Hi Everyone, This is a great thread to add questions about SNP-DNA DEEP CLADE CLASSIFICATION. A number of us have paid to have these extra tests to help us determine more narrowly defined Haplogroups. Since I just received results from some of the new tests, I share them and then ask what everyone else has learned about these so far. I'm in Kincaid Group C-2, so presumably the other members of this group would get similar results and they should differ substantially from Group A members. Here's my test results so far, which can get me only as far as classification into Haplogroup R1b1b2: Positive Outcomes: M173+ M207+ M269+ M343+ P25+ Negative Outcomes: M126- M153- M160- M18- M222- M37- M65- M73- P66- SRY2627- Latest Negative Outcomes: P107- U106- U152- U198- Family tree has a nice flow chart to show where everyone's haplogroups are. There's information about this under "Whalen's Cheat Sheet" at: http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/o/d/a/Donald-K-Odair/FILE/0056page.html As far as I can make out so far, Group C-2 members can only be identified as having Pictian descent in Scotland with connections to northern Ireland (but same group). The last four tests were a waste of money for me. All were negative. Positive outcomes on U106 would supposedly have identified "Frisian" roots; same for a positive outcome on *U106* or *S21*--R1b1c9--R1b1b2g--R1b1b2a1 - R1bSTR22Frisian –originally known as 'Frisian' Invader marker, new research suggests the majority are more generally Germanic-likely North/West European/Netherlands in origin with two 'hotspots' in the Netherlands and western Austria. The large British Isles pop. is likely Germanic invasion legacy-U106/S21 is estimated to be found in about 25% of European ancestry men of the R1b-M269 haplogroup. This makes it the most common subclade of R1b-M269. *U198* or *S29*--R1b1c9b--R1b1b2g1--R1b1b2a1a - R1bSTR3-branch of U106-- confined to S. England (pre-Anglo-Saxon?). Known as Frisian 2 in K. Nordtvedt research-unclear if it's a Saxon invasion marker or earlier Germanic migration. *U152* or *S28* --R1b1c10--R1b1d2h--R1b1b2a2g - branch of P312--Ancient Celts- Alpine Germany and Switzerland origins - possibly the 'La Tene culture" Celts, also possibly a pre-roman era 'Invasion' or 'immigration wave ' marker of the British Isles pop.--moderate numbers in Scotland, England, Wales, large number in Switzerland, Alpine Germany and Italy, also in Greece, France, Poland, Norway, Netherlands-also an Ashkenazi group in Eastern Europe with Sephardic/Converso members constituting a separate cluster--L2 appears to be a significant sub-clade downstream of U152/S28, and may split the group roughly 2/3rds L2+ and 1/3rd L2-. Unknown relationship to M126 and M160. Family Tree does the tests and then sends you the plus or minus results, but for some reason they don't say anything about what it means in terms of SUB haplogroup identification. I had to search google for "SPP U106" to find a discussion of what the results mean. Of course, they now want me to get tested for 3 new "cutting edge" SNPs: L11, P311, and P310. Until they can tell me more about what a positive result on these three new ones mean, I don't intend to get tested again. Someone else might learn more about their subgroups this way, but mine seem to keep coming back "negative," and "your still Pictian." So, the question is: Has anyone from Group A done these tests? And if so, in what SNP haplogroups do group A Kincaids belong? Don (Larry) Kincaid, Group C-2 P.S. This may all be a waste of money for me, but I find the whole business extremely interesting. I don think Family Tree should be giving us more information before asking us to get tested, however. On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Sue Liedtke <seleaml@actionnet.net> wrote: > Kelly, > When a mutation appears in only one individual within a set, we cannot > attach much meaning to it. It is only when others in the set start showing > up with that mutation that we can look for possible connections. There are > a > few markers that seem to have many parallel mutations, most notably the CDY > complex (markers 34 & 35). A mutation at these markers does not necessarily > mean a closer relationship to others who have the mutation but should be > kept in mind when looking for connections. Marker 30 is suppose to be a > site > that mutates more quickly than other sites though so far this doesn't show > up in the Kincaid project. > > There is one other Group A-1a Kincaid who has a 16 at marker 30 (DYS456). > The value of 18 for A-2b and 25710 are the only other incidence (besides > your line) of mutation at this marker in Group A. 25710 claims descent from > Joseph/ Eliz Gray Downing who was born in 1771. The family moved from KY to > Crawford Co. IN. Your Mathew Kincaid indicates in the 1850 census that he > was b 1807/8 in VA. I don't know whether Joseph's researcher knows when > Joseph or his family moved to KY or where he was born (Boone didn't lead > the > first settlers into KY until 1775) so it is possible that somewhere there > could be a connection. However, if your Mathew is proven to be the son of > Francis, son of Thomas/Hannah Tincher and Joseph can be vetted as ancestor > of 25710, it looks like the 2 mutations to 16 were parallel as the others > who have potential to Thomas/Hannah do not have that mutation. Still you do > have to keep the 25710's matching mutation in mind and should, along with > the researcher for 25710, eliminate any possibility of connection. > > Sue Liedtke > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <lewisjo@junct.com> > To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:04 PM > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] DNA Question > > > > Sue, > > Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that. I have another > > question: You said that group A-2b has a mutation @ marker 30, they have > > an 18, when the other groups,(A), have a 17. Since my father has a 16 at > > this marker, is that anything significant? > > Thanks again, > > Kelly > > > > > > > >> Peter, thank you for the explaination to the group. > >> To answer Kelly's question and explain how the chart is organized. > >> > >> Each Group in the chart have similar patterns of results within the > group > >> and they are very different from the patterns of results for any other > >> Group. Each of the members of a group are related to each other but are > >> not > >> related to members of other groups. Each Group has a single ancestor who > >> adopted the surname Kincaid or a variance thereof. The 2 most numerous > >> Groups in the Kincaid project are Group A and Group C-2. > >> > >> The Apparent Ancestral Values for Group A (top string) and Group C-2 > >> (bottom > >> string) for markers 1-12/13-25/26-37 are: > >> > 13.23.14.12.11.14.12.12.11.13.13.29/16.9.10.11.11.24.15.18.29.15.16.17.18/11.10.19.23.17.14.16.17.37.39.12.12 > >> > 13.25.14.10.11.14.12.12.12.13.13.30/17.9.10.11.11.25.15.19.30.15.15.17.17/11.11.19.24.16.15.18.17.36.36.13.12 > >> > >> If I have counted correctly there are 18 markers that do not match. Some > >> of > >> those that don't match vary by several steps. There are 19 markers that > >> are > >> the same which would indicate a common ancestor back in the ice age or > >> beyond. But for our purposes, these Groups are not genetically related. > >> > >> There are few variances from the Group AAV for C-2. Three members have a > >> 24 > >> at marker 2. Two of these descend from George/Elizabeth Dean. The 3rd > >> with > >> this mutation should look for a connection to this line. Because there > >> are > >> so few mutations, it is possible that the common ancestor for this Group > >> may > >> be found in historic times. > >> > >> Group A has a number of mutations which are shared by a others in the > >> Group. > >> The most significant mutation occurs at marker 15 in the second panel > >> (13-25), 3rd number. The AAV is a 10. One third of the project members > >> have > >> a 9 at this marker. Those with a 10 are in Group A set 1. Those with a 9 > >> are > >> in Group A set 2/4. > >> > >> Group A set 2/4 can be divided into subfamilies. > >> Set 2a does not as yet have a significant mutation from the set AAV. > >> > >> A-2b has a significant mutation at marker 30 in the 3rd panel (26-37), > >> 5th > >> number. This set has an 18 instead of the AAV 17. They should have a > >> common > >> ancestor closer in time than any one of them connect to someone who does > >> not > >> have the 18. > >> > >> A-4 has several mutations shared by all members of the set. They all > have > >> a > >> 14 instead of the AAV 15 at marker 19 (7th number in the 2nd panel) and > a > >> 36 > >> instead of 37 at marker 34 (4th from the end of the 3rd panel). > >> > >> Group A set 1 can be divided into a subfamily with no significant > >> variance > >> from the AAV for Group A (set 1a), a subfamily set 1b that has a 12 > >> instead > >> of an 11 at marker 26 (1st number in the 3rd panel) and a set which > >> contains > >> our biggest challange. A-1c has one common mutation that distinguishes > it > >> from A-1a. They all have an 11 instead of a 12 at marker 4 (4th number > in > >> the 1st panel). > >> > >> What makes this 11 such a challange is that an 11 at this marker pops up > >> in > >> every other Group A set and subset. If everyone could be vetted to their > >> claimed ancestor there would have been at least 6 times this marker > >> mutated > >> to an 11. Even if they could not be vetted either the mutation at marker > >> 4 > >> to an 11 occured several times or 4 other markers (15, 19, 26 and 30) > >> mutated twice. The odds that the latter happened are astromomical. The > >> value > >> of 12 at marker 4 is at the top of its range. Very few people have it. > >> From > >> our project data, it appears that the marker is very unstable at this > >> value > >> and drops a repetition often. > >> > >> In A-4 Peter has isolated the mutation to Daniel, son of his ancestor > >> David > >> as the line from another son of David does not have the mutation. > >> > >> In A-2a a line from one son of John, son of George, has the mutation. A > >> line > >> from another son of John does not. > >> > >> In A-1b 2 lines with probable common ancestor John/Elizabeth Logan have > >> the > >> mutation. No one else in the set does. Either the mutation to 12 at > >> marker > >> 26 would have had to occur in 2 individuals or the marker four 11 was > the > >> result of a separate event. > >> > >> In A-2b the same thing occurs. One individual has the mutation the rest > >> do > >> not. Again the mutation to18 at marker 30 would have had to occur twice > >> or > >> the marker 4 mutation to 11 was the result of a separate event. > >> > >> In A-1c an individual with the mutation claims with a great deal of > >> circumstantial evidence to the same ancestor as several individuals > >> without > >> the mutation in A-1a. > >> > >> If everyone in A-1c except the individual above, could be traced to a > >> single > >> common ancestor, that ancestor was not the same one as any of the above. > >> With so many mutations to the 11 on record, it is unclear if all in this > >> set > >> will find a common ancestor before connecting to someone without it. > >> > >> Sue Liedtke > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: <lewisjo@junct.com> > >> To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 7:02 PM > >> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] DNA Question > >> > >> > >>> Peter, > >>> Thank you so much for your detailed information. I'm sure others will > >>> find > >>> it as useful as I have. Besides grouping us together because we have > >>> similar DNA patterns, (including mutations), can't these markers tell > us > >>> something more in-depth about each of our particular groups, subgroups > >>> and > >>> the mutations that make us distance-1,2,3, etc.? I know that each > strand > >>> of DNA is for something, such as eye color, hair color, height, > >>> diseases, > >>> etc, so what do these markers tell, or do they even know that info? > >>> Since > >>> everyone in the project has such closely matched DNA, does that mean > >>> that > >>> everyone of us came from the same exact male ancestor, not one of our > >>> lines came from another man who decided to use the Kyncade as their > last > >>> name? That the mutations just tell us that we are related, but > different > >>> as to how many generations back? > >>> Am I trying to make it more difficult than it is? I'm sorry for all the > >>> questions, I would just like to have a good grasp of all the > information > >>> possible. And again, thank you so much for being patient with us > >>> "newbies". > >>> Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robt R Kincade #129770 > >>> > >>> > >>>> Hi Kelly, > >>>> > >>>> The following is something I put together a few years ago > >>>> for my DNA web page. Perhaps this will help with the > >>>> basics a bit. > >>>> > >>>> Everyone of us contain structures called chromosomes. These > chromosomes > >>>> usually come in pairs, one inherited from the mother and one from the > >>>> father, and humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes altogether. In 22 of > >>>> the > >>>> 23 pairs, the 2 chromosomes are very similar. However, the 23rd pair > is > >>>> made up of two possible combinations of 2 very different chromosomes, > >>>> the > >>>> X and the Y chromosomes. All of us have at least one X chromosome, > >>>> which > >>>> we have inherited from our mother. The second chromosome in this pair > >>>> is > >>>> always inherited from the father. If it is another X chomosome then > the > >>>> pair readily mixes and the embryo developes into a female. If the > >>>> second > >>>> chromosome inherited from the father is a Y chromosome then the embryo > >>>> developes into a male. Since a male's 23rd pair are disimilar (X & Y), > >>>> genetic material cannot readily exchange between them. The result is > >>>> that > >>>> the Y chromosome of every living man contains portions that directly > >>>> resembles that of his father, grandfather, great gra! > >>>> ndfather etc. and cousins of any degree who also have the same male > >>>> ancestor. > >>>> > >>>> The Y chromosone is about 60,000,000 base pairs long. One base on the > >>>> DNA > >>>> strand can be one of the following four nitrogen containing chemicals: > >>>> A > >>>> (adenine), T (thymine), C (cytosine) and G (guanine). There are two > >>>> strands in the DNA chain parallel to each other and connected. They > are > >>>> connected because Adenine (A) pairs with thymine (T) and cytosine (C) > >>>> pairs with guanine (G). Thus, if you have a A on one strand then its > >>>> opposite strand will have a T so they can join. > >>>> > >>>> When the DNA within the male Y chromosome is copied from generation to > >>>> generation, small mistakes are occasionally made. These mistakes give > >>>> rise > >>>> to differences between Y chromosomes of two individuals called > >>>> "polymorphisms". An person's combination of polymorphisms identifies a > >>>> unique sequence or "haplotype" with which to make comparisons to that > >>>> of > >>>> another individual. > >>>> > >>>> STRs (abbreviation for Short Tandem Repeats) are sections of DNA where > >>>> a > >>>> short pattern (2-5 bases) has been identified as repeating a certain > >>>> number of times in a row (in tandem). DYS391 is an identified STR with > >>>> the > >>>> 'GATA' pattern repeating at one specific location (repeating patterns > >>>> at > >>>> specific points are called markers). For many Kincaids in our project > >>>> it > >>>> has been determined that the DYS391 marker repeated 12 times. In that > >>>> section of the Y-DNA one strand of the DNA looks like: > >>>> > >>>> GATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATA. > >>>> > >>>> For other Kincaids in the project there was a mutation in one of the > >>>> GATA > >>>> pairs (ie. perhaps a G became a C) resulting in only 11 GATA repeats > >>>> being > >>>> counted for the same marker instead of 12 (ie. a mutation is when the > >>>> number of repeats increases or decreases by one or occasionally two or > >>>> more). Since we are dealing with more than one base pair (ie. one > >>>> letter) > >>>> then mutations can be observed frequently enough in STR markers to be > >>>> of > >>>> use for genealogy. > >>>> > >>>> Peter A. Kincaid > >>>> Fredericton, NB, Canada > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: lewisjo@junct.com > >>>> To: KINCAID@rootsweb.com > >>>> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:28 PM > >>>> Subject: [KINCAID] DNA Question > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Can anyone tell me what the markers mean? Each one has a value, but > >>>> what > >>>> is the orginal meaning of the marker, does it, in itself mean > >>>> anything > >>>> that we can understand? When you say "mutations", do you mean that > it > >>>> is > >>>> just a different value than the rest of the group has? Isn't there > >>>> anything significant about that particular mutation at that > >>>> particular > >>>> marker? > >>>> Kelly > >>>> > >>>> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > >>>> > >>>> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > >>> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > >> > >> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >