Alan/Bob, All we have in the PR is Francis KNIBBS, Steeple Barton, Mary SODEN, Steeple Barton, so nothing that helps at all. There are no Banns at Deddington that help either. The information from Bob re the Fancis/Ann marriage is interesting and certainly adds further doubt to the marriage between Francis b. 1767 and Mary SODEN. The marriage of Francis b. 1767 to Ann POWELL is certainly a better match. It may of course be coincidental that 3 of the children from the Francis and Ann POWELL are named after siblings of Francis b. 1767 - the 4th after Francis himself. The date of Francis' death equating to a birth in 1767 would seem to be pretty conclusive. I wonder how we can verify it all? >From what I'm seeing, I'm pretty sure the current Francis KNIBBS/Mary SODEN marriage is incorrect. What Bob has found look very much like it is the correct marriage of Francis b. Deddington 1767. The Francis b. Deddington 1793 is more likely to be the one who married Mary SODEN, but who does he belong to? He's not one of mine. If we're right, someone's in line for a pleasant surprise. If you can think of which certificates we need to get hold of to solve the mystery for good, let me know and I'd be happy to dig into my pocket! Back to the original topic, does it get you any closer to linking the two families with the drinking Edwins? Don ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [K/NIBB/S] Edwins galore > Don > > Replying in line; > > > I've looked up the bits I know of Francis, his marriage to Mary Anne SODEN > > and the kids from the marriage. > > > > There is a significant age difference between this Francis and Mary Anne - > > 27 years. Unfortunately, there's nothing in the Steeple Barton PR transcript > > against the marriage to confirm Francis' age when he married or whether or > > not he was a widower. It was a trifle early for that type of information to > > > > However am I right in saying that this Francis' parents were there suggesting > it is him rather than Francis bp 1793. > > > > > We can however learn quite a bit from the will of Francis KNIBBS who married > > Mary Anne SODEN, but reading through, there is nothing to confirm or deny > > that we have the right Francis. The will confirms his marriage to Mary Anne, > > the name of their children, a later marriage to an Unknown Ann and more > > children from that marriage. If indeed it is the right Francis, he was > > producing babies up till he was 70-odd years old! We know that when the will > > was written in January 1852, that this Francis was living at Islington in > > London. Finally, we know that the will was proved on 10th May 1856, so > > Francis must have died shortly before then. > > > > I wonder if perhaps Bob can see a Francis death at about this time. An age > > > > Too early for GRO indices to give age at death but the certificate can be > ordered. I have the full reference. > > > Bob came up with this. > > ''I have been checking the two trees you sent re Francis 1757? > to 1856 m Mary Soden. In which you expressed doubt that > we had the right Francis. > > ...the following from the IGI > > Francis and Ann Knibbs > Living in Worcester [Ann POWELL infact and wedding 1794] > Children > Sarah 1797 > Francis 1803 > Henry 1805 > James 1807'' > > Francis dies 1813 in Worcester with age given in Parish Register which > equates to an 1867 date of birth. Coincidence or what? > > bfn > > Alan > > > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB >

Further to my last, I can now see the other Deddington Francis that Alan suggests fits more happily with the 1818 marriage to Mary Anne SODEN. I agree, this Francis, baptised Sep 1793 looks to be a much better fit than the one baptised in 1767. He's of a similar age to Mary Anne (slightly older). Sadly, whilst I can see his baptism at Deddington I can't find any connection to my line, so this theory (which I must admit I'm coming to accept as the more likely marriage) blasts a huge chunk out of my data. It's not a major loss - just my link into London. Does anyone have a connection to Francis' parents, Thomas & Hannah KNIBBS, known to be making babies in Deddington between 1791 and 1796? The Deddington children were John Wells KNIBBS, bap 1791, Francis KNIBBS, bap. 1793, and George, bap. 1796. Maybe the "Wells" as a second Christian name gives a clue? Don

on 17th October, Alan wrote: > Can anyone link these two trees? Note in particular the Edwins who all seem, > from census info, to be related to drink, if not to each other! > I'm having doubts about Francis being born c1767 unless he indeed married a > previous time where possibly the connection is to be found. There is though > a later Francis baptised at Deddington who might fit more happily with the > 1818 marriage. What became of the other anyway? I've looked up the bits I know of Francis, his marriage to Mary Anne SODEN and the kids from the marriage. There is a significant age difference between this Francis and Mary Anne - 27 years. Unfortunately, there's nothing in the Steeple Barton PR transcript against the marriage to confirm Francis' age when he married or whether or not he was a widower. It was a trifle early for that type of information to appear. We can however learn quite a bit from the will of Francis KNIBBS who married Mary Anne SODEN, but reading through, there is nothing to confirm or deny that we have the right Francis. The will confirms his marriage to Mary Anne, the name of their children, a later marriage to an Unknown Ann and more children from that marriage. If indeed it is the right Francis, he was producing babies up till he was 70-odd years old! We know that when the will was written in January 1852, that this Francis was living at Islington in London. Finally, we know that the will was proved on 10th May 1856, so Francis must have died shortly before then. I wonder if perhaps Bob can see a Francis death at about this time. An age at time of death would be great if we can find it anywhere. Don (now with doubts in his mind too!)

Alan. The email address I have for Gordon Charles Knibbs is not getting through. I suspect he has changed it. What do you have for an email address for him? Ritchie Thomas

Alan/Stuart Replying in-line... > I too had Beverley's and was most interested to read in her reply > that her grandfather met Arthur's in the dole queue. Actually, my grandfather met Arthur's father. > I had imagined that > Arthur had emigrated on his own but now we have another 'family' > to look for - however Arthur and Pamela had no children so I was told. Alan, e-mailing you separately as promised re Arthur's family. No children for A & P is correct. > You'll have noticed that Eric A B was born to Florence E, > presumably KELLY from the 1914 marriage. > I had picked up an obituary of Cecil's death from > the Sydney Herald. No doubt Beverley will report back to us idc > on whether any connection with her family - or perhaps Arthur's > notwithstanding the S. No known connection for KNIBBS, (or KNIBB - at least at this stage). However, a few windows currently opening so may need to keep in mind as I piece things together. Alan... By the way, can you let me know how/where you picked up Sydney Morning Herald Obits? I looked up their website but was unable to see anything there... but then I've been known to search with blinkers on at times. <Hee Hee> > I'm also wondering if the Henry born to James & Ann could be hers > as she has a James, railroader, unaccounted for in later life. I'd have to say probably not. Living family here have no knowledge of any of my grandfather KNIBBS' siblings ever coming to "OZ". Remembering that my grandparents were first cousins, the only relatives to emigrate here (some years before 1926?) were my grandmother's widowed mother Flora Elizabeth DAVIES nee KNIBBS and some of my grandmother's siblings, some with spouse. However, I'm awaiting response from Pat Walker about whether her father knows if "our" James, railroader, remained all his life around Cardiff/Wales or perhaps moved elsewhere in England - let alone anywhere overseas such as Australia. If anything eventuates to the positive, then shall get back to you. > The Wilfred W F H death > is also a new one for me, so the hunt is on for Albert & Kate. Because the name with all initials sounded somewhat familiar, I checked some old hand copied names from NSW BDM on Fiche at the local FHC and found that I had transcribed a "Winifred" (instead of Wilfred) W F H KNIBBS death registered Hurstville 1931, same parents as noted by Stuart. Because I could well have copied in error, I shall re-check next time I get to the FHC. Internet site definitely has Wilfred as noted by Stuart. Well, that's all, bye now Bev --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 9/10/2001

Don Replying in line; > I've looked up the bits I know of Francis, his marriage to Mary Anne SODEN > and the kids from the marriage. > > There is a significant age difference between this Francis and Mary Anne - > 27 years. Unfortunately, there's nothing in the Steeple Barton PR transcript > against the marriage to confirm Francis' age when he married or whether or > not he was a widower. It was a trifle early for that type of information to > However am I right in saying that this Francis' parents were there suggesting it is him rather than Francis bp 1793. > > We can however learn quite a bit from the will of Francis KNIBBS who married > Mary Anne SODEN, but reading through, there is nothing to confirm or deny > that we have the right Francis. The will confirms his marriage to Mary Anne, > the name of their children, a later marriage to an Unknown Ann and more > children from that marriage. If indeed it is the right Francis, he was > producing babies up till he was 70-odd years old! We know that when the will > was written in January 1852, that this Francis was living at Islington in > London. Finally, we know that the will was proved on 10th May 1856, so > Francis must have died shortly before then. > > I wonder if perhaps Bob can see a Francis death at about this time. An age > Too early for GRO indices to give age at death but the certificate can be ordered. I have the full reference. Bob came up with this. ''I have been checking the two trees you sent re Francis 1757? to 1856 m Mary Soden. In which you expressed doubt that we had the right Francis. ...the following from the IGI Francis and Ann Knibbs Living in Worcester [Ann POWELL infact and wedding 1794] Children Sarah 1797 Francis 1803 Henry 1805 James 1807'' Francis dies 1813 in Worcester with age given in Parish Register which equates to an 1867 date of birth. Coincidence or what? bfn Alan

Greetings Looking back through some old letters that I have received form adverts placed in several magazines I wondered if they may be of some usee to fellow researchers. They are as follows One from relatives who married in Croughton in 1894 - they were Sarah Allen and George Knibbs. One from Little Marlow. About William Knibb who was transported to Van Diemans Land in 1831 One from a man who's mother was born in London but her father William came from Wesbury / Finmere area. One from a man who's relatives moved from Swereford in 1850 to Birmingham. One concerning the marriage of Bartholemew Knibb who was baptised in Stoke Goldington. One concerning a William Stanton Knibb. b 1881 Liverpool One concernibg a William George Cyril Knibbs from Brackley Finally, one from a lady who has traced her line back to Richard and Sarah Knibbs in Deddington, between 1760 and 1770. All these letters are about 3 - 5 years old. Any use? Thanks Richard

Ana > Alan once > mentioned another James knibbs in Washington, DC {I believe} that he keeps > getting mixed up with my Uncle James Harvey that lives in West Virginia. I > was wondering if the James Knibbs he found is actually Uncle Corny's son > James or a descendant of him. > Yes, I found a James KNIBBS at 1238 New Jersey Ave, Washington DC in 1920. I had wondered if he was the James born c1879 who appears on the 1880 Census with Joseph H and Annie E (nee WALLACE). That was just speculation particularly as I think you have him as James J. If Cornelius's son is the 1920 recorded James then he would have been 68 years old, so it quite conceivably could be him. If wife Edith shows up there as well that would resolve. As for James Harvey KNIBBS, you will see from the tree that I put together that I have him as your cousin. Now, if he is your uncle that explains why I was troubled with his birthdate. Please confirm the details of his father and those of your grandfather, off list if appropriate. bfn Alan

Don, I wrote to the Joyce lady that was listed on that web site for Baradford,Co.,PA. With that information you found I can take it further at the national Archive center in Pittsfield Mass. No, I never found out more info on James' brother George or James' sister either. But Alan once mentioned another James knibbs in Washington, DC {I believe} that he keeps getting mixed up with my Uncle James Harvey that lives in West Virginia. I was wondering if the James Knibbs he found is actually Uncle Corny's son James or a descendant of him. Ana

Ana, Sadly, I think my luck has run out now as I've been searching for the past few hours and found nothing new. I've dropped a message onto a query system for Bradford Co. PA to see if anyone comes back with any more info but other than that, nothing. It goes like that though. Months and months go by with nothing interesting turning up and then from just a tiny snippet of information, there a sudden flurry. By the way, what happened to George Knibbs, the brother of James and Cornelius? Have you found any info on him anywhere? Don ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 11:57 PM Subject: Re: [K/NIBB/S] Cornelius KNIBBS, Bradford Co., PA > Don, > You are a miracle finder. I can't believe how much you have found. I cannot > thank you enough. > Ana > > > ============================== > Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate > your heritage! > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog >

> 2. Mary Jane KNIBB first came to my knowledge via John KNIBBS extracts of a > Northampton parish register. The published National Probate Calendar (later > typed out by Robin) revealed she left a Will on her death in 1911 and that > she lived in a posh address in Whitehall. Michael PEARMAN obtained further > details for me but she hadn't left the fortune that I had, perhaps > optimistically, imagined. The 1881 census listed her as a housekeeper to an > MP. In 1891, she is at the same address but then housekeeper to the Duke of > Buccleuch. Rose-Marie, is that the closest your tree gets to royal stock? Alan It is obvious to me I must do more homework. This is the second time recently you have mentioned something on my tree that I do not recognize. Could you remind me who Mary Jane KNIBB. The Duke of Buccleuch has Boughton House which is very close to Geddington and Newton so this Mary Jane probably worked there first and then went to their town house. As for getting close to royal stock - brothers and sons-in-law have hobnobbed with royalty, prime ministers and presidents from time to time. On my maternal line one gt gt grandfather, Minister of Tomintoul, Scotland preached to Queen Victoria. And Gilbert's father came into contact with Edward Vlll when he was in the RAF in Norfolk However, we haven't found the blue blood connection - yet! regards to all Rose-Marie

Hi Marsha and Alan Well,Well,Well. I'm constantly astounded by the snippets that appear on the mailing list. My long held belief that 'my' Knibb line was comprised of people not inclined toward the leaving of merry England has been dashed by your ISTG discovery and has opened a brand new area of research for me. Just have to find out what Laura T and Albert E managed to get up to in the States. Thought that the age discrepancy might have led to Lavinia T and Laura T being two different persons as the passenger manifest listed age 30 should have been 38 based on age 14 at the 1881 census however IGI listed baptismal date for Laura Theresa is certainly 17Feb1867 so I guess the transcribers may have misread a badly written 38 as a 30. Sounds reasonable to me Also Alan, your database printout of the first generation descendants of John Knibb, (c1829) Stoneleigh,shows the many database gaps that still need filling so I'd better retire my time consuming Kenilworth John Knibb to the backburner for now and return to the Birmingham lot who were no doubt feeling a bit left out, as it's a couple of years since I last looked at them. Thanks Marsha for a really appreciated piece of info, Lucky W. Watson, [email protected]

Don, You are a miracle finder. I can't believe how much you have found. I cannot thank you enough. Ana

Lucky > I guess the transcribers may have misread a badly written 38 as a 30. Sounds > reasonable to me > > Yes, I thought so too. I suspect she returned to England marrying George JOHNSON 03 qtr1913 Warwick District. At least a Laura T did from GRO entries. She would have been aged c 1846 but no other candidates as yet. I haven't tracked Albert E either in the States or elsewhere. bfn Alan

Don/Ana Well done indeed for all the info on Cornelius. There was a clue of a link to Athens township as Hannah died there on 11 August 1881. bfn Alan

I have found quite a lot more detail about Cornelius Knibbs and his family for those who are interested. I've listed below: 1. A few details of Cornelius as a Borough Councillor 2. The marriage of his son James J Knibbs 3. Census details from Athens Borough, Bradford County, PA. 4. A gravestone inscription. 1. From what I can make out, Cornelius was a Councillor within the Borough of Athens and it can be seen in the details of the Athens Township History at http://www.rootsweb.com/~pabradfo/bradsby/athenhb2.htm that he was elected (presumably) to serve in the capacity of Borough Councillor every year between 1883 and 1888. Interestingly (given that Cornelius was a bridge builder) at the June meeting of 1876, on motion of J M Ely, it was unanimously resolved that the borough would subscribe$1,000, provided the citizens would subscribe $500, and would pay $900 of this amount to the Chemung Bridge Company in full for their bridge, and make the same a free bridge. The records go on to say "the people were clamorous for free bridges". Was there perhaps an ulterior motive to Cornelius becoming a Councillor? Surely not! 2. I've now found the marriage of Cornelius' son James J Knibbs. At http://www.rootsweb.com/~patioga/newspapr/tcobt136.htm it can be seen that: KNIBBS/TALADA - MARRIAGE At the residence of Mr. Cornelius Knibbs, No. 15 Water Street, Athens, on the evening of Sept. 16 1885, by Rev. J H Sage, pastor of the Baptist Church of Georgestown, N.Y., James J Knibbs to Miss Edith Talada, both of Athens, Pa. 3. At http://www.rootsweb.com/~pabradfo/census/1880ath4.htm there are details of the 1880 census for the Athens Borough, Bradford County, PA. It shows Cornelius aged 45 years with an occupation given as "wk.bridge.shop". He and his parents were all born in England. Rosmaud his wife, aged 43 years, occupation of housekeeper. Rosmaud (or Rosmand) and her parents were all born in England. James, his son aged 18 years, occupation given as "wk.bridge.shop" the same as his dad, and born in New York. Elizabeth, his daughter aged 16 years, attending school, and also born in New York. 4. And finally, at http://www.rootsweb.com/~pabradfo/cemetery/tiogptk2.htm I've found what I presume is a gravestone inscription from Tioga Point Cemetery, Athens Borough, Bradford County, Pennsylvania which says: Knibbs, Cornelius 1834 - 1904 Rosamond C,., his wife 1837 - _____ I suspect that of all the different spellings we've found for Rosmand/Rosmaud/Rosamond, the gravestone inscription is probably the right one. Don

........If listers could mention what they have in a message to all, I will be happy to amend and update the website as a permanent record. All, My starter for 10. Most of my research is via the PR transcripts from Oxfordshire. I have checked the following parishes. Not all have K/NIBB/S entries but nevertheless, that in itself can be useful to know. Adderbury Banbury Bapts 1839-1935 Banbury Baptism & Burials 1723-1812 Banbury Baptism & Burials 1813-1837 Banbury Burials 1839-1920 Banbury Marriages 1558-1837 Banbury Marriages 1837-1931 Barford St. John Charlbury Charlton on Otmoor Chipping Norton Baptisms to 1962 Chipping Norton Burials to 1971 Chipping Norton Marriages to 1990 Clifton Hampdon Cropredy Deddington Duns Tew Enstone Hethe Hook Norton Kidlington 1574-1837 Kidlington 1837 onwards Lower Heyford Nether Worton North Aston Shorthampton Somerton Steeple Aston Steeple Barton Swerford Westcote Barton Details of the microfiche files available from the OFHS can be viewed at http://members.aol.com/OFHS/mfiche.htm Don

> Not sure who the Rosmond is but I believe the Cornelius is my > great,great,uncle.He is son of Joseph and Hannah {Anna} Knibbs. The family > migrated over from England in 1839. I'm going to look more into it next week. > Thanks for the lead. > Ana I've now dug a little deeper into the Bradford, PA 1880 Federal census and can see that Rosmand KNIBBS was the wife of Cornelius. Elizbibeth and James were their children. By the way, "Cornilus" and "Elizbibeth" are how they're written on the census record. For those not fully in the picture on this one, Cornelius was the youngest son of Joseph KNIBBS from Somerton, Oxfordshire, UK. He emigrated to New York with his wife Hannah and four children in 1840. Ana has done a tremendous amount of research and found that Joseph was the Janitor at the Albany Medical College, New York. There is a commemorative plaque still on display today dedicated to Joseph and the 30 years of valuable service he gave to the hospital. The plaque is the same size as the plaque of the hospital founder, so he was obviously well thought of. Joseph's oldest son James became famous with an invention called "The Knibbs Runaround". This was an attachment to horse-drawn steam fire engines which prevented a waste of water and saved the hose and suction pipes. The Run Around was utilized almost everywhere. Cornelius was "spotted" in New York in 1875 but then disappeared. Now we've found where he was went, perhaps we'll learn more. I hadn't spotted my own connection to Cornelius until Alan pointed it out. He would be my 3rd cousin 4 times removed. Almost certainly not on my Christmas card list but nevertheless, connected! Don

Don, Well, done. I liked the last line it made me chuckle. Ana

Not sure who the Rosmond is but I believe the Cornelius is my great,great,uncle.He is son of Joseph and Hannah {Anna} Knibbs. The family migrated over from England in 1839. I'm going to look more into it next week. Thanks for the lead. Ana