Where did you find that William/Ann was son of a John? The naming pattern for the children would suggest that William/Ann Elliot was the son of (or at least raised by) an Andrew/Mary. Perhaps the same Andrew who fathered John/Alice Dean and James/Elizabeth Dean. In order for Wilfred to be vetted to William/Ann something needs to be obtained showing that William/Martha Estill is the William refered to. This last bit of proof might be in the Missouri probate file of either James or Ann. Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 6:58 AM Subject: [KINCAID] Kincaids in Brazil > Wilfred Kincaid is DNA # 59442 Group A, set 1a, vetted to William > Kincaid/Martha Estill. It was recently shown by deeds that William/Martha > was a son of William/Ann of Virginia, who was a son of John. > > See what Sue wrote here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/kincaid/2010-03/1267747723 > >>From the book "Abstracts of the Wills and Inventories of Bath County, > Virginia, 1791-1842" by Jean Randolph Bruns: > P. 96 > > BATH COUNTY, VA WILL BOOK 2 > p. 265 > Power of attorney from Archibald Kincaid of Madison County, Alabama > Territory, to James Kincaid to convey his interest in land belonging to > the > heirs of William Kincaid, Nov. 10, 1818. Wit: Samuel Given Jr., executed > in > Alabama Territory. > > p. 267 > Power of attorney by William Kincaid of Madison Co., Alabama Territory, to > Ann Kincaid for the same purpose as above. > > > > "I had an uncle who was a lawyer in Brazil, but I thought none of his > family > remained there after his death. But of course his law firm could have > retained the name." > > Wilfred Kincaid > > > Barbara > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lesley Cains > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 2:44 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 439 > > Thanks everyone > Yes, Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chislie had 4 children; > > John Kincaid who married Margaret Gaff (as detailed in my vetting post) > Thomas Kincaid baptised 13-Apr-1766 and died in 1767. > Elizabeth Kincaid baptised 15-Nov-1767 (IGI has a marriage to a James > Hardie, but there are no OPR's) > > And; > Alexander Kincaid christened 15-May-1764 and died 17-Feb-1854. > He married Jean Clark and had six children (Thomas, John, Marion, James, > Alexander and Thomas); > > Thomas Kincaid 1790-1794 = died in childhood so N/A for DNA > > John Kincaid 1801-1808 = died in childhood so N/A for DNA > > Marion Kincaid 1792 - ?? = Female so N/A for DNA > > James Kincaid b.09-Apr-1794, died 7-Jul-1855 at orchid Hill, he married > 1st > to Janet Hill 18-Apr-1842, Janet died 1-Jul-1842 (no children), then James > married in June 1843 to Agnes Wilson and they had 4 daughters (Agnes Cook > Kincaid, Jane Clarke Kincaid, Margaret Kincaid and Mary Kincaid) = all > Female so N/A for DNA. > > Alexander Kincaid b.17-Jul-1798, there is an OPR marriage to Elizabeth > Smith > in Polmont 30-Jan-1813, unfortunately there are no parents mentioned on > this > OPR, and with the prolific naming of Alexander, I'm hesitant to say > categorically this is the one. However, this couple did produce nine > children (Alexander, Margaret, twins Janet & Elizabeth, Agnes, Jean, > James, > Janet with youngest child John born 1826 possibly being Major John > Kincaid-Smith). I purchased the will of an Alexander Kincaid who died in > 1849 stating he was widow of Elizabeth Smith and a farmer of Bowhouse > Parish > of Polmont. This document does not match up regarding all of his > children's > names, it mentions his sons Alexander & John only - could be son James was > dead or out of favour ? and only mentioning daughters Margaret, Elizabeth, > Jane (one could presume Jane to be Jean ) & Jessie ?? From the book - > Stirlingshire Monumental inscriptions, it appears there were three tablets > positioned together (implying close members of a family unit ?) written as > chn are Janet, Agnes & Jas near Alexander & Elizabeth Kincaid. I'm still > following up on this one. > > And, Thomas "Captain' Kincaid b.26-Sep-1796 and died 18-Mar-1884 who > married Ann Henderson on 2-Jul-1838 did produce 10 children; > Alexander Kincaid 1839-1892 > John George Kincaid 1840-1924 > Janet Kincaid 1842- ? > Ann Jane Kincaid 1849- ? > Marion Kincaid 1845-1930 > James Kincaid 1847-1903 > Elizabeth Kincaid 1848- ? > Charles Stewart Kincaid 1851-1924 > William Clark Kincaid 1854-1908 > > So considering these six sons of Captain Thomas Kincaid & Ann Henderson; > > 1) Alexander b.30-May-1839, d.29-Jul-1892 238 Calle Son Martin, Buenos > Ayres, I can find no marriage or children for him. > http://www.argbrit.org/Saudades/Saudades.htm > > 2) John George Kincaid, founder of John G Kincaid & Co, b.3-Oct-1840 and > died 26-Apr-1924 married Margaret Grierson 8-Sep-1875. > Probate confirmed by son's James Scott, Randal Grierson & Henderson > Kincaid > > This couple had six sons = > > i) Thomas Lennox Kincaid b.1877 and died in Randwick NSW Australia 1940 (I > have his death certificate which records his 2 marriages in Australia and > that there were no children - the man who called himself Hilton Granville > Kincaid was actually the son of his 2nd wife, who changed his surname from > Marcosso to Kincaid, let me know if you want details on this one, the > Australian Newspaper archives are available on Google search). > > ii) James Scott Kincaid b.24-Mar-1878 d.30-Jul-1940 > Married 1st to Constance Isobel Mackellar 01-Feb-1908 in Glasgow, > Constance > died in 1929, James remarried in Westminster 1934 to Jean Cumming. > The probate for James was confirmed by Jean Cumming widow and Randal G > Kincaid. I have been unable to find records of any children by either > marriages. > > iii) John George Kincaid b.1881, d.4-Aug-1909 > I have been unable to find records of any marriage or children > > iv) Henderson Kincaid b.30-Mar-1884, d.1927 Dorking Surrey > Married Marion Arnot Sloan 29-Jul-1913 Greenock > I have been unable to find any children > > v) Stewart Grierson Kincaid b.9-Jan-1890, d.5-Dec-1890 > > vi) Randal Grierson Kincaid b.28-May-1892, d.1984 Hastings > Randal married twice, 1st in London 1928 to Frances G Irvine (shipping > records also show this couple travelling), 2nd to Pauline (Lillie) Johnson > in Battle, Sussex 1939. Again, shipping records show this couple travelled > considerably. No children found > > 3) Thomas Kincaid b.29-Apr-1843, died 8-Jan-1903 Buenos Ayres although he > was 59 yrs old I can find no marriage or children for him. > > 4) James Kincaid b.11-Sep-1847, d.18-Oct-1903 Patagones Argentina I can > find no marriage or children for him, certainly none were mentioned on his > probate which was confirmed by William Clark Kincaid. > > 5) Charles Stewart Kincaid b.14-Jan-1851, d. 19-Jan-1924 > Probate confirmed by James Scott Kincaid & Henderson Kincaid, no mention > of > a wife or children, and no records found. > > 6) William Clark Kincaid b. 30-Nov-1854, d.17-Dec-17-Dec-1908 I can find > no > marriage or children for him, certainly none were mentioned on his probate > confirmed by Charles Stewart Kincaid and Randal Grierson Kincaid > > An Interesting article on this family can be found at; > http://sites.google.com/site/inverclydeshipbuilding/home/inverclyde-engineer > ing-companies/kincaids > but sadly it would seem no ongoing DNA. > > I do wonder with all the travelling these Kincaid men did, (as well as Sir > John Kincaid, and his nephew Thomas William kincaid) that, well boys will > be > boys, perhaps once genetic DNA testing becomes more affordable/popular > will we uncover some more Kincaids? > > ____________________________________________________ > > Looking back at John Kincaid & Margaret Gaff who had five children; > > Charles Kincaid born 3-May-1791 who died in Paarl South Africa as detailed > in my vetting > Also > Alexander born 1789 and died at Sea aged 17 years in 1806 = No DNA > Margaret Kincaid bap.22-Jul-1795, died 6-Oct-1863 who married Peter Hardie > 8-Mar-1811 > John Kincaid (Sir John Kincaid) bap.29-Jul-1787, died in Sussex > 23-Apr-1862. > Sir John married Louisa Frisbee on 19-Mar-1862 at Notting Hill > (certificate > available on Ancestry.com), his will mentions sole executrix as Dame > Louisa > Kincaid. No children recorded so no DNA > And .. > Thomas Kincaid bap.30-Oct-1785, died 31-Dec-1848 Glasgow, married Isabella > Balloch in 1818. This couple had eleven children (Isabella, John, William > Balloch, Thomas, Alexander, Charles Gaff, Isabella, Margaret, Mary and > Jane). > So, looking at the five boys - > > i) John Kincaid 1820- > I have not been able to confirm a death date, the last census return found > was 1881, showing John Kincaid born 1820, single and a cotton merchant > born > Stirlingshire Scotland and a boarder in Manchester. > > ii) William Balloch Kincaid 1822-1835 (Note; this OPR has no age for the > William Kincaid, however I have been unable to find any other record for > him > at all in any search engine). > iii) Thomas Kincaid b.05-May-1824, died 1906. Probate confirms census that > Thomas was single, retired merchant and that he lived with his spinster > sister Margaret who died the same year. The probate was confirmed by > William > Clark Kincaid and John Brownrigg Balloch. No marriage records, no > children). > > iv) Alexander Kincaid b.1827, died 1847 > > v) Charles Gaff Kincaid 1828-1849 in Devon. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > On > Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, 14 December 2010 12:37 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 439 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 432 (Peter A. Kincaid) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 10:36:20 -0400 > From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 432 > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; > reply-type=original > > These are of the Thomas Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly line. Henderson > is a grandson of Captain Thomas. He was John George Kincaid's > son. > > I believe you missed: > > A son to Mr & Mrs Thomas Kincaid born at Quarry Bank, Greenock > on 14th January 1851 [Greenock Advertiser, Greenock, UK. > 17 January 1851]. > > This would be Charles Stewart Kincaid. Charles Stewart, son of > Thomas Kincaid and Ann Henderson, was baptized on 28 January 1851 > at West (Old) Parish, Greenock. > > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 9:47 AM > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 432 > > >> Lesley, are these Kincaids from your family line? I did not see the >> first >> son of Capt. Thomas on this website. Henderson Kincaid may have been a >> grandson of Capt. Thomas or was he the first son? The marriage date >> seems >> too late for him to have been Thomas/Ann's son. >> >> KINCAID Captain Thomas Kincaid to Ann, only daughter of late Captain John >> Henderson, Port >> Glasgow, at Wood Cottage, Greenock on 2nd July 1838 by Reverend Menzies. >> (Greenock >> Advertiser 2.7.1838) see Ann H >> >> KINCAID Ann Henderson, wife of Captain Thomas Kincaid, died at >> Corriebank, >> 11 Eldon Street >> Greenock on 2nd January 1883 age 69. (Greenock Advertiser & Greenock >> Telegraph >> 3.1.1883) see Elizabeth; Captain Thomas >> >> KINCAID Henderson Kincaid, Greenock, to Marion Arnot, elder daughter of >> William A. Sloan, >> Larkfield, at St James?, Kilmacolm on 29th July 1913 ? p2. (Greenock >> Telegraph 30.7.1913) >> >> >> KINCAID James, 4th son of late Thomas Kincaid, Corriebank, Greenock, died >> at >> Patagones, >> Argentine on 18th October 1903 (Greenock Telegraph 13.11.1903) see Thomas >> >> KINCAID Thomas, 3rd son of late Thomas Kincaid, Corrie Bank, Greenock >> died >> at Buenos Ayres on >> 8th January 1903 (Greenock Telegraph 10.1.1903) James: Thomas(1884) >> >> >> KINCAID John George, 2nd son of Thomas, Kincaid, Greenock to Margaret >> Grierson, only daughter of >> James Scott, at Kirtlington, Oxford on 8th September 1875 (Greenock >> Telegraph 11.9.1875) >> >> KINCAID William Clark Kincaid, commission agent, youngest son of the late >> Thomas Kincaid, died at >> Corrie Bank, Greenock on 17th December 1908 (Greenock Telegraph >> 18.12.1908) >> see >> Thomas >> >> >> > http://www.inverclyde.gov.uk/GetAsset.aspx?id=fAAyADUANQAwAHwAfABGAGEAbABzAG > UAfAB8ADAAfAA1 >> >> Barbara >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lesley Cains >> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 5:47 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 432 >> >> OMG - obvious typo's - message edited/corrected below with CAPITALS with >> sincere apologies; >> >> Yes, I have looked at the 26-Jun-1730 marriage of JAMES & Janet (OPR >> 479/00 >> 0080 0081 Falkirk reads James Kincaid son of Thomas in Dalderse to Janet >> Simpson daughter of Ales Simpson in Kerse). >> The birth record of their son THOMAS (OPR 470/00 0030 0525 Falkirk >> 11-Jul-1731 witness Alex Simpson and John Kincaid) But ...... >> On 24-Jun-1725 (OPR 479/00 0080 0040 Falkirk) a John Kincaid married a >> Jean >> Kincaid (John Kincaid in Grange son to John Kincaid in Candie to Jean >> Kincaid daughter of Thomas Kincaid in Dalderse. >> The birth record of their son THOMAS (OPR 479/00 0030 0511 Falkirk >> 17-May-1730 witness John Kincaid and Tom Watts. >> >> Both THOMAS Kincaid's born 1730 and 1731 could well be the husband of >> Elizabeth Chiesly (Their wedding OPR's do not show any parents names) - >> Both >> possible fathers of THOMAS Kincaid gave their children similar names, >> making research difficult. >> Though it does look like the common link may be Thomas Kincaid (father of >> both James & Jean) from Dalderse. This would mean the DNA from Thomas in >> Dalderse could be from the Paternal line if JAMES & Janet were parents or >> Maternal if John & Jean were. >> >> Then, if the parents of THOMAS kincaid born 1730/1731 were John and Jean, >> that means I'm looking at a paternal line from John Kincaid in Candie ??? >> I think this would then be a different Kincaid line to Gene from the >> Kincaid >> DNA database. >> >> Thinking logically, following Scottish tradition of naming the 1st born >> male >> child after the child's grandfather, consider John & Jean being the >> parents, they had seven children, the first born son was Thomas, John's >> father was named John. The second son was named Alexander, Jean's father >> was named Thomas (clearly no tradition in this family. >> James & Janet had 13 children and their eldest was named Thomas, James' >> father was named Thomas, Janet's father was Alexander and she named her >> 2nd >> son Alexander. >> >> So to finding other possible DNA samples; Thomas and Elizabeth had 3 >> other >> children besides John (daughter Elizabeth and son Thomas who died in >> infancy >> - so they are of no help) Their son Alexander (1764-1854) married Jean >> Clark, they had 6 children (1) Thomas 1790-1794 (2) Marion 1792- ? (3) >> James >> 1794- 1855 Orchard Hill married twice, Agnes White and Anne Henderson and >> only had daughters. (4) Thomas (Captain Thomas Kincaid 1796-1884) married >> Anne Henderson, his family is well documented via his 2nd son's shipping >> business John G Kincaid & Co in Renfrewshire, and his other son's travels >> to >> Patagonia Buenos Aires. >> Note, I have not been able to find any of this family line researching >> their >> family tree, and have had no contact with anyone who may be able to help >> (can't really phone up from Australia and say "G'day , sorry to bother >> you >> but I think you are related to my son from way back in the 1700's and >> would >> you mind just submitting your DNA for me" ...... >> (5) Alexander Kincaid born 1798, I had thought he married Elizabeth Smith >> and that it was his son who became Major John Smith-Kincaid, but recent >> communication with Eric Kincaid's family has now thrown a question about >> this line with the possibility of 2 Alexander & Elizabeths. (6) John >> (1801-1808). >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >> On >> Behalf Of [email protected] >> Sent: Sunday, 12 December 2010 1:37 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 432 >> >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid >> &Elizabeth Chi... (Peter A. Kincaid) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 11:35:22 -0400 >> From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid >> &Elizabeth Chi... >> To: <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Except that the 17-May-1730 and 11-Jul-1731 baptisms she >> cites were not for a son John but for sons named Thomas. It >> wasThomas Kincaid who married Elizabeth Chiesly not John >> Kincaid. >> >> Just to be clear, even if a mother was a Kincaid when >> we do Y-DNA testing it is the father's DNA that is being >> passed on. There would be no Y-DNA trace of the mother >> in a participant today. >> >> Unfortunately, it is quite likely that the participant has a >> separate paternal lineage than the ancestor in question >> because they match no other Kincaid. Until a matching >> result is found for a participant in another branch of Thomas, >> one assumes that the participant's Y-DNA is not representative >> of the Kincaids of Dalderse or Grange or Candie. Legally >> the participant represents the line but genetic representation is >> another matter. >> >> Peter >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:50 AM >> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid >> &Elizabeth Chi... >> >> >>> WOW - this is a wonderful, thoughtful and scholarly piece of research. >>> Thank you for sharing this with the List. >>> >>> Ruth >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 12/10/2010 8:13:25 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, >>> [email protected] writes: >>> >>> Thank you Barbara >>> >>> Yes, I have looked at the 26-Jun-1730 marriage of John & Janet (OPR >>> 479/00 >>> 0080 0081 Falkirk reads James Kincaid son of Thomas in Dalderse to >>> Janet >>> Simpson daughter of Ales Simpson in Kerse). >>> The birth record of their son John (OPR 470/00 0030 0525 Falkirk >>> 11-Jul-1731 >>> witness Alex Simpson and John Kincaid) >>> But ...... >>> On 24-Jun-1725 (OPR 479/00 0080 0040 Falkirk) a John Kincaid married a >>> Jean >>> Kincaid (in Grange son to John Kincaid in Candie to Jean Kincaid >>> daughter >>> of >>> Thomas Kincaid in Dalderse. >>> The birth record of their son John (OPR 479/00 0030 0511 Falkirk >>> 17-May-1730 >>> witness John Kincaid and Tom Watts. >>> >>> Both John Kincaid's born 1730 and 1731 could well be the husband of >>> Elizabeth Chiesly (Their wedding OPR's do not show any parents names) - >>> Both possible fathers of John Kincaid gave their children similar >>> names, >>> making research difficult. >>> Though it does look like the common link may be Thomas Kincaid (father >>> of >>> James & Jean) from Dalderse. This would mean the DNA from Thomas in >>> Dalderse >>> could be from the Paternal line if John & Janet were parents or >>> Maternal >>> if >>> John & Jean were. >>> >>> Then, if the parents of John kincaid born 1730/1731 were John and Jean, >>> that >>> means I'm looking at a line from John Kincaid in Candie ??? >>> I think this would then be a different Kincaid line to Gene from the >>> Kincaid >>> DNA database. >>> >>> Thinking logically, following Scottish tradition of naming the 1st born >>> male >>> child after the child's grandfather, consider John & Jean being the >>> parents, they had seven children, the first born son was Thomas, John's >>> father was named John. The second son was named Alexander, Jean's >>> father >>> was named Thomas (clearly no tradition in this family) >>> James & Janet had 13 children and their eldest was named Thomas, James' >>> father was named Thomas, Janet's father was Alexander and she named her >>> 2nd >>> son Alexander. >>> >>> So to finding other possible DNA samples; >>> Thomas and Elizabeth had 3 other children besides John (daughter >>> Elizabeth >>> and son Thomas who died in infancy - so they are of no help) >>> Their son Alexander (1764-1854) married Jean Clark, they had 6 children >>> (1) >>> Thomas 1790-1794 (2) Marion 1792- ? (3) James 1794- 1855 Orchard Hill >>> married twice, Agnes White and Anne Henderson and only had daughters. >>> (4) >>> Thomas (Captain Thomas Kincaid 1796-1884) married Anne Henderson, his >>> family >>> is well documented via his 2nd son's shipping business John G Kincaid & >>> Co >>> in Renfrewshire, and his other son's travels to Patagonia Buenos Aires. >>> Note, I have not been able to find any of this family line researching >>> their >>> family tree, and have had no contact with anyone who may be able to >>> help >>> (can't really phone up from Australia and say "G'day , sorry to bother >>> you >>> but I think you are related to my son from way back in the 1700's and >>> would >>> you mind just submitting your DNA for me" ...... >>> (5) Alexander Kincaid born 1798, I had thought he married Elizabeth >>> Smith >>> and that it was his son who became Major John Smith-Kincaid, but recent >>> communication with Eric Kincaid's family has now thrown a question >>> about >>> this line with the possibility of 2 Alexander & Elizabeths. (6) John >>> (1801-1808). >>> >>> Interesting article at >>> >> > http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/corporate_neighbourhood/housing/policies_ >>> and_strategies/PDFs/dawson/april_2006_newsletter.pdf >>> >>> The farmer occupying Dalderse Mill Farm in 1876 were the >>> Kincaid family and in 1810 it was Thomas McGregor and he >>> was succeed by Andrew Mackie who died in 1831. >>> The farmer at Dalderse Farm in 1871 was Robert Buchan >>> and his farmland appears to be the area that was the >>> grounds of Dalderse Mansion House, north and west of >>> Bainsford Burn. >>> In 1876, about halfway between Dalderse Farmhouse and >>> the Forth & Clyde Canal on Abbot's Road, a large house >>> Orchard Hall was built and it had quite large grounds. >>> The owners were Alex. Vernon Macall, Fleet Paymaster of >>> H.M. Navy, Southsea, his wife, Jane Clark Kincaid or Macall >>> and her sister, Margaret Kincaid. However by 1891, Margaret >>> Walker Forrester was apparently living at Orchard Hall. >>> >>> Note - Jane Clark Kincaid was the daughter of James Kincaid and Agnes >>> Wilson >>> born in 1846, her father died at Orchard Hill and she had a sister >>> Margaret. >>> Back to John Kincaid born 1730/1731, the common grandfather was Thomas >>> Kincaid of Dalderse to both possible sets of John's parents. >>> >>> All suggestions, comments etc gratefully received. >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] >>> On >>> Behalf Of [email protected] >>> Sent: Saturday, 11 December 2010 8:37 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 429 >>> >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's (Barbara Van Hout) >>> 2. Re: Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid and >>> Elizabeth Chielsy (Barbara Van Hout) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:29:11 -0500 >>> From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> >>> Subject: [KINCAID] Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >>> >>> >> > http://www.electricscotland.com/history/records/scottishrecordso31scotuoft.p >>> df >>> >>> There is a David Kincaid, wife Elizabeth or Isabel Cockburn, with a son >>> John >>> Kincaid in these records. Also mentioned are Cuthbert Kincaid, James >>> Kincaid, Sr. & Jr., Stephen Kincaid, and Edward Kincaid, Burgess of >>> Edinburgh. >>> >>> The list is on p. 113 of the above link to the ?Protocol Book of >>> Gilbert >>> Grote, 1552-1573.? >>> >>> How were the Edinburgh Kincaids related to the James Kincaid family of >>> Campsie? >>> >>> >>> Barbara >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:36:40 -0500 >>> From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid >>> and Elizabeth Chielsy >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> Sue, I agree with you that it would be good to get another sample from >>> this >>> Kincaid family of Falkirk. >>> >>> The Family Search website gives James Kincaid (son of Thomas) and Janet >>> Simson/Simpson (daughter of Alexander) as the parents of Thomas >>> Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly. Which Thomas was the possible father of >>> James/Janet who married >>> Aug. 7, 1730 in Falkirk, Sterling, Scotland according to church >>> records. >>> >>> Barbara >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sue Liedtke >>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 5:29 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas >>> kincaidand >>> Elizabeth Chielsy >>> >>> I agree that the paper work is excellant. Lesley has worked very hard >>> to >>> get >>> all her ducks in a row but I am still hesitent to mark the line as >>> fully >>> vetted without a close match. The problem is not that this isn't a true >>> family line but that a vetted line says that the DNA profile is that of >>> the >>> given ancestor. That is a primary reason for vetting. In this case we >>> don't >>> know if this is Thomas's DNA profile or not. There may have been an >>> unrecorded non-Kincaid paternal event somewhere along the line. >>> >>> It is not just that Martyn doesn't match Gene. If he had matched anyone >>> in >>> any Group, even someone in the ungrouped section if it could be shown >>> that >>> the ancestral lines did not merge in recent times, then I would not a >>> see >>> a >>> problem. >>> >>> All vetted lines have a near DNA match. We held off vetting #168724 >>> until >>> a >>> confirming DNA sample could be tested. Many participants have had to >>> find >>> someone for testing in order to isolate a mutation before they could be >>> vetted to a specific ancestor. >>> >>> I know that Lesley has struck out in trying to get a DNA sample from >>> the >>> line of one of Charles' other sons. I am wondering if it is possible to >>> trace a line down from John? >>> >>> Sue Liedtke >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Don W Kincaid" <[email protected]> >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:58 PM >>> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas >>> kincaidand >>> Elizabeth Chielsy >>> >>> >>> I believe Lesley has done an excellent job in documenting the lineage >>> of >>> Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley. There are >>> not >>> many who are documented as well as this one. One of the other well >>> documented ones is for Gene Kincaid, #23547 who shows back to Falkirk >>> Parish >>> in Scotland like Martyn shows so I understand Sue's apprehension on >>> vetting >>> Martyn since his dna does not match with 23547. With the excellent >>> documentation for Martyn, I believe we should show him as vetted. One >>> big >>> reason I believe we should vet Martyn is that there could easily be 2 >>> lines >>> of Kincaid's in Falkirk Parish just as we have found 2 different lines >>> of >>> Kincaid's living next to each other in the Colonies in several >>> instances. >>> If >>> we did not have another participant showing to Falkirk Parish, would >>> anyone >>> have an objection to Martyn's lineage being vetted? I doubt anyone >>> would, >>> given the excellent documentation. If vetted, I would not object to >>> having >>> a >>> note stating that dna results have not confirmed Martyn's lineage to >>> Falkirk >>> or a similar statement. >>> >>> Don, # 1427 >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Sue Liedtke >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:40 PM >>> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas >>> kincaidand >>> Elizabeth Chielsy >>> >>> >>> This is the 2nd call for comments on the post seeking to vet #186057 to >>> Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly. I have asked that comments be directed to the >>> paper trail as a separate entity from the DNA as I have a question as >>> to >>> the >>> advisability of vetting a line without a confirming DNA sample from the >>> furthest ancestor. >>> >>> Normally it takes 2 identical samples from the lines of different sons >>> of >>> a >>> given ancestor to prove the DNA of that ancestor. In most cases we can >>> get >>> around this because we have identical DNA from other Kincaids whose >>> ancestors pre-date the given ancestor or could be descended from the >>> same >>> ancestor by a different son. In cases where there is an unexpected >>> significant mutation, that mutation needs to be isolated before the >>> line >>> can >>> be vetted. As an example:49289 has an unexpected mutation to 9 at >>> marker >>> 15. >>> This is a significant mutation as it is used to separate A-2 Kincaids >>> from >>> A-1 Kincaids, however no other Kincaid (and there are many >>> participants) >>> in >>> the immediate geographic region has this mutation. #49289 could not be >>> vetted until #135736 who does not have the mutation could be vetted to >>> a >>> common ancestor (note other unvetted lines from this ancestor do not >>> have >>> the mutation). >>> >>> In the case of #186057 we do not have identical DNA from anyone else in >>> the >>> project. While Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly may very well be represented by >>> #186057's DNA, there is also the possibility that an undisclosed >>> non-Kincaid >>> paternal event occurred somewhere along the line. This needs to be >>> ruled >>> out >>> with confirming DNA. >>> >>> Non the less, it would be of immense value to know if the paper >>> research >>> is >>> sound i.e if the DNA were confirmed could this line be vetted. This >>> would >>> facilitate finding a participant from a different son's line to be >>> tested >>> for confirming DNA. Please look over the paper trail and comment. >>> >>> Sue Liedtke >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Lesley Cains" <[email protected]> >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:31 AM >>> Subject: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaid and >>> Elizabeth Chielsy >>> >>> >>> >>> Vetting Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley >>> Martyn Kincaid DNA kit #186057 >>> Researcher : Lesley Sharon Cains, mother of Martyn Stuart Kincaid and >>> ex >>> wife of Alan John Kincaid >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Martyn Stuart Kincaid 'Living' b.1987, Lilydale,Victoria Australia not >>> married. >>> >>> Proven by; >>> >>> Australian birth certificate (original available) for Martyn Stuart >>> Kincaid; >>> parents listed as Alan John Kincaid and Lesley Sharon Kincaid nee >>> Cains. >>> >>> Personal knowledge; I know my son is the son of Alan John Kincaid. >>> ____________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Alan John Kincaid 'Living" b.1957 Carlton Victoria Australia m Lesley >>> Sharon >>> Cains in 1986 at Numurkah Victoria Australia (certificate available). >>> >>> Son of Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. >>> >>> Proven by; >>> >>> Australian birth certificate for Alan John Kincaid listing parents as >>> Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. >>> >>> Personal knowledge; I personally know the parents and siblings of Alan >>> John >>> Kincaid all of whom acknowledge him as the son of Bertram Langley >>> Kincaid. >>> >>> The parents and 3 of the 4 siblings of Alan John Kincaid are all still >>> living. >>> >>> The siblings of Alan John Kincaid are Robert Charles Kincaid, Karen >>> Eileen >>> Kincaid, Helen Jean Kincaid and Heather Kincaid (1963-1963). >>> _____________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Bertram Langley Kincaid 'Living' b.1930 Daylesford, Victoria Australia >>> m >>> Dorothy Dawn Nash 16 October 1955 Camberwell Victoria Australia. >>> >>> Son of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters (both >>> deceased). >>> >>> Proven by; >>> >>> Australian birth certificate for Bertram Langley Kincaid listing his >>> parents >>> as Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters, as confirmed by >>> Bertram Langley Kincaid who resides in Victoria Australia. >>> >>> Australian death certificate's (copies available) for Arthur Charles >>> Nelson >>> Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid (nee Waters) listing Bertram Langley >>> Kincaid >>> as their son, and also Bertram's siblings John (dec'd), Eileen (dec'd), >>> Valma and Arthur David. >>> >>> Australian Electoral Roll records 1954 showing Bertram Langley Kincaid >>> living at the home of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita >>> Kincaid >>> with his siblings Arthur and John. >>> >>> Springvale Victoria Australia crematorium records for Arthur Charles >>> Nelson >>> Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid. Website look up; >>> >>> >> > http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php?page=search&s_res=GO&cid=330&Given_N >>> ames=&Surname=kincaid&Surname_ex=&hw_num=100 >>> >>> Personal knowledge; I personally knew both parents of Bertram Langley >>> Kincaid and attended their funeral services. >>> I personally knew both Valma Jean Kincaid and Arthur David Kincaid >>> (both >>> now >>> deceased) siblings of Bertram Langley Kincaid. >>> The family also told me of Eileen Hilda Kincaid, sister of Bertram >>> Langley >>> Kincaid who married William St Dennis and migrated to the United >>> States, >>> her >>> social security death index ssn 037-20-3410 Rhode Island date of death >>> August 1976, and California passenger & Crew list showing Eileen St >>> Denis >>> & >>> William St Denis arriving in California 12 Sep 1946, with Eileen on an >>> Australian passport with notation of her maiden name confirms what the >>> family have related to me. >>> Alan John Kincaid also told of Bertram's deceased brother John Charles >>> Kincaid who died alone following an accident in his home in 1978 as >>> proven >>> by his obituary and Springvale Crematorium records. >>> >>> ____________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid b. 7 January 1902 Daylesford Victoria >>> Australia m Sarah Rita Waters 24 March 1922 Mildura Victoria Australia >>> (certificate available). >>> >>> Son of Charles Langley Kincaid and Elizabeth Nelson. >>> >>> Proven by; >>> >>> Australian birth record #2384 (copy available) for Arthur Charles >>> Nelson >>> Kincaid DOB as 7 January 1902 listing his parents as Charles Kincaid >>> (a >>> Miner aged 42) and Elizabeth Kincaid, formerly Nelson (aged 42) living >>> at >>> Eganstown Victoria, who were married 13 April 1891. Siblings shown on >>> the >>> certificate are Grace Cowling Kincaid, Alice Kincaid, Eliza Kincaid, >>> Clarice >>> Kincaid and Helena Kincaid (dec'd). >>> >>> Australian marriage record #558 (copy available) for Arthur Charles >>> Nelson >>> Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters married on 24 March 1922 at St Margaret's >>> Vicarage Mildura, listing Arthur's father as Charles Langley Kincaid, a >>> Miner as his father and Elizabeth Nelson as his mother. >>> >>> Australian death record #12575/83 (copy available) for Arthur Charles >>> Nelson >>> Kincaid date of death 6 June 1983 at Heatherton Victoria Australia, >>> retired >>> aged 81 years and born in Daylesford Victoria. Fathers name showing as >>> Charles Kincaid and mother as Elizabeth Kincaid (maiden name Nelson), >>> certified by his wife Sarah (known as Rita) Kincaid. This certificate >>> also >>> shows Arthur was 20 years old when he married Sarah Rita Waters in >>> Mildura >>> and that he was still married at the time of his death, children listed >>> as >>> Arthur aged 61 yrs, Valma aged 59 yrs, Eileen (deceased), John >>> (deceased), >>> Bertram aged 53 years. >>> >>> Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1924, 1931, 1936, 1937 and >>> 1949 >>> detailing his address and family members (available to view on >>> Ancestry.com). >>> >>> An on-line Australian newspaper Archive record detailing the death of >>> his >>> sister Clarice Leona Kincaid and recording that her body was identified >>> by >>> her brother Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid reads; "Found dead in the >>> bush, >>> died from exposure, exhaustion and natural causes (refer to inquest & >>> newpaper articles), VPRS 24/P Unit 1031 File 92 Clarice Leona Kincaid >>> died >>> on or about 28 Dec 1922 from exhaustion during the first stages of >>> labour. >>> Body identified by brother - Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid (stonemason) >>> residing at Victoria park Daylesford. Arthur Angove aged 16 from >>> Daylesord >>> was one of those that found her along with Frank Stevens and James >>> Langdon >>> who were bird nesting on Angus Hill, on the Cornish Reef". (ref; >>> >>> >> > http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1871036?searchTerm=clarice+kinc >>> aid). >>> >>> Springvale Victoria Crematorium records showing that he was cremated 8 >>> June >>> 1983. >>> >>> Personal knowledge; I personally knew Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and >>> visited his home with Alan John Kincaid, I also attended his funeral >>> service. I identified the address' given in the Australian Electoral >>> Roll's >>> from my visits to his home, and the earlier address' from when I took >>> Sarah >>> Rita Kincaid back To Daylesford and she showed me her old home. Sarah >>> Rita >>> Kincaid also took me to her own parents' grave, explaining that Arthur >>> Charles Nelson Kincaid was a stonemason by trade and made her parents >>> tombstone and many others in the Kyneton & Daylesford area. Sarah told >>> me >>> they had named their son Bertram Langley Kincaid after Arthur's father >>> Charles Langley Kincaid. >>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Charles Langley Kincaid b.21 Apr 1859 Mt Egerton Victoria Australia m >>> Elizabeth Nelson 30 April 1891 Daylesford Victoria (certificate >>> available). >>> >>> Son of Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Rae. >>> >>> Proven by; >>> >>> Australian birth record #154 (copy available) for Charles Langley >>> Kincaid >>> DOB as 21 April 1859 at Mount Egerton Victoria, details show father as >>> Thomas William Kincaid a Miner in aged 36 years and born Cape of Good >>> Hope, >>> marriage details on this record for Thomas William Kincaid given as >>> "1845 >>> Stepney London", other children "Thomas Kincaid and Alconda Degney >>> Kincaid". >>> Mother as Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae, aged 31 years from Waterford >>> Ireland >>> and signed by Thomas William Kincaid, father. >>> >>> Australian marriage record #4032 (copy available) for Charles Langley >>> Kincaid and Eliza Nelson 30 April 1891 at the Bible Christian parsonage >>> Daylesford. This record details Charles aged as 32 years as son of >>> Thomas >>> William Kincaid a Miner, and Elizabeth Rae. >>> >>> Australian death record #1813 (copy available) for Charles Langley >>> Kincaid, >>> a Miner died 28 May 1931 at the District Hospital Daylesford aged 72 >>> years, >>> his parents are given as Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Kincaid >>> formerly Rae. It shows Charles was buried on 30 May 1931 at Daylesford >>> cemetery and that he was born in Eganstown and had lived in Victoria >>> his >>> whole life. His children are listed as Grace 39 years, Alice 38 years, >>> Myrtle 35 years, Clarice (deceased) and Arthur 29 years. >>> >>> Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1914, 1924 and 1928 detailing >>> his >>> address and family members. >>> >>> Obituary; (1) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Friday, May 29, 1931 FUNERAL >>> NOTICE >>> KINCAID -The friends of the late Mr. Charles Langley Kincaid are >>> respectfully informed that his remains will be interred in the >>> Dayiesford >>> Cemetery TOMORROW (Saturday) May 30. The Funeral is appointed to leave >>> the >>> mortuary parlour of R. F. Verey at 1.30 pm. R. F. Verey, Funeral >>> Director. >>> Phone 245. (2) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Tuesday 2 June, 1931 OBITUARY >>> CHARLES >>> LANGLEY KINCAID The death occurred on Thursday morning last, of Mr >>> Charles >>> Langley Kincaid, after a long illness, at the age of 72 years. The late >>> Mr. >>> Kincaid was born in Eganstown district, and had resided in this >>> locality >>> all >>> his life. For many years he was connected to the mining industry. Mrs. >>> Kincaid and an adult family of three daughters and one son survive to >>> mourn >>> their loss, one daughter having predeceased Mr. Kincaid some years ago. >>> The >>> funeral took place on Saturday afternoon, and was largely attended. The >>> casket was carried by Messrs. M. Dickson, W. Spear, W. Burnett >>> (sons-in-law), C. Nelson (nephew), A. Dickson and J. Dickson. Rev. S. >>> D. >>> Yarrington conducted the service at the graveside, and the funeral >>> arrangements were in the hands of Mr. R. F. Verey. >>> >>> Grave; Grave C of E 4 C 6 In loving memory of Charles Langley Kincaid, >>> Elizabeth Kincaid, and Grace Cowling Dickson died 18 Feb, 1982. >>> >>> The personal knowledge of his grandson Bertram Langley Kincaid, who has >>> confirmed the above for me. >>> ______________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa >>> m >>> (i) >>> Elizabeth Catherine Barrett on 18 May 1845 Stepney London (certificate >>> available). Elizabeth Catherine Barratt died 13 March 1850. This >>> marriage >>> produced one child, Thomas Hardie Kincaid b. 16 February 1849 >>> (certificate >>> available) Rotherhithe England and died 3 February 1929 at Rotherhithe >>> London UK. >>> >>> Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa >>> m >>> (ii) Eliza Rae on 16 Nov 1850 Victoria Australia >>> >>> Son of Charles Kincaid and Hillegonda Sophia Row. >>> >>> Proven by; >>> >>> Beaufort West, South Africa Baptism register on microfilm number 5-39, >>> "Child Thomas William born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823. >>> Parents >>> Charles Kincaid, Hilegonda [sic] Sophia Roow [sic]. Witnesses Joseph >>> Cleaver, Susanna Frederica Roow [sic], Willem Roow[sic], Anna >>> Roow[sic]". >>> (photograph of document ordered from GISA and available November >>> 2010). >>> >>> Beaufort West South Africa Baptism record, born 2 August 1823, baptised >>> 17 >>> August 1823 as per the SA Genealogies by Lombard & Hesse, page 277 >>> (this >>> record purchased from GISA, Genealogy Institute of South Africa) and >>> also >>> provided by contact with Joy Roy (a descendant of Thomas William >>> Kincaid >>> and professional researcher), Heather McAllister and Tessa King >>> (Administrators for Ancestry24.com). >>> >>> Details taken from the - UK Marriage record for Thomas William Kincaid >>> (of >>> full age, a Mariner Chief Officer - son of Charles Kincaid, a sadler) >>> to >>> Elizabeth Catherine Barratt (with consent of parents) on 18 May 1845 >>> at >>> St >>> Thomas' Church Stepney UK, witnessed by William Brown & Sophia Barratt >>> (copy >>> available). >>> >>> Taken from the - UK Birth record (copy available) of Thomas Hardie >>> Kincaid >>> 16 February 1849, father given as Thomas William Kincaid (Master >>> Mariner) >>> mother as Elizabeth Catherine Kincaid formerly Barratt. >>> >>> Taken from the - Australian Death record #14665 (copy on available) 14 >>> December 1903 at Leonards Hill Victoria Australia, Thomas William >>> Kincaid >>> aged 80 years. His father was recorded as John Kincaid, profession >>> unknown, >>> information on this record was detailed as being provided by his son >>> John >>> Rae Kincaid. He was buried on 16 December 1903 at Eganstown Public >>> cemetery, >>> and shows he had lived 50 years in Victoria. Place of birth given as >>> Cape >>> Town, Cape Colony South Africa, married to Eliza Rae (not living). The >>> children of Thomas William Kincaid are listed as Charles 44 years, >>> Janet >>> 42 >>> years, John 40 years, Margaret 38 years, Annie 36 years, Isabella 34 >>> years, >>> Eliza 32 years, Thomas William 30 years and Alconda (deceased). >>> >>> The Australian birth records (copies available) for the Children of >>> Thomas >>> William Kincaid & Eliza Rae for Charles Langley 1859, John Rae 1863, >>> Annie >>> Eliza 1868, Elizabeth 1873, Thomas William 1875 all detailing the >>> father >>> and >>> his place of birth as The cape of Good Hope. >>> >>> The birth certificate's for Thomas William Kincaid's children; John >>> Rae >>> Kincaid in 1863 details Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae married in >>> Melbourne 1851. On Annie Eliza's record it details 'Melbourne', on >>> Elizabeth's as 16 November 1850 and on Thomas' 1875 birth record as 26 >>> November 1850. >>> >>> Australian death record (copy available) for daughter Alconda Kincaid >>> aged >>> 14 years 27 May 1870 in Eganstown details her parents as Thomas William >>> Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid, and that Alconda was born in Newstead, >>> Melbourne >>> Victoria Australia. >>> >>> The Australian marriage certificate for daughter Janet Hardie Kincaid >>> (copy >>> available) 25 October 1887 shows her parents as Thomas William Kincaid >>> and >>> Eliza Kincaid nee Rae, on her death record in 1933 (copy available) her >>> parents were given as John Kincaid (a Miner) and Eliza Kincaid formerly >>> Rae >>> as provided by S Brown, authorised agent >>> >>> When youngest son Thomas William Kincaid died in 1959 at aged 84 his >>> parents >>> were listed as unknown. >>> >>> Australian 1903 Electoral Roll showing Thomas William Kincaid living at >>> Leonards Hill Victoria, occupation Miner. >>> Australian Rate Books - Mt Franklin Victoria from 1872 - 1902 >>> >>> Australian Newspaper Archive - Daylesford Advocate Thursday 17 December >>> 1903 >>> - The late Mr Kincaid; The remains of Mr T W Kincaid were interred in >>> the >>> Eganstown Public Cemetery yesterday. The funeral started from his late >>> residence at Leonard's Hill and comprised of mourners in eight >>> conveyances >>> and seven horsemen. The bearers were Messers Kramer, Aldridge, McKidrew >>> (2), >>> Ladigus and Blackwell, Mr Taylor read the burial service. Messer's >>> Verey >>> Bros had charge of the mortuary arrangements. >>> _____________________________________________________ >>> >>> Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (i) Hillegonda Sophia Row on 3 August >>> 1818 >>> Cape of Good Hope (Hillegonda born 1800, died 4 February 1831). >>> >>> Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (ii) Christina Johanna Marian Sporkman, >>> widow >>> of John Herbert 12 October 1846 Cape of Good Hope (copy available). >>> >>> Son of John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff >>> >>> Proven by; >>> >>> Scottish OPR record 487/0010 0356 (copy on available) detailing "John >>> Kincaid and Margaret Gaff, their son named Charles was born 3 May 1791 >>> and >>> baptised 8 May, witness' Thomas Kincaid and John Gibb". >>> >>> Website - Old Polmont Church (note - please note that not all details >>> on >>> this website are accurate eg Sir John Kincaid given as never married, >>> he >>> in >>> fact married Louisa Frisbee a month before his death). refer >>> www.polmontold.org.uk/hist1845part06.html >>> >>>>From the list of passengers arriving in South Africa on board the Ship >>> 'The >>> Brilliant' in 1817, Charles Kincaid was part of a group of Scottish >>> Artisans >>> organised by Benjamin Moodie. >>> >>>>From the Book - British Residents at the Cape 1795-1819, by David >>>>Phillip >>> page 222, in part reads - "Kincaid, Charles, saddler single arrived 4 >>> June >>> 1817 Table Bay, in Brilliant ex Downs under Moodies direction. 2 August >>> 1817 >>> has commenced business (saddle, cap and harness maker). 3 August 1818 >>> marriage of CK of Falkirk, Stirling aged 27 to Hillegonda Sophia d,o, >>> Robt. >>> Row aged 18. 6 June 1819 baptised their son John Robert. 18 March 1821 >>> baptised of their son Charles Langley". >>> >>>>From the National Archives of South Africa - in 1818 'memorials >>>>received, >>> Charles Kincaid requesting permission to remain in the Colony. >>> >>>>From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid aged 27, >>> birthplace Falkirk Stirling married at The English Church to Hillegonda >>> Sophia Row aged 18 born at The Cape on 3 August 1818 as published in >>> The >>> Capetown Gazette. >>> >>> Marriage certificate (copy available) Charles Kincaid (widower, >>> occupation >>> Sadler) married in Paarl South Africa to Christina Johanna Maria >>> Sporkman >>> (widow). >>> >>> Death certificate #2505 (copy available) Charles Kincaid born in >>> Scotland, >>> married died on 5 March 1866. Lists the children of his 2nds wife's >>> previous marriage and John Robert Kincaid as son with Hillegonda >>> Sophia. >>> >>>>From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid will filed >>> 1866. >>> >>>>From the South African Commercial Advisor - (1) 1826, a daughter of Mr >>>>C >>> Kincaid baptised Jessy, (2) 1829 a son of Mr Charles Kincaid baptised >>> Alexander Row, (3) 1831 February 4, Sophia Kincaid wife of Mr C Kincaid >>> died >>> aged 30 years and 6 months. >>> >>> Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill >>> Kincaid" >>> >>> Reference; pamphlet obtained in full from The National Archives of >>> South >>> Africa "The Kincaid Family in South Africa" by JJ Scheepers and >>> confirmed >>> by >>> Leonard Kincaid who resides in South Africa son of Joy Scheepers & >>> Donald >>> Kincaid descendants of John Robert Kincaid b.1819 at the Cape of Good >>> Hope. >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> John Kincaid b.10 June 1762 Polmont Stirlingshire Scotland m Margaret >>> Gaff >>> (marriage on OPR's shows 20 Nov 1784 Bothkennar & 16 Dec 1784 as the >>> Proclamation Polmont for both parties) >>> >>> Son of Thomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chiesly (Cheesley) >>> >>> Proven by; >>> >>> Scottish OPR Baptism record 487/0010 0084 13 June 1762, "Thomas Kincaid >>> & >>> Elizabeth Chiesly their son named John was born 10 June and baptised 13 >>> June, witness' Alexander and Robert Kincaid and John Clark". (Copy >>> Available) >>> >>> Scottish OPR marriage record 473/000010/0260 20th November 1784 >>> marriage >>> bans, naming John Kincaid if Dalbeath. "(copy available). >>> >>> Falkirk Churchyard Grave 184, John Kincaid death 11 February 1794 aged >>> 33 >>> years. >>> >>> Reference; book - Mitchell, John Fowler. Monumental inscriptions (pre >>> 1855) >>> in East Stirlingshire. Edinburgh: Scottish Genealogy Society, 1972]. >>> "John Kincaid, 1st son of Thos Kincaid & Eliz Chislie, age 33, at >>> Carronflats on 11 February 1794; John's wife, Margt Gaff, age 85, on 5 >>> February 1844; John's 1st son, Thos Kincaid, age 63, at Glasgow on 31 >>> December 1848; John's youngest son, Alex Kincaid, age 17, having >>> drowned >>> by >>> shipwreck on coast of Durham on 27 January 1806; John's 2nd son, John >>> Kincaid, 76, at Hastings on 23 April 1862, (having entered the army in >>> 1809 >>> & served throughout the Peninsular war with Rifle Brigade, knighted >>> 1852, >>> senior exon of HM Royal Bodyguard & for many years government >>> inspector >>> of >>> prisons & factories for Scotland); John's (Margt Gaff) only daughter, >>> Margt >>> Kincaid, age 71, widow of the late Peter Hardie, merchant in Leith, on >>> 6 >>> October 1863; and John's 3rd son, Charles Kincaid, age 73, at Pearl >>> Cape >>> of >>> Good Hope on 5 March 1866" (Note - Information provided by both Peter A >>> Kincaid, Canada and also Ann Taylor, nee Kincaid England UK and >>> confirmed >>> verbally that this Book available from the National Library of >>> Australia, >>> Canberra Australia, copies of relevant extracts pending). >>> >>> Reference; made available courtesy of Peter A Kincaid, Canada. >>> "John Kincaid, son of Thomas Kincaid, farmer, Newlands, as heir to >>> Alexander >>> Chiesly, Tenant, Newlands, his grandfather, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in >>> part >>> of Bothkennar called Dalbeith, with Ferry Boat & fishing in Carron, & >>> Teinds, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Chan. Oct. 7. 1788. P.R. 30. 184. >>> [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1394. >>> Registered >>> 20 October 1788]". >>> "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, as heir to Elizabeth Chiesly, his mother, >>> seised, >>> Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, >>> and >>> Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Cl. Con. by himself, Oct. >>> 18. >>> 1788. P.R. 30.185. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. >>> 1, >>> no. 1395. Registered 20 October 1788]". >>> "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, gets Resig. ad Rem. Oct. 18. 1788, -of part >>> of >>> Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, & Fishing in Carron, par. >>> Bothkennar; -on Proc. resig. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30. 186. >>> [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1396. >>> Registered >>> 20 October 1788]". >>> "The Trustees of John Kincaid of Dalbaith, seised, Mar. 22. 1800, -in >>> an >>> Oxengate of land of Bothkennar called Dalbaith with the Ferry Boat and >>> part >>> of the fishing of the Water of Carron, and Teinds; (&2 Oxengates of >>> land >>> of >>> the lands of Bothkennar in warrandice), par. Bothkennar; -under burden >>> of >>> ?50 each to John, Alexander, and Charles Kincaid, and 500 Merks Scots >>> to >>> Margaret Kincaid, younger children of the said John Kincaid, &c; -on >>> Disp. >>> & >>> Settlement by the said John Kincaid, & Margaret Gaff, his spouse, Sept. >>> 6. >>> 1793. P.R. 36.35. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. >>> 1, >>> no. >>> 3904. Registered 20 May 1800]". >>> >>> Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill >>> Kincaid" >>> >>> Reference; Book - "Adventures of The Rifle Brigade" by sibling Sir John >>> Kincaid detailing his family, father John Kincaid. >>> ___________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Thomas Kincaid b. circa 1731 Falkirk Scotland m Elizabeth Chiesly 12 >>> July >>> 1761. >>> >>> Son of (unknown - possible either of James Kincaid & Janet Simson, or >>> John >>> Kincaid & Jean Kincaid) >>> >>> Proven by; >>> >>> Marriage record - Scottish OPR Marriage Ban 479/00008 00237 10 July >>> 1761 >>> Falkirk, and Scottish OPR Marriage proclamation Polmont 487/00002 0016 >>> (copies available) this record names Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chielsy >>> but >>> neither of their parents. >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Other resources used; >>> Ancestry.com record search for BDM records, Census returns, travel >>> records, >>> Australian Electoral Rolls. >>> Ancestry24.com for South African research re BDM's, Wills and >>> application >>> to >>> remain in the Colony. >>> Ancestry.Co.ZA to view & purchase South African death records. >>> Scotslands People (www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) record search for OPR >>> records >>> re BDM's, Census & Wills. >>> GISA (Genealogical Institute of South Africa) for South African family >>> history records. >>> NAAIRS for South African records re BDM's, Wills and application to >>> remain >>> in the Colony etc. >>> Book - British Residents at The Cape 1795-1819 by David Phillip. >>> On-Line Book - Extracts of Marriages at The Cape of Good Hope >>> 1806-1821. >>> On-Line Book - Extracts of Baptisms at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821 >>> 192.com for UK contacts. >>> Springvale Crematorium Records for confirming Australian deaths. >>> The Australian National Archives. >>> The Australian National Library. >>> The Victorian Government Public Records Office. >>> The Victorian Registry of Birth, Deaths & Marriages. >>> The Daylesford Family History Society. >>> The Australian WW2 Nominal Roll. >>> The Kincaid family living in Australia. >>> Trove - Australian newspapers on line. >>> London newspaper archives on line. >>> Edinburgh newspaper archives on line. >>> The Genealogical Society of South Africa historical newspapers on line. >>> Google. >>> >>> Note - Australia does not have census returns as these are not archived >>> after the government has collated the data it requires. >>> >>> > __________________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Footnote's - >>> >>> John Kincaid & Margaret Gaff had 5 children; >>> Son Thomas, a Merchant baptised 30 October 1785, died 31 December 1848. >>> Married Isabella Balloch 17 January 1818 and produced 5 sons and 5 >>> daughters >>> per the OPR records. OPR & BDM records show that 4 of the sons died >>> without >>> marrying, and John living in Lancashire unmarried aged 60 yrs in 1881. >>> Son John Kincaid baptised 29 July 1787, died 23 April 1862. Married >>> Louisa >>> Frisbee 19 March 1862, no children. >>> Son Alexander christened 7 June 1789, died in a shipwreck 27 January >>> 1806. >>> Never married, no children. >>> Son Charles as detailed above in vetting. >>> Daughter Margaret christened 22 July 1795, died 6 October 1863. Married >>> Peter Hardie 8 March 1811 and produced 4 sons and 1 daughter. Both her >>> son's Thomas Kincaid Hardie and John Hardie travelled to Australia in >>> search >>> of gold. Thomas married Janet Hoyle in Victoria 1848, returning to the >>> UK >>> to >>> 'live off his own means' as a 'retired Australian Squatter'. John >>> married >>> Elizabeth Hoyle in Victoria Australia 1841, this couple also returned >>> to >>> the >>> UK. >>> >>> Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisly's son Alexander b.1764 married Jean >>> Clark. This couple had 6 children, their son Thomas b.1796 was >>> 'Captain >>> Thomas Kincaid - Shipmaster' who married Ann Henderson. >>> Two of Thomas & Ann's sons died overseas - Alexander b.1839 died 1892 >>> in >>> Buenos Ayres and James b.1903 died in 1903 Patagonia Argentina. Their >>> 2nd >>> eldest of their son's , John George Kincaid born in 1840 founded J G >>> Kincaid Shipping in Inverclyde. John G Kincaid married Margaret >>> Grierson, >>> their eldest son Thomas Lennox Kincaid b.1877 travelled to Australia >>> settling in NSW. He married there in 1936 and died in December 1940, >>> (His >>> death certificate is available). His wife's son by her 1st marriage, >>> Hilton >>> Grenville Marcuso who had links to the notorious Kings Cross criminal >>> underworld, took the Kincaid surname, and died in NSW Australia in >>> 1975. >>> >>> Hillegonda Sophia Row, wife of Charles Kincaid - was born at The Cape >>> of >>> Good Hope in 1800 and dies at aged 31 on 4 February 1831 as listed in >>> the >>> South African Commercial Adviser. >>> Hillegonda was the daughter of Englishman Robert Row and Helena >>> Wilhelma >>> Aspeling. Helena & Robert married at The Cape on 14 April 1800, she >>> was >>> the >>> widow of Lambrecht Van der Woord and had two children by him (Johanna >>> Louise >>> and Jan Christian). >>> Helena and Robert had 3 other children; >>> Susannah Frederika Row 1802 - 1831. Susannah married Joseph Cleaver >>> (soap >>> manufacturer) in 1823 at Beaufort West and this couple were witness' to >>> the >>> marriage of Hillegonda & Charles Kincaid's son Thomas William Kincaid's >>> baptism at the Dutch Reformed Church in Beaufort West August 1823. They >>> had >>> one child, a daughter Ann born in 1824 and died in 1825. Joseph >>> Cleaver >>> died in 1824. >>> Johanna Margaretha Row 1802-1848. Johanna married Samuel Mollett in >>> 1834. >>> Robert James Row 1809-1839. >>> Hillegonda's mother was Hillegonda Kotze also born at The Cape of Good >>> Hope >>> as was her mother before her. It was Hillegonda Rows Gr Gr grandparents >>> that >>> came to The Cape from Germany and The Nederland's, and her grandfather >>> Erik >>> Aspeling from Sweden. >>> >>> Charles Kincaid & Hillegonda Row's 1st born son was John Robert >>> Kincaid >>> born >>> 1819. He married Frances Dorothea Fison 10th July 1846, and this >>> couple >>> had >>> six children; >>> Charles John Kincaid 5 Jan 1848 >>> Thomas Henrik Herbert Kincaid 20 Apr 1851 - 29 June 1923 (married Sarah >>> Maria Holmes, and had six children, see below) >>> Dorothea Christina Kincaid 11 Mar 1853 married Richard Walton >>> Alexander Frederick Kincaid 10 Apr 1855 >>> Ellen Elizabeth Kincaid 18 Jan 1857 >>> Elizabeth Harriette Kincaid 21 Mar 1860 >>> >>> Thomas Hendrik Herbert and Sarah Maria Holmes went on to have six >>> children; >>> Gertrude Frances Kincaid 16 Jul 1884 >>> Percy Frederick Kincaid 11 Nov 1886 - 22 May 1967 married (1) Alice >>> Maud >>> Poggenpoel, 2 children John b 15 May 1926 and Maud b 28 Sep 1914 (2) >>> Iris >>> Alexandria Morkel, one son Charles Morkel Kincaid b 22 Dec 1932. >>> (Charles >>> married Maria VanSchalkwyk and had 2 sons, John 15 Jan 1963 and Paul in >>> 1965. >>> Leonard Thomas Kincaid 25 Jan 1888 - 1965, married Charlotte Augusta >>> Gerhardt. This couple had 3 children; Gwendoline 28 Sep 1916 - 1956, >>> Roland >>> Kincaid b.1920 and Donald Kincaid 16 Aug 1929. Donald married Joy >>> Scheepers >>> and they had 3 children; Leonard, Gary & Mark Kincaid. >>> Mildred Constance Kincaid 10 Aug 1891 >>> Charles Henry Kincaid 24 Sep 1894, married Enid Audrey Holmes (Enid >>> was >>> born >>> in Rockhampton Qld 4 May 1901) >>> Gwendoline Jessie Holmes Kincaid 31 Oct 1897. >>> >>> The information re John Robert Kincaid and his descendants became >>> available >>> from a NAAIRS document 'The Kincaid family in South Africa' and a list >>> of >>> Kincaid births and marriages purchased from GISA. Leonard Kincaid (son >>> of >>> Donald and Joy - see 3 above) who still resides in South Africa, has >>> confirmed all of the above for me also advising he has 2 sons, Mark >>> Douglas >>> Kincaid and Luke Richard Kincaid who also reside in South Africa. >>> >>> Thomas Hardie Kincaid born 16 Feb 1849 to Thomas William Kincaid and >>> Elizabeth Catherine Barrett in Stepney, Ratcliff County of Middlesex. >>> His >>> death certificate shows he died on 3 Feb 1829 in Rotherhithe, County of >>> London as witnessed by his daughter Julia Charlotte Howes, nee >>> Kincaid. >>> >>> I am unsure who actually raised Thomas Hardie Kincaid after his mother >>> died >>> in 1850 and his father Thomas William Kincaid left the UK to continue >>> his >>> travels and ultimately end up in Australia. Thomas Hardie Kincaid is >>> mentioned on only one of his ? siblings Australian birth records, and >>> was >>> not listed on his father's Australian death certificate. >>> >>> Thomas Hardie married Sarah Ann Drake in 1867, and after her death >>> married >>> Elizabeth Abel in 1898. Thomas and Sarah had five children; >>> Julia Charlotte Kincaid 1868-1934 >>> William Henry Brooks Kincaid 1870-1943 >>> Sarah Catherine Kincaid 1873-1911 >>> Eliza Elizabeth Kincaid 1878- >>> Annie Brooks Kincaid 1883-1883 >>> Thomas William Brooks Kincaid 1885 - (date of death unconfirmed). >>> Thomas >>> married Alice May Springall and this couple had 6 children, the >>> youngest >>> being Eric David Hardie Kincaid (children's illustrator and Artist. >>> Eric >>> also did the artwork for Bill Kincaid in his book, This I'll Defend - >>> The >>> Story of the Kincaids). These details have been confirmed with Eric's >>> daughter Ann Taylor (nee Kincaid) and his son David Kincaid in the UK. >>> >>> (Further details available if required). >>> >>> Thankyou >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: >>> >>> >> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca >>> id%20%20DNA.xlsTo >>> join the DNA project, go >>> >> > to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027----------

Thanks for your message. Naturally,I'm hoping that this information carries my Kincaid ancestry a little farther back. Wilfred Kincaid --On Wednesday, December 15, 2010 8:06 AM -0800 Sue Liedtke <[email protected]> wrote: > Where did you find that William/Ann was son of a John? > > The naming pattern for the children would suggest that William/Ann Elliot > was the son of (or at least raised by) an Andrew/Mary. Perhaps the same > Andrew who fathered John/Alice Dean and James/Elizabeth Dean. > > In order for Wilfred to be vetted to William/Ann something needs to be > obtained showing that William/Martha Estill is the William refered to. > This last bit of proof might be in the Missouri probate file of either > James or Ann. > > Sue Liedtke > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 6:58 AM > Subject: [KINCAID] Kincaids in Brazil > > >> Wilfred Kincaid is DNA # 59442 Group A, set 1a, vetted to William >> Kincaid/Martha Estill. It was recently shown by deeds that >> William/Martha was a son of William/Ann of Virginia, who was a son of >> John. >> >> See what Sue wrote here: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/kincaid/2010-03/1267747723 >> >>> From the book "Abstracts of the Wills and Inventories of Bath County, >> Virginia, 1791-1842" by Jean Randolph Bruns: >> P. 96 >> >> BATH COUNTY, VA WILL BOOK 2 >> p. 265 >> Power of attorney from Archibald Kincaid of Madison County, Alabama >> Territory, to James Kincaid to convey his interest in land belonging to >> the >> heirs of William Kincaid, Nov. 10, 1818. Wit: Samuel Given Jr., executed >> in >> Alabama Territory. >> >> p. 267 >> Power of attorney by William Kincaid of Madison Co., Alabama Territory, >> to Ann Kincaid for the same purpose as above. >> >> >> >> "I had an uncle who was a lawyer in Brazil, but I thought none of his >> family >> remained there after his death. But of course his law firm could have >> retained the name." >> >> Wilfred Kincaid >> >> >> Barbara >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lesley Cains >> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 2:44 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 439 >> >> Thanks everyone >> Yes, Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chislie had 4 children; >> >> John Kincaid who married Margaret Gaff (as detailed in my vetting post) >> Thomas Kincaid baptised 13-Apr-1766 and died in 1767. >> Elizabeth Kincaid baptised 15-Nov-1767 (IGI has a marriage to a James >> Hardie, but there are no OPR's) >> >> And; >> Alexander Kincaid christened 15-May-1764 and died 17-Feb-1854. >> He married Jean Clark and had six children (Thomas, John, Marion, James, >> Alexander and Thomas); >> >> Thomas Kincaid 1790-1794 = died in childhood so N/A for DNA >> >> John Kincaid 1801-1808 = died in childhood so N/A for DNA >> >> Marion Kincaid 1792 - ?? = Female so N/A for DNA >> >> James Kincaid b.09-Apr-1794, died 7-Jul-1855 at orchid Hill, he married >> 1st >> to Janet Hill 18-Apr-1842, Janet died 1-Jul-1842 (no children), then >> James married in June 1843 to Agnes Wilson and they had 4 daughters >> (Agnes Cook Kincaid, Jane Clarke Kincaid, Margaret Kincaid and Mary >> Kincaid) = all Female so N/A for DNA. >> >> Alexander Kincaid b.17-Jul-1798, there is an OPR marriage to Elizabeth >> Smith >> in Polmont 30-Jan-1813, unfortunately there are no parents mentioned on >> this >> OPR, and with the prolific naming of Alexander, I'm hesitant to say >> categorically this is the one. However, this couple did produce nine >> children (Alexander, Margaret, twins Janet & Elizabeth, Agnes, Jean, >> James, >> Janet with youngest child John born 1826 possibly being Major John >> Kincaid-Smith). I purchased the will of an Alexander Kincaid who died in >> 1849 stating he was widow of Elizabeth Smith and a farmer of Bowhouse >> Parish >> of Polmont. This document does not match up regarding all of his >> children's >> names, it mentions his sons Alexander & John only - could be son James >> was dead or out of favour ? and only mentioning daughters Margaret, >> Elizabeth, Jane (one could presume Jane to be Jean ) & Jessie ?? From >> the book - Stirlingshire Monumental inscriptions, it appears there were >> three tablets positioned together (implying close members of a family >> unit ?) written as chn are Janet, Agnes & Jas near Alexander & Elizabeth >> Kincaid. I'm still following up on this one. >> >> And, Thomas "Captain' Kincaid b.26-Sep-1796 and died 18-Mar-1884 who >> married Ann Henderson on 2-Jul-1838 did produce 10 children; >> Alexander Kincaid 1839-1892 >> John George Kincaid 1840-1924 >> Janet Kincaid 1842- ? >> Ann Jane Kincaid 1849- ? >> Marion Kincaid 1845-1930 >> James Kincaid 1847-1903 >> Elizabeth Kincaid 1848- ? >> Charles Stewart Kincaid 1851-1924 >> William Clark Kincaid 1854-1908 >> >> So considering these six sons of Captain Thomas Kincaid & Ann Henderson; >> >> 1) Alexander b.30-May-1839, d.29-Jul-1892 238 Calle Son Martin, Buenos >> Ayres, I can find no marriage or children for him. >> http://www.argbrit.org/Saudades/Saudades.htm >> >> 2) John George Kincaid, founder of John G Kincaid & Co, b.3-Oct-1840 and >> died 26-Apr-1924 married Margaret Grierson 8-Sep-1875. >> Probate confirmed by son's James Scott, Randal Grierson & Henderson >> Kincaid >> >> This couple had six sons = >> >> i) Thomas Lennox Kincaid b.1877 and died in Randwick NSW Australia 1940 >> (I have his death certificate which records his 2 marriages in Australia >> and that there were no children - the man who called himself Hilton >> Granville Kincaid was actually the son of his 2nd wife, who changed his >> surname from Marcosso to Kincaid, let me know if you want details on >> this one, the Australian Newspaper archives are available on Google >> search). >> >> ii) James Scott Kincaid b.24-Mar-1878 d.30-Jul-1940 >> Married 1st to Constance Isobel Mackellar 01-Feb-1908 in Glasgow, >> Constance >> died in 1929, James remarried in Westminster 1934 to Jean Cumming. >> The probate for James was confirmed by Jean Cumming widow and Randal G >> Kincaid. I have been unable to find records of any children by either >> marriages. >> >> iii) John George Kincaid b.1881, d.4-Aug-1909 >> I have been unable to find records of any marriage or children >> >> iv) Henderson Kincaid b.30-Mar-1884, d.1927 Dorking Surrey >> Married Marion Arnot Sloan 29-Jul-1913 Greenock >> I have been unable to find any children >> >> v) Stewart Grierson Kincaid b.9-Jan-1890, d.5-Dec-1890 >> >> vi) Randal Grierson Kincaid b.28-May-1892, d.1984 Hastings >> Randal married twice, 1st in London 1928 to Frances G Irvine (shipping >> records also show this couple travelling), 2nd to Pauline (Lillie) >> Johnson in Battle, Sussex 1939. Again, shipping records show this couple >> travelled considerably. No children found >> >> 3) Thomas Kincaid b.29-Apr-1843, died 8-Jan-1903 Buenos Ayres although he >> was 59 yrs old I can find no marriage or children for him. >> >> 4) James Kincaid b.11-Sep-1847, d.18-Oct-1903 Patagones Argentina I can >> find no marriage or children for him, certainly none were mentioned on >> his probate which was confirmed by William Clark Kincaid. >> >> 5) Charles Stewart Kincaid b.14-Jan-1851, d. 19-Jan-1924 >> Probate confirmed by James Scott Kincaid & Henderson Kincaid, no mention >> of >> a wife or children, and no records found. >> >> 6) William Clark Kincaid b. 30-Nov-1854, d.17-Dec-17-Dec-1908 I can find >> no >> marriage or children for him, certainly none were mentioned on his >> probate confirmed by Charles Stewart Kincaid and Randal Grierson Kincaid >> >> An Interesting article on this family can be found at; >> http://sites.google.com/site/inverclydeshipbuilding/home/inverclyde-engi >> neer ing-companies/kincaids >> but sadly it would seem no ongoing DNA. >> >> I do wonder with all the travelling these Kincaid men did, (as well as >> Sir John Kincaid, and his nephew Thomas William kincaid) that, well boys >> will be >> boys, perhaps once genetic DNA testing becomes more affordable/popular >> will we uncover some more Kincaids? >> >> ____________________________________________________ >> >> Looking back at John Kincaid & Margaret Gaff who had five children; >> >> Charles Kincaid born 3-May-1791 who died in Paarl South Africa as >> detailed in my vetting >> Also >> Alexander born 1789 and died at Sea aged 17 years in 1806 = No DNA >> Margaret Kincaid bap.22-Jul-1795, died 6-Oct-1863 who married Peter >> Hardie 8-Mar-1811 >> John Kincaid (Sir John Kincaid) bap.29-Jul-1787, died in Sussex >> 23-Apr-1862. >> Sir John married Louisa Frisbee on 19-Mar-1862 at Notting Hill >> (certificate >> available on Ancestry.com), his will mentions sole executrix as Dame >> Louisa >> Kincaid. No children recorded so no DNA >> And .. >> Thomas Kincaid bap.30-Oct-1785, died 31-Dec-1848 Glasgow, married >> Isabella Balloch in 1818. This couple had eleven children (Isabella, >> John, William Balloch, Thomas, Alexander, Charles Gaff, Isabella, >> Margaret, Mary and Jane). >> So, looking at the five boys - >> >> i) John Kincaid 1820- >> I have not been able to confirm a death date, the last census return >> found was 1881, showing John Kincaid born 1820, single and a cotton >> merchant born >> Stirlingshire Scotland and a boarder in Manchester. >> >> ii) William Balloch Kincaid 1822-1835 (Note; this OPR has no age for the >> William Kincaid, however I have been unable to find any other record for >> him >> at all in any search engine). >> iii) Thomas Kincaid b.05-May-1824, died 1906. Probate confirms census >> that Thomas was single, retired merchant and that he lived with his >> spinster sister Margaret who died the same year. The probate was >> confirmed by William >> Clark Kincaid and John Brownrigg Balloch. No marriage records, no >> children). >> >> iv) Alexander Kincaid b.1827, died 1847 >> >> v) Charles Gaff Kincaid 1828-1849 in Devon. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >> On >> Behalf Of [email protected] >> Sent: Tuesday, 14 December 2010 12:37 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 439 >> >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 432 (Peter A. Kincaid) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 10:36:20 -0400 >> From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 432 >> To: <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; >> reply-type=original >> >> These are of the Thomas Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly line. Henderson >> is a grandson of Captain Thomas. He was John George Kincaid's >> son. >> >> I believe you missed: >> >> A son to Mr & Mrs Thomas Kincaid born at Quarry Bank, Greenock >> on 14th January 1851 [Greenock Advertiser, Greenock, UK. >> 17 January 1851]. >> >> This would be Charles Stewart Kincaid. Charles Stewart, son of >> Thomas Kincaid and Ann Henderson, was baptized on 28 January 1851 >> at West (Old) Parish, Greenock. >> >> Peter >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 9:47 AM >> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 432 >> >> >>> Lesley, are these Kincaids from your family line? I did not see the >>> first >>> son of Capt. Thomas on this website. Henderson Kincaid may have been a >>> grandson of Capt. Thomas or was he the first son? The marriage date >>> seems >>> too late for him to have been Thomas/Ann's son. >>> >>> KINCAID Captain Thomas Kincaid to Ann, only daughter of late Captain >>> John Henderson, Port >>> Glasgow, at Wood Cottage, Greenock on 2nd July 1838 by Reverend Menzies. >>> (Greenock >>> Advertiser 2.7.1838) see Ann H >>> >>> KINCAID Ann Henderson, wife of Captain Thomas Kincaid, died at >>> Corriebank, >>> 11 Eldon Street >>> Greenock on 2nd January 1883 age 69. (Greenock Advertiser & Greenock >>> Telegraph >>> 3.1.1883) see Elizabeth; Captain Thomas >>> >>> KINCAID Henderson Kincaid, Greenock, to Marion Arnot, elder daughter of >>> William A. Sloan, >>> Larkfield, at St James?, Kilmacolm on 29th July 1913 ? p2. (Greenock >>> Telegraph 30.7.1913) >>> >>> >>> KINCAID James, 4th son of late Thomas Kincaid, Corriebank, Greenock, >>> died at >>> Patagones, >>> Argentine on 18th October 1903 (Greenock Telegraph 13.11.1903) see >>> Thomas >>> >>> KINCAID Thomas, 3rd son of late Thomas Kincaid, Corrie Bank, Greenock >>> died >>> at Buenos Ayres on >>> 8th January 1903 (Greenock Telegraph 10.1.1903) James: Thomas(1884) >>> >>> >>> KINCAID John George, 2nd son of Thomas, Kincaid, Greenock to Margaret >>> Grierson, only daughter of >>> James Scott, at Kirtlington, Oxford on 8th September 1875 (Greenock >>> Telegraph 11.9.1875) >>> >>> KINCAID William Clark Kincaid, commission agent, youngest son of the >>> late Thomas Kincaid, died at >>> Corrie Bank, Greenock on 17th December 1908 (Greenock Telegraph >>> 18.12.1908) >>> see >>> Thomas >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.inverclyde.gov.uk/GetAsset.aspx?id=fAAyADUANQAwAHwAfABGAGEAbA >> BzAG UAfAB8ADAAfAA1 >>> >>> Barbara >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Lesley Cains >>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 5:47 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 432 >>> >>> OMG - obvious typo's - message edited/corrected below with CAPITALS >>> with sincere apologies; >>> >>> Yes, I have looked at the 26-Jun-1730 marriage of JAMES & Janet (OPR >>> 479/00 >>> 0080 0081 Falkirk reads James Kincaid son of Thomas in Dalderse to Janet >>> Simpson daughter of Ales Simpson in Kerse). >>> The birth record of their son THOMAS (OPR 470/00 0030 0525 Falkirk >>> 11-Jul-1731 witness Alex Simpson and John Kincaid) But ...... >>> On 24-Jun-1725 (OPR 479/00 0080 0040 Falkirk) a John Kincaid married a >>> Jean >>> Kincaid (John Kincaid in Grange son to John Kincaid in Candie to Jean >>> Kincaid daughter of Thomas Kincaid in Dalderse. >>> The birth record of their son THOMAS (OPR 479/00 0030 0511 Falkirk >>> 17-May-1730 witness John Kincaid and Tom Watts. >>> >>> Both THOMAS Kincaid's born 1730 and 1731 could well be the husband of >>> Elizabeth Chiesly (Their wedding OPR's do not show any parents names) - >>> Both >>> possible fathers of THOMAS Kincaid gave their children similar names, >>> making research difficult. >>> Though it does look like the common link may be Thomas Kincaid (father >>> of both James & Jean) from Dalderse. This would mean the DNA from >>> Thomas in Dalderse could be from the Paternal line if JAMES & Janet >>> were parents or Maternal if John & Jean were. >>> >>> Then, if the parents of THOMAS kincaid born 1730/1731 were John and >>> Jean, that means I'm looking at a paternal line from John Kincaid in >>> Candie ??? I think this would then be a different Kincaid line to Gene >>> from the Kincaid >>> DNA database. >>> >>> Thinking logically, following Scottish tradition of naming the 1st born >>> male >>> child after the child's grandfather, consider John & Jean being the >>> parents, they had seven children, the first born son was Thomas, John's >>> father was named John. The second son was named Alexander, Jean's >>> father was named Thomas (clearly no tradition in this family. >>> James & Janet had 13 children and their eldest was named Thomas, James' >>> father was named Thomas, Janet's father was Alexander and she named her >>> 2nd >>> son Alexander. >>> >>> So to finding other possible DNA samples; Thomas and Elizabeth had 3 >>> other >>> children besides John (daughter Elizabeth and son Thomas who died in >>> infancy >>> - so they are of no help) Their son Alexander (1764-1854) married Jean >>> Clark, they had 6 children (1) Thomas 1790-1794 (2) Marion 1792- ? (3) >>> James >>> 1794- 1855 Orchard Hill married twice, Agnes White and Anne Henderson >>> and only had daughters. (4) Thomas (Captain Thomas Kincaid 1796-1884) >>> married Anne Henderson, his family is well documented via his 2nd son's >>> shipping business John G Kincaid & Co in Renfrewshire, and his other >>> son's travels to >>> Patagonia Buenos Aires. >>> Note, I have not been able to find any of this family line researching >>> their >>> family tree, and have had no contact with anyone who may be able to help >>> (can't really phone up from Australia and say "G'day , sorry to bother >>> you >>> but I think you are related to my son from way back in the 1700's and >>> would >>> you mind just submitting your DNA for me" ...... >>> (5) Alexander Kincaid born 1798, I had thought he married Elizabeth >>> Smith and that it was his son who became Major John Smith-Kincaid, but >>> recent communication with Eric Kincaid's family has now thrown a >>> question about this line with the possibility of 2 Alexander & >>> Elizabeths. (6) John (1801-1808). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >>> On >>> Behalf Of [email protected] >>> Sent: Sunday, 12 December 2010 1:37 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 432 >>> >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid >>> &Elizabeth Chi... (Peter A. Kincaid) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 11:35:22 -0400 >>> From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid >>> &Elizabeth Chi... >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> Except that the 17-May-1730 and 11-Jul-1731 baptisms she >>> cites were not for a son John but for sons named Thomas. It >>> wasThomas Kincaid who married Elizabeth Chiesly not John >>> Kincaid. >>> >>> Just to be clear, even if a mother was a Kincaid when >>> we do Y-DNA testing it is the father's DNA that is being >>> passed on. There would be no Y-DNA trace of the mother >>> in a participant today. >>> >>> Unfortunately, it is quite likely that the participant has a >>> separate paternal lineage than the ancestor in question >>> because they match no other Kincaid. Until a matching >>> result is found for a participant in another branch of Thomas, >>> one assumes that the participant's Y-DNA is not representative >>> of the Kincaids of Dalderse or Grange or Candie. Legally >>> the participant represents the line but genetic representation is >>> another matter. >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <[email protected]> >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:50 AM >>> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid >>> &Elizabeth Chi... >>> >>> >>>> WOW - this is a wonderful, thoughtful and scholarly piece of research. >>>> Thank you for sharing this with the List. >>>> >>>> Ruth >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 12/10/2010 8:13:25 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, >>>> [email protected] writes: >>>> >>>> Thank you Barbara >>>> >>>> Yes, I have looked at the 26-Jun-1730 marriage of John & Janet (OPR >>>> 479/00 >>>> 0080 0081 Falkirk reads James Kincaid son of Thomas in Dalderse to >>>> Janet >>>> Simpson daughter of Ales Simpson in Kerse). >>>> The birth record of their son John (OPR 470/00 0030 0525 Falkirk >>>> 11-Jul-1731 >>>> witness Alex Simpson and John Kincaid) >>>> But ...... >>>> On 24-Jun-1725 (OPR 479/00 0080 0040 Falkirk) a John Kincaid married a >>>> Jean >>>> Kincaid (in Grange son to John Kincaid in Candie to Jean Kincaid >>>> daughter >>>> of >>>> Thomas Kincaid in Dalderse. >>>> The birth record of their son John (OPR 479/00 0030 0511 Falkirk >>>> 17-May-1730 >>>> witness John Kincaid and Tom Watts. >>>> >>>> Both John Kincaid's born 1730 and 1731 could well be the husband of >>>> Elizabeth Chiesly (Their wedding OPR's do not show any parents names) - >>>> Both possible fathers of John Kincaid gave their children similar >>>> names, >>>> making research difficult. >>>> Though it does look like the common link may be Thomas Kincaid (father >>>> of >>>> James & Jean) from Dalderse. This would mean the DNA from Thomas in >>>> Dalderse >>>> could be from the Paternal line if John & Janet were parents or >>>> Maternal >>>> if >>>> John & Jean were. >>>> >>>> Then, if the parents of John kincaid born 1730/1731 were John and >>>> Jean, that >>>> means I'm looking at a line from John Kincaid in Candie ??? >>>> I think this would then be a different Kincaid line to Gene from the >>>> Kincaid >>>> DNA database. >>>> >>>> Thinking logically, following Scottish tradition of naming the 1st >>>> born male >>>> child after the child's grandfather, consider John & Jean being the >>>> parents, they had seven children, the first born son was Thomas, >>>> John's father was named John. The second son was named Alexander, >>>> Jean's father >>>> was named Thomas (clearly no tradition in this family) >>>> James & Janet had 13 children and their eldest was named Thomas, >>>> James' father was named Thomas, Janet's father was Alexander and she >>>> named her 2nd >>>> son Alexander. >>>> >>>> So to finding other possible DNA samples; >>>> Thomas and Elizabeth had 3 other children besides John (daughter >>>> Elizabeth >>>> and son Thomas who died in infancy - so they are of no help) >>>> Their son Alexander (1764-1854) married Jean Clark, they had 6 >>>> children (1) >>>> Thomas 1790-1794 (2) Marion 1792- ? (3) James 1794- 1855 Orchard Hill >>>> married twice, Agnes White and Anne Henderson and only had daughters. >>>> (4) >>>> Thomas (Captain Thomas Kincaid 1796-1884) married Anne Henderson, his >>>> family >>>> is well documented via his 2nd son's shipping business John G Kincaid >>>> & Co >>>> in Renfrewshire, and his other son's travels to Patagonia Buenos >>>> Aires. Note, I have not been able to find any of this family line >>>> researching their >>>> family tree, and have had no contact with anyone who may be able to >>>> help >>>> (can't really phone up from Australia and say "G'day , sorry to bother >>>> you >>>> but I think you are related to my son from way back in the 1700's and >>>> would >>>> you mind just submitting your DNA for me" ...... >>>> (5) Alexander Kincaid born 1798, I had thought he married Elizabeth >>>> Smith >>>> and that it was his son who became Major John Smith-Kincaid, but >>>> recent communication with Eric Kincaid's family has now thrown a >>>> question about >>>> this line with the possibility of 2 Alexander & Elizabeths. (6) John >>>> (1801-1808). >>>> >>>> Interesting article at >>>> >>> >> http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/corporate_neighbourhood/housing/polic >> ies_ >>>> and_strategies/PDFs/dawson/april_2006_newsletter.pdf >>>> >>>> The farmer occupying Dalderse Mill Farm in 1876 were the >>>> Kincaid family and in 1810 it was Thomas McGregor and he >>>> was succeed by Andrew Mackie who died in 1831. >>>> The farmer at Dalderse Farm in 1871 was Robert Buchan >>>> and his farmland appears to be the area that was the >>>> grounds of Dalderse Mansion House, north and west of >>>> Bainsford Burn. >>>> In 1876, about halfway between Dalderse Farmhouse and >>>> the Forth & Clyde Canal on Abbot's Road, a large house >>>> Orchard Hall was built and it had quite large grounds. >>>> The owners were Alex. Vernon Macall, Fleet Paymaster of >>>> H.M. Navy, Southsea, his wife, Jane Clark Kincaid or Macall >>>> and her sister, Margaret Kincaid. However by 1891, Margaret >>>> Walker Forrester was apparently living at Orchard Hall. >>>> >>>> Note - Jane Clark Kincaid was the daughter of James Kincaid and Agnes >>>> Wilson >>>> born in 1846, her father died at Orchard Hill and she had a sister >>>> Margaret. >>>> Back to John Kincaid born 1730/1731, the common grandfather was Thomas >>>> Kincaid of Dalderse to both possible sets of John's parents. >>>> >>>> All suggestions, comments etc gratefully received. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> On >>>> Behalf Of [email protected] >>>> Sent: Saturday, 11 December 2010 8:37 AM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 429 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's (Barbara Van Hout) >>>> 2. Re: Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid and >>>> Elizabeth Chielsy (Barbara Van Hout) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:29:11 -0500 >>>> From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: [KINCAID] Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.electricscotland.com/history/records/scottishrecordso31scotuo >> ft.p >>>> df >>>> >>>> There is a David Kincaid, wife Elizabeth or Isabel Cockburn, with a >>>> son John >>>> Kincaid in these records. Also mentioned are Cuthbert Kincaid, James >>>> Kincaid, Sr. & Jr., Stephen Kincaid, and Edward Kincaid, Burgess of >>>> Edinburgh. >>>> >>>> The list is on p. 113 of the above link to the ?Protocol Book of >>>> Gilbert >>>> Grote, 1552-1573.? >>>> >>>> How were the Edinburgh Kincaids related to the James Kincaid family >>>> of Campsie? >>>> >>>> >>>> Barbara >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:36:40 -0500 >>>> From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid >>>> and Elizabeth Chielsy >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> Sue, I agree with you that it would be good to get another sample from >>>> this >>>> Kincaid family of Falkirk. >>>> >>>> The Family Search website gives James Kincaid (son of Thomas) and >>>> Janet Simson/Simpson (daughter of Alexander) as the parents of Thomas >>>> Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly. Which Thomas was the possible father of >>>> James/Janet who married >>>> Aug. 7, 1730 in Falkirk, Sterling, Scotland according to church >>>> records. >>>> >>>> Barbara >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Sue Liedtke >>>> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 5:29 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas >>>> kincaidand >>>> Elizabeth Chielsy >>>> >>>> I agree that the paper work is excellant. Lesley has worked very hard >>>> to >>>> get >>>> all her ducks in a row but I am still hesitent to mark the line as >>>> fully >>>> vetted without a close match. The problem is not that this isn't a >>>> true family line but that a vetted line says that the DNA profile is >>>> that of the >>>> given ancestor. That is a primary reason for vetting. In this case we >>>> don't >>>> know if this is Thomas's DNA profile or not. There may have been an >>>> unrecorded non-Kincaid paternal event somewhere along the line. >>>> >>>> It is not just that Martyn doesn't match Gene. If he had matched >>>> anyone in >>>> any Group, even someone in the ungrouped section if it could be shown >>>> that >>>> the ancestral lines did not merge in recent times, then I would not a >>>> see >>>> a >>>> problem. >>>> >>>> All vetted lines have a near DNA match. We held off vetting #168724 >>>> until >>>> a >>>> confirming DNA sample could be tested. Many participants have had to >>>> find >>>> someone for testing in order to isolate a mutation before they could >>>> be vetted to a specific ancestor. >>>> >>>> I know that Lesley has struck out in trying to get a DNA sample from >>>> the >>>> line of one of Charles' other sons. I am wondering if it is possible >>>> to trace a line down from John? >>>> >>>> Sue Liedtke >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Don W Kincaid" <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:58 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas >>>> kincaidand >>>> Elizabeth Chielsy >>>> >>>> >>>> I believe Lesley has done an excellent job in documenting the lineage >>>> of >>>> Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley. There >>>> are not >>>> many who are documented as well as this one. One of the other well >>>> documented ones is for Gene Kincaid, #23547 who shows back to Falkirk >>>> Parish >>>> in Scotland like Martyn shows so I understand Sue's apprehension on >>>> vetting >>>> Martyn since his dna does not match with 23547. With the excellent >>>> documentation for Martyn, I believe we should show him as vetted. One >>>> big >>>> reason I believe we should vet Martyn is that there could easily be 2 >>>> lines >>>> of Kincaid's in Falkirk Parish just as we have found 2 different lines >>>> of >>>> Kincaid's living next to each other in the Colonies in several >>>> instances. >>>> If >>>> we did not have another participant showing to Falkirk Parish, would >>>> anyone >>>> have an objection to Martyn's lineage being vetted? I doubt anyone >>>> would, >>>> given the excellent documentation. If vetted, I would not object to >>>> having >>>> a >>>> note stating that dna results have not confirmed Martyn's lineage to >>>> Falkirk >>>> or a similar statement. >>>> >>>> Don, # 1427 >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Sue Liedtke >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:40 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas >>>> kincaidand >>>> Elizabeth Chielsy >>>> >>>> >>>> This is the 2nd call for comments on the post seeking to vet #186057 >>>> to Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly. I have asked that comments be directed to >>>> the paper trail as a separate entity from the DNA as I have a >>>> question as to >>>> the >>>> advisability of vetting a line without a confirming DNA sample from >>>> the furthest ancestor. >>>> >>>> Normally it takes 2 identical samples from the lines of different sons >>>> of >>>> a >>>> given ancestor to prove the DNA of that ancestor. In most cases we can >>>> get >>>> around this because we have identical DNA from other Kincaids whose >>>> ancestors pre-date the given ancestor or could be descended from the >>>> same >>>> ancestor by a different son. In cases where there is an unexpected >>>> significant mutation, that mutation needs to be isolated before the >>>> line >>>> can >>>> be vetted. As an example:49289 has an unexpected mutation to 9 at >>>> marker >>>> 15. >>>> This is a significant mutation as it is used to separate A-2 Kincaids >>>> from >>>> A-1 Kincaids, however no other Kincaid (and there are many >>>> participants) >>>> in >>>> the immediate geographic region has this mutation. #49289 could not be >>>> vetted until #135736 who does not have the mutation could be vetted >>>> to a >>>> common ancestor (note other unvetted lines from this ancestor do not >>>> have >>>> the mutation). >>>> >>>> In the case of #186057 we do not have identical DNA from anyone else >>>> in the >>>> project. While Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly may very well be represented >>>> by >>>> # 186057's DNA, there is also the possibility that an undisclosed >>>> non-Kincaid >>>> paternal event occurred somewhere along the line. This needs to be >>>> ruled >>>> out >>>> with confirming DNA. >>>> >>>> Non the less, it would be of immense value to know if the paper >>>> research >>>> is >>>> sound i.e if the DNA were confirmed could this line be vetted. This >>>> would >>>> facilitate finding a participant from a different son's line to be >>>> tested >>>> for confirming DNA. Please look over the paper trail and comment. >>>> >>>> Sue Liedtke >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Lesley Cains" <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:31 AM >>>> Subject: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaid >>>> and Elizabeth Chielsy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Vetting Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley >>>> Martyn Kincaid DNA kit #186057 >>>> Researcher : Lesley Sharon Cains, mother of Martyn Stuart Kincaid and >>>> ex >>>> wife of Alan John Kincaid >>>> >>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> Martyn Stuart Kincaid 'Living' b.1987, Lilydale,Victoria Australia not >>>> married. >>>> >>>> Proven by; >>>> >>>> Australian birth certificate (original available) for Martyn Stuart >>>> Kincaid; >>>> parents listed as Alan John Kincaid and Lesley Sharon Kincaid nee >>>> Cains. >>>> >>>> Personal knowledge; I know my son is the son of Alan John Kincaid. >>>> ____________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Alan John Kincaid 'Living" b.1957 Carlton Victoria Australia m Lesley >>>> Sharon >>>> Cains in 1986 at Numurkah Victoria Australia (certificate available). >>>> >>>> Son of Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. >>>> >>>> Proven by; >>>> >>>> Australian birth certificate for Alan John Kincaid listing parents as >>>> Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. >>>> >>>> Personal knowledge; I personally know the parents and siblings of Alan >>>> John >>>> Kincaid all of whom acknowledge him as the son of Bertram Langley >>>> Kincaid. >>>> >>>> The parents and 3 of the 4 siblings of Alan John Kincaid are all still >>>> living. >>>> >>>> The siblings of Alan John Kincaid are Robert Charles Kincaid, Karen >>>> Eileen >>>> Kincaid, Helen Jean Kincaid and Heather Kincaid (1963-1963). >>>> _____________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Bertram Langley Kincaid 'Living' b.1930 Daylesford, Victoria Australia >>>> m >>>> Dorothy Dawn Nash 16 October 1955 Camberwell Victoria Australia. >>>> >>>> Son of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters (both >>>> deceased). >>>> >>>> Proven by; >>>> >>>> Australian birth certificate for Bertram Langley Kincaid listing his >>>> parents >>>> as Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters, as confirmed >>>> by Bertram Langley Kincaid who resides in Victoria Australia. >>>> >>>> Australian death certificate's (copies available) for Arthur Charles >>>> Nelson >>>> Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid (nee Waters) listing Bertram Langley >>>> Kincaid >>>> as their son, and also Bertram's siblings John (dec'd), Eileen >>>> (dec'd), Valma and Arthur David. >>>> >>>> Australian Electoral Roll records 1954 showing Bertram Langley Kincaid >>>> living at the home of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita >>>> Kincaid >>>> with his siblings Arthur and John. >>>> >>>> Springvale Victoria Australia crematorium records for Arthur Charles >>>> Nelson >>>> Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid. Website look up; >>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php?page=search&s_res=GO&cid=330&Giv >> en_N >>>> ames=&Surname=kincaid&Surname_ex=&hw_num=100 >>>> >>>> Personal knowledge; I personally knew both parents of Bertram Langley >>>> Kincaid and attended their funeral services. >>>> I personally knew both Valma Jean Kincaid and Arthur David Kincaid >>>> (both >>>> now >>>> deceased) siblings of Bertram Langley Kincaid. >>>> The family also told me of Eileen Hilda Kincaid, sister of Bertram >>>> Langley >>>> Kincaid who married William St Dennis and migrated to the United >>>> States, >>>> her >>>> social security death index ssn 037-20-3410 Rhode Island date of death >>>> August 1976, and California passenger & Crew list showing Eileen St >>>> Denis >>>> & >>>> William St Denis arriving in California 12 Sep 1946, with Eileen on an >>>> Australian passport with notation of her maiden name confirms what the >>>> family have related to me. >>>> Alan John Kincaid also told of Bertram's deceased brother John Charles >>>> Kincaid who died alone following an accident in his home in 1978 as >>>> proven >>>> by his obituary and Springvale Crematorium records. >>>> >>>> ____________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid b. 7 January 1902 Daylesford Victoria >>>> Australia m Sarah Rita Waters 24 March 1922 Mildura Victoria Australia >>>> (certificate available). >>>> >>>> Son of Charles Langley Kincaid and Elizabeth Nelson. >>>> >>>> Proven by; >>>> >>>> Australian birth record #2384 (copy available) for Arthur Charles >>>> Nelson >>>> Kincaid DOB as 7 January 1902 listing his parents as Charles Kincaid >>>> (a >>>> Miner aged 42) and Elizabeth Kincaid, formerly Nelson (aged 42) living >>>> at >>>> Eganstown Victoria, who were married 13 April 1891. Siblings shown on >>>> the >>>> certificate are Grace Cowling Kincaid, Alice Kincaid, Eliza Kincaid, >>>> Clarice >>>> Kincaid and Helena Kincaid (dec'd). >>>> >>>> Australian marriage record #558 (copy available) for Arthur Charles >>>> Nelson >>>> Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters married on 24 March 1922 at St >>>> Margaret's Vicarage Mildura, listing Arthur's father as Charles >>>> Langley Kincaid, a Miner as his father and Elizabeth Nelson as his >>>> mother. >>>> >>>> Australian death record #12575/83 (copy available) for Arthur Charles >>>> Nelson >>>> Kincaid date of death 6 June 1983 at Heatherton Victoria Australia, >>>> retired >>>> aged 81 years and born in Daylesford Victoria. Fathers name showing >>>> as Charles Kincaid and mother as Elizabeth Kincaid (maiden name >>>> Nelson), certified by his wife Sarah (known as Rita) Kincaid. This >>>> certificate also >>>> shows Arthur was 20 years old when he married Sarah Rita Waters in >>>> Mildura >>>> and that he was still married at the time of his death, children >>>> listed as >>>> Arthur aged 61 yrs, Valma aged 59 yrs, Eileen (deceased), John >>>> (deceased), >>>> Bertram aged 53 years. >>>> >>>> Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1924, 1931, 1936, 1937 and >>>> 1949 >>>> detailing his address and family members (available to view on >>>> Ancestry.com). >>>> >>>> An on-line Australian newspaper Archive record detailing the death of >>>> his >>>> sister Clarice Leona Kincaid and recording that her body was identified >>>> by >>>> her brother Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid reads; "Found dead in the >>>> bush, >>>> died from exposure, exhaustion and natural causes (refer to inquest & >>>> newpaper articles), VPRS 24/P Unit 1031 File 92 Clarice Leona Kincaid >>>> died >>>> on or about 28 Dec 1922 from exhaustion during the first stages of >>>> labour. >>>> Body identified by brother - Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid >>>> (stonemason) residing at Victoria park Daylesford. Arthur Angove aged >>>> 16 from Daylesord >>>> was one of those that found her along with Frank Stevens and James >>>> Langdon >>>> who were bird nesting on Angus Hill, on the Cornish Reef". (ref; >>>> >>>> >>> >> http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1871036?searchTerm=clarice+ >> kinc >>>> aid). >>>> >>>> Springvale Victoria Crematorium records showing that he was cremated 8 >>>> June >>>> 1983. >>>> >>>> Personal knowledge; I personally knew Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid >>>> and visited his home with Alan John Kincaid, I also attended his >>>> funeral service. I identified the address' given in the Australian >>>> Electoral Roll's >>>> from my visits to his home, and the earlier address' from when I took >>>> Sarah >>>> Rita Kincaid back To Daylesford and she showed me her old home. Sarah >>>> Rita >>>> Kincaid also took me to her own parents' grave, explaining that Arthur >>>> Charles Nelson Kincaid was a stonemason by trade and made her parents >>>> tombstone and many others in the Kyneton & Daylesford area. Sarah >>>> told me >>>> they had named their son Bertram Langley Kincaid after Arthur's father >>>> Charles Langley Kincaid. >>>> _______________________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Charles Langley Kincaid b.21 Apr 1859 Mt Egerton Victoria Australia m >>>> Elizabeth Nelson 30 April 1891 Daylesford Victoria (certificate >>>> available). >>>> >>>> Son of Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Rae. >>>> >>>> Proven by; >>>> >>>> Australian birth record #154 (copy available) for Charles Langley >>>> Kincaid >>>> DOB as 21 April 1859 at Mount Egerton Victoria, details show father as >>>> Thomas William Kincaid a Miner in aged 36 years and born Cape of Good >>>> Hope, >>>> marriage details on this record for Thomas William Kincaid given as >>>> "1845 >>>> Stepney London", other children "Thomas Kincaid and Alconda Degney >>>> Kincaid". >>>> Mother as Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae, aged 31 years from Waterford >>>> Ireland >>>> and signed by Thomas William Kincaid, father. >>>> >>>> Australian marriage record #4032 (copy available) for Charles Langley >>>> Kincaid and Eliza Nelson 30 April 1891 at the Bible Christian >>>> parsonage Daylesford. This record details Charles aged as 32 years as >>>> son of Thomas >>>> William Kincaid a Miner, and Elizabeth Rae. >>>> >>>> Australian death record #1813 (copy available) for Charles Langley >>>> Kincaid, >>>> a Miner died 28 May 1931 at the District Hospital Daylesford aged 72 >>>> years, >>>> his parents are given as Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Kincaid >>>> formerly Rae. It shows Charles was buried on 30 May 1931 at Daylesford >>>> cemetery and that he was born in Eganstown and had lived in Victoria >>>> his >>>> whole life. His children are listed as Grace 39 years, Alice 38 years, >>>> Myrtle 35 years, Clarice (deceased) and Arthur 29 years. >>>> >>>> Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1914, 1924 and 1928 >>>> detailing his >>>> address and family members. >>>> >>>> Obituary; (1) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Friday, May 29, 1931 FUNERAL >>>> NOTICE >>>> KINCAID -The friends of the late Mr. Charles Langley Kincaid are >>>> respectfully informed that his remains will be interred in the >>>> Dayiesford >>>> Cemetery TOMORROW (Saturday) May 30. The Funeral is appointed to leave >>>> the >>>> mortuary parlour of R. F. Verey at 1.30 pm. R. F. Verey, Funeral >>>> Director. >>>> Phone 245. (2) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Tuesday 2 June, 1931 OBITUARY >>>> CHARLES >>>> LANGLEY KINCAID The death occurred on Thursday morning last, of Mr >>>> Charles >>>> Langley Kincaid, after a long illness, at the age of 72 years. The >>>> late Mr. >>>> Kincaid was born in Eganstown district, and had resided in this >>>> locality >>>> all >>>> his life. For many years he was connected to the mining industry. Mrs. >>>> Kincaid and an adult family of three daughters and one son survive to >>>> mourn >>>> their loss, one daughter having predeceased Mr. Kincaid some years >>>> ago. The >>>> funeral took place on Saturday afternoon, and was largely attended. >>>> The casket was carried by Messrs. M. Dickson, W. Spear, W. Burnett >>>> (sons-in-law), C. Nelson (nephew), A. Dickson and J. Dickson. Rev. S. >>>> D. >>>> Yarrington conducted the service at the graveside, and the funeral >>>> arrangements were in the hands of Mr. R. F. Verey. >>>> >>>> Grave; Grave C of E 4 C 6 In loving memory of Charles Langley Kincaid, >>>> Elizabeth Kincaid, and Grace Cowling Dickson died 18 Feb, 1982. >>>> >>>> The personal knowledge of his grandson Bertram Langley Kincaid, who >>>> has confirmed the above for me. >>>> ______________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa >>>> m >>>> (i) >>>> Elizabeth Catherine Barrett on 18 May 1845 Stepney London (certificate >>>> available). Elizabeth Catherine Barratt died 13 March 1850. This >>>> marriage >>>> produced one child, Thomas Hardie Kincaid b. 16 February 1849 >>>> (certificate >>>> available) Rotherhithe England and died 3 February 1929 at Rotherhithe >>>> London UK. >>>> >>>> Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South >>>> Africa m >>>> (ii) Eliza Rae on 16 Nov 1850 Victoria Australia >>>> >>>> Son of Charles Kincaid and Hillegonda Sophia Row. >>>> >>>> Proven by; >>>> >>>> Beaufort West, South Africa Baptism register on microfilm number 5-39, >>>> "Child Thomas William born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823. >>>> Parents >>>> Charles Kincaid, Hilegonda [sic] Sophia Roow [sic]. Witnesses Joseph >>>> Cleaver, Susanna Frederica Roow [sic], Willem Roow[sic], Anna >>>> Roow[sic]". >>>> (photograph of document ordered from GISA and available November >>>> 2010). >>>> >>>> Beaufort West South Africa Baptism record, born 2 August 1823, >>>> baptised 17 >>>> August 1823 as per the SA Genealogies by Lombard & Hesse, page 277 >>>> (this >>>> record purchased from GISA, Genealogy Institute of South Africa) >>>> and also >>>> provided by contact with Joy Roy (a descendant of Thomas William >>>> Kincaid >>>> and professional researcher), Heather McAllister and Tessa King >>>> (Administrators for Ancestry24.com). >>>> >>>> Details taken from the - UK Marriage record for Thomas William Kincaid >>>> (of >>>> full age, a Mariner Chief Officer - son of Charles Kincaid, a sadler) >>>> to >>>> Elizabeth Catherine Barratt (with consent of parents) on 18 May 1845 >>>> at >>>> St >>>> Thomas' Church Stepney UK, witnessed by William Brown & Sophia Barratt >>>> (copy >>>> available). >>>> >>>> Taken from the - UK Birth record (copy available) of Thomas Hardie >>>> Kincaid >>>> 16 February 1849, father given as Thomas William Kincaid (Master >>>> Mariner) >>>> mother as Elizabeth Catherine Kincaid formerly Barratt. >>>> >>>> Taken from the - Australian Death record #14665 (copy on available) 14 >>>> December 1903 at Leonards Hill Victoria Australia, Thomas William >>>> Kincaid >>>> aged 80 years. His father was recorded as John Kincaid, profession >>>> unknown, >>>> information on this record was detailed as being provided by his son >>>> John >>>> Rae Kincaid. He was buried on 16 December 1903 at Eganstown Public >>>> cemetery, >>>> and shows he had lived 50 years in Victoria. Place of birth given as >>>> Cape >>>> Town, Cape Colony South Africa, married to Eliza Rae (not living). >>>> The children of Thomas William Kincaid are listed as Charles 44 >>>> years, Janet >>>> 42 >>>> years, John 40 years, Margaret 38 years, Annie 36 years, Isabella 34 >>>> years, >>>> Eliza 32 years, Thomas William 30 years and Alconda (deceased). >>>> >>>> The Australian birth records (copies available) for the Children of >>>> Thomas >>>> William Kincaid & Eliza Rae for Charles Langley 1859, John Rae 1863, >>>> Annie >>>> Eliza 1868, Elizabeth 1873, Thomas William 1875 all detailing the >>>> father >>>> and >>>> his place of birth as The cape of Good Hope. >>>> >>>> The birth certificate's for Thomas William Kincaid's children; John >>>> Rae >>>> Kincaid in 1863 details Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae married in >>>> Melbourne 1851. On Annie Eliza's record it details 'Melbourne', on >>>> Elizabeth's as 16 November 1850 and on Thomas' 1875 birth record as >>>> 26 November 1850. >>>> >>>> Australian death record (copy available) for daughter Alconda Kincaid >>>> aged >>>> 14 years 27 May 1870 in Eganstown details her parents as Thomas >>>> William Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid, and that Alconda was born in >>>> Newstead, Melbourne >>>> Victoria Australia. >>>> >>>> The Australian marriage certificate for daughter Janet Hardie Kincaid >>>> (copy >>>> available) 25 October 1887 shows her parents as Thomas William Kincaid >>>> and >>>> Eliza Kincaid nee Rae, on her death record in 1933 (copy available) >>>> her parents were given as John Kincaid (a Miner) and Eliza Kincaid >>>> formerly Rae >>>> as provided by S Brown, authorised agent >>>> >>>> When youngest son Thomas William Kincaid died in 1959 at aged 84 his >>>> parents >>>> were listed as unknown. >>>> >>>> Australian 1903 Electoral Roll showing Thomas William Kincaid living >>>> at Leonards Hill Victoria, occupation Miner. >>>> Australian Rate Books - Mt Franklin Victoria from 1872 - 1902 >>>> >>>> Australian Newspaper Archive - Daylesford Advocate Thursday 17 >>>> December 1903 >>>> - The late Mr Kincaid; The remains of Mr T W Kincaid were interred in >>>> the >>>> Eganstown Public Cemetery yesterday. The funeral started from his late >>>> residence at Leonard's Hill and comprised of mourners in eight >>>> conveyances >>>> and seven horsemen. The bearers were Messers Kramer, Aldridge, >>>> McKidrew (2), >>>> Ladigus and Blackwell, Mr Taylor read the burial service. Messer's >>>> Verey >>>> Bros had charge of the mortuary arrangements. >>>> _____________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (i) Hillegonda Sophia Row on 3 August >>>> 1818 >>>> Cape of Good Hope (Hillegonda born 1800, died 4 February 1831). >>>> >>>> Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (ii) Christina Johanna Marian Sporkman, >>>> widow >>>> of John Herbert 12 October 1846 Cape of Good Hope (copy available). >>>> >>>> Son of John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff >>>> >>>> Proven by; >>>> >>>> Scottish OPR record 487/0010 0356 (copy on available) detailing "John >>>> Kincaid and Margaret Gaff, their son named Charles was born 3 May 1791 >>>> and >>>> baptised 8 May, witness' Thomas Kincaid and John Gibb". >>>> >>>> Website - Old Polmont Church (note - please note that not all details >>>> on >>>> this website are accurate eg Sir John Kincaid given as never married, >>>> he >>>> in >>>> fact married Louisa Frisbee a month before his death). refer >>>> www.polmontold.org.uk/hist1845part06.html >>>> >>>>> From the list of passengers arriving in South Africa on board the >>>>> Ship >>>> 'The >>>> Brilliant' in 1817, Charles Kincaid was part of a group of Scottish >>>> Artisans >>>> organised by Benjamin Moodie. >>>> >>>>> From the Book - British Residents at the Cape 1795-1819, by David >>>>> Phillip >>>> page 222, in part reads - "Kincaid, Charles, saddler single arrived 4 >>>> June >>>> 1817 Table Bay, in Brilliant ex Downs under Moodies direction. 2 >>>> August 1817 >>>> has commenced business (saddle, cap and harness maker). 3 August 1818 >>>> marriage of CK of Falkirk, Stirling aged 27 to Hillegonda Sophia d,o, >>>> Robt. >>>> Row aged 18. 6 June 1819 baptised their son John Robert. 18 March 1821 >>>> baptised of their son Charles Langley". >>>> >>>>> From the National Archives of South Africa - in 1818 'memorials >>>>> received, >>>> Charles Kincaid requesting permission to remain in the Colony. >>>> >>>>> From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid aged 27, >>>> birthplace Falkirk Stirling married at The English Church to >>>> Hillegonda Sophia Row aged 18 born at The Cape on 3 August 1818 as >>>> published in The >>>> Capetown Gazette. >>>> >>>> Marriage certificate (copy available) Charles Kincaid (widower, >>>> occupation >>>> Sadler) married in Paarl South Africa to Christina Johanna Maria >>>> Sporkman >>>> (widow). >>>> >>>> Death certificate #2505 (copy available) Charles Kincaid born in >>>> Scotland, >>>> married died on 5 March 1866. Lists the children of his 2nds wife's >>>> previous marriage and John Robert Kincaid as son with Hillegonda >>>> Sophia. >>>> >>>>> From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid will >>>>> filed >>>> 1866. >>>> >>>>> From the South African Commercial Advisor - (1) 1826, a daughter of >>>>> Mr C >>>> Kincaid baptised Jessy, (2) 1829 a son of Mr Charles Kincaid baptised >>>> Alexander Row, (3) 1831 February 4, Sophia Kincaid wife of Mr C >>>> Kincaid died >>>> aged 30 years and 6 months. >>>> >>>> Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by >>>> Bill Kincaid" >>>> >>>> Reference; pamphlet obtained in full from The National Archives of >>>> South >>>> Africa "The Kincaid Family in South Africa" by JJ Scheepers and >>>> confirmed >>>> by >>>> Leonard Kincaid who resides in South Africa son of Joy Scheepers & >>>> Donald >>>> Kincaid descendants of John Robert Kincaid b.1819 at the Cape of Good >>>> Hope. >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> John Kincaid b.10 June 1762 Polmont Stirlingshire Scotland m Margaret >>>> Gaff >>>> (marriage on OPR's shows 20 Nov 1784 Bothkennar & 16 Dec 1784 as the >>>> Proclamation Polmont for both parties) >>>> >>>> Son of Thomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chiesly (Cheesley) >>>> >>>> Proven by; >>>> >>>> Scottish OPR Baptism record 487/0010 0084 13 June 1762, "Thomas >>>> Kincaid & >>>> Elizabeth Chiesly their son named John was born 10 June and baptised >>>> 13 June, witness' Alexander and Robert Kincaid and John Clark". (Copy >>>> Available) >>>> >>>> Scottish OPR marriage record 473/000010/0260 20th November 1784 >>>> marriage >>>> bans, naming John Kincaid if Dalbeath. "(copy available). >>>> >>>> Falkirk Churchyard Grave 184, John Kincaid death 11 February 1794 aged >>>> 33 >>>> years. >>>> >>>> Reference; book - Mitchell, John Fowler. Monumental inscriptions (pre >>>> 1855) >>>> in East Stirlingshire. Edinburgh: Scottish Genealogy Society, 1972]. >>>> "John Kincaid, 1st son of Thos Kincaid & Eliz Chislie, age 33, at >>>> Carronflats on 11 February 1794; John's wife, Margt Gaff, age 85, on 5 >>>> February 1844; John's 1st son, Thos Kincaid, age 63, at Glasgow on 31 >>>> December 1848; John's youngest son, Alex Kincaid, age 17, having >>>> drowned >>>> by >>>> shipwreck on coast of Durham on 27 January 1806; John's 2nd son, John >>>> Kincaid, 76, at Hastings on 23 April 1862, (having entered the army in >>>> 1809 >>>> & served throughout the Peninsular war with Rifle Brigade, knighted >>>> 1852, >>>> senior exon of HM Royal Bodyguard & for many years government >>>> inspector >>>> of >>>> prisons & factories for Scotland); John's (Margt Gaff) only daughter, >>>> Margt >>>> Kincaid, age 71, widow of the late Peter Hardie, merchant in Leith, on >>>> 6 >>>> October 1863; and John's 3rd son, Charles Kincaid, age 73, at Pearl >>>> Cape >>>> of >>>> Good Hope on 5 March 1866" (Note - Information provided by both Peter >>>> A Kincaid, Canada and also Ann Taylor, nee Kincaid England UK and >>>> confirmed >>>> verbally that this Book available from the National Library of >>>> Australia, >>>> Canberra Australia, copies of relevant extracts pending). >>>> >>>> Reference; made available courtesy of Peter A Kincaid, Canada. >>>> "John Kincaid, son of Thomas Kincaid, farmer, Newlands, as heir to >>>> Alexander >>>> Chiesly, Tenant, Newlands, his grandfather, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in >>>> part >>>> of Bothkennar called Dalbeith, with Ferry Boat & fishing in Carron, & >>>> Teinds, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Chan. Oct. 7. 1788. P.R. 30. 184. >>>> [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1394. >>>> Registered >>>> 20 October 1788]". >>>> "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, as heir to Elizabeth Chiesly, his mother, >>>> seised, >>>> Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry >>>> Boat, and >>>> Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Cl. Con. by himself, Oct. >>>> 18. >>>> 1788. P.R. 30.185. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, >>>> vol. 1, >>>> no. 1395. Registered 20 October 1788]". >>>> "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, gets Resig. ad Rem. Oct. 18. 1788, -of part >>>> of >>>> Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, & Fishing in Carron, par. >>>> Bothkennar; -on Proc. resig. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30. 186. >>>> [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1396. >>>> Registered >>>> 20 October 1788]". >>>> "The Trustees of John Kincaid of Dalbaith, seised, Mar. 22. 1800, -in >>>> an >>>> Oxengate of land of Bothkennar called Dalbaith with the Ferry Boat and >>>> part >>>> of the fishing of the Water of Carron, and Teinds; (&2 Oxengates of >>>> land >>>> of >>>> the lands of Bothkennar in warrandice), par. Bothkennar; -under burden >>>> of >>>> ?50 each to John, Alexander, and Charles Kincaid, and 500 Merks Scots >>>> to >>>> Margaret Kincaid, younger children of the said John Kincaid, &c; -on >>>> Disp. >>>> & >>>> Settlement by the said John Kincaid, & Margaret Gaff, his spouse, >>>> Sept. 6. >>>> 1793. P.R. 36.35. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. >>>> 1, >>>> no. >>>> 3904. Registered 20 May 1800]". >>>> >>>> Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by >>>> Bill Kincaid" >>>> >>>> Reference; Book - "Adventures of The Rifle Brigade" by sibling Sir >>>> John Kincaid detailing his family, father John Kincaid. >>>> ___________________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Thomas Kincaid b. circa 1731 Falkirk Scotland m Elizabeth Chiesly 12 >>>> July >>>> 1761. >>>> >>>> Son of (unknown - possible either of James Kincaid & Janet Simson, or >>>> John >>>> Kincaid & Jean Kincaid) >>>> >>>> Proven by; >>>> >>>> Marriage record - Scottish OPR Marriage Ban 479/00008 00237 10 July >>>> 1761 >>>> Falkirk, and Scottish OPR Marriage proclamation Polmont 487/00002 0016 >>>> (copies available) this record names Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth >>>> Chielsy but >>>> neither of their parents. >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Other resources used; >>>> Ancestry.com record search for BDM records, Census returns, travel >>>> records, >>>> Australian Electoral Rolls. >>>> Ancestry24.com for South African research re BDM's, Wills and >>>> application >>>> to >>>> remain in the Colony. >>>> Ancestry.Co.ZA to view & purchase South African death records. >>>> Scotslands People (www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) record search for OPR >>>> records >>>> re BDM's, Census & Wills. >>>> GISA (Genealogical Institute of South Africa) for South African family >>>> history records. >>>> NAAIRS for South African records re BDM's, Wills and application to >>>> remain >>>> in the Colony etc. >>>> Book - British Residents at The Cape 1795-1819 by David Phillip. >>>> On-Line Book - Extracts of Marriages at The Cape of Good Hope >>>> 1806-1821. >>>> On-Line Book - Extracts of Baptisms at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821 >>>> 192.com for UK contacts. >>>> Springvale Crematorium Records for confirming Australian deaths. >>>> The Australian National Archives. >>>> The Australian National Library. >>>> The Victorian Government Public Records Office. >>>> The Victorian Registry of Birth, Deaths & Marriages. >>>> The Daylesford Family History Society. >>>> The Australian WW2 Nominal Roll. >>>> The Kincaid family living in Australia. >>>> Trove - Australian newspapers on line. >>>> London newspaper archives on line. >>>> Edinburgh newspaper archives on line. >>>> The Genealogical Society of South Africa historical newspapers on >>>> line. Google. >>>> >>>> Note - Australia does not have census returns as these are not >>>> archived after the government has collated the data it requires. >>>> >>>> >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> __ >>>> >>>> Footnote's - >>>> >>>> John Kincaid & Margaret Gaff had 5 children; >>>> Son Thomas, a Merchant baptised 30 October 1785, died 31 December >>>> 1848. Married Isabella Balloch 17 January 1818 and produced 5 sons >>>> and 5 daughters >>>> per the OPR records. OPR & BDM records show that 4 of the sons died >>>> without >>>> marrying, and John living in Lancashire unmarried aged 60 yrs in 1881. >>>> Son John Kincaid baptised 29 July 1787, died 23 April 1862. Married >>>> Louisa >>>> Frisbee 19 March 1862, no children. >>>> Son Alexander christened 7 June 1789, died in a shipwreck 27 January >>>> 1806. >>>> Never married, no children. >>>> Son Charles as detailed above in vetting. >>>> Daughter Margaret christened 22 July 1795, died 6 October 1863. >>>> Married Peter Hardie 8 March 1811 and produced 4 sons and 1 daughter. >>>> Both her son's Thomas Kincaid Hardie and John Hardie travelled to >>>> Australia in search >>>> of gold. Thomas married Janet Hoyle in Victoria 1848, returning to the >>>> UK >>>> to >>>> 'live off his own means' as a 'retired Australian Squatter'. John >>>> married >>>> Elizabeth Hoyle in Victoria Australia 1841, this couple also returned >>>> to >>>> the >>>> UK. >>>> >>>> Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisly's son Alexander b.1764 married Jean >>>> Clark. This couple had 6 children, their son Thomas b.1796 was >>>> 'Captain >>>> Thomas Kincaid - Shipmaster' who married Ann Henderson. >>>> Two of Thomas & Ann's sons died overseas - Alexander b.1839 died 1892 >>>> in >>>> Buenos Ayres and James b.1903 died in 1903 Patagonia Argentina. Their >>>> 2nd >>>> eldest of their son's , John George Kincaid born in 1840 founded J G >>>> Kincaid Shipping in Inverclyde. John G Kincaid married Margaret >>>> Grierson, >>>> their eldest son Thomas Lennox Kincaid b.1877 travelled to Australia >>>> settling in NSW. He married there in 1936 and died in December 1940, >>>> (His >>>> death certificate is available). His wife's son by her 1st marriage, >>>> Hilton >>>> Grenville Marcuso who had links to the notorious Kings Cross criminal >>>> underworld, took the Kincaid surname, and died in NSW Australia in >>>> 1975. >>>> >>>> Hillegonda Sophia Row, wife of Charles Kincaid - was born at The Cape >>>> of >>>> Good Hope in 1800 and dies at aged 31 on 4 February 1831 as listed in >>>> the >>>> South African Commercial Adviser. >>>> Hillegonda was the daughter of Englishman Robert Row and Helena >>>> Wilhelma >>>> Aspeling. Helena & Robert married at The Cape on 14 April 1800, she >>>> was >>>> the >>>> widow of Lambrecht Van der Woord and had two children by him (Johanna >>>> Louise >>>> and Jan Christian). >>>> Helena and Robert had 3 other children; >>>> Susannah Frederika Row 1802 - 1831. Susannah married Joseph Cleaver >>>> (soap >>>> manufacturer) in 1823 at Beaufort West and this couple were witness' >>>> to the >>>> marriage of Hillegonda & Charles Kincaid's son Thomas William >>>> Kincaid's baptism at the Dutch Reformed Church in Beaufort West August >>>> 1823. They had >>>> one child, a daughter Ann born in 1824 and died in 1825. Joseph >>>> Cleaver >>>> died in 1824. >>>> Johanna Margaretha Row 1802-1848. Johanna married Samuel Mollett in >>>> 1834. >>>> Robert James Row 1809-1839. >>>> Hillegonda's mother was Hillegonda Kotze also born at The Cape of Good >>>> Hope >>>> as was her mother before her. It was Hillegonda Rows Gr Gr >>>> grandparents that >>>> came to The Cape from Germany and The Nederland's, and her grandfather >>>> Erik >>>> Aspeling from Sweden. >>>> >>>> Charles Kincaid & Hillegonda Row's 1st born son was John Robert >>>> Kincaid >>>> born >>>> 1819. He married Frances Dorothea Fison 10th July 1846, and this >>>> couple >>>> had >>>> six children; >>>> Charles John Kincaid 5 Jan 1848 >>>> Thomas Henrik Herbert Kincaid 20 Apr 1851 - 29 June 1923 (married >>>> Sarah Maria Holmes, and had six children, see below) >>>> Dorothea Christina Kincaid 11 Mar 1853 married Richard Walton >>>> Alexander Frederick Kincaid 10 Apr 1855 >>>> Ellen Elizabeth Kincaid 18 Jan 1857 >>>> Elizabeth Harriette Kincaid 21 Mar 1860 >>>> >>>> Thomas Hendrik Herbert and Sarah Maria Holmes went on to have six >>>> children; >>>> Gertrude Frances Kincaid 16 Jul 1884 >>>> Percy Frederick Kincaid 11 Nov 1886 - 22 May 1967 married (1) Alice >>>> Maud >>>> Poggenpoel, 2 children John b 15 May 1926 and Maud b 28 Sep 1914 (2) >>>> Iris >>>> Alexandria Morkel, one son Charles Morkel Kincaid b 22 Dec 1932. >>>> (Charles >>>> married Maria VanSchalkwyk and had 2 sons, John 15 Jan 1963 and Paul >>>> in 1965. >>>> Leonard Thomas Kincaid 25 Jan 1888 - 1965, married Charlotte Augusta >>>> Gerhardt. This couple had 3 children; Gwendoline 28 Sep 1916 - 1956, >>>> Roland >>>> Kincaid b.1920 and Donald Kincaid 16 Aug 1929. Donald married Joy >>>> Scheepers >>>> and they had 3 children; Leonard, Gary & Mark Kincaid. >>>> Mildred Constance Kincaid 10 Aug 1891 >>>> Charles Henry Kincaid 24 Sep 1894, married Enid Audrey Holmes (Enid >>>> was >>>> born >>>> in Rockhampton Qld 4 May 1901) >>>> Gwendoline Jessie Holmes Kincaid 31 Oct 1897. >>>> >>>> The information re John Robert Kincaid and his descendants became >>>> available >>>> from a NAAIRS document 'The Kincaid family in South Africa' and a list >>>> of >>>> Kincaid births and marriages purchased from GISA. Leonard Kincaid >>>> (son of >>>> Donald and Joy - see 3 above) who still resides in South Africa, has >>>> confirmed all of the above for me also advising he has 2 sons, Mark >>>> Douglas >>>> Kincaid and Luke Richard Kincaid who also reside in South Africa. >>>> >>>> Thomas Hardie Kincaid born 16 Feb 1849 to Thomas William

The last of the results for 190139 have been returned from the lab. He matches the Group A Apparent Ancestral Values at all 67 markers except for marker 26 (DYS 460). Where he has a 12 instead of the AAV value of 11, which puts him in A-1b. This is quite a surprise as the participant believes descent from James Gillespie/Mary Tritt. Vetted descendents of James G do not have this variance. They are in A-1a Fayette. Since this is a significant mutation, in order to prove descent from James G, the mutation needs to be isolated downline from James G. through additional testing and iron-clad paperwork. Sue Liedtke