Sue, I think he pulled his data from the project. His results came back in October 2011. I believe Don said someone left because of what was said on the list. This may have been related to my frustration with people not supplying their earliest known ancestor. I got notification of close matches to some kits I watch. However, nothing further was given which frustrated me. I turned out to be this kit. I did not mean to pick on this or any one particular participant. My comments were intended to change the admission requirements. Some DNA groups won't let people join unless they have tested positive for a certain clade. I was hoping we simply require people to give us the names of their earliest known ancestors (just names and not documentation) before getting the group discount. Anyway, I gave my opinion, but nothing positive came of it so that was the end of that. My choice of AAVs comes from looking at the AAVs of the previous groups we spawned from. We would be mutating away from them, not towards them from a vacuum. This is where you and I differ. You are looking at the Kincaid project as a self-contained or isolated group. I am taking into consideration where we came from. The difference between str testing and snp testing is that str testing looks at a defined repeat pattern over a number of base pairs, whereas snp testing looks at just one base pair. I believe that statistically the latter is expected to occur once in 7000 years. Any change in a str marker is the result of one or more snps mutating. Two different people could have a recent change in a str value (say 11 to 12) and technically not be closely related. Two different people with a recent change at one base pair (say from C to T) are almost certainly closely related. The odds of this happening at the same base pair is just too slim. Don and John match on the six named snps I noted. They also match on a couple of others that are not named and won't be testable at YSEQ. However, they also have a number of private snps unique to their particular lines. Another Kincaid may come along and do the Big Y test and match up with either Don or John on a number of these private snps. In that case, these would identify their particular branch for all posterity. Key to remember here is that a str exact match may not be an exact match. A str could be 11 for two people because one went from 11 to 12 and then back to 11 due to TWO snp mutations. On the other hand, an exact match at a know Kincaid snp means those two people are Kincaids who came from that branch point. At some point, we will know all the branch point snps and also be able to put a better time estimate on the branch points as a snp mutation seems to occur every 100 to 140 years. The chances of two Kincaids with the same snps as Don (or John for that matter) and not being closely related to him is zero. YSEQ is not a new program in the sense that they are actually making snps tests based on Family Tree DNA results. Don and John did the Big Y test with Family Tree DNA. This expensive test of 11.5 to 12.5 million base-pairs on the Y chromosome is the one that discovered the snps common to Don and John as well as their private snps. YSEQ is just being really quick on making individual snps testable. Over time I am sure that Family Tree DNA will make a number of them available as well. At that point, current participants can just order the snps from their personal page without having to submit a new sample. If a person wants to see if they are closely related to Don, then they should be testing his private snps, not the ones he has in common with John. Likewise, if one wants to see of they are closely related to John. We know their private snps, but they are not named yet. If one is interested, then they could ask YSEQ to make the test available. Chances are they will. SNP testing is changing the game and could make str testing obsolete. It will come down to which can be packaged more cheaply. For example, a 67 marker test for $100 could out do snp testing at $25 a snp. A long message here. Hopefully, it answered a few things for you and others. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Sue Liedtke Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 12:23 PM To: kincaid@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [KINCAID] SNP testing update Peter, When I couldn't find kit #213942 on the chart I checked the FTDNA list of project members and could not find it there either. Am I missing something or is there a typo? The choice of #2564 reflects your evaluation that the 11 at marker 4 (DYS391) is the AAV for Group A. Since I believe the 11 is the result of multiple mutations from the AAV of 12, it is my view that #4073 and #2562 are the best representatives for set 1a. I don't want to get into a discussion on our differences but do have a question.Would a single mutation over 67 markers make any difference in the SNP result implications? We have 5 other A-1a participants who have only 1 mutation over 67 markers: #33919, #102911, #96496, #155437, and #190139. Would it be of like value if one of them chose to be tested? Am I understanding this correctly? Isn't what is needed is confirmation of Don's (A1b) results from A-1a or A-1c and confirmation of John's (A-3) results by testing a representative from A-2 as both A-3 and A-2 have the 9 at marker 15 (DYS 459b)? I agree no mutations from the AAV is preferable, however, since both Don and John have quite a few differences and match on these SNPs it seems to me that participants with 1 or 2 mutations over 67 markers who match either Don or John at marker 15 and do not match either at any other mutation would work to confirm that those SNPs are common to all Group A Kincaids. Drawing from a larger pool may produce more participation then limiting test value to just a couple of people, who may or may not be able and willing to test. Since YSEQ is a new program, I am wondering if current participation is large enough for these SNPs can to be viewed as statistically significant in determining that those who have them are closely related. i.e. What are the chances that an unrelated Y family may show up at some time with the same results? I can see where this advancement would be of high value and quite exciting in discovering early connections if it can be confirmed that 1) all Group A Kincaids share these SNP values and 2) any other Y-family sharing these values is related. As the program gets larger, this has the potential of being an immense benefit in determinig origins for all of our Kincaid groups. Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Kincaid" <7kincaid@nb.sympatico.ca> To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] SNP testing update >I should add that Group A participants with kit nos. > 213942 and 2564 would be the most helpful to > test as they are highest up the tree in terms of > branching at 67 markers. Thus, if they have all of > the below 6 snps then chances are everyone else in > Group A will also. > > Peter > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Kincaid > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:23 PM > To: KINCAID@rootsweb.com > Subject: [KINCAID] SNP testing update > > Hello everyone, > > Don Kincaid has really done a top notch job in pushing forward > the new aspect of dna testing for genealogical purposes. Thanks > to him, and to John Kincaid, for participating in the Big Y project > at FTDNA we now have six named Kincaid snps common to both of them. > They are: > > R-FGC1389 > R-A321 > R-A323 > R-Z1370.2 > R-A322 and > R-A326 > > The first four are available now for testing at YSEQ at: > > http://shop.yseq.net/index.php?manufacturers_id=34&sort=2a&filter_id=1 > > YSEQ is a recent startup company by Thomas Krahn, who was formerly > the main geneticist with Family Tree DNA. > > For those interested in this testing, there is currently a sale on with > YSEQ. Until Fathers Day, one can order snps for $25 US each. > > This price highlights the objective for going down this route. At some > point, future Kincaids will be able find out if they belong to Group A > Kincaids for as little as $25US. We are not there yet as we are not > certain if the above six snps are common to all Group A Kincaids. Only > some should be. It is only after more Group A Kincaids test that we will > be able to say which applies to which cluster of Kincaids. The reality > is that any present Group A Kincaids testing will not learn anything new > about themselves. They will simply be a pioneer with this and help future > Kincaid testers. > > If any Group A participants are curious enough to participate, then my > suggestion for order is Z1370.2, FGC1389, A321, A323. If you participate > then please let me or Don know. > > Best wishes! > > Peter Kincaid > > > > > > For complete information about the Kincaid of all spellings DNA project, > including a chart, lineages, and how to participate, go to: > > www.kincaiddna.org > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > For complete information about the Kincaid of all spellings DNA project, > including a chart, lineages, and how to participate, go to: > > www.kincaiddna.org > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message For complete information about the Kincaid of all spellings DNA project, including a chart, lineages, and how to participate, go to: www.kincaiddna.org ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Peter would you email me privately about your statements regarding more testing for 2564. thanks jeffancom@yahoo.com Jeff Bergman 360-430-7305 > On May 22, 2014, at 11:44 AM, "Peter Kincaid" <7kincaid@nb.sympatico.ca> wrote: > > Sue, I think he pulled his data from the project. His results came back > in October 2011. I believe Don said someone left because of what was > said on the list. This may have been related to my frustration with people > not supplying their earliest known ancestor. I got notification of close > matches to some kits I watch. However, nothing further was given which > frustrated me. I turned out to be this kit. I did not mean to pick on this > or any one particular participant. My comments were intended to change > the admission requirements. Some DNA groups won't let people join unless > they have tested positive for a certain clade. I was hoping we simply > require people to give us the names of their earliest known ancestors > (just names and not documentation) before getting the group discount. > Anyway, I gave my opinion, but nothing positive came of it so that was the > end of that. > > My choice of AAVs comes from looking at the AAVs of the previous > groups we spawned from. We would be mutating away from them, > not towards them from a vacuum. This is where you and I differ. You > are looking at the Kincaid project as a self-contained or isolated group. > I am taking into consideration where we came from. > > The difference between str testing and snp testing is that str testing looks > at a defined repeat pattern over a number of base pairs, whereas snp testing > looks at just one base pair. I believe that statistically the latter is > expected > to occur once in 7000 years. Any change in a str marker is the result of > one > or more snps mutating. Two different people could have a recent change in a > str value (say 11 to 12) and technically not be closely related. Two > different > people with a recent change at one base pair (say from C to T) are almost > certainly closely related. The odds of this happening at the same base pair > is just too slim. > > Don and John match on the six named snps I noted. They also match on > a couple of others that are not named and won't be testable at YSEQ. > However, they also have a number of private snps unique to their particular > lines. Another Kincaid may come along and do the Big Y test and match up > with either Don or John on a number of these private snps. In that case, > these would identify their particular branch for all posterity. > > Key to remember here is that a str exact match may not be an exact match. > A str could be 11 for two people because one went from 11 to 12 and then > back to 11 due to TWO snp mutations. On the other hand, an exact match > at a know Kincaid snp means those two people are Kincaids who came > from that branch point. At some point, we will know all the branch point > snps and also be able to put a better time estimate on the branch > points as a snp mutation seems to occur every 100 to 140 years. > > The chances of two Kincaids with the same snps as Don (or John for that > matter) and not being closely related to him is zero. > > YSEQ is not a new program in the sense that they are actually making > snps tests based on Family Tree DNA results. Don and John did the > Big Y test with Family Tree DNA. This expensive test of 11.5 to 12.5 > million base-pairs on the Y chromosome is the one that discovered > the snps common to Don and John as well as their private snps. YSEQ > is just being really quick on making individual snps testable. Over time > I am sure that Family Tree DNA will make a number of them available > as well. At that point, current participants can just order the snps from > their personal page without having to submit a new sample. > > If a person wants to see if they are closely related to Don, then they > should be testing his private snps, not the ones he has in common with > John. Likewise, if one wants to see of they are closely related to > John. We know their private snps, but they are not named yet. If one > is interested, then they could ask YSEQ to make the test available. > Chances are they will. > > SNP testing is changing the game and could make str testing obsolete. > It will come down to which can be packaged more cheaply. For example, a > 67 marker test for $100 could out do snp testing at $25 a snp. > > A long message here. Hopefully, it answered a few things for you > and others. > > Peter > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sue Liedtke > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 12:23 PM > To: kincaid@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] SNP testing update > > Peter, When I couldn't find kit #213942 on the chart I checked the FTDNA > list of project members and could not find it there either. Am I missing > something or is there a typo? > > The choice of #2564 reflects your evaluation that the 11 at marker 4 > (DYS391) is the AAV for Group A. Since I believe the 11 is the result of > multiple mutations from the AAV of 12, it is my view that #4073 and #2562 > are the best representatives for set 1a. I don't want to get into a > discussion on our differences but do have a question.Would a single mutation > over 67 markers make any difference in the SNP result implications? We have > 5 other A-1a participants who have only 1 mutation over 67 markers: #33919, > #102911, #96496, #155437, and #190139. Would it be of like value if one of > them chose to be tested? > > Am I understanding this correctly? Isn't what is needed is confirmation of > Don's (A1b) results from A-1a or A-1c and confirmation of John's (A-3) > results by testing a representative from A-2 as both A-3 and A-2 have the 9 > at marker 15 (DYS 459b)? I agree no mutations from the AAV is preferable, > however, since both Don and John have quite a few differences and match on > these SNPs it seems to me that participants with 1 or 2 mutations over 67 > markers who match either Don or John at marker 15 and do not match either at > any other mutation would work to confirm that those SNPs are common to all > Group A Kincaids. > > Drawing from a larger pool may produce more participation then limiting test > value to just a couple of people, who may or may not be able and willing to > test. > > Since YSEQ is a new program, I am wondering if current participation is > large enough for these SNPs can to be viewed as statistically significant in > determining that those who have them are closely related. i.e. What are the > chances that an unrelated Y family may show up at some time with the same > results? > > I can see where this advancement would be of high value and quite exciting > in discovering early connections if it can be confirmed that 1) all Group A > Kincaids share these SNP values and 2) any other Y-family sharing these > values is related. As the program gets larger, this has the potential of > being an immense benefit in determinig origins for all of our Kincaid > groups. > > Sue Liedtke > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Kincaid" <7kincaid@nb.sympatico.ca> > To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 11:30 AM > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] SNP testing update > > >> I should add that Group A participants with kit nos. >> 213942 and 2564 would be the most helpful to >> test as they are highest up the tree in terms of >> branching at 67 markers. Thus, if they have all of >> the below 6 snps then chances are everyone else in >> Group A will also. >> >> Peter >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Peter Kincaid >> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:23 PM >> To: KINCAID@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [KINCAID] SNP testing update >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> Don Kincaid has really done a top notch job in pushing forward >> the new aspect of dna testing for genealogical purposes. Thanks >> to him, and to John Kincaid, for participating in the Big Y project >> at FTDNA we now have six named Kincaid snps common to both of them. >> They are: >> >> R-FGC1389 >> R-A321 >> R-A323 >> R-Z1370.2 >> R-A322 and >> R-A326 >> >> The first four are available now for testing at YSEQ at: >> >> http://shop.yseq.net/index.php?manufacturers_id=34&sort=2a&filter_id=1 >> >> YSEQ is a recent startup company by Thomas Krahn, who was formerly >> the main geneticist with Family Tree DNA. >> >> For those interested in this testing, there is currently a sale on with >> YSEQ. Until Fathers Day, one can order snps for $25 US each. >> >> This price highlights the objective for going down this route. At some >> point, future Kincaids will be able find out if they belong to Group A >> Kincaids for as little as $25US. We are not there yet as we are not >> certain if the above six snps are common to all Group A Kincaids. Only >> some should be. It is only after more Group A Kincaids test that we will >> be able to say which applies to which cluster of Kincaids. The reality >> is that any present Group A Kincaids testing will not learn anything new >> about themselves. They will simply be a pioneer with this and help future >> Kincaid testers. >> >> If any Group A participants are curious enough to participate, then my >> suggestion for order is Z1370.2, FGC1389, A321, A323. If you participate >> then please let me or Don know. >> >> Best wishes! >> >> Peter Kincaid >> >> >> >> >> >> For complete information about the Kincaid of all spellings DNA project, >> including a chart, lineages, and how to participate, go to: >> >> www.kincaiddna.org >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> For complete information about the Kincaid of all spellings DNA project, >> including a chart, lineages, and how to participate, go to: >> >> www.kincaiddna.org >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > For complete information about the Kincaid of all spellings DNA project, > including a chart, lineages, and how to participate, go to: > > www.kincaiddna.org > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > For complete information about the Kincaid of all spellings DNA project, including a chart, lineages, and how to participate, go to: > > www.kincaiddna.org > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message