Aren't the descendants of the grantee also entitled to use the Coat of Arms? Robert Laird wrote: > > Patricia -- > > > > >Robert here are my comments regarding the statement "Now to further > >invalidate the Laird "crest". " > > > <snip> > >does not take away the fact that a coat of arms was granted. > <snip> > > One of the misconceptions that was always posed in the coat of arms > >debates, was that the Laird Family Association, and the Laird's on this > list > >were trying to claim the "right" to the Coat of Arms, as their family > crest. > >As all of you know, this statement is not true. No one on this list ever > >claimed that the Coat of Arms was a family crest belonging to everyone who > >has the Laird name in their ancestry. Anyone who knows anything at all > about > >genealogy or Heraldry, knows that a Coat > >of Arms is granted to the bearer, and only he has the right to the Coat of > >Arms. > > I think that it's possible that SOME people, somewhere in the world may > think that the displayed "Laird" coat-of-arms is representative of and > can be used by anyone with the last name Laird. Consequently, it's probably > appropriate on the web site -- which is available to anyone in the world > on the Internet -- to remind them that only the grantee of the coat-of-arms > has the rights to it. If you would like to help me rephrase my lead-in, > I'd be more than happy to make the changes. > > I think what Iain has revealed is terrific! > > -- Robert > > ------------------------------------------------ > mailto:rlaird@cavediver.com > http://www.concentric.net/~rlaird/ > Work phone: 713-260-6586 > ------------------------------------------------ > > There is an exception to every rule! ... er, > except this one... > > ==== LAIRD Mailing List ==== > Laird Resource Page: > http://resources.rootsweb.com/surnames/l/a/LAIRD/

Patricia -- > >Robert here are my comments regarding the statement "Now to further >invalidate the Laird "crest". " > <snip> >does not take away the fact that a coat of arms was granted. <snip> > One of the misconceptions that was always posed in the coat of arms >debates, was that the Laird Family Association, and the Laird's on this list >were trying to claim the "right" to the Coat of Arms, as their family crest. >As all of you know, this statement is not true. No one on this list ever >claimed that the Coat of Arms was a family crest belonging to everyone who >has the Laird name in their ancestry. Anyone who knows anything at all about >genealogy or Heraldry, knows that a Coat >of Arms is granted to the bearer, and only he has the right to the Coat of >Arms. I think that it's possible that SOME people, somewhere in the world may think that the displayed "Laird" coat-of-arms is representative of and can be used by anyone with the last name Laird. Consequently, it's probably appropriate on the web site -- which is available to anyone in the world on the Internet -- to remind them that only the grantee of the coat-of-arms has the rights to it. If you would like to help me rephrase my lead-in, I'd be more than happy to make the changes. I think what Iain has revealed is terrific! -- Robert - ---------------------------------------------- mailto:rlaird@cavediver.com http://www.concentric.net/~rlaird/ Work phone: 713-260-6586 - ---------------------------------------------- There is an exception to every rule! ... er, except this one...

Please note "Glenhuntly". Not "Glenhuntley". It must be the Irish influence out there e.g. Irish Whiskey, Scotch Whisky! (One as good as the other, despite the spelling difference, though, that's what's good about cousins!) Yours aye Iain

Regarding descendants of a bearer of arms in Scotland the following is quoted from "Finding Your Roots, by Jeane Eddy Westin, copyright 1977." Scotland. According to L. G. Pine, there are at least 50,000 spurious coats of arms in use in England today. Not so in Scotland. The system of heraldry in Scotland is probably the most simple and well governed in the world. Since 1672, the Lord Lyon (the name derived from the rampant lion on the arms of the royal line of Scotland) has had full legal control of all coats of arms. The willful use of a coat of arms not granted by the Lord Lyon can bring a jail sentence or fine today, just as it did 300 years ago. A Lyon Register that now fills some fifty volumes ensures that no person may legally use arms that have not been registered in his own name. If you are a descendant of a Scottish armiger, you can petition the Lord Lyon for a grant of your ancestor's arms. If you do not have an ancestor who was granted arms in his lifetime, you must petition to obtain a grant of arms for that ancestor. Then you can apply for the reassignment of those arms to you, if you are an heir, or another version of the arms if you are descended from a younger son. Sincerely, Patricia Laird Howard

In order to further clarify the position I copy an extract of "Heraldry in Scotland" by James Dempster, FSA Scot: THE COURT OF THE LORD LYON All heraldry in Scotland is controlled by the Court of the Lord Lyon King of Arms, commonly known as the Lyon Court, and located at New Register House in Edinburgh. The origins of the Lyon Court are literally lost in the mists of time as the office of Lord Lyon incorporates that of the Royal Sennachie or Bard whose duty it was to proclaim the lineage and deeds of the ancestors of the King. From this Celtic start, the position has developed into a judicial one, with the Lord Lyon sitting as a judge on armorial matters. WHAT ARE MY ARMS ? If you are Scots, or of Scots descent, then the answer is that unless you can prove that you are heir to a properly matriculated Scots coat of arms, you have no arms whatsoever until you matriculate a set at the Lyon Court in Edinburgh. If you use the arms of someone else then you are usurping arms, if you make up your own arms, then you are using bogus arms. In both cases you are committing an offence and may be charged and tried at Lyon Court, which is an active court of law. This makes Scottish heraldry one of the most tightly controlled in the world, as it is one of the few countries where heraldry is protected by law, and that law is still actively enforced. Even if you are the direct heir, it is considered proper to re-matriculate every few generations in order that your due title to the arms be kept up to date. The legal position is quite simple - arms belong to the person who records them and the heirs of that person according to the limitations of the grant or of tailzie. However, whereas in England, the right to a coat of arms passes to all male descendents of the grantee, in Scotland a coat of arms is considered to be heritable property and thus can only belong to one person at a time. This means that the younger sons of a grantee have no direct right to inherit the arms until elder branches of the family have died out. All younger sons must rematriculate the arms with a difference in order to posess legal arms. RE-MATRICULATION OF ARMS This is a similar process to a grant of arms, but the prayer to the Lord Lyon must deal specifically with the proof of descent from someone who has recorded arms in the Lyon Register. If sufficient evidence (good enough to stand up in a court of law) is available, the prayer petitions Lyon to re-matriculate the arms with suitable differences to make plain the relationship of the petitioner within the family. Again, a template for the prayer is shown in Innes of Learney's Scots Heraldry." For further details see his website: http://www.kwtelecom.com/heraldry/scother1.html I still think what the Arms might be revealing about Laird ancestry is their most significant meaning to all Lairds today! I trust this assist. Yours aye Iain

Robert, I agree the uneducated would probably think that the Coat of Arms can be used by anyone. The web site should have a caption that states, coat of arms of William Laird of Glenhuntley, 1777. It should also explain that William Laird has sole rights to bear the coat of arms, and that this right would not include all persons having the surname Laird, or the Laird surname in their ancestry. Sincerely, Patricia

Patricia, Have I told you lately that I love what you're doing with the newsletter? If not, I want to make it so. From me and everyone else (and a lot of people who haven't seen it yet but will someday), Thank You! Russell

Patricia There is quite a lot of information available on Cammell Laird, but as a start point try the yard's homepage "http://lairds.merseyworld.com/". I used to work in sight of the yard, and if spelling my surname in Liverpool, I used to say "as in the shipyard, but not related." As it turns out I might be! Yours aye Iain

Iain, It seems to me that the Family History Center here in Tulsa has a listing of Manors. But the listing may only be for England and may not include Scotland. I will check on Thursday when our librarian who happens to be a native of England is on duty. If anyone can set me in the right direction, she can. I would love to hear any information you may have on the Laird "shipbuilders." For now, I am off to the library and well talk to you later. Sincerely, Patricia

An interesting thought about the shibuilders - they were also originally from Canisbay, Caithness (according to one of the Elders at Canisbay Kirk). The Lyon Court, incidentally, is the Court of Scots Heraldry. There is a separate College of Arms in London for English and Welsh Heraldry. I would be inclined to think that Glenhuntly is an estate - perhaps now dispersed - rather than a village, which would show up in any register. For example my Grandfather used to work on the Cluny estate in Aberdeenshire, which does not appear on many maps. Yours aye Iain

Ian, I note that the English Coat of Arms is almost the same as the 1777 Coat of Arms for Scotland. LAIRD (England). Ar. A chev. betw. two boars' heads, couped, in chief, and a crescent in base, all gu. Crest-A hand holding a covered cup ppr. So, I wonder which one came first? Also, it is possible that Glenhuntley was the name of a Manor rather than a village in Scotland. And I would think that if William was proud of his ancestry, and knew something of his lineage, that he would have set it down for posterity. So, I agree with you. We need to find out more about William Laird, and why he chose the symbols that are identified on his crest. I would also like to know more about his line of work. Could he have been part of the lineage of the famous Laird ship builders? I know very little about them, but your mention of the "Shaw Savill ship named Glenhuntly, built in the 19th century" causes me to wonder. Sincerely, Patricia Laird Howard

With regard to the rights of "Arms" I would refer you to the webpage providing information on the Lyon Court in Edinburgh that I provide through my "Laird Family History" webpage at "http://ourworld.cs.com/inslaird/". Since I have Scots ancestry, if I had £1,000 or so to spare, I could have my own "Arms". Since a Laird has already "matriculated" the surname, it is likely they would be similar. Those of Scots descent can also apply, though British Citizenship is a pre-requisite to bear "Arms" if claiming in direct descent from William Laird of Glenhuntly, and a non-citizen would finf the process more complicated. Clan badges are part of the crest of the Clan Chief, as in the case of Sinclair, the Cockrel, and bear the Chief's Motto. The symbol is ringed with a belt or "buckler" to distinguish the bearer from the Chief. There is no Laird Clan, therefore no Chief, and regrettably no badge. We should be proud of an ancestor who bore arms, but the interesting thing for us is that the Arms may throw some light on our ancestry. I am trying to find out about "Glenhuntly" as my instinct is that the gentleman knew a great deal about the Laird family's ancestry. Yours aye Iain

Hello Everyone, Now that the activities of the holiday weekend are over, I would like to take the time to properly thank Iain Laird of England and his friend at the Lyon Court for their help in tracing the ownership of the coat of arms. Now we know that it belonged to William Laird of Glenhuntley, Scotland 1777. Robert here are my comments regarding the statement "Now to further invalidate the Laird "crest". " What determines the authenticity of a Coat of Arms? The age? Whether or not it was granted in the middle ages? Iain's report from the Lyon Court indicates that the Coat of Arms "is" authentic. This new revelation does not invalidate the Coat of Arms, instead it places a name and date to the crest. However, the year 1777 clearly indicates that the coat of arms does not have a historical background that dates back to the middle ages. This is a somewhat disappointing revelation, but does not take away the fact that a coat of arms was granted. One of the misconceptions that was always posed in the coat of arms debates, was that the Laird Family Association, and the Laird's on this list were trying to claim the "right" to the Coat of Arms, as their family crest. As all of you know, this statement is not true. No one on this list ever claimed that the Coat of Arms was a family crest belonging to everyone who has the Laird name in their ancestry. Anyone who knows anything at all about genealogy or Heraldry, knows that a Coat of Arms is granted to the bearer, and only he has the right to the Coat of Arms. The circumstances behind the right to bear the coat of arms does not determine it's authenticity. Sincerely, Patricia Laird Howard

The September '99 issue of the LFA Newsletter is now available for download on the LFA web site: http://www.qcsi.net/lfa -- Robert +--------------------------------------------+ | qcsi-Systems * Houston * Texas | | http://www.concentric.net/~rlaird/ | | (713) 260-6586 work (713)467-4135 fax | | (713) 503-2949 cell/pager | +--------------------------------------------+

Hi, I am seeking information about Johnston LAIRD, born, 9 Feb 1807, Mill Creek, Erie County, PA; died 27 Aug 1868, Sidney, Fremont County, IA. Johnston and Mary were to have spent 10 years in central IL. They purchased land and finally settled in Fremont County, IA, in 1853. So the time period would be about 1843 to 1853 in central IL. Johnston Married Polly Isabel "Mary" RUSSELL on 10 April 1833, Erie County, PA. Mary was born 14 July 1814, Erie COunty, PA, died 8 March 1889, Sidney, Fremont County, IA. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time and help. Jim Laird

Dear Barb I entered your message with the Sinclair Discussion Group and received the following reply. I think we are getting somewhere! Yours aye Iain Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 20:18:28 EDT From: DSinc39156@aol.com Subject: Sinclairs & Lairds of Hempriggs House I am the Sinclair with a connection to Hempriggs House. My great great great grandfather was William Sinclair b. 1793 @ Hempriggs House. I visited there in June of this year. It is now a Pensioner's home. While touring the Wick Heritage Centre, in Wick, I met a Mrs. MacDonald, she stated her late husband's name was Sinclair MacDonald. Sinclair MacDonald was the son of a Laird Lady who was also from Hempriggs House. I have since been informed that Hempriggs House was built by the Dunbar family. My William Sinclair married Henrietta Dunbar Sutherland. Donald Sinclair (Indianapolis)

Good Grief!! You are the second person to come up with "John Laird, Hatter." Apparently was born in 1771, lived in Pike Co., Arkansas. The father of the younger John Laird in Pike Co. perhaps??? My John Laird died before 1850 in Ross Co., Ohio. His son John was living in Ross co. in 1850. Age 32, so it's a different JOhn Laird. Interesting that they were both hatters although I believe my people were from Scotland. So I heard anyway. Thank you for you message. Mary Szymanowski Ann Flowers wrote: > > Replying to Mary Szymanowski's query: > > I have a John Laird, age 51, born in Ireland, listed in the Gibson Co., > TN 1850 census, p. 305. His occupation is listed as "hatter." > In the 1850 Pike Co., AR census, p. 193, a John Laird, age 54, b. VA, > occupation "hatter," is listed with James and Nancy Scott. > In the 1860 Pike Co., AR census, p. 449, a John W. Laird, age 71, b. VA > is listed with J. M. and J. N. Scott. His occupation is "hatter." > Ann > > ==== LAIRD Mailing List ==== > Laird Family Association Website: http://www.qcsi.net/lfa

Replying to Mary Szymanowski's query: I have a John Laird, age 51, born in Ireland, listed in the Gibson Co., TN 1850 census, p. 305. His occupation is listed as "hatter." In the 1850 Pike Co., AR census, p. 193, a John Laird, age 54, b. VA, occupation "hatter," is listed with James and Nancy Scott. In the 1860 Pike Co., AR census, p. 449, a John W. Laird, age 71, b. VA is listed with J. M. and J. N. Scott. His occupation is "hatter." Ann

Hello Everyone, The newsletter is finally finished and I am sending the file to Robert. After reading Iain Laird's letter on the Laird Coat Of Arms, I am once again reminded of the synchronicity of things. Cap'n Curtiss has submitted the Laird Coat of Arms for this newsletter. The crest will be in a separate file, so you will have two files to download. Please allow Robert time to get everything loaded unto the website. Iain, once again, thanks for your help. Sincerely, Patricia Laird Howard

I have some interesting news for all Lairds and their friends and cousins. The Lyon Clerk and Keeper of the Records in Scotland has given us the following advice: "The Arms described by Cheryl Laird are those recorded in name of William Laird of Glenhuntly in 1777. The blazon or formal description is accurate although the comments thereon are by no means as certain. People endeavour to give precise meanings to each element in a shield and often without any substance at all. The colour representation of the arms is poor and the crescent should be red. The motto should appear above the crest and not below the shield. The motto "Spero Meliora" is fairly common and in Scotland alone is used by people of the surnames Baillie, Fairholme, Graham, Maxwell, Montgomery, Murray, Rait, Sandilands, Shanks, and Stewart as well as Laird but I cannot find that anyone of the surname Ogston has recorded Arms with that motto. As, however, your family originates in Caithness I am not surprised to learn that there are links with prominent families in that part of the world. Thus I can confirm that the Arms given by Cheryl Laird are indeed accurate and they belong to and identify Laird of Glenhuntly. There is no such thing as a family coat of arms which all people bearing the same surname may use." Now we need to find out about William Laird of Glenhuntly. "Glenhuntly" was the name of a Shaw Savill ship in the 19th Century and was involved in emigration to New Zealand. It is also the name of a suburb in Melbourne Australia. Is it the name of an Estate in Scotland? Huntly is in Aberdeenshire, but no Glenhuntly appears in any gazeteer for Scotland. Please e-mail information to INSLaird.cs.com. I have also entered this information on our webpage "http://ourworld.cs.com/inslaird/" which links through to the page with views of the Arms of William Laird of Glenhuntly, remembered reasonably accurately by our cousins in the USA. As Niven Sinclair says, "he who seeks will find!". Much of our "recollection" is grounded in hard fact, temporarily mislaid by the distress of the passage of time and by geographical shifts. Yours aye Iain Laird