-----Original Message----- From: Barbara Van Hout Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Kincaid Genealogical Historiography The 'Kyncaid' or 'Kyncade' spelling is also found in the older records at www.google.com/books. -----Original Message----- From: Barbara Van Hout Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Kincaid Genealogical Historiography The Google books website gives access to some very old records when you enter "Kincaid of that Ilk". www.google.com/books I have browsed these records, but haven't put anything in chronological order, nor have I read through all of the records. Barbara -----Original Message----- From: Peter A. Kincaid Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:36 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Kincaid Genealogical Historiography I am not able to give a good sourced errata for Dr. Herbert Clarke Kincaid's (hereafter H.C.K.) paper now, but may do one sometime for kyncades.org in the myth section. However, since the paper is out there now I thought I would give a quick running commentary based on documentation I have. The documentation will have to follow on the website at a future date. In 1238/9 the lands of Kincaid were granted to William son of Arthur son of Galbrait not William Galbraith. The latter is a surname while the former may well be a ethnic identity. There is no indication that there were lands called Galbraith. A good part of the Kincaid lands were conveyed to others over the next 40 years. Some remained with the heirs of Wiliam son of Arthur son of Galbrait. There is nothing to say that the Galbrait here was Gillespic Galbraith. Just like Simon the Fleming may have no connection to Robert the Fleming there may have been no connection between Arthur and Gillespic. Regardless of who owned the Kincaid lands at the beginning of the 1300s, the earliest located person bearing the Kincaid surname was in 1425. In between a lot of people had been forfeited of their lands by treason and wars in Scotland so there is nothing to say the Laird of Kincaid in 1425 was descended in any way from those that held the lands in 1300. It is clear that William son of Arthur son of Galbrait held his lands directly of the Earls of Lennox but the Kincaids held their lands of the Hamiltons of Buthernock who held of the Earls of Lennox. By H.C.K's reasoning the Hamiltons of Buthernock would be first in line to be heirs of William son of Arthur son of Galbraith before the Kincaids. There is no evidence of a Francis Kincaid or a Francis Galbraith at the beginning of the 1300s. H.C.K. is making Sir William Francis (i.e. the Frank or Frenchman) who helped in the capture of Edinburgh castle a Kincaid. If he was his name was William not Francis. Francis is his ethnic origin. The point of 1/4 of the lands of Kincaid being parted with about 1350 seems to be made up. The lands of Kincaid had been broken up into quarters a hundred years earlier. Donald de Kyncade of 1464/5 was not Laird of Kincaid. He was junior to Robert de Kyncade de Craglokkard (Craiglockhart) who, if he was not then Laird of Kincaid, was the one from which the later Lairds of Kincaid descended. Donald was of the Lairds of Kincaid line but it is uncertain who his father was. His only son we can be certain of is Robert. The Laird of Kincaid in 1486 was William Kyncade of that Ilk. The David de Kincaid who was a witness to the Ballinkere charter was not Laird of Kincaid but he was probably his younger brother. William Kincaid of that Ilk had no legitimate children. His heir was his brother Patrick whose daughter, Elizabeth, later became Elizabeth Kincaid of that Ilk. She married Thomas Kincaid of the Kincaids of Coates. He was certainly not her cousin as it was then unlawful to wed your cousins. You needed special (and very expensive authorization) from the Pope to marry someone who shared anything less than a great great grandfather and that included relatives of spouses. I see no indication that the John Kincaid who got the lands of Boneside was a brother of William Kincaid of that Ilk (fl 1470s). Timeline wise he fits in the previous generation. Edward Kincaid was not a son of Thomas Kincaid of that Ilk. He was almost certainly a brother. The evidence is that Margaret Seton was a later wife of Thomas Kincaid of that Ilk who had married Elizabeth Kincaid, daughter and heir of Patrick Kincaid of that Ilk. Margaret Seton was the daughter of Sir Alexander Seton and brother of Ninian Seton of the Setons of Tullibody. I don't see any evidence that Thomas Kincaid of that Ilk had sons Malcolm and George. I believe the Malcolm and George that H.C.K. was referring to were the grandsons of Thomas Kincaid of that Ilk. It is also not certain if he had a son Richard. There was a Richard Kincaid and he could be Thoams' son but he could also have been a relative of Thomas' first wife Elizabeth Kincaid, daughter of Patrick Kincaid of that Ilk. I have a copy of the Will of Isabel Kincaid wife of Thomas Peebles and see no evidence that she was a daughter of the first James Kincaid of that Ilk. There is nothing to suggest that there was a James Kincaid of that Ilk who died about 1584. The evidence was that James Kincaid of that Ilk, son of Elizabeth Kincaid of that Ilk and Thomas Kincaid of that Ilk, was born about 1512 and died in 1604. He was succeeded by his son James Kincaid of that Ilk who appears to have been born in the late 1530s and who subsequently married Christian Leslie, daughter of George Leslie, Earl of Rothes. He died in 1606. H.C.K. has as sons of James Kincaid of that Ilk and Christian Leslie as James, Robert, William, Patrick, and John. James and John can be proven, but it looks like he made up Robert, William and Patrick. T here was another son which can be proven and that is Andrew. There is no evidence that the Margaret Kincaid who married Alexander Johnston of the Kincaids of that Ilk. He was of Dalderse and there were Kincaids in that immediate area which family she more likely a member of. The only spouse I have seen for Stephen Kincaid was Cristian Abercrumbie. I don't know where he got that Margaret Hamilton, wife of James Kincaid of that Ilk, son of James Kincaid of that Ilk and Christian Leslie, was the daughter of a Kincaid. Her father was Sir Robert Hamilton of Goslington. The Lang charter no. 2407 relates to James Kincaid of Coates, not James Kincaid of that Ilk. There is no indication that the Agnes Kincaid and Andrew Johnston that are also mentioned in charter no. 2407 is a daughter of James Kincaid of that Ilk. The James Kincaid of that Ilk who died at the end of the 1600s did have a son Alexander but there is nothing to indicate, other than H.C.K, that he was a pharmacist in Edinburgh, nor do we know from Scottish records reviewed to date, any children of Alexander Kincaid, son of James Kincaid of that Ilk. While an son Alexander has recently been found, a brother David has not. The Alexander Kincaid, writer in Edinburgh and his son Alexander Kincaid, King's stationer and Lord Provost of Edinburgh, are of the Kincaids of Grange. I leave the American Kincaids to other researchers on this list to correct. It seems to me that a fundamental error by H.C.K. is that he assumed that if a Kincaid is mentioned in a charter with another Kincaid then they were siblings. If a Kincaid was parting with some land then it was a practice for near heirs to consent to or witness the selling. However, the near heirs could have been 2nd or 3rd cousins. It was also a practice for neighbours to witness the conveying. So in addition to Kincaids being near heirs they could also have been neighbours. So unless specifically stated one can't suggest a close relationship unless a pattern emerges over several documents. I think you can see from above how much of a mess the early Kincaid history is. Sprinkled in among a bunch of waste is legitimate records which made things look more than it was. Best wishes! Peter A. Kincaid Fredericton, NB, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Kincaid Genealogical Historiography > It seems to me that it is not helpful for this document > to be up on the Internet without an attached errata. > Since he was a doctor who was a President of > a genealogical association the assumption is that it is a > professional document. However, the first part is a mess. > He clearly pulled names out of several Scottish sources > (and by all means not a significant number of sources) and > made some Lairds of Kincaid that never were Lairds > of Kincaid. > > While previous work can be useful sometimes old stuff > can be to risky to keep using. As an analogy one just > has to look at how many kids cribs, toys, seats, etc. that > were in great shape, but that we have had to throw away > because of their danger to our kids. Likewise, there is > no use in bringing out H.C. Kincaid's paper without > stripping it of its false parts. > > Peter > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Norman Kincaide" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:59 AM > Subject: [KINCAID] Kincaid Genealogical Historiography > > >> Dear Kincaid Listers, >> >> I have created a new file: Kincaid Genealogical Historiography at >> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kincaide/Kincaid%20Genealogical%20Historiography/ >> >> I have added two documents: an introduction and Dr. Herbert Clark >> Kincaid's Kincaid Genealogy, since there had been some interest in that >> document recently I have posted his work under Kincaid Genealogical >> Historiography. >> >> Sincerely >> Norman Kincaide To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message