........ I think!! Thanx to Marsha having extracted various NIBBS from the 1850 New York census (with names originally supplied to me by Graham), we can begin to make some pretty strong conjectures concerning Charles KNIBBS at the top of Ritchie and Glenn's chart. If I'm right it brings together all Don's family eg Ana, Cathy, Natascha, Dennis, Trevor etc under the same umbrella. And you are all related to Harry Herbert KNIBBS the cowboy poet - not SHAKESPEARE per Ritchie but who knows!! I can't as yet see a connection to William KNIBBS at the head of Karen DWYER's Wisconsin KNIBBS chart (Her Alfred was at Herkinmer Co, NY in 1850) but Charles was in Wisconsin in 1860 and the name William does crop up in his family. There's also the possibility of incorporating a whole host of Canadian KNIBBS, unrelated to Joyce but she is helping me to trace their origins. Part One. Let me explain. In one household at Niagara, we find (via excruciating handwriting) David NIBBS 23 or 73 (I'm going for the former) with Anne 53, Naomi 30, Charles 28, and Ellen 20 all born England. Ellen, bless her, is our linchpin. I firmly believe she is the one baptised at Deddington on 5th or 15th November 1829 to parents John and Ann. Now they had a son David baptised 31 December 1836, also in Deddington. No sign of Isaac, Charles or Naomi but read on. There is a Nehemiah baptised 25th April 1819. Now we need to check as carefully as we can that this is Nehemiah, a male presumably and that Naomi is definitely recorded as such. In some ways I hope so because I have another theory re Nehemiah - see later. There's no baptism for Charles in Deddington but as you will all know from recent correspondence, the one of interest was born on 15th February 1821, perhaps born in Ireland or Devon. If you look at the family grouping below, he would fit very nicely between Nehemiah and William. The fact that a Charles is with the family in 1850 is a clincher for me, everyting else being equal. Perhaps John and Ann did leave Deddington for a while at least. i have a hunch, but it is only a hunch, that John and sons may have gone to the tin mines of Devon/Cornwall seeking work, only to find them exhausted which led to emigration, after a brief further sejour in Oxfordshire. relative KNIBBS were already in New York by this time. You will see that I have listed an Isaac KNIBBS as the eldest child, born c1814. One such appears in the 1850 census at Buffalo, 36 born in England and married to Phoebe. She is Phoebe AVERY from my Harry Herbert KNIBBS researches. I have a copy of a letter written by a descendant of Charles to harry in which it is evidenced that they are cousins. QED? Now, there is an Isaac who was baptised at Somerton in 1824 to 'another' John and Ann. Somerton is close to deddington and the birthplace of Ana's ancestors. Was this baptism in reality a late baptism for the unbaptised Isaac bc1814? I would suggest so, as ther's no further trace of any such Isaac in England. What is 'troublesome' though, is that John the father is described as a brickmaker whereas the John we've mentioned earlier was a labourer/weaver. It's the waever description that doesn't fit. Don could you please look closely at the references in the Deddington parish records and consider, taking into account the 1850 census, whether there were two separate John/Ann families or just the one. You will see that within the database I have Anne the mother as Ann ALDRIDGE. The marriage date of 1814 sits happily with everything but we can't be 100% sure we have the right couple or even the right parents for John. However the indications are strong in which case we can say that Ann died after 1850 whilst husband John was probably not then alive. He may well have died in New York after the crossing (which boat??) which could be where family lore comes into play. We hear nothing more of David in America. Did he perhaps return to England or should I say Wales? I have an 1856 marriage in Newport, Monmouthshire which looks suspiciously his. It's at time like this that I wish I had flush funding to follow up my whim and order this particular certificate. It would disclose the identity of his father and whether alive or deceased. There again, he could be another David (from where?) but it could just be part of the additional proof that we need. Was there another US Census in 1855, can anyone tell me? I've heard mention of one and would dearly like confirmation as to which K/NIBB/S were on it. What of siblings William, John and Nehemiah (if not Naomi)? William is seemingly not Karen's (far too young) so more research needed here. John could well have gone to Canada, satisfying another family tradition but this would add a sister or two! As for Nehemiah, if you had been so baptised would you keep the name when starting a new life in a new country or would you be tempted to call yourself eg Henry? More in Part Two after some feedback on all this. bfn Alan EXTRACT FROM K/NIBB/S DATABASE - 15 March 2002 E&OE John KNIBBS Born c1785 Deddington, Oxfordshire, England Baptised 16Feb1786 Deddington Died bef1850 Not on US Census Buried Occupation Labourer/weaver cf Brickmker at Somerton Father John KNIBBS Mother Elizabeth HOLLIER Married 17Jul1814 Deddington Ann ALDRIDGE Born c1797 Deddington? Baptised Died Buried Occupation Niagara, Niagara Co 1850 Father Mother Children ----------------------------------------------------------------- Isaac KNIBBS Born c1814 England Baptised Somerton 1824? Died 20Feb1882 Toronto Buried Niagara Falls Occupation Cornish tin miner pre emigrating? Spouse Phoebe AVERY John KNIBBS Born c1816 Deddington Baptised 24Dec1816 Deddington Died Buried Occupation Spouse Mary Ann HALL? or emigrated? Nehemiah KNIBBS Born c1819 Baptised 25Apr1819 Deddington (or Naomi?) Died Buried Occupation Charles KNIBBS Born 15Feb1821 Baptised 15 Feb 1821? frm IGI? Died 23Sep1886 Verona IL Buried Ward Cemetery nr Verona Grundy Illinois Occupation Engineman Steamill Two Rivers Wisc 1860 Spouse Jane Ashfield RUMNEY William KNIBBS Born c1823 Baptised 15Nov1823 Deddington Died Buried Occupation David KNIBBS Born c1826 Deddington Baptised 31Dec1826 Died Buried Occupation Niagara 1850 - went back to England? Ellen KNIBBS Born c1829 Baptised 15Nov1829 Deddington, Oxford, England or 5th Died Buried Occupation Niagara 1850

Alan, You must be mentally exhausted having worked through, remembered and presented that lot! I'm unfortunately pushed for time this weekend so have only had time for a quick read through - as I'm sure you'll agree, it needs more than a quick look.I will certainly give it my full attention in the week. Many thanks, Don ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 9:14 PM Subject: [K/NIBB/S] Eureka! .......... > ........ I think!! > > Thanx to Marsha having extracted various NIBBS from the 1850 New > York census (with names originally supplied to me by Graham), we > can begin to make some pretty strong conjectures concerning > Charles KNIBBS at the top of Ritchie and Glenn's chart. If I'm > right it brings together all Don's family eg Ana, Cathy, > Natascha, Dennis, Trevor etc under the same umbrella. And you > are all related to Harry Herbert KNIBBS the cowboy poet - not > SHAKESPEARE per Ritchie but who knows!! > > I can't as yet see a connection to William KNIBBS at the head of > Karen DWYER's Wisconsin KNIBBS chart (Her Alfred was at Herkinmer > Co, NY in 1850) but Charles was in Wisconsin in 1860 and the name > William does crop up in his family. There's also the possibility > of incorporating a whole host of Canadian KNIBBS, unrelated to > Joyce but she is helping me to trace their origins. > > Part One. Let me explain. > > In one household at Niagara, we find (via excruciating > handwriting) David NIBBS 23 or 73 (I'm going for the former) with > Anne 53, Naomi 30, Charles 28, and Ellen 20 all born England. > Ellen, bless her, is our linchpin. I firmly believe she is the > one baptised at Deddington on 5th or 15th November 1829 to > parents John and Ann. > > Now they had a son David baptised 31 December 1836, also in > Deddington. No sign of Isaac, Charles or Naomi but read on. > There is a Nehemiah baptised 25th April 1819. Now we need to > check as carefully as we can that this is Nehemiah, a male > presumably and that Naomi is definitely recorded as such. In > some ways I hope so because I have another theory re Nehemiah - > see later. > > There's no baptism for Charles in Deddington but as you will all > know from recent correspondence, the one of interest was born on > 15th February 1821, perhaps born in Ireland or Devon. If you > look at the family grouping below, he would fit very nicely > between Nehemiah and William. The fact that a Charles is with > the family in 1850 is a clincher for me, everyting else being > equal. Perhaps John and Ann did leave Deddington for a while at > least. i have a hunch, but it is only a hunch, that John and > sons may have gone to the tin mines of Devon/Cornwall seeking > work, only to find them exhausted which led to emigration, after > a brief further sejour in Oxfordshire. relative KNIBBS were > already in New York by this time. > > You will see that I have listed an Isaac KNIBBS as the eldest > child, born c1814. One such appears in the 1850 census at > Buffalo, 36 born in England and married to Phoebe. She is Phoebe > AVERY from my Harry Herbert KNIBBS researches. I have a copy of > a letter written by a descendant of Charles to harry in which it > is evidenced that they are cousins. QED? > > Now, there is an Isaac who was baptised at Somerton in 1824 to > 'another' John and Ann. Somerton is close to deddington and the > birthplace of Ana's ancestors. Was this baptism in reality a > late baptism for the unbaptised Isaac bc1814? I would suggest so, > as ther's no further trace of any such Isaac in England. What is > 'troublesome' though, is that John the father is described as a > brickmaker whereas the John we've mentioned earlier was a > labourer/weaver. It's the waever description that doesn't fit. > Don could you please look closely at the references in the > Deddington parish records and consider, taking into account the > 1850 census, whether there were two separate John/Ann families or > just the one. > > You will see that within the database I have Anne the mother as > Ann ALDRIDGE. The marriage date of 1814 sits happily with > everything but we can't be 100% sure we have the right couple or > even the right parents for John. However the indications are > strong in which case we can say that Ann died after 1850 whilst > husband John was probably not then alive. He may well have died > in New York after the crossing (which boat??) which could be > where family lore comes into play. > > We hear nothing more of David in America. Did he perhaps return > to England or should I say Wales? I have an 1856 marriage in > Newport, Monmouthshire which looks suspiciously his. It's at > time like this that I wish I had flush funding to follow up my > whim and order this particular certificate. It would disclose > the identity of his father and whether alive or deceased. There > again, he could be another David (from where?) but it could just > be part of the additional proof that we need. > > Was there another US Census in 1855, can anyone tell me? I've > heard mention of one and would dearly like confirmation as to > which K/NIBB/S were on it. > > What of siblings William, John and Nehemiah (if not Naomi)? > William is seemingly not Karen's (far too young) so more research > needed here. John could well have gone to Canada, satisfying > another family tradition but this would add a sister or two! As > for Nehemiah, if you had been so baptised would you keep the name when > starting a new life in a new country or would you be tempted to > call yourself eg Henry? More in Part Two after some feedback on all this. > > bfn > > Alan > > > EXTRACT FROM K/NIBB/S DATABASE - 15 March 2002 > E&OE > > > John KNIBBS > Born c1785 Deddington, Oxfordshire, England > Baptised 16Feb1786 Deddington > Died bef1850 Not on US Census > Buried > Occupation Labourer/weaver cf Brickmker at Somerton > Father John KNIBBS > Mother Elizabeth HOLLIER > > Married 17Jul1814 Deddington > > Ann ALDRIDGE > Born c1797 Deddington? > Baptised > Died > Buried > Occupation Niagara, Niagara Co 1850 > Father > Mother > > Children > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Isaac KNIBBS > Born c1814 England > Baptised Somerton 1824? > Died 20Feb1882 Toronto > Buried Niagara Falls > Occupation Cornish tin miner pre emigrating? > Spouse Phoebe AVERY > > John KNIBBS > Born c1816 Deddington > Baptised 24Dec1816 Deddington > Died > Buried > Occupation > Spouse Mary Ann HALL? or emigrated? > > Nehemiah KNIBBS > Born c1819 > Baptised 25Apr1819 Deddington (or Naomi?) > Died > Buried > Occupation > > Charles KNIBBS > Born 15Feb1821 > Baptised 15 Feb 1821? frm IGI? > Died 23Sep1886 Verona IL > Buried Ward Cemetery nr Verona Grundy Illinois > Occupation Engineman Steamill Two Rivers Wisc 1860 > Spouse Jane Ashfield RUMNEY > > William KNIBBS > Born c1823 > Baptised 15Nov1823 Deddington > Died > Buried > Occupation > > David KNIBBS > Born c1826 Deddington > Baptised 31Dec1826 > Died > Buried > Occupation Niagara 1850 - went back to England? > > Ellen KNIBBS > Born c1829 > Baptised 15Nov1829 Deddington, Oxford, England or 5th > Died > Buried > Occupation Niagara 1850 > > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >