RESPONSE: Although you are unable at this time to come up with absolute confirming evidence of who she was, it certainly looks to me you have compiled some extensive evidence pointing to some pretty clear conclusions with census records, etc. Joyce Taylor Collins La Palma, CA In a message dated 1/4/2008 7:40:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > Her short life and the scarecity of records prior to 1915 ,makes it more > difficult to find records > Thank You > and God Bless You for your help.

RESPONSE: Sometimes they include the information and sometimes they include nothing. You can go to: http://www.usgenweb.org Click on: Kentucky On that menu you will see a link to court clerks for all KY counties. There will be an address and phone number for your use. Joyce Taylor Collins La Palma, CA In a message dated 1/4/2008 7:24:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > Joyce would these marriage records include who their parents were? and do > you know where I would send to get them? Thank You very Much > Donnie

Joyce would these marriage records include who their parents were? and do you know where I would send to get them? Thank You very Much Donnie ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 12:51 AM Subject: Re: [KYHARLAN] Fw: Jeffers, Botts RESPONSE: Hello, In the Bell Co., KY Marriage Index, there are these marriages listed. By ordering a couple of them, you might be able to confirm the parentage you are seeking. Dec 1, 1924 JEFFERS, Sam to LOUDEN, Bessie - Book 37, Page 45 July 30, 1921 JEFFERS, W. M. to PATTERSON, Lucy - Book 5, Page 45 Jan 16, 1937 JEFFERS, Walter to McFARLAND, Mattie - Book 95, Page 376 Joyce Taylor Collins La Palma, CA In a message dated 1/3/2008 8:50:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > I desperately need help trying to identify my great grandmother.My great > grandfather Roscoe Botts 6-22-1889 died 1967) married a Rosie (Jeffers- > Jeffires) born 3-18-1891 died 1-19-1915, unsure about the spelling of the last > name. They married around 1910 or 1911 and don't appear on any census record > together that i can find. They had two children , a son named Floyd who died as > an infant and my grandmother Nola Dee Frances Marie Botts born 10-12-1912. > Roscoe remarried very shortly after rosie's death to Bertha Thomas and never > really talked about Rosie. Rosie supposedly had two brothers Sam and Bill and > one of them died in the Baxter area of Harlan Co. Ky. around April 1929 or > 1930 as best as my grandmother could recall. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

RESPONSE: Her actual death certificate listed her parents as Hughie SMITH and Narcissus BALL SMITH. I can send that to you if you like. Joyce Taylor Collins La Palma, CA In a message dated 1/4/2008 5:28:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > I had Ellender Jane Smith birth as May 24 1858 and died March 10 1936. I > believe she was the daughter of Hugh and Virginia Jane Bailey Smith. Hugh > married Narcissus E Ball on August 24 1859. Virginia had died November 9 1858. > I understand the census omits her in 1860 but mistakes have been made before > during census taking

RESPONSE: Hi, You are right that those death certs are only as good as the knowledge of the death cert informant. As for the marriage records, I guess sometimes it was just easier to make oneself a bit younger for the next marriage. My ancestors were overall a very good-looking bunch from the photos of them I have, most had affairs on the side, multiple marriages was the order of the day for both the men and the women. I mean how many people can say or will admit even as I can that my grandpa's sister, Carolyn "Carrie" TAYLOR ran a house of prostitution in Lexington, KY on Megawan Street (red light district of turn of the last century ). The reason we know so much about what happened is she was shot and killed "in a fit of jealously" per newspaper account by another lady of the night and it was written up all over the Lexington newspapers. Apparently she ran what was called a "high class" house that the newspapers referred to as a "social club". Carrie was born in 1874 in Knox Co. and died in Fayette, Lexington, KY in 1905. She owned her own home, had furs, cash and jewelry and very lovely clothing in which she is pictured and which was divided up by her sister heirs and others. Joyce Taylor Collins La Palma, CA In a message dated 1/4/2008 5:25:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > I just bet a lot of women gave the wrong birthdate on the census too!!! > Barbara >

I had Ellender Jane Smith birth as May 24 1858 and died March 10 1936. I believe she was the daughter of Hugh and Virginia Jane Bailey Smith. Hugh married Narcissus E Ball on August 24 1859. Virginia had died November 9 1858. I understand the census omits her in 1860 but mistakes have been made before during census taking Linda Lewis-Weissinger > Author: JohnAshurst> Surnames: Ball, Smith,> Classification: queries> > I have read your message and many of the follow-up messages. It is my understanding that Ellender Jane Smith's mother was not Virginia Jane Bailey, but Narcissus Ball. If any of you have evidence that Virginia Bailey is the mother, please share! Ellender Jane is my great-grandmother. Her son, Smith Marion Ball is my grandfather. _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008

I think it makes my ancestors a whole lot more interesting and fun that there were criminal, ne'er-do'wells, witches and others mixed in with the "good" ones. But like you wrote, Joyce, there are some in my family that want the polished version - heaven forbid any ancestor was anything but pure and good in their minds! Someone mentioned a death certificate. My grandmother's had errors on them that she perpetuated. She had 3 marriages and while there were 4 years between number 1 and number 3, she only "aged" one year. She deliberately gave the wrong birthyear. When she died, none of her children knew it and I found it in my research at the Harlan County Courthouse. So not only was the death certificate wrong, so was the gravestone. I thought it was funny and knew Grandma was chuckling in heaven. Sandy

I bet she does have some lovely photos!!! On Jan 4, 2008 7:39 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > RESPONSE: > Hi, > > You are right that those death certs are only as good as the knowledge of > the > death cert informant. As for the marriage records, I guess sometimes it > was > just easier to make oneself a bit younger for the next marriage. > > My ancestors were overall a very good-looking bunch from the photos of > them I > have, most had affairs on the side, multiple marriages was the order of > the > day for both the men and the women. I mean how many people can say or > will > admit even as I can that my grandpa's sister, Carolyn "Carrie" TAYLOR ran > a > house of prostitution in Lexington, KY on Megawan Street (red light > district of > turn of the last century ). The reason we know so much about what > happened is > she was shot and killed "in a fit of jealously" per newspaper account by > another lady of the night and it was written up all over the Lexington > newspapers. > Apparently she ran what was called a "high class" house that the > newspapers > referred to as a "social club". Carrie was born in 1874 in Knox Co. and > died in > Fayette, Lexington, KY in 1905. She owned her own home, had furs, cash > and > jewelry and very lovely clothing in which she is pictured and which was > divided up by her sister heirs and others. > > Joyce Taylor Collins > La Palma, CA > > > In a message dated 1/4/2008 5:25:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > I just bet a lot of women gave the wrong birthdate on the census too!!! > > Barbara > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I just bet a lot of women gave the wrong birthdate on the census too!!! Barbara On Jan 4, 2008 7:21 PM, Sandra Altman <[email protected]> wrote: > I think it makes my ancestors a whole lot more interesting and fun that > there were criminal, ne'er-do'wells, witches and others mixed in with the > "good" ones. But like you wrote, Joyce, there are some in my family that > want the polished version - heaven forbid any ancestor was anything but pure > and good in their minds! > > Someone mentioned a death certificate. My grandmother's had errors on them > that she perpetuated. She had 3 marriages and while there were 4 years > between number 1 and number 3, she only "aged" one year. She deliberately > gave the wrong birthyear. When she died, none of her children knew it and I > found it in my research at the Harlan County Courthouse. So not only was > the death certificate wrong, so was the gravestone. I thought it was funny > and knew Grandma was chuckling in heaven. > > Sandy > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: joycecollins Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.kentucky.counties.harlan/14528.3.1.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: John, "There is no truth without proof". And genealogy without documentation is mythology. Two good things to attempt to live by when we are researching. And I will be the very first to tell you that finding that truth can sometimes be very difficult if not impossible. But, . . it is the journey that makes searching for one's family history (good and bad) so very interesting to me. Too many people are looking for some polished up version of their family's history. Some people back then lived with a set of moral and ethical values that is far outside of what is generally considered the norm today. I speak from personal experience in researching my TAYLOR and associated kinfolk. There is nothing you could name of a criminal or civil nature that they did not do or participate in. And, it was not just limited to my TAYLORs. Sometimes I think if I find one more child my g-grandfather or his sibling brothers fathered, I think I will scream or one more person they are purported to have killed. But we cannot be judgemental but simply "report the facts, mamam". They were an interesting bunch and it is how I got here today. Joyce Taylor Collins La Palma, CA Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: JohnAshurst Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.kentucky.counties.harlan/14528.3.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Joyce and Dot, Have you thought about starting a detective agency. It seems you each support, with evidence, that Narcissus Ball (the second wife of Hugh H. Smith) is the actual mother of Ellender Jane Smith! You have each confirmed oral history. Well done! Cheers, John Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: chas2jones Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.kentucky.counties.harlan/14383.2.2.1.4.1.3.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi, I just arrived back home, I went with my wife out uf town for the hoildays Charlie Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: joycecollins Surnames: BALL Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.kentucky.counties.harlan/14528.3.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hello, I looked at her actual death certificate on Ancestry.com. It is Cert #7373 Ella Jane BALL (Also Ella Jane SMITH) Died: 3-10-1936 in Harlan Co., KY at Ages. Born: May 24, 1861!!!!!!! Spouse: Allen BALL Father: Hughie SMITH b. VA Mother: Narsissus BALL, b. VA age; 74 years Cause of death: Hypertensive heart disease and also contributary to the death was: broncho pneumonia and senility and _____goiter. Joyce Taylor Collins La Palma, CA Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Dorothy_Cornett Surnames: Smith, Ball Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.kentucky.counties.harlan/14528.3.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hello; According to the 1850 and 1860 Harlan county census listed here by Joyce, a person can clearly see that Hugh Smith has a 2th marriage and the children listed is by his 1st wife Virginia Bailey whom died in 1858. Hugh married 2th 24 Aug, 1859-- Hugh H Smith to Nercepa Ball Minsters returns: Book A, Page 86 Married by Solomon Pope M/G As to the 1860 Census, Ellender Jane Smith is not listed in the household of Hugh Smith. It is not important as to who lives in the HH, What is important is the birth date of the person who is living in the HH. the law states that all persons in the HH born as of June 1st of that year be counted and any child born after June 1st shall be omitted. This HH was counted in the last part of July in 1860. If the Marshall was to the understanding that Ellender Jane had been born, but born after 1st June, she would not have been counted. On the original copy of the 1870 census it looks as Jane's age is given as 11, but the 11 has been changed to 10 by marking over the last 1 and is hard to be sure. Most likely is a 10. On the 1880 census, Jane, in her own HH with Allen Ball, she gives her age as 20 yrs. On the 1900 cenus,Jane, in her own HH with Allen Ball, she gives her age as 40 yrs and her birth as May, 1860. On the 1910 cenus,Jane, in her own HH with Allen Ball, she gives her age as 50 yrs. On the 1920 cenus,Jane, in her own HH with Allen Ball, she gives her age as 58 yrs. On the Ky death index; Ball, Jane--age 73- died Harlan county, Ky 6 Feb 1936--Vol 009, Cert 04403. Note; not sure if this is her but if it is, it would list her parents. Based upon the consistancy of her age from the census she was most likely born in the last part of May or first part of June 1860 and is the D/O Hugh Smith and 2th wife. best regards, Dot ====== Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: tar6815 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.kentucky.counties.harlan/14383.2.2.1.4.1.3/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi Charlie, Haven't heard back from you in awhile, thought I'd write and see if I could get you to write me back. I was so interested in your stories. You also mentioned you would try to see who had pictures. I would love to post them on my Family Tree. If its too much to ask, I apologise, I don't mean to be pushy, I'm just really excited I found some one actually in my family! Hope to hear from you soon! Did you ever receive my last e-mail? Just wondering if I sent it the right way or if I goofed. Theresa Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: joycecollins Surnames: BALL Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.kentucky.counties.harlan/14528.3.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hello, Just by looking at the census records, we know that Ellender had not yet made a birth appearance in the spring of 1860 when the 1860 census would have been enumerated. The annotations regarding the death of Virginia Jane BAILEY in 1858 and the first and second marriages of Hugh SMITH from the annotated census by Gertrude and Janette NOLAN present a fairly clear picture that the mother was Narcissus BALL. 1850 Harlan Co. Fed. Census Dwelling #66 SMITH, Hugh, 32, Ky . . Jane (BAILEY m. Feb. 25, 1834 HC KY, TN . . Barbara, 14, KY . . Elizabeth, 12, Ky . . David, 10, Ky . . Frances, 8, Ky . . Elias, 5, KY . . Martin, 3, KY . . Wiley, 3 months, Ky 1860 Harlan Co., KY Dwelling 393-393 SMITH, Hugh, 42, b. KY . .Nercissa, 28, b. KY . .David, 19, b. KY . .Fanny , 17, b. KY . .Elias, 15, b. KY . .Martin, 12, b. KY . .Wiley, 10, b. KY . . Alexander, 8, b. KY . .John, 4, b. KY 1870 Harlan Co. Dwelling 54-54 SMITH, Hugh, 53, b. KY (s/o Elias and Mary SMITH; mar. 1834 in Harlan Co. to Virginia Jane BAILEY, d/o William and Elizabeth THOMPSON BAILEY. She died Dec 9, 1858. He married 2nd 1859 in Harlan Co. to Narcissus, d/o Moses and Ellender BALL; b. 1835; died Aug 25, 1912 HC VS . . Narcissus, 37, b. KY . .John, 15, b. KY . .Ellender, 11, b. KY * * Could not have been 11 yrs of age because she doesn't appear on the 1860 Fed. Census. Could have been born later in the year, however. . .Moses, 8, b. KY . . Sarah, 6, b. KY . .Madison, 3, b. KY . .Alexander, 18, b. KY Joyce Taylor Collins La Palma, CA Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: JohnAshurst Surnames: Ball, Smith, Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.kentucky.counties.harlan/14528.3/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I have read your message and many of the follow-up messages. It is my understanding that Ellender Jane Smith's mother was not Virginia Jane Bailey, but Narcissus Ball. If any of you have evidence that Virginia Bailey is the mother, please share! Ellender Jane is my great-grandmother. Her son, Smith Marion Ball is my grandfather. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

RESPONSE: Hello, In the Bell Co., KY Marriage Index, there are these marriages listed. By ordering a couple of them, you might be able to confirm the parentage you are seeking. Dec 1, 1924 JEFFERS, Sam to LOUDEN, Bessie - Book 37, Page 45 July 30, 1921 JEFFERS, W. M. to PATTERSON, Lucy - Book 5, Page 45 Jan 16, 1937 JEFFERS, Walter to McFARLAND, Mattie - Book 95, Page 376 Joyce Taylor Collins La Palma, CA In a message dated 1/3/2008 8:50:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > I desperately need help trying to identify my great grandmother.My great > grandfather Roscoe Botts 6-22-1889 died 1967) married a Rosie (Jeffers- > Jeffires) born 3-18-1891 died 1-19-1915, unsure about the spelling of the last > name. They married around 1910 or 1911 and don't appear on any census record > together that i can find. They had two children , a son named Floyd who died as > an infant and my grandmother Nola Dee Frances Marie Botts born 10-12-1912. > Roscoe remarried very shortly after rosie's death to Bertha Thomas and never > really talked about Rosie. Rosie supposedly had two brothers Sam and Bill and > one of them died in the Baxter area of Harlan Co. Ky. around April 1929 or > 1930 as best as my grandmother could recall.

Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:48 PM Subject: Jeffers, Botts I desperately need help trying to identify my great grandmother.My great grandfather Roscoe Botts 6-22-1889 died 1967) married a Rosie (Jeffers- Jeffires) born 3-18-1891 died 1-19-1915, unsure about the spelling of the last name. They married around 1910 or 1911 and don't appear on any census record together that i can find. They had two children , a son named Floyd who died as an infant and my grandmother Nola Dee Frances Marie Botts born 10-12-1912. Roscoe remarried very shortly after rosie's death to Bertha Thomas and never really talked about Rosie. Rosie supposedly had two brothers Sam and Bill and one of them died in the Baxter area of Harlan Co. Ky. around April 1929 or 1930 as best as my grandmother could recall. I have located a family on the 1900 Federal census of civil district 7 Anderson Tenn. Consisting of Charles Jeffers, Margrett Jeffers, James W. Jeffers, Rosie J. Jeffers and Samuel O Jeffers. I would appreciate any information on this family that could confirm or reject this Rosie as the one I am looking for. I found a Rose Jane Jeffers who appears to be the same Rosie on the 1910 Census of Hignite Creek, Bell County, Ky., listed as adopted in the family of William C. Smith. Samuel Jeffers is also in this family.I would appreciate any info on this family. Thank You

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: dlrose64 Surnames: Messer - Rose Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.kentucky.counties.harlan/14619/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Trying to find info on Elizabeth Messer that married George Rose abt.1875.Think they lived on Straight Creek.Any and all info will be helpful. Thank You Danny Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.