Except that the 17-May-1730 and 11-Jul-1731 baptisms she cites were not for a son John but for sons named Thomas. It wasThomas Kincaid who married Elizabeth Chiesly not John Kincaid. Just to be clear, even if a mother was a Kincaid when we do Y-DNA testing it is the father's DNA that is being passed on. There would be no Y-DNA trace of the mother in a participant today. Unfortunately, it is quite likely that the participant has a separate paternal lineage than the ancestor in question because they match no other Kincaid. Until a matching result is found for a participant in another branch of Thomas, one assumes that the participant's Y-DNA is not representative of the Kincaids of Dalderse or Grange or Candie. Legally the participant represents the line but genetic representation is another matter. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid &Elizabeth Chi... > WOW - this is a wonderful, thoughtful and scholarly piece of research. > Thank you for sharing this with the List. > > Ruth > > > In a message dated 12/10/2010 8:13:25 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Thank you Barbara > > Yes, I have looked at the 26-Jun-1730 marriage of John & Janet (OPR > 479/00 > 0080 0081 Falkirk reads James Kincaid son of Thomas in Dalderse to Janet > Simpson daughter of Ales Simpson in Kerse). > The birth record of their son John (OPR 470/00 0030 0525 Falkirk > 11-Jul-1731 > witness Alex Simpson and John Kincaid) > But ...... > On 24-Jun-1725 (OPR 479/00 0080 0040 Falkirk) a John Kincaid married a > Jean > Kincaid (in Grange son to John Kincaid in Candie to Jean Kincaid daughter > of > Thomas Kincaid in Dalderse. > The birth record of their son John (OPR 479/00 0030 0511 Falkirk > 17-May-1730 > witness John Kincaid and Tom Watts. > > Both John Kincaid's born 1730 and 1731 could well be the husband of > Elizabeth Chiesly (Their wedding OPR's do not show any parents names) - > Both possible fathers of John Kincaid gave their children similar names, > making research difficult. > Though it does look like the common link may be Thomas Kincaid (father of > James & Jean) from Dalderse. This would mean the DNA from Thomas in > Dalderse > could be from the Paternal line if John & Janet were parents or Maternal > if > John & Jean were. > > Then, if the parents of John kincaid born 1730/1731 were John and Jean, > that > means I'm looking at a line from John Kincaid in Candie ??? > I think this would then be a different Kincaid line to Gene from the > Kincaid > DNA database. > > Thinking logically, following Scottish tradition of naming the 1st born > male > child after the child's grandfather, consider John & Jean being the > parents, they had seven children, the first born son was Thomas, John's > father was named John. The second son was named Alexander, Jean's father > was named Thomas (clearly no tradition in this family) > James & Janet had 13 children and their eldest was named Thomas, James' > father was named Thomas, Janet's father was Alexander and she named her > 2nd > son Alexander. > > So to finding other possible DNA samples; > Thomas and Elizabeth had 3 other children besides John (daughter > Elizabeth > and son Thomas who died in infancy - so they are of no help) > Their son Alexander (1764-1854) married Jean Clark, they had 6 children > (1) > Thomas 1790-1794 (2) Marion 1792- ? (3) James 1794- 1855 Orchard Hill > married twice, Agnes White and Anne Henderson and only had daughters. (4) > Thomas (Captain Thomas Kincaid 1796-1884) married Anne Henderson, his > family > is well documented via his 2nd son's shipping business John G Kincaid & > Co > in Renfrewshire, and his other son's travels to Patagonia Buenos Aires. > Note, I have not been able to find any of this family line researching > their > family tree, and have had no contact with anyone who may be able to help > (can't really phone up from Australia and say "G'day , sorry to bother > you > but I think you are related to my son from way back in the 1700's and > would > you mind just submitting your DNA for me" ...... > (5) Alexander Kincaid born 1798, I had thought he married Elizabeth Smith > and that it was his son who became Major John Smith-Kincaid, but recent > communication with Eric Kincaid's family has now thrown a question about > this line with the possibility of 2 Alexander & Elizabeths. (6) John > (1801-1808). > > Interesting article at > http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/corporate_neighbourhood/housing/policies_ > and_strategies/PDFs/dawson/april_2006_newsletter.pdf > > The farmer occupying Dalderse Mill Farm in 1876 were the > Kincaid family and in 1810 it was Thomas McGregor and he > was succeed by Andrew Mackie who died in 1831. > The farmer at Dalderse Farm in 1871 was Robert Buchan > and his farmland appears to be the area that was the > grounds of Dalderse Mansion House, north and west of > Bainsford Burn. > In 1876, about halfway between Dalderse Farmhouse and > the Forth & Clyde Canal on Abbot's Road, a large house > Orchard Hall was built and it had quite large grounds. > The owners were Alex. Vernon Macall, Fleet Paymaster of > H.M. Navy, Southsea, his wife, Jane Clark Kincaid or Macall > and her sister, Margaret Kincaid. However by 1891, Margaret > Walker Forrester was apparently living at Orchard Hall. > > Note - Jane Clark Kincaid was the daughter of James Kincaid and Agnes > Wilson > born in 1846, her father died at Orchard Hill and she had a sister > Margaret. > Back to John Kincaid born 1730/1731, the common grandfather was Thomas > Kincaid of Dalderse to both possible sets of John's parents. > > All suggestions, comments etc gratefully received. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > On > Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, 11 December 2010 8:37 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 429 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's (Barbara Van Hout) > 2. Re: Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid and > Elizabeth Chielsy (Barbara Van Hout) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:29:11 -0500 > From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> > Subject: [KINCAID] Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > http://www.electricscotland.com/history/records/scottishrecordso31scotuoft.p > df > > There is a David Kincaid, wife Elizabeth or Isabel Cockburn, with a son > John > Kincaid in these records. Also mentioned are Cuthbert Kincaid, James > Kincaid, Sr. & Jr., Stephen Kincaid, and Edward Kincaid, Burgess of > Edinburgh. > > The list is on p. 113 of the above link to the ?Protocol Book of Gilbert > Grote, 1552-1573.? > > How were the Edinburgh Kincaids related to the James Kincaid family of > Campsie? > > > Barbara > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:36:40 -0500 > From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid > and Elizabeth Chielsy > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; > reply-type=original > > Sue, I agree with you that it would be good to get another sample from > this > Kincaid family of Falkirk. > > The Family Search website gives James Kincaid (son of Thomas) and Janet > Simson/Simpson (daughter of Alexander) as the parents of Thomas > Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly. Which Thomas was the possible father of > James/Janet who married > Aug. 7, 1730 in Falkirk, Sterling, Scotland according to church records. > > Barbara > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sue Liedtke > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 5:29 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas kincaidand > Elizabeth Chielsy > > I agree that the paper work is excellant. Lesley has worked very hard to > get > all her ducks in a row but I am still hesitent to mark the line as fully > vetted without a close match. The problem is not that this isn't a true > family line but that a vetted line says that the DNA profile is that of > the > given ancestor. That is a primary reason for vetting. In this case we > don't > know if this is Thomas's DNA profile or not. There may have been an > unrecorded non-Kincaid paternal event somewhere along the line. > > It is not just that Martyn doesn't match Gene. If he had matched anyone > in > any Group, even someone in the ungrouped section if it could be shown > that > the ancestral lines did not merge in recent times, then I would not a see > a > problem. > > All vetted lines have a near DNA match. We held off vetting #168724 until > a > confirming DNA sample could be tested. Many participants have had to find > someone for testing in order to isolate a mutation before they could be > vetted to a specific ancestor. > > I know that Lesley has struck out in trying to get a DNA sample from the > line of one of Charles' other sons. I am wondering if it is possible to > trace a line down from John? > > Sue Liedtke > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don W Kincaid" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:58 PM > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas > kincaidand > Elizabeth Chielsy > > > I believe Lesley has done an excellent job in documenting the lineage of > Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley. There are > not > many who are documented as well as this one. One of the other well > documented ones is for Gene Kincaid, #23547 who shows back to Falkirk > Parish > in Scotland like Martyn shows so I understand Sue's apprehension on > vetting > Martyn since his dna does not match with 23547. With the excellent > documentation for Martyn, I believe we should show him as vetted. One big > reason I believe we should vet Martyn is that there could easily be 2 > lines > of Kincaid's in Falkirk Parish just as we have found 2 different lines of > Kincaid's living next to each other in the Colonies in several instances. > If > we did not have another participant showing to Falkirk Parish, would > anyone > have an objection to Martyn's lineage being vetted? I doubt anyone would, > given the excellent documentation. If vetted, I would not object to > having > a > note stating that dna results have not confirmed Martyn's lineage to > Falkirk > or a similar statement. > > Don, # 1427 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sue Liedtke > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:40 PM > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas > kincaidand > Elizabeth Chielsy > > > This is the 2nd call for comments on the post seeking to vet #186057 to > Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly. I have asked that comments be directed to the > paper trail as a separate entity from the DNA as I have a question as to > the > advisability of vetting a line without a confirming DNA sample from the > furthest ancestor. > > Normally it takes 2 identical samples from the lines of different sons of > a > given ancestor to prove the DNA of that ancestor. In most cases we can > get > around this because we have identical DNA from other Kincaids whose > ancestors pre-date the given ancestor or could be descended from the same > ancestor by a different son. In cases where there is an unexpected > significant mutation, that mutation needs to be isolated before the line > can > be vetted. As an example:49289 has an unexpected mutation to 9 at marker > 15. > This is a significant mutation as it is used to separate A-2 Kincaids > from > A-1 Kincaids, however no other Kincaid (and there are many participants) > in > the immediate geographic region has this mutation. #49289 could not be > vetted until #135736 who does not have the mutation could be vetted to a > common ancestor (note other unvetted lines from this ancestor do not have > the mutation). > > In the case of #186057 we do not have identical DNA from anyone else in > the > project. While Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly may very well be represented by > #186057's DNA, there is also the possibility that an undisclosed > non-Kincaid > paternal event occurred somewhere along the line. This needs to be ruled > out > with confirming DNA. > > Non the less, it would be of immense value to know if the paper research > is > sound i.e if the DNA were confirmed could this line be vetted. This would > facilitate finding a participant from a different son's line to be tested > for confirming DNA. Please look over the paper trail and comment. > > Sue Liedtke > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lesley Cains" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:31 AM > Subject: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaid and > Elizabeth Chielsy > > > > Vetting Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley > Martyn Kincaid DNA kit #186057 > Researcher : Lesley Sharon Cains, mother of Martyn Stuart Kincaid and ex > wife of Alan John Kincaid > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > Martyn Stuart Kincaid 'Living' b.1987, Lilydale,Victoria Australia not > married. > > Proven by; > > Australian birth certificate (original available) for Martyn Stuart > Kincaid; > parents listed as Alan John Kincaid and Lesley Sharon Kincaid nee Cains. > > Personal knowledge; I know my son is the son of Alan John Kincaid. > ____________________________________________________________ > > Alan John Kincaid 'Living" b.1957 Carlton Victoria Australia m Lesley > Sharon > Cains in 1986 at Numurkah Victoria Australia (certificate available). > > Son of Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. > > Proven by; > > Australian birth certificate for Alan John Kincaid listing parents as > Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. > > Personal knowledge; I personally know the parents and siblings of Alan > John > Kincaid all of whom acknowledge him as the son of Bertram Langley > Kincaid. > > The parents and 3 of the 4 siblings of Alan John Kincaid are all still > living. > > The siblings of Alan John Kincaid are Robert Charles Kincaid, Karen > Eileen > Kincaid, Helen Jean Kincaid and Heather Kincaid (1963-1963). > _____________________________________________________________ > > Bertram Langley Kincaid 'Living' b.1930 Daylesford, Victoria Australia m > Dorothy Dawn Nash 16 October 1955 Camberwell Victoria Australia. > > Son of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters (both > deceased). > > Proven by; > > Australian birth certificate for Bertram Langley Kincaid listing his > parents > as Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters, as confirmed by > Bertram Langley Kincaid who resides in Victoria Australia. > > Australian death certificate's (copies available) for Arthur Charles > Nelson > Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid (nee Waters) listing Bertram Langley > Kincaid > as their son, and also Bertram's siblings John (dec'd), Eileen (dec'd), > Valma and Arthur David. > > Australian Electoral Roll records 1954 showing Bertram Langley Kincaid > living at the home of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita > Kincaid > with his siblings Arthur and John. > > Springvale Victoria Australia crematorium records for Arthur Charles > Nelson > Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid. Website look up; > > http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php?page=search&s_res=GO&cid=330&Given_N > ames=&Surname=kincaid&Surname_ex=&hw_num=100 > > Personal knowledge; I personally knew both parents of Bertram Langley > Kincaid and attended their funeral services. > I personally knew both Valma Jean Kincaid and Arthur David Kincaid (both > now > deceased) siblings of Bertram Langley Kincaid. > The family also told me of Eileen Hilda Kincaid, sister of Bertram > Langley > Kincaid who married William St Dennis and migrated to the United States, > her > social security death index ssn 037-20-3410 Rhode Island date of death > August 1976, and California passenger & Crew list showing Eileen St Denis > & > William St Denis arriving in California 12 Sep 1946, with Eileen on an > Australian passport with notation of her maiden name confirms what the > family have related to me. > Alan John Kincaid also told of Bertram's deceased brother John Charles > Kincaid who died alone following an accident in his home in 1978 as > proven > by his obituary and Springvale Crematorium records. > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid b. 7 January 1902 Daylesford Victoria > Australia m Sarah Rita Waters 24 March 1922 Mildura Victoria Australia > (certificate available). > > Son of Charles Langley Kincaid and Elizabeth Nelson. > > Proven by; > > Australian birth record #2384 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson > Kincaid DOB as 7 January 1902 listing his parents as Charles Kincaid (a > Miner aged 42) and Elizabeth Kincaid, formerly Nelson (aged 42) living at > Eganstown Victoria, who were married 13 April 1891. Siblings shown on the > certificate are Grace Cowling Kincaid, Alice Kincaid, Eliza Kincaid, > Clarice > Kincaid and Helena Kincaid (dec'd). > > Australian marriage record #558 (copy available) for Arthur Charles > Nelson > Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters married on 24 March 1922 at St Margaret's > Vicarage Mildura, listing Arthur's father as Charles Langley Kincaid, a > Miner as his father and Elizabeth Nelson as his mother. > > Australian death record #12575/83 (copy available) for Arthur Charles > Nelson > Kincaid date of death 6 June 1983 at Heatherton Victoria Australia, > retired > aged 81 years and born in Daylesford Victoria. Fathers name showing as > Charles Kincaid and mother as Elizabeth Kincaid (maiden name Nelson), > certified by his wife Sarah (known as Rita) Kincaid. This certificate > also > shows Arthur was 20 years old when he married Sarah Rita Waters in > Mildura > and that he was still married at the time of his death, children listed > as > Arthur aged 61 yrs, Valma aged 59 yrs, Eileen (deceased), John > (deceased), > Bertram aged 53 years. > > Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1924, 1931, 1936, 1937 and 1949 > detailing his address and family members (available to view on > Ancestry.com). > > An on-line Australian newspaper Archive record detailing the death of his > sister Clarice Leona Kincaid and recording that her body was identified > by > her brother Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid reads; "Found dead in the bush, > died from exposure, exhaustion and natural causes (refer to inquest & > newpaper articles), VPRS 24/P Unit 1031 File 92 Clarice Leona Kincaid > died > on or about 28 Dec 1922 from exhaustion during the first stages of > labour. > Body identified by brother - Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid (stonemason) > residing at Victoria park Daylesford. Arthur Angove aged 16 from > Daylesord > was one of those that found her along with Frank Stevens and James > Langdon > who were bird nesting on Angus Hill, on the Cornish Reef". (ref; > > http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1871036?searchTerm=clarice+kinc > aid). > > Springvale Victoria Crematorium records showing that he was cremated 8 > June > 1983. > > Personal knowledge; I personally knew Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and > visited his home with Alan John Kincaid, I also attended his funeral > service. I identified the address' given in the Australian Electoral > Roll's > from my visits to his home, and the earlier address' from when I took > Sarah > Rita Kincaid back To Daylesford and she showed me her old home. Sarah > Rita > Kincaid also took me to her own parents' grave, explaining that Arthur > Charles Nelson Kincaid was a stonemason by trade and made her parents > tombstone and many others in the Kyneton & Daylesford area. Sarah told > me > they had named their son Bertram Langley Kincaid after Arthur's father > Charles Langley Kincaid. > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Charles Langley Kincaid b.21 Apr 1859 Mt Egerton Victoria Australia m > Elizabeth Nelson 30 April 1891 Daylesford Victoria (certificate > available). > > Son of Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Rae. > > Proven by; > > Australian birth record #154 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid > DOB as 21 April 1859 at Mount Egerton Victoria, details show father as > Thomas William Kincaid a Miner in aged 36 years and born Cape of Good > Hope, > marriage details on this record for Thomas William Kincaid given as "1845 > Stepney London", other children "Thomas Kincaid and Alconda Degney > Kincaid". > Mother as Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae, aged 31 years from Waterford > Ireland > and signed by Thomas William Kincaid, father. > > Australian marriage record #4032 (copy available) for Charles Langley > Kincaid and Eliza Nelson 30 April 1891 at the Bible Christian parsonage > Daylesford. This record details Charles aged as 32 years as son of Thomas > William Kincaid a Miner, and Elizabeth Rae. > > Australian death record #1813 (copy available) for Charles Langley > Kincaid, > a Miner died 28 May 1931 at the District Hospital Daylesford aged 72 > years, > his parents are given as Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Kincaid > formerly Rae. It shows Charles was buried on 30 May 1931 at Daylesford > cemetery and that he was born in Eganstown and had lived in Victoria his > whole life. His children are listed as Grace 39 years, Alice 38 years, > Myrtle 35 years, Clarice (deceased) and Arthur 29 years. > > Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1914, 1924 and 1928 detailing > his > address and family members. > > Obituary; (1) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Friday, May 29, 1931 FUNERAL > NOTICE > KINCAID -The friends of the late Mr. Charles Langley Kincaid are > respectfully informed that his remains will be interred in the Dayiesford > Cemetery TOMORROW (Saturday) May 30. The Funeral is appointed to leave > the > mortuary parlour of R. F. Verey at 1.30 pm. R. F. Verey, Funeral > Director. > Phone 245. (2) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Tuesday 2 June, 1931 OBITUARY > CHARLES > LANGLEY KINCAID The death occurred on Thursday morning last, of Mr > Charles > Langley Kincaid, after a long illness, at the age of 72 years. The late > Mr. > Kincaid was born in Eganstown district, and had resided in this locality > all > his life. For many years he was connected to the mining industry. Mrs. > Kincaid and an adult family of three daughters and one son survive to > mourn > their loss, one daughter having predeceased Mr. Kincaid some years ago. > The > funeral took place on Saturday afternoon, and was largely attended. The > casket was carried by Messrs. M. Dickson, W. Spear, W. Burnett > (sons-in-law), C. Nelson (nephew), A. Dickson and J. Dickson. Rev. S. D. > Yarrington conducted the service at the graveside, and the funeral > arrangements were in the hands of Mr. R. F. Verey. > > Grave; Grave C of E 4 C 6 In loving memory of Charles Langley Kincaid, > Elizabeth Kincaid, and Grace Cowling Dickson died 18 Feb, 1982. > > The personal knowledge of his grandson Bertram Langley Kincaid, who has > confirmed the above for me. > ______________________________________________________________ > > Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m > (i) > Elizabeth Catherine Barrett on 18 May 1845 Stepney London (certificate > available). Elizabeth Catherine Barratt died 13 March 1850. This marriage > produced one child, Thomas Hardie Kincaid b. 16 February 1849 > (certificate > available) Rotherhithe England and died 3 February 1929 at Rotherhithe > London UK. > > Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m > (ii) Eliza Rae on 16 Nov 1850 Victoria Australia > > Son of Charles Kincaid and Hillegonda Sophia Row. > > Proven by; > > Beaufort West, South Africa Baptism register on microfilm number 5-39, > "Child Thomas William born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823. > Parents > Charles Kincaid, Hilegonda [sic] Sophia Roow [sic]. Witnesses Joseph > Cleaver, Susanna Frederica Roow [sic], Willem Roow[sic], Anna Roow[sic]". > (photograph of document ordered from GISA and available November 2010). > > Beaufort West South Africa Baptism record, born 2 August 1823, baptised > 17 > August 1823 as per the SA Genealogies by Lombard & Hesse, page 277 (this > record purchased from GISA, Genealogy Institute of South Africa) and > also > provided by contact with Joy Roy (a descendant of Thomas William Kincaid > and professional researcher), Heather McAllister and Tessa King > (Administrators for Ancestry24.com). > > Details taken from the - UK Marriage record for Thomas William Kincaid > (of > full age, a Mariner Chief Officer - son of Charles Kincaid, a sadler) to > Elizabeth Catherine Barratt (with consent of parents) on 18 May 1845 at > St > Thomas' Church Stepney UK, witnessed by William Brown & Sophia Barratt > (copy > available). > > Taken from the - UK Birth record (copy available) of Thomas Hardie > Kincaid > 16 February 1849, father given as Thomas William Kincaid (Master Mariner) > mother as Elizabeth Catherine Kincaid formerly Barratt. > > Taken from the - Australian Death record #14665 (copy on available) 14 > December 1903 at Leonards Hill Victoria Australia, Thomas William Kincaid > aged 80 years. His father was recorded as John Kincaid, profession > unknown, > information on this record was detailed as being provided by his son John > Rae Kincaid. He was buried on 16 December 1903 at Eganstown Public > cemetery, > and shows he had lived 50 years in Victoria. Place of birth given as Cape > Town, Cape Colony South Africa, married to Eliza Rae (not living). The > children of Thomas William Kincaid are listed as Charles 44 years, Janet > 42 > years, John 40 years, Margaret 38 years, Annie 36 years, Isabella 34 > years, > Eliza 32 years, Thomas William 30 years and Alconda (deceased). > > The Australian birth records (copies available) for the Children of > Thomas > William Kincaid & Eliza Rae for Charles Langley 1859, John Rae 1863, > Annie > Eliza 1868, Elizabeth 1873, Thomas William 1875 all detailing the father > and > his place of birth as The cape of Good Hope. > > The birth certificate's for Thomas William Kincaid's children; John Rae > Kincaid in 1863 details Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae married in > Melbourne 1851. On Annie Eliza's record it details 'Melbourne', on > Elizabeth's as 16 November 1850 and on Thomas' 1875 birth record as 26 > November 1850. > > Australian death record (copy available) for daughter Alconda Kincaid > aged > 14 years 27 May 1870 in Eganstown details her parents as Thomas William > Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid, and that Alconda was born in Newstead, > Melbourne > Victoria Australia. > > The Australian marriage certificate for daughter Janet Hardie Kincaid > (copy > available) 25 October 1887 shows her parents as Thomas William Kincaid > and > Eliza Kincaid nee Rae, on her death record in 1933 (copy available) her > parents were given as John Kincaid (a Miner) and Eliza Kincaid formerly > Rae > as provided by S Brown, authorised agent > > When youngest son Thomas William Kincaid died in 1959 at aged 84 his > parents > were listed as unknown. > > Australian 1903 Electoral Roll showing Thomas William Kincaid living at > Leonards Hill Victoria, occupation Miner. > Australian Rate Books - Mt Franklin Victoria from 1872 - 1902 > > Australian Newspaper Archive - Daylesford Advocate Thursday 17 December > 1903 > - The late Mr Kincaid; The remains of Mr T W Kincaid were interred in the > Eganstown Public Cemetery yesterday. The funeral started from his late > residence at Leonard's Hill and comprised of mourners in eight > conveyances > and seven horsemen. The bearers were Messers Kramer, Aldridge, McKidrew > (2), > Ladigus and Blackwell, Mr Taylor read the burial service. Messer's Verey > Bros had charge of the mortuary arrangements. > _____________________________________________________ > > Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (i) Hillegonda Sophia Row on 3 August 1818 > Cape of Good Hope (Hillegonda born 1800, died 4 February 1831). > > Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (ii) Christina Johanna Marian Sporkman, > widow > of John Herbert 12 October 1846 Cape of Good Hope (copy available). > > Son of John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff > > Proven by; > > Scottish OPR record 487/0010 0356 (copy on available) detailing "John > Kincaid and Margaret Gaff, their son named Charles was born 3 May 1791 > and > baptised 8 May, witness' Thomas Kincaid and John Gibb". > > Website - Old Polmont Church (note - please note that not all details on > this website are accurate eg Sir John Kincaid given as never married, he > in > fact married Louisa Frisbee a month before his death). refer > www.polmontold.org.uk/hist1845part06.html > >>From the list of passengers arriving in South Africa on board the Ship > 'The > Brilliant' in 1817, Charles Kincaid was part of a group of Scottish > Artisans > organised by Benjamin Moodie. > >>From the Book - British Residents at the Cape 1795-1819, by David Phillip > page 222, in part reads - "Kincaid, Charles, saddler single arrived 4 > June > 1817 Table Bay, in Brilliant ex Downs under Moodies direction. 2 August > 1817 > has commenced business (saddle, cap and harness maker). 3 August 1818 > marriage of CK of Falkirk, Stirling aged 27 to Hillegonda Sophia d,o, > Robt. > Row aged 18. 6 June 1819 baptised their son John Robert. 18 March 1821 > baptised of their son Charles Langley". > >>From the National Archives of South Africa - in 1818 'memorials received, > Charles Kincaid requesting permission to remain in the Colony. > >>From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid aged 27, > birthplace Falkirk Stirling married at The English Church to Hillegonda > Sophia Row aged 18 born at The Cape on 3 August 1818 as published in The > Capetown Gazette. > > Marriage certificate (copy available) Charles Kincaid (widower, > occupation > Sadler) married in Paarl South Africa to Christina Johanna Maria Sporkman > (widow). > > Death certificate #2505 (copy available) Charles Kincaid born in > Scotland, > married died on 5 March 1866. Lists the children of his 2nds wife's > previous marriage and John Robert Kincaid as son with Hillegonda Sophia. > >>From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid will filed > 1866. > >>From the South African Commercial Advisor - (1) 1826, a daughter of Mr C > Kincaid baptised Jessy, (2) 1829 a son of Mr Charles Kincaid baptised > Alexander Row, (3) 1831 February 4, Sophia Kincaid wife of Mr C Kincaid > died > aged 30 years and 6 months. > > Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill > Kincaid" > > Reference; pamphlet obtained in full from The National Archives of South > Africa "The Kincaid Family in South Africa" by JJ Scheepers and confirmed > by > Leonard Kincaid who resides in South Africa son of Joy Scheepers & Donald > Kincaid descendants of John Robert Kincaid b.1819 at the Cape of Good > Hope. > > _________________________________________________________________ > > John Kincaid b.10 June 1762 Polmont Stirlingshire Scotland m Margaret > Gaff > (marriage on OPR's shows 20 Nov 1784 Bothkennar & 16 Dec 1784 as the > Proclamation Polmont for both parties) > > Son of Thomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chiesly (Cheesley) > > Proven by; > > Scottish OPR Baptism record 487/0010 0084 13 June 1762, "Thomas Kincaid & > Elizabeth Chiesly their son named John was born 10 June and baptised 13 > June, witness' Alexander and Robert Kincaid and John Clark". (Copy > Available) > > Scottish OPR marriage record 473/000010/0260 20th November 1784 marriage > bans, naming John Kincaid if Dalbeath. "(copy available). > > Falkirk Churchyard Grave 184, John Kincaid death 11 February 1794 aged 33 > years. > > Reference; book - Mitchell, John Fowler. Monumental inscriptions (pre > 1855) > in East Stirlingshire. Edinburgh: Scottish Genealogy Society, 1972]. > "John Kincaid, 1st son of Thos Kincaid & Eliz Chislie, age 33, at > Carronflats on 11 February 1794; John's wife, Margt Gaff, age 85, on 5 > February 1844; John's 1st son, Thos Kincaid, age 63, at Glasgow on 31 > December 1848; John's youngest son, Alex Kincaid, age 17, having drowned > by > shipwreck on coast of Durham on 27 January 1806; John's 2nd son, John > Kincaid, 76, at Hastings on 23 April 1862, (having entered the army in > 1809 > & served throughout the Peninsular war with Rifle Brigade, knighted 1852, > senior exon of HM Royal Bodyguard & for many years government inspector > of > prisons & factories for Scotland); John's (Margt Gaff) only daughter, > Margt > Kincaid, age 71, widow of the late Peter Hardie, merchant in Leith, on 6 > October 1863; and John's 3rd son, Charles Kincaid, age 73, at Pearl Cape > of > Good Hope on 5 March 1866" (Note - Information provided by both Peter A > Kincaid, Canada and also Ann Taylor, nee Kincaid England UK and confirmed > verbally that this Book available from the National Library of Australia, > Canberra Australia, copies of relevant extracts pending). > > Reference; made available courtesy of Peter A Kincaid, Canada. > "John Kincaid, son of Thomas Kincaid, farmer, Newlands, as heir to > Alexander > Chiesly, Tenant, Newlands, his grandfather, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in > part > of Bothkennar called Dalbeith, with Ferry Boat & fishing in Carron, & > Teinds, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Chan. Oct. 7. 1788. P.R. 30. 184. > [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1394. > Registered > 20 October 1788]". > "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, as heir to Elizabeth Chiesly, his mother, > seised, > Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, > and > Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Cl. Con. by himself, Oct. 18. > 1788. P.R. 30.185. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. > 1, > no. 1395. Registered 20 October 1788]". > "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, gets Resig. ad Rem. Oct. 18. 1788, -of part of > Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, & Fishing in Carron, par. > Bothkennar; -on Proc. resig. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30. 186. > [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1396. > Registered > 20 October 1788]". > "The Trustees of John Kincaid of Dalbaith, seised, Mar. 22. 1800, -in an > Oxengate of land of Bothkennar called Dalbaith with the Ferry Boat and > part > of the fishing of the Water of Carron, and Teinds; (&2 Oxengates of land > of > the lands of Bothkennar in warrandice), par. Bothkennar; -under burden of > ?50 each to John, Alexander, and Charles Kincaid, and 500 Merks Scots to > Margaret Kincaid, younger children of the said John Kincaid, &c; -on > Disp. > & > Settlement by the said John Kincaid, & Margaret Gaff, his spouse, Sept. > 6. > 1793. P.R. 36.35. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, > no. > 3904. Registered 20 May 1800]". > > Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill > Kincaid" > > Reference; Book - "Adventures of The Rifle Brigade" by sibling Sir John > Kincaid detailing his family, father John Kincaid. > ___________________________________________________________________ > > Thomas Kincaid b. circa 1731 Falkirk Scotland m Elizabeth Chiesly 12 July > 1761. > > Son of (unknown - possible either of James Kincaid & Janet Simson, or > John > Kincaid & Jean Kincaid) > > Proven by; > > Marriage record - Scottish OPR Marriage Ban 479/00008 00237 10 July 1761 > Falkirk, and Scottish OPR Marriage proclamation Polmont 487/00002 0016 > (copies available) this record names Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chielsy > but > neither of their parents. > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Other resources used; > Ancestry.com record search for BDM records, Census returns, travel > records, > Australian Electoral Rolls. > Ancestry24.com for South African research re BDM's, Wills and application > to > remain in the Colony. > Ancestry.Co.ZA to view & purchase South African death records. > Scotslands People (www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) record search for OPR > records > re BDM's, Census & Wills. > GISA (Genealogical Institute of South Africa) for South African family > history records. > NAAIRS for South African records re BDM's, Wills and application to > remain > in the Colony etc. > Book - British Residents at The Cape 1795-1819 by David Phillip. > On-Line Book - Extracts of Marriages at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821. > On-Line Book - Extracts of Baptisms at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821 > 192.com for UK contacts. > Springvale Crematorium Records for confirming Australian deaths. > The Australian National Archives. > The Australian National Library. > The Victorian Government Public Records Office. > The Victorian Registry of Birth, Deaths & Marriages. > The Daylesford Family History Society. > The Australian WW2 Nominal Roll. > The Kincaid family living in Australia. > Trove - Australian newspapers on line. > London newspaper archives on line. > Edinburgh newspaper archives on line. > The Genealogical Society of South Africa historical newspapers on line. > Google. > > Note - Australia does not have census returns as these are not archived > after the government has collated the data it requires. > > __________________________________________________________________________ > > Footnote's - > > John Kincaid & Margaret Gaff had 5 children; > Son Thomas, a Merchant baptised 30 October 1785, died 31 December 1848. > Married Isabella Balloch 17 January 1818 and produced 5 sons and 5 > daughters > per the OPR records. OPR & BDM records show that 4 of the sons died > without > marrying, and John living in Lancashire unmarried aged 60 yrs in 1881. > Son John Kincaid baptised 29 July 1787, died 23 April 1862. Married > Louisa > Frisbee 19 March 1862, no children. > Son Alexander christened 7 June 1789, died in a shipwreck 27 January > 1806. > Never married, no children. > Son Charles as detailed above in vetting. > Daughter Margaret christened 22 July 1795, died 6 October 1863. Married > Peter Hardie 8 March 1811 and produced 4 sons and 1 daughter. Both her > son's Thomas Kincaid Hardie and John Hardie travelled to Australia in > search > of gold. Thomas married Janet Hoyle in Victoria 1848, returning to the UK > to > 'live off his own means' as a 'retired Australian Squatter'. John > married > Elizabeth Hoyle in Victoria Australia 1841, this couple also returned to > the > UK. > > Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisly's son Alexander b.1764 married Jean > Clark. This couple had 6 children, their son Thomas b.1796 was 'Captain > Thomas Kincaid - Shipmaster' who married Ann Henderson. > Two of Thomas & Ann's sons died overseas - Alexander b.1839 died 1892 in > Buenos Ayres and James b.1903 died in 1903 Patagonia Argentina. Their > 2nd > eldest of their son's , John George Kincaid born in 1840 founded J G > Kincaid Shipping in Inverclyde. John G Kincaid married Margaret > Grierson, > their eldest son Thomas Lennox Kincaid b.1877 travelled to Australia > settling in NSW. He married there in 1936 and died in December 1940, > (His > death certificate is available). His wife's son by her 1st marriage, > Hilton > Grenville Marcuso who had links to the notorious Kings Cross criminal > underworld, took the Kincaid surname, and died in NSW Australia in 1975. > > Hillegonda Sophia Row, wife of Charles Kincaid - was born at The Cape of > Good Hope in 1800 and dies at aged 31 on 4 February 1831 as listed in the > South African Commercial Adviser. > Hillegonda was the daughter of Englishman Robert Row and Helena Wilhelma > Aspeling. Helena & Robert married at The Cape on 14 April 1800, she was > the > widow of Lambrecht Van der Woord and had two children by him (Johanna > Louise > and Jan Christian). > Helena and Robert had 3 other children; > Susannah Frederika Row 1802 - 1831. Susannah married Joseph Cleaver > (soap > manufacturer) in 1823 at Beaufort West and this couple were witness' to > the > marriage of Hillegonda & Charles Kincaid's son Thomas William Kincaid's > baptism at the Dutch Reformed Church in Beaufort West August 1823. They > had > one child, a daughter Ann born in 1824 and died in 1825. Joseph Cleaver > died in 1824. > Johanna Margaretha Row 1802-1848. Johanna married Samuel Mollett in > 1834. > Robert James Row 1809-1839. > Hillegonda's mother was Hillegonda Kotze also born at The Cape of Good > Hope > as was her mother before her. It was Hillegonda Rows Gr Gr grandparents > that > came to The Cape from Germany and The Nederland's, and her grandfather > Erik > Aspeling from Sweden. > > Charles Kincaid & Hillegonda Row's 1st born son was John Robert Kincaid > born > 1819. He married Frances Dorothea Fison 10th July 1846, and this couple > had > six children; > Charles John Kincaid 5 Jan 1848 > Thomas Henrik Herbert Kincaid 20 Apr 1851 - 29 June 1923 (married Sarah > Maria Holmes, and had six children, see below) > Dorothea Christina Kincaid 11 Mar 1853 married Richard Walton > Alexander Frederick Kincaid 10 Apr 1855 > Ellen Elizabeth Kincaid 18 Jan 1857 > Elizabeth Harriette Kincaid 21 Mar 1860 > > Thomas Hendrik Herbert and Sarah Maria Holmes went on to have six > children; > Gertrude Frances Kincaid 16 Jul 1884 > Percy Frederick Kincaid 11 Nov 1886 - 22 May 1967 married (1) Alice Maud > Poggenpoel, 2 children John b 15 May 1926 and Maud b 28 Sep 1914 (2) Iris > Alexandria Morkel, one son Charles Morkel Kincaid b 22 Dec 1932. (Charles > married Maria VanSchalkwyk and had 2 sons, John 15 Jan 1963 and Paul in > 1965. > Leonard Thomas Kincaid 25 Jan 1888 - 1965, married Charlotte Augusta > Gerhardt. This couple had 3 children; Gwendoline 28 Sep 1916 - 1956, > Roland > Kincaid b.1920 and Donald Kincaid 16 Aug 1929. Donald married Joy > Scheepers > and they had 3 children; Leonard, Gary & Mark Kincaid. > Mildred Constance Kincaid 10 Aug 1891 > Charles Henry Kincaid 24 Sep 1894, married Enid Audrey Holmes (Enid was > born > in Rockhampton Qld 4 May 1901) > Gwendoline Jessie Holmes Kincaid 31 Oct 1897. > > The information re John Robert Kincaid and his descendants became > available > from a NAAIRS document 'The Kincaid family in South Africa' and a list of > Kincaid births and marriages purchased from GISA. Leonard Kincaid (son > of > Donald and Joy - see 3 above) who still resides in South Africa, has > confirmed all of the above for me also advising he has 2 sons, Mark > Douglas > Kincaid and Luke Richard Kincaid who also reside in South Africa. > > Thomas Hardie Kincaid born 16 Feb 1849 to Thomas William Kincaid and > Elizabeth Catherine Barrett in Stepney, Ratcliff County of Middlesex. His > death certificate shows he died on 3 Feb 1829 in Rotherhithe, County of > London as witnessed by his daughter Julia Charlotte Howes, nee Kincaid. > > I am unsure who actually raised Thomas Hardie Kincaid after his mother > died > in 1850 and his father Thomas William Kincaid left the UK to continue > his > travels and ultimately end up in Australia. Thomas Hardie Kincaid is > mentioned on only one of his ? siblings Australian birth records, and was > not listed on his father's Australian death certificate. > > Thomas Hardie married Sarah Ann Drake in 1867, and after her death > married > Elizabeth Abel in 1898. Thomas and Sarah had five children; > Julia Charlotte Kincaid 1868-1934 > William Henry Brooks Kincaid 1870-1943 > Sarah Catherine Kincaid 1873-1911 > Eliza Elizabeth Kincaid 1878- > Annie Brooks Kincaid 1883-1883 > Thomas William Brooks Kincaid 1885 - (date of death unconfirmed). Thomas > married Alice May Springall and this couple had 6 children, the youngest > being Eric David Hardie Kincaid (children's illustrator and Artist. Eric > also did the artwork for Bill Kincaid in his book, This I'll Defend - The > Story of the Kincaids). These details have been confirmed with Eric's > daughter Ann Taylor (nee Kincaid) and his son David Kincaid in the UK. > > (Further details available if required). > > Thankyou > > > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xlsTo > join the DNA project, go > to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027---------- > ---------------------To > unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotesin the subject and the body of the message > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xlsTo > join the DNA project, go > to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027---------- > ---------------------To > unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotesin the subject and the body of the message > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the KINCAID list administrator, send an email to > [email protected] > > To post a message to the KINCAID mailing list, send an email to > [email protected] > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the > body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 429 > *************************************** > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and > the body of the message > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message