broke the mould, conferring upon him the Freedom of the City. Off-topic, I hope not. Maisie ------------------------------------------------------------ Nelson Mandela was a remarkable man. Dora

I am SURE, for the passing of NELSON MANDELA, 95 years old, & what he believed in, how he endured & how he how he managed his horrors! PEACE at last for him! Ruth

Hello Innes Sorry for a late response to your message on the 17 November, but would appreciate you doing a lookup for me in your data associated with the Methodist connections in Montrose Street. George Swan was born around 1843-45 to David Swan and Margaret Aitken, but I cannot find any record of actual date of birth or baptism. His nine older siblings were all recorded as born and/or baptised in the OPR records of Glasgow and Barony. There is nothing in the OPRs for George. George Swan was married to Marion Taylor with a Methodist service at 122 Montrose Street Glasgow on the 14 July 1865. As the calculated date of his birth is around 1843-45, this coincides with the split in the established church. Perhaps the family moved away to the Methodists? As George Swan is my Great Grandfather, anything you may find will be greatly appreciated. Kind regards Ian Scott Perth Western Australia At 06:38 AM 17/11/2013, you wrote: >Hello, > >Following on from something that Maisie mentioned. > >When you decide what you say or choose not to say in your family history I'd >presume you have in mind an intended audience be that immediate family or a >far wider group. > >Which made me wonder, out of interest, has anyone produced their family >history as a book aimed squarely at children? > >In order to keep this strictly lanark-l related. > >If anyone has Methodist connections with Glasgow circa 1840-1859, in >particular if there's a possible connection with the Montrose Street >associate congregation then I've just come into possession of a related >roll. There isn't a massive amount of information on it but if you'd like a >lookup then just ask. > >The document will be passed on to an appropriate archive or library in due >course. > >Innes <snip>

Hello Sandra William Martin and Agnes Renwick had at least 7 children, 6 of whom were born in Douglas between 1863 and 1874. They were: Robert 1863 James 1865 William 1867 Anne Tait 1870 John 1872 Adam Renwick 1874 The birth details can be found at www.familysearch.org Family Search transcribed the birth and baptism dates from the Church of Scotland parish registers and the statutory records kept by the General Register Office for Scotland but their transcriptions got no further than the mid-1870s. They don't have the images of the records which can be found only on the Scotlands People website at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk - a pay site. The 1881 census on Ancestry.co.uk shows the family at 74 Almada St, Hamilton, as follows: William Martin 45 Head Mason b Douglas Agnes Martin 37 Wife b Douglas Robert Martin, 17, Son, Grocer, b Douglas James Martin, 15, Son, Mason, b Douglas William Martin, 13, Son, Grocer, b Douglas John Martin, 9, Son, Scholar, b Douglas Adam Martin, 7, Son, Scholar, b Douglas Ann T Martin, 3(?)*, Daur, b Hamilton Thomas Martin, 9 mo, Son, b Hamilton * The first Anne T Martin may have died. The following children for Robert Martin and Elisabeth Wilson are listed on the OPR Index of Births and Baptisms on the Scotlands People website (all in Douglas, Lanarkshire) Elisabeth 1830 Janet 1831 Marion 1831 James 1835 William 1837 and 1838 (the first William presumably died) Robert 1841 Jane 1843 Isabella 1846 Margaret 1849 Hope that helps Rhoda -----Original Message----- From: Sandra Lemley Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 11:47 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] Martin's From Hamilton Hello I have just join this list and wish to ask for some help in find a family called Martin from Hamilton, I have a little information that might help. Have written to loads of people that have some names the same as what I am looking for but no connection with me. Alive or deceased would greatly help me in my quest for this family.

Hello I have just join this list and wish to ask for some help in find a family called Martin from Hamilton, I have a little information that might help. Have written to loads of people that have some names the same as what I am looking for but no connection with me. Alive or deceased would greatly help me in my quest for this family. My cousin was born 1939 to James Martin born 28th February 1905 in Hamilton Larnarkshire to parents John Martin 1872 in Hamilton and Annie Bruce Kerr 1871 they marry 23rd December 1892 in Glasgow. they had the following children; William 1895 John 1897 Agnes 1899 Margaret 1901 Thomas 1903 James 1905 Robert 1907 Annie I have found the family in 1901 Census living at 8 John Street, Hamilton, Larkashire. John by proffesion was a stone mason, also 1911 when James was 6 years old but couldn't make out the address. John was born in 1872 in Hamilton too, his parents where William Martin born 1839 and Agnes Renwick, they married in douglas 1863, only found one child at the monment as I have mention called John. William Martin was born to Robert Martin born about 1807 he married elizabeth Wilson b 1806 nothing else is known about these people. Hoping some one can make sense of my letter and help me in my vast search thank you for some body taking the time to read this mail thanks Sandra

I have a Martin from Douglas who may be totally unconnected. She was the wife of an offshoot on my tree and I have little details. I mention it only because of the coincidence of name and place. Annie Martin, born in Douglas 23 Apr 1857 to Samuel Martin and Helen Symington, married in Douglas 15 March 1878 to John Chapman; one witness was Catherine Martin. She had children Helen about 1877 in Douglas, Marion 1880 in Crawfordjohn and William about 1888 in Carnwath. Ken Harrison North Vancouver, Canada -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rhoda Overson Sent: 4-Dec-13 6:37 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Martin's From Hamilton Hello Sandra William Martin and Agnes Renwick had at least 7 children, 6 of whom were born in Douglas between 1863 and 1874. They were: Robert 1863 James 1865 William 1867 Anne Tait 1870 John 1872 Adam Renwick 1874 The birth details can be found at www.familysearch.org Family Search transcribed the birth and baptism dates from the Church of Scotland parish registers and the statutory records kept by the General Register Office for Scotland but their transcriptions got no further than the mid-1870s. They don't have the images of the records which can be found only on the Scotlands People website at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk - a pay site. The 1881 census on Ancestry.co.uk shows the family at 74 Almada St, Hamilton, as follows: William Martin 45 Head Mason b Douglas Agnes Martin 37 Wife b Douglas Robert Martin, 17, Son, Grocer, b Douglas James Martin, 15, Son, Mason, b Douglas William Martin, 13, Son, Grocer, b Douglas John Martin, 9, Son, Scholar, b Douglas Adam Martin, 7, Son, Scholar, b Douglas Ann T Martin, 3(?)*, Daur, b Hamilton Thomas Martin, 9 mo, Son, b Hamilton * The first Anne T Martin may have died. The following children for Robert Martin and Elisabeth Wilson are listed on the OPR Index of Births and Baptisms on the Scotlands People website (all in Douglas, Lanarkshire) Elisabeth 1830 Janet 1831 Marion 1831 James 1835 William 1837 and 1838 (the first William presumably died) Robert 1841 Jane 1843 Isabella 1846 Margaret 1849 Hope that helps Rhoda -----Original Message----- From: Sandra Lemley Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 11:47 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Lanark] Martin's From Hamilton Hello I have just join this list and wish to ask for some help in find a family called Martin from Hamilton, I have a little information that might help. Have written to loads of people that have some names the same as what I am looking for but no connection with me. Alive or deceased would greatly help me in my quest for this family. -------------------------------

And so do the cardinals, from whom the pope is chosen. In a message dated 12/1/2013 6:37:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Message: 2 Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 11:05:29 -0800 (PST) From: "Cliff. Johnston" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots To: nautakat <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Yes, Judaism is a religion as used/developed by specific tribes or families?of Semites in the Middle?East?initially.? Technically, Christianity is a reformed Jewish movement.? The pope still wears a yarmulke which is a Jewish tradition. Cliff.

Oy vey! ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, December 2, 2013 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] LANARK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 206 And so do the cardinals, from whom the pope is  chosen. In a message dated 12/1/2013 6:37:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  [email protected] writes: Message: 2 Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 11:05:29 -0800  (PST) From: "Cliff. Johnston" <[email protected]> Subject: Re:  [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots To: nautakat <[email protected]>,  "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=utf-8 Yes, Judaism is a religion as used/developed  by specific tribes or families of Semites in the Middle East initially.  Technically, Christianity is a reformed Jewish movement.  The pope still wears a yarmulke which is a Jewish  tradition. Cliff.   ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online:  http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dora, Fascinating link.  Thank you for posting. Cliff. ________________________________ From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 1, 2013 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Red hair Make  a liar out of me.    See http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html, and an article by Nicholas Wade in the New York Times, Oct 8, 2013.   Worldwide, most Jewish male lineages originated in the Middle East.  However, most female lineages resemble the local population.   Ashkenazi Jews are overwhelmingly descended from European women, particularly the half who are descended from three haplogroup K women (all major subclades) and N1b2.   As nearly as the roots of these now isolated lineages can be pinned down, they were all over Europe.   Typically they date to 2.3 or 1.5 thousand years ago.   Researchers think that most likely single Jewish men moved into communities as traders or whatever, and married and converted local women.   There were subsequent founder effects (which requires a fairly isolated population to become established).  

Thanks, Cliff. Yes, Judaism has beliefs and traditions – not DNA. Middle Eastern characteristics are being discussed perhaps – not Jewish. There are Jewish people of all nationalities, of all inherited characteristics, so it seems a bit nonsensical to discuss a ‘Jewish’ hair colour, or eye colour gene. Numerous characteristics in our recent thread are recessive genes. The same recessive gene from both parents is needed to result in a particular characteristic. Red hair is a recessive gene, so are blue eyes. Cheers, Kathryn From: Cliff. Johnston [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, 2 December 2013 6:05 AM To: nautakat; Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Yes, Judaism is a religion as used/developed by specific tribes or families of Semites in the Middle East initially. Technically, Christianity is a reformed Jewish movement. The pope still wears a yarmulke which is a Jewish tradition. Cliff. _____ From: nautakat <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Judaism is a religion, is it not???? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: Sunday, 1 December 2013 4:38 AM To: Cliff. Johnston; iain.mcneill; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots You know, it never even occurred to me to point out that there are multiple known genes for red hair, and that the trait sporadically pops up in deepest Africa and among isolated tribes in the Pacific Ocean. I stuck to the history. Everyone knows that red hair was a Celtic trait as well as a Norse trait. If you won’t believe that, it seemed like there’s no point in mentioning they may not even have the same genes. Historically those groups are not as distinct as people want to think. Both have part Indo-European steppe people roots, and for much of their history the two peoples shared most of Europe. Most of northern, western and central Europe and some parts of Eastern Europe were once part of the Celtic empire, even modern Denmark. Celts were specifically drawn to Denmark by the amber trade, where they and native people formed a common elite along the western and southern shores of the Baltic sea. Their group extended into Scandinavia. Dora From: Cliff. Johnston Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 9:52 PM To: Dora Smith ; iain.mcneill ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots Sometime ago I copied an article on red hair that also discusses other hair colors. If anyone would like a copy of it, email me privately, and I will send it to you as an attachment. Cliff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dora Smith <[email protected]> To: iain.mcneill <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Lanark] Viking red-haired roots I didn't know you all didn't realize how deeply the Norse penetrated into British Celtic territory. I thought red hair was being wrongly attributed to the Norse. The Norse are thought of has having red hair. Now, I frankly don't see a whole lot of red hair among photos of people in Scandinavia and Denmark; in fact, they're more likely to be medium to short and have dark skin and dark hair, that for some reason today is commonly associated with people of Scotch Irish stock in the eastern United States. Otherwise they are tall and good looking by English standards and have blonde or brown hair. It is possible that those who became Vikings were some subgroup of them. If as is thought the Norse are partially descended from relatively recent invaders from the Asian steppes, they could have maintained something of a warrior class, despite the fact that allegedly most Vikings were farmers whose homeland had run short of land. Two Y DNA haplogroups are common in Scandinavia, Indo-European R1a, and I1. I1 is a paleolithic haplogroup, it would be quite something if the people who bore it had any sort of bright colored hair, though I've an idea that in eastern Europe it became reddish early. Red hair has been a Celtic stereotype since ancient times, and is also a stereotype of certain Celtic subcultures such as Wiccan families. Dora --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- WHEN REPLYING to a post please remember to snip most of the earlier message. Be sure the reply to address shows as [email protected] You may contact the List Admin at [email protected] or click on the following link to the list information page online: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/SCT/LANARK.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message