I don't know but that would have been Miami County, OH where he is listed in the 1850 Census below.  Prior to that he was in Indiana where some of his children were born.  In 1830 he was teaching school in Lancaster County, PA.  Miami County is directly north of Montgomery County, OH.  From the letter it appears he prefers where he is in Montgomery County to his experience in Miami County eight years prior. Sincerely Norman Kincaide ----- Original Message ---- From: "Utahn1@aol.com" <Utahn1@aol.com> To: kincaid@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:55:49 AM Subject: [KINCAID] Lewis Kincaid Norman, Why does he say that they escaped from the Miami Bottom? Do you  have any clue as to what might have been going on there at that time? Ruth Cherecwich In a message dated 10/21/2008 2:38:16 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,  norman.kincaide@yahoo.com writes: Here is  some more information on Lewis Kincaid from a letter in the possession of  Charles (Chuck) Kincaid from Lewis Kincaid. Montgomery County, Ohio,  March 11th, 1861 Dear old friends: I have not heard from you or my  native neighborhood, for a good while; but I have thought about you very  often.  I suppose you do not practice penmanship extensively of late but  I think Ewing & others might keep me posted in the vicissitudes of your  vicinity. I have but little worth relating.  We have reason to be  very thankful for the health with which we have been blessed, during eight  years that have passed since we escaped from the Miami Bottom.  Rebecca  continues weakly, however.  I have spent another 6 months term in  the school room during which I earned $220.00.  I am ready to be a farmer  again, when the weather becomes favorable.  We have our little property  clear now, I having lifted my last Note, few days ago.  Thomas taught 6  1/2 months at $33 1/3 per month.  We are all at home at present. .  . Here is Lewis Kincaid's household in 1860: Montgomery  County 1860 Lewis Kincaid, [119921] age 54, born PA, school  teacher, value $1500.00, $375.00, Jefferson Township,      Montgomery County, OH. USFC, p.  17. 1860 Rebecca Kincaid, age 54, born PA, Jefferson Township,  Montgomery County, OH. USFC, p. 17. 1860 Margaret Kincaid, [119921]  age 22, born PA, Jefferson Township, Montgomery County, OH. USFC, p.  1.7 1860 Thomas Kincaid, [119921] age 21, born PA, farmer, Jefferson  Township, Montgomery County, OH. USFC, p.      17. 1860 Samuel Kincaid, [119921] age 20, born IN,  farmer, Jefferson Township, Montgomery County, OH. USFC, p.      17. 1860 Mary A. Kincaid, [119921] age 20, born IN,  house work, Jefferson Township, Montgomery County, OH.      USFC, p.  17. 1860 James.. W. Kincaid, [119921] age 16, born OH, farm laborer,  Jefferson Township, Montgomery County, OH.      USFC, p. 17. Sincerely Norman  Kincaide ----- Original Message ---- From: Norman  Kincaide <norman.kincaide@yahoo.com> To:  kincaid@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:11:26 AM Subject:  Re: [KINCAID] Vetting Charles Vernon Kincaid to John Kincaid ofSadsbury  Township I can provide some information on Lewis Kincaid.  Lewis  is here in the 1850 Census: Miami County 1850 Lewis  Kincaid, [119921] age 45, born PA, school teacher, value $300.00, Bethel  Township, Miami County, OH. USFC, p. 117. 1850 Rebecca Kincaid, age  43, born PA, Bethel Township, Miami County, OH. USFC, p.  117. 1850 Margaret Kincaid, [119921] age 14, born PA, Bethel Township,  Miami County, OH. USFC, p. 117. 1850 Thomas Kincaid, [119921] age 13,  born PA, Bethel Township, Miami County, OH. USFC, p. 117. 1850 Samuel  Kincaid, [119921] age 11, born IN, Bethel Township, Miami County, OH. USFC, p.  117. 1850 Mary A.. Kincaid, [119921] age 11, born IN, Bethel Township,  Miami County, OH. USFC, p. 117. 1850 James W. Kincaid, [119921] age 7,  born OH, Bethel Township, Miami County, OH. USFC, p. 117. I believe he  is the son of Samuel Kincaid, Jr.  who I believe is here: Clinton  County 1850 Samuel Kinkade, [119921] age 70, born PA, Richland  Township, Clinton County, OH.  USFC, p. Could be the son of  Samuel Kinkead [119921] (1736-1810) of Fawn Township, York County,  PA. 1850 Deborah Kinkade, age 64, born PA, Richland Township, Clinton  County, OH.  USFC, p.. 1850 Emma Wicoff, age 22, born OH,  Richland Township, Clinton County, OH.  USFC, p. Here is Samuel  Kincaid taxed in 1800 in York County, PA. 1800    Samuel  Kincaid [119921] taxed in Fawn Townhip, York County, PA for 180 acres, rate 2,  valuation 360, 3 horses, rate 25,  valuation 75, 4 cows, Rate 6,  valuation 24, amount 459, tax 2.32. York County Tax Record Roll 5236, York  County, PA Archives. Here are Samuel Kincaid and Samuel Jr. in  1801 1801    Samuel Kincaid [119921] taxed in Fawn  Township, York County, PA for 150 acres, rate41/2, valuation 675, 2 horses,  rate 45,  valuation 90, 3 cows, rate 12, valuation 36, amount 459,  tax 2.32.  York County Tax Record Roll 5236, York County, PA  Archives. 1801    Samuel Kincaid [119921] taxed in Fawn  Township, York County, PA as a single man at $1.00.  York County Tax  Record Roll 5236,  York County, PA Archives. Here they are in  1804 which shows Samuel Jr. taxed as a married man.. 1804 Samuel  Kincade, Sr. [119921] taxed in Fawn Township, York County, PA for 150 acres,  rate 7, valuation 1050, 2 horses, rate 35,  valuation 70, 4 cows,  rate 12, valuation 48, amount 1168, tax 3..04. York County Tax Record  Roll 5236, York County, PA Archives. 1804 Samuel Kincade [119921]  taxed in Fawn Township, York County, PA for 2 horses, rate 35, valuation 70, 2  cows, rate 12, valuation 24,  amount 94, tax 0.25.  York County  Tax Record Roll 5236, York County, PA Archives. Chuck also has in his  possesion letters written by Lewis Kincaid to his cousin John McGlaughlin in  York County, PA. Sincerely Norman  Kincaide ----- Original Message ---- From: Sue Liedtke  <seleaml@actionnet.net> To: kincaid@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday,  October 10, 2008 9:26:36 AM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting Charles Vernon  Kincaid to John Kincaid ofSadsbury Township I do hope some of you will  look over this post. Chuck, I don't doubt that you have ample proof on  the linkages but I am a bit confused in places and hope you can clear up  some questions I have particularly concerning the linkage from James R..  to James/Barbara Kendall. The 1850 census does not give relationship and  the age of 30 is off by 4 years for a James born 1816. It isn't unusual  for ages to be off but as this is the only firm linkage to Barbara it is a  problem. The rest of the proofs in this section more rightly belong in the  section for James R/Anna Cave. Do you have anything else that would help  show that this is the same James as in 1830? The 1812 marriage info on  James and Barbara Kendall given in the next linkage helps but then I am  confused as to who all were in the 1810 census for James as it looks like  a single family given the female ages. If just the males were there it  would fit better with a couple of bachelor brothers. Does the 1820 census  shed any light on the beginnings of the James/Barbara Kendall family? Are  there 2 James Kincaids in Baltimore in 1820 or just the one? It  looks like the James on High St with David and then Wallace is the son of Samuel as they are also listed in Samuel's will. Is there anything that  shows that the High St. James is the same one that married Barbara  Kendall? Whose son was Lewis, the grandson mentioned in Samuel's will?  Does he disappear or is there a connection that with others mentioned that  would bolster the connection. James R Kincaid took his son to visit  friends in Fawn Grove. Is this the Fawn Township that Samuel lived in? I  don't know the geography of this region so don't know if you are talking  about the same Fawn and don't know where Bryansville-Delta region  is. Sue  Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From:  "Don W. Kincaid" <donwkincaid@cox.net> To: "Kincaid Rootsweb List"  <kincaid@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 7:05  PM Subject: [KINCAID] Vetting Charles Vernon Kincaid to John Kincaid  ofSadsbury Township Charles Vernon Kincaid (119921, Gp  A Set 1b) track to John Kinkead of  Sadsbury Township. 1st Generation: Charles Vernon  Kincaid, Born Baltimore, MD, 1930 Son of Charles Vernon Kincaid Sr. and  Lois Mildred Miller Proven by: 1. Birth certificate: Baltimore  City Health Dept lists my father as Charles Vernon Kincaid and mother  as Lois (Miller) Kincaid 2. Life knowledge: I knew my parents and their  siblings and they acknowledged me as their son and/or  nephew 2nd Generation: Charles Vernon Kincaid (Sr), Born  Baltimore, MD, October 29, 1882 and died December 2, 1950. Son  of Frank Wallace Kincaid and Mary Delphine Baer Proven by: 1.  “Kincaid Family Bible” listing births, deaths, and marriages of  Kincaid/Baer family from 1855 onward.. Charles’s birthday given as  October 29, 1882, in my possession. 2. 1900 Federal Census of  Baltimore city lists Charles as a member of the Frank Kincaid family.  Members listed are: Frank Kincaid, husband, age 44; Delphine, wife, age  45; Charles V, son, age 17; James W, son, age 14;  George C, son, age  12; Sophie A, daughter age 9 and Carroll L, son age 6, Also lists  Frank’s mother being born in England. This is accurate since his  mother, Annie Cave was, in fact, born in England. The census also lists  all family members being born in MD except for Delphine who was born in  Delta PA, and George and Sophie who were born in Bryansville PA, (near  Fawn) 3. Marriage Certificate of Charles V. Kincaid and Lois M. Miller  in Towson, MD, on September 12, 1926. Witnesses were Mr. and Mrs. Elmer  Parks... In my possession. 4. Life knowledge: I knew my father’s  sister and two brothers and they acknowledged him as their  sibling 5. Baltimore Sun obituary listing Charles’s numerous  accomplishments and civic works over the past 40 years and identified  Charles V. Kincaid as his son and Lois Kincaid as his wife 6.  Charles V. Kincaid Certificate of Death, Baltimore city lists birth and  death dates as above. 3rd Generation: Frank  Wallace Kincaid, Born Baltimore, MD,  January 25, 1856, Died February  22, 1908 Son of James R. Kincaid and Anna Cave Proven  by: 1. “Kincaid Family Bible” listing births, deaths, marriages of the  Kincaid family from 1855 onward. Frank’s birthday given as January 25,  1856 2. 1860 Federal Census of Baltimore City, p 706, lists Frank as  one of three children of James R. Kincaid , age 40, and wife Anna  (erroneously spelled Emma) living in Baltimore, MD, 18th ward. Others  listed in family were wife, Anna age 37; daughter Clara age 7;  son Frank, age 4 and daughter Ida age 1. Kincaid misspelled as  Kincaide. 3. Baltimore Directory for 1860 lists Frank W. Kincaid as a  son of James R. Kincaid family living at 653 W. Baltimore St. in 18th  ward Baltimore, Md (Files of Baltimore Directories at Maryland  Historical Society, Baltimore, MD) 4. Marriage Certificate: Frank W.  Kincaid of Baltimore and Mary D. Baer of Bryansville, York County, PA,  were joined in marriage the 13th day of January, 1881, in  Bryansville, PA, (near Fawn Grove) by Joseph D... Smith, minister.  Witnesses were Clara V. Kincaid (Frank’s sister) and Charles S. Baer  (Dellies brother). Copy in my files. 5. Certified Baltimore City  Certificate of Death of Frank W. Kincaid with birth and death dates as  above 6. Clipping saved from Baltimore newspaper announcing the death  of Frank W. Kincaid and plans for burial in Slate Ridge Cemetery in  Delta, PA. Frank W. and Mary D. (who died May 16, 1903) Kincaid were  buried in Slate Ridge Cemetery, (near Fawn Grove) along with Frank’s  unmarried sister, Ida V, and Frank and Dellie’s son, James Wallace who  died age 19 of TB on Oct 24 1904  Clipping also lists Frank’s  surviving children as: Charles V. George C, Sophie A. and Carroll  L. 7. Oil paintings of Frank W. and Mary D. Kincaid on their wedding  day, January 13, 1881. In my possession... 4th  Generation James R. Kincaid, Born Baltimore, MD, August 20, 1816; died  November 21, 1887 Son of James Kincaid and Barbara  Kendall Proven by: 1. U. S. Federal Census of 1850 Baltimore  City, MD, lists Barbara (Barbay) Kingcade (James Kincaid’s widow) and  with her son James R. Kincaid (age 30) running a boarding house with 18  boarders at 20 Pearl St., Baltimore, MD 2. Photographs of James R.  Kincaid and wife, Anna Cave Kincaid, as an elderly couple, circa 1885,  in my possession 3. Gravestone in Loudon Park Cemetery, Baltimore, MD,  gives James R. Kincaid’ s date of birth as August 20, 1816, died  November 21, 1887. Wife Anna Cave Kincaid, age 75, died February 22,  1898.  Also burial plots of two unnamed young children, but one is  noted as “child of James R. Kincaid” (Personal visit to Loudon Park  Cemetery. Baltimore, Md) 4. Baltimore Directories from 1852-1887  list J. R. Kincaid and family living at various residences in Baltimore  during these years. Baltimore City Directories file, Maryland Historical Society, Baltimore Md) 5. Baltimore City  Marriage Licenses Issued (1851-1865),pg.330, lists James Kincaid  and Anna Cave married November 24, 1852, Hall of Records, Annapolis  Md. 6. Certificate of Death, Baltimore City Health Department,  documents  J. R. Kincaid’s birth and death dates, August 20, 1816,  died November 21, 1887 (Certified Copy, Baltimore City Health  Department, Certificate of Death) 5th Generation James  Kincaid, Born Fawn Township, PA abt. 1776; died September 7, 1832 Son  of Samuel Kincaid and 1) Agness ?, and 2) Nancy ? Proven by: 1.  James Kincaid was listed in the Sept. 1810 will of his father, Samuel  Kincaid of Fawn, as one of Samuel’s eleven children, Family listed in  will were: wife Nancy, sons John, James, Samuel, David, Wallace,  Joseph, and Thomas and daughters Margaret Vance, Jenny McLaughlin,  Nancy and heirs of his daughter, Jean McLeary (dec’d). Also mentioned as  an heir was Samuel’s grandson, Lewis Kincaid. (Will Book M, pg. 274, York  County Heritage Trust files, York, PA) 2. James Kincaid, first  shown on tax lists, taxed $1.00, in Fawn Township, York County, PA, as  a single man in 1797. (York County Tax Record Roll 5226, York County, PA, archives..) Thus, James must have been 21 years in 1797 providing  us with an approximate birth year of 1776. 3. James Kincaid  arrived in Baltimore in 1803 and lived at 133 High St. Baltimore  City Directory of 1804 lists James Kincaid as a school teacher living at  153 High St., Baltimore, MD. (Baltimore Directories file, Maryland  Historical Society, Baltimore, MD) 4. James Kincaid is listed in  the 1804 Baltimore City Directory with this brother David Kincaid at  153 High St., Baltimore, MD. David’s occupation was given as drayman.  David listed with James at that address in 1805, 1806, and 1807.(Baltimore  City Directories file, Maryland Historical Society, Baltimore,  MD) 5. U.S. Federal Census of 1810 lists James Kincaid living in Wards  2-6, Baltimore, one male 26-45, one male 16-25, one female over 45, one  female 16-25, two females under 10. (USFC, pg 268) 6. Baltimore  City Directory of 1813 shows James Kincaid and brother Wallace Kincaid  as grocers at 153 High St., Baltimore, MD. Wallace remained at that address  with James until 1819. (Baltimore Directories file, Maryland Historical  Society, Baltimore, MD) 7. U. S. Federal Census of 1830 shows James  living in Ward 4 of Baltimore City. One male 50-60, one male 5-10, one  male 10-15, one female 50-60, one female 20-30, one female 15-20, one  female 10-15, and one female 5-10. (USFC, pg. 189) 8. September 28,  1812, James Kincaid married Barbara Kendall at the 1st  Methodist Episcopal Church, Light Street, Baltimore. Wedding performed  by Rev. George Roberts. (1st Methodist Episcopal Church records,  Maryland Historical Society records, Baltimore, MD) 9. Death of  James Kincaid announced in the Baltimore American newspaper of September  15, 1832, “James Kincaid, long a merchant of Baltimore died of the cholera  on September 7.”(Diehlman File of Baltimore Newspapers, Maryland  Historical Society, Baltimore, Md) James Kincaid was buried in the Old  North Burial ground in Baltimore. He and his wife Barbara were  reinterred in Greenmount Cemetery in Baltimore when the Old North  Burial ground was disestablished to make way for the expanding downtown of  Baltimore. James was reinterred in the burial plot of his daughter, Ann  (Kincaid) Sanders. (Personal Visit to Greenmount  Cemetery) 10.  My father, Charles V. Kincaid, Sr., his brothers  and sister often visited the Fawn Grove-Bryansville-Delta region. He  explained to me that he went back to Fawn with his father, Frank W...  Kincaid, who in turn had gone every summer with his father James  R.. Kincaid to visit friends (McLaughlins, Clarkes, Watsons, etc.) from the  “old neighborhood.” That is why my father took me there. 6th  Generation Samuel Kincaid, born abt. 1736, in Sadsbury, PA, died  October 1810, in Fawn Township, York County, PA. Son of John Kinkead  and Mary ? Proven by: 1. 1749-Warrant, dated June 6, 1749,  granted to Alexander McCanless for land in Fawn Township Lancaster Co..  Pennsylvania.( Pennsylvania State Archives  RG-17, Records of  the Land Office, WARRANT REGISTERS 1733-1757, Surnames beginning with “M”).  This warrant was filed before York County was formed August 14, 1749,  and thus is listed in Lancaster County warrants. 2. 1756-Samuel  Kinkead/Kincaid first taxed in Sadsbury Township, PA, as a single man  in 1756. A single free man was taxed upon the age of 21. This being the  case, Samuel would have been born about 1735-1736.  (Chester  County Archives and Records Service (CCAR) West Chester, Pa. Courtesy  Norman Kincaide) 3. 1757-Samuel Kinkead/Kincaid taxed in Sadsbury as a  single man (courtesy Norman Kincaide.  CCAR) 4. 1758-Samuel  Kinkead/Kincaid taxed in Sadsbury as a married man (courtesy  Norman Kincaide. CCAR) 5. 1760-Samuel Kinkead/Kincaid taxed in  Sadsbury as a married man (courtesy Norman Kincaide. CCAR) 6.  1762-Samuel Kinkead/Kincaid, Charles Kincaid, James Kincaid at wedding of James Sinkler and Mary Patterson at the Bradford Monthly meeting,  Chester, PA, October 21, 1762 (courtesy Norman Kincaide.  CCAR) 7. 1763-Samuel Kinkead/Kincaid, taxed in Sadsbury(Norman  Kincaide. CCAR) 8. 1765-Samuel Kinkead/Kincaid, taxed in West Caln  Township, Chester County, PA, on 100 acres (courtesy Norman Kincaide.  CCAR) 9. 1767-Samuel Kinkead taxed in West Caln in 1767, 1768, 1769,  1771 and 1772.  (courtesy Norman Kincaide. CCAR) 10. 1771-  John Kinkead died. Will proven November 1771 provided for his wife Mary,  left the farm to son Charles, and twenty pounds to sons David, John,  Samuel, James. Also left sums to his sons-in-laws. (courtesy Norman  Kincaide. CCAR) 11. 1772-Samuel Kincaid bought 271 acres called Poplar  Quarter from Archibald White in Fawn Township (deed not yet  recovered). 12. 1779-Samuel Kincaid listed on roll of York County  militia, Capt. William Gray’s company.(YCHT. Courtesy Mr John Heisey).  1779-Samuel Kincaid taxed in Fawn until 1810 (York Co. Archives York  Pa.) 13. 1790-U.S. Federal Census shows Samuel Kincaid with three males  over 16, five males under 16, and 4 females. This indicates that Samuel  Kincaid’s 7 sons were still at home in 1790, if all males listed were  his sons. (York Co  Archives, York Pa) 14. 1797-Samuel Kincaid  taxed in Fawn for 150 acres. (CCAR) 15. 1810- Samuel Kincaid died  October 1810. Will lists his children as heirs and left Poplar Quarter  to sons Joseph and Thomas. Details of will described in 5th generation  of this vetting. 16. 1813-Survey of Poplar Quarter. “Joseph and  Thomas Kincaid situate in Fawn Township in the county of York  containing as above 271 acres & 61 perches and allowance, of  land originally surveyed by William Matthews, late DS, on the 21st day of  the 1st month 1771 for Archibald White in pursuance of a warrant which  was granted to Alexander McCanless (Poplar Quarter) bearing the date of  6th of June  1749. And now, on the 16th day of June 1813, the same  has been calculated, examined, and found to be correct and at the  request of the present owners, Joseph and Thomas Kincaid, the same is  returned for confirmation. Adjacent land owners: Joseph Ross, Barrens,  William Smilee, Barrens, Barrens, Thomas Brannon,. Per Jacob Spangler,  DS. To  Andrew Porter Esq. Surveyor General,  Harrisburg.” (Pennsylvania State Archives, RG-17, Records of the Land  Office ,COPIEDSURVEYS, 1681-1912, Vol B-9, pg 12.) 17.. 1813  Patent.-Joseph and Thomas Kincaid (119921) patented 271 acres, 61 perches  July 10, 1813, warrantee, Alexander McCanless (Poplar Quarter) June 6, 1749  Fawn Township York County Pa.( Pennsylvania State Archives RG-17,  Records of the Land Office, PATENT INDEX, H Series (H1 to H20),  1809-1823, Surnames beginning with K, pg 189, Patent Book Vol 9,  pg 196. Courtesy Norman Kincaide) 7th Generation John  Kinkead born about 1700,likely in Ireland, died November 1771 in Sadsbury  Township, Chester County, PA. Married Mary ?. Son of unknown  parents. Proven by: 1.There were no Kinkead/Kincaids in Chester  County until 1728, when John Kinkead and James were taxed as married  men living in Sadsbury Township. Since they were over 21, they were  likely born about 1700. Place of birth is not known at this time, but  other information indicates Northern Ireland as a likely place (courtesy of  Norman Kincaid) 2..John and James Kinkead taxed in Sadsbury in  1730,1732,1734,1735,1736, and 1737. (Courtesy of Norman  Kincaide) 3.John Kinkead received warrant for 200 acres of land on  February 4, 1734 and James received warrant for 150 acres on February  9, 1734. (Courtesy of Norman Kincaide) 4.James Kinkead, brother of  John Kinkead, disappeared from Chester County Tax lists  after 1737. 5.James Kinkead moved to Barbados where he died in 1752.  (Courtesy of Norman Kincaide) 6.John Kinkead, John Kinkead, Jr.,  Samuel Kinkead, Robert Kinkead (carpenter) and Robert Kinkead (weaver)  pledged to support Rev. Boyd’s salary at Upper Octorara  Presbyterian Church on Sept 1 1758. (courtesy of Norman Kincaide  ) 7.Samuel Kinkead first shows up on the Tax List in Sadsbury Township  in 1756; this indicates his birth was 1735 to 1736. (courtesy of Norman  Kincaide ) 8.Samuel Kinkead is taxed in West Caln in 1765, 1766, 1767,  1768, 1769, 1771, and 1772, but not after 1772. West Caln Township was  formed in 1744 and consisted of land adjacent to John Kinkead’s land in  Sadsbury Township. (Futhey and Cope, History of Chester County, PA, p.  168) 9.Samuel Kinkead was named in the administration of the estate of  Andrew Kinkead (deceased) in 1769. Andrew Kinkead, formerly of Taghboyn  Parish, County Donegal, Ireland, but lately of Newcastle Hundred on the  Delaware died intestate, on the ship JUPITER, docked in the Delaware  River, leaving considerable estate. Samuel was nearest of kin to Andrew  Kinkead but was unable to undertake administration of Andrew’s estate and renounced it in favor of James Kinkead, next nearest of kin. (PCH  Will Book H, p. 86, File 1652) 10.This James Kinkead, a  watchmaker, came from Strabane, County Tyrone in Ireland in 1765. He  was taxed in Sadsbury in 1765. James’s relationship to John Kinkead and  family is not known, but it is probably very close. He is not John  Kinkead’s youngest son, James. His business was noted in the newspaper  as, “James Kinkead, clock and watchmaker of Strabane in Ireland, but  late of Sadsbury Township. Chester County, Pennsylvania, now follows  his business at Emmanuel Rouse’s Clock and Watchmaker in Front Street near  the drawbridge, Philadelphia.” (Philadelphia Gazette March 14,  1765) 11.Samuel Kinkead was mentioned in his father, John Kinkead’s  will. (Will written November 19, 1771, proven November 1771). Heirs  documented therein were: wife, Mary, sons John, David, Samuel, Charles,  James, and four sons-in-laws: Adam Hope (married to John Kinkead’s  daughter Agnes), Thomas Kilpatrick (married ? ), John Simril (married to  John Kinkead’s daughter Mary), and Josiah Crawford (married ?). (Courtesy  of Norman Kincaide) Charles  Kincaid ____________________________________________________________ Click  here to find the rental car that fits your needs. 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Here is some more information on Lewis Kincaid from a letter in the possession of Charles (Chuck) Kincaid from Lewis Kincaid. Montgomery County, Ohio, March 11th, 1861 Dear old friends: I have not heard from you or my native neighborhood, for a good while; but I have thought about you very often.  I suppose you do not practice penmanship extensively of late but I think Ewing & others might keep me posted in the vicissitudes of your vicinity. I have but little worth relating.  We have reason to be very thankful for the health with which we have been blessed, during eight years that have passed since we escaped from the Miami Bottom.  Rebecca continues weakly, however.  I have spent another 6 months term in the school room during which I earned $220.00.  I am ready to be a farmer again, when the weather becomes favorable.  We have our little property clear now, I having lifted my last Note, few days ago.  Thomas taught 6 1/2 months at $33 1/3 per month.  We are all at home at present. . . Here is Lewis Kincaid's household in 1860: Montgomery County 1860 Lewis Kincaid, [119921] age 54, born PA, school teacher, value $1500.00, $375.00, Jefferson Township,             Montgomery County, OH. USFC, p. 17. 1860 Rebecca Kincaid, age 54, born PA, Jefferson Township, Montgomery County, OH. USFC, p. 17. 1860 Margaret Kincaid, [119921] age 22, born PA, Jefferson Township, Montgomery County, OH. USFC, p. 1.7 1860 Thomas Kincaid, [119921] age 21, born PA, farmer, Jefferson Township, Montgomery County, OH. USFC, p.         17. 1860 Samuel Kincaid, [119921] age 20, born IN, farmer, Jefferson Township, Montgomery County, OH. USFC, p.         17. 1860 Mary A. Kincaid, [119921] age 20, born IN, house work, Jefferson Township, Montgomery County, OH.                 USFC, p. 17. 1860 James. W. Kincaid, [119921] age 16, born OH, farm laborer, Jefferson Township, Montgomery County, OH.         USFC, p. 17. Sincerely Norman Kincaide ----- Original Message ---- From: Norman Kincaide <norman.kincaide@yahoo.com> To: kincaid@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:11:26 AM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting Charles Vernon Kincaid to John Kincaid ofSadsbury Township I can provide some information on Lewis Kincaid.  Lewis is here in the 1850 Census: Miami County 1850 Lewis  Kincaid, [119921] age 45, born PA, school teacher, value $300.00, Bethel Township, Miami County, OH. USFC, p. 117. 1850 Rebecca Kincaid, age 43, born PA, Bethel Township, Miami County, OH. USFC, p. 117. 1850 Margaret Kincaid, [119921] age 14, born PA, Bethel Township, Miami County, OH. USFC, p. 117. 1850 Thomas Kincaid, [119921] age 13, born PA, Bethel Township, Miami County, OH. USFC, p. 117. 1850 Samuel Kincaid, [119921] age 11, born IN, Bethel Township, Miami County, OH. USFC, p. 117. 1850 Mary A.. Kincaid, [119921] age 11, born IN, Bethel Township, Miami County, OH. USFC, p. 117. 1850 James W. Kincaid, [119921] age 7, born OH, Bethel Township, Miami County, OH. USFC, p. 117. I believe he is the son of Samuel Kincaid, Jr.  who I believe is here: Clinton County 1850 Samuel Kinkade, [119921] age 70, born PA, Richland Township, Clinton County, OH.  USFC, p.  Could be the son of Samuel Kinkead [119921] (1736-1810) of Fawn Township, York County, PA. 1850 Deborah Kinkade, age 64, born PA, Richland Township, Clinton County, OH.  USFC, p.. 1850 Emma Wicoff, age 22, born OH, Richland Township, Clinton County, OH.  USFC, p. Here is Samuel Kincaid taxed in 1800 in York County, PA. 1800    Samuel Kincaid [119921] taxed in Fawn Townhip, York County, PA for 180 acres, rate 2, valuation 360, 3 horses, rate 25,  valuation 75, 4 cows, Rate 6, valuation 24, amount 459, tax 2.32. York County Tax Record Roll 5236, York County, PA Archives. Here are Samuel Kincaid and Samuel Jr. in 1801 1801    Samuel Kincaid [119921] taxed in Fawn Township, York County, PA for 150 acres, rate41/2, valuation 675, 2 horses, rate 45,  valuation 90, 3 cows, rate 12, valuation 36, amount 459, tax 2.32.  York County Tax Record Roll 5236, York County, PA Archives. 1801    Samuel Kincaid [119921] taxed in Fawn Township, York County, PA as a single man at $1.00.  York County Tax Record Roll 5236,  York County, PA Archives. Here they are in 1804 which shows Samuel Jr. taxed as a married man.. 1804 Samuel Kincade, Sr. [119921] taxed in Fawn Township, York County, PA for 150 acres, rate 7, valuation 1050, 2 horses, rate 35,  valuation 70, 4 cows, rate 12, valuation 48, amount 1168, tax 3..04. York County Tax Record Roll 5236, York County, PA Archives. 1804 Samuel Kincade [119921] taxed in Fawn Township, York County, PA for 2 horses, rate 35, valuation 70, 2 cows, rate 12, valuation 24,  amount 94, tax 0.25.  York County Tax Record Roll 5236, York County, PA Archives. Chuck also has in his possesion letters written by Lewis Kincaid to his cousin John McGlaughlin in York County, PA.   Sincerely Norman Kincaide ----- Original Message ---- From: Sue Liedtke <seleaml@actionnet.net> To: kincaid@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:26:36 AM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting Charles Vernon Kincaid to John Kincaid ofSadsbury Township I do hope some of you will look over this post. Chuck, I don't doubt that you have ample proof on the linkages but I am a bit confused in places and hope you can clear up some questions I have particularly concerning the linkage from James R.. to James/Barbara Kendall. The 1850 census does not give relationship and the age of 30 is off by 4 years for a James born 1816. It isn't unusual for ages to be off but as this is the only firm linkage to Barbara it is a problem. The rest of the proofs in this section more rightly belong in the section for James R/Anna Cave. Do you have anything else that would help show that this is the same James as in 1830? The 1812 marriage info on James and Barbara Kendall given in the next linkage helps but then I am confused as to who all were in the 1810 census for James as it looks like a single family given the female ages. If just the males were there it would fit better with a couple of bachelor brothers. Does the 1820 census shed any light on the beginnings of the James/Barbara Kendall family? Are there 2 James Kincaids in Baltimore in 1820 or just the one? It looks like the James on High St with David and then Wallace is the son of Samuel as they are also listed in Samuel's will. Is there anything that shows that the High St. James is the same one that married Barbara Kendall? Whose son was Lewis, the grandson mentioned in Samuel's will? Does he disappear or is there a connection that with others mentioned that would bolster the connection. James R Kincaid took his son to visit friends in Fawn Grove. Is this the Fawn Township that Samuel lived in? I don't know the geography of this region so don't know if you are talking about the same Fawn and don't know where Bryansville-Delta region is. Sue  Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don W. Kincaid" <donwkincaid@cox.net> To: "Kincaid Rootsweb List" <kincaid@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 7:05 PM Subject: [KINCAID] Vetting Charles Vernon Kincaid to John Kincaid ofSadsbury Township Charles Vernon Kincaid (119921, Gp A Set 1b) track to John Kinkead of Sadsbury Township. 1st Generation: Charles Vernon Kincaid, Born Baltimore, MD, 1930 Son of Charles Vernon Kincaid Sr. and Lois Mildred Miller Proven by: 1. Birth certificate: Baltimore City Health Dept lists my father as Charles Vernon Kincaid and mother as Lois (Miller) Kincaid 2. Life knowledge: I knew my parents and their siblings and they acknowledged me as their son and/or nephew 2nd Generation: Charles Vernon Kincaid (Sr), Born Baltimore, MD, October 29, 1882 and died December 2, 1950. Son of Frank Wallace Kincaid and Mary Delphine Baer Proven by: 1. “Kincaid Family Bible” listing births, deaths, and marriages of Kincaid/Baer family from 1855 onward. Charles’s birthday given as October 29, 1882, in my possession. 2. 1900 Federal Census of Baltimore city lists Charles as a member of the Frank Kincaid family. Members listed are: Frank Kincaid, husband, age 44; Delphine, wife, age 45; Charles V, son, age 17; James W, son, age 14;  George C, son, age 12; Sophie A, daughter age 9 and Carroll L, son age 6, Also lists Frank’s mother being born in England. This is accurate since his mother, Annie Cave was, in fact, born in England. The census also lists all family members being born in MD except for Delphine who was born in Delta PA, and George and Sophie who were born in Bryansville PA, (near Fawn) 3. Marriage Certificate of Charles V. Kincaid and Lois M. Miller in Towson, MD, on September 12, 1926. Witnesses were Mr. and Mrs. Elmer Parks... In my possession. 4. Life knowledge: I knew my father’s sister and two brothers and they acknowledged him as their sibling 5. Baltimore Sun obituary listing Charles’s numerous accomplishments and civic works over the past 40 years and identified Charles V. Kincaid as his son and Lois Kincaid as his wife 6. Charles V. Kincaid Certificate of Death, Baltimore city lists birth and death dates as above. 3rd Generation: Frank Wallace Kincaid, Born Baltimore, MD,  January 25, 1856, Died February 22, 1908 Son of James R. Kincaid and Anna Cave Proven by: 1. “Kincaid Family Bible” listing births, deaths, marriages of the Kincaid family from 1855 onward. Frank’s birthday given as January 25, 1856 2. 1860 Federal Census of Baltimore City, p 706, lists Frank as one of three children of James R. Kincaid , age 40, and wife Anna (erroneously spelled Emma) living in Baltimore, MD, 18th ward. Others listed in family were wife, Anna age 37; daughter Clara age 7; son Frank, age 4 and daughter Ida age 1. Kincaid misspelled as Kincaide. 3. Baltimore Directory for 1860 lists Frank W. Kincaid as a son of James R. Kincaid family living at 653 W. Baltimore St. in 18th ward Baltimore, Md (Files of Baltimore Directories at Maryland Historical Society, Baltimore, MD) 4. Marriage Certificate: Frank W. Kincaid of Baltimore and Mary D. Baer of Bryansville, York County, PA, were joined in marriage the 13th day of January, 1881, in Bryansville, PA, (near Fawn Grove) by Joseph D... Smith, minister. Witnesses were Clara V. Kincaid (Frank’s sister) and Charles S. Baer (Dellies brother). Copy in my files. 5. Certified Baltimore City Certificate of Death of Frank W. Kincaid with birth and death dates as above 6. Clipping saved from Baltimore newspaper announcing the death of Frank W. Kincaid and plans for burial in Slate Ridge Cemetery in Delta, PA. Frank W. and Mary D. (who died May 16, 1903) Kincaid were buried in Slate Ridge Cemetery, (near Fawn Grove) along with Frank’s unmarried sister, Ida V, and Frank and Dellie’s son, James Wallace who died age 19 of TB on Oct 24 1904  Clipping also lists Frank’s surviving children as: Charles V. George C, Sophie A. and Carroll L. 7. Oil paintings of Frank W. and Mary D. Kincaid on their wedding day, January 13, 1881. In my possession... 4th Generation James R. Kincaid, Born Baltimore, MD, August 20, 1816; died November 21, 1887 Son of James Kincaid and Barbara Kendall Proven by: 1. U. S. Federal Census of 1850 Baltimore City, MD, lists Barbara (Barbay) Kingcade (James Kincaid’s widow) and with her son James R. Kincaid (age 30) running a boarding house with 18 boarders at 20 Pearl St., Baltimore, MD 2. Photographs of James R. Kincaid and wife, Anna Cave Kincaid, as an elderly couple, circa 1885, in my possession 3. Gravestone in Loudon Park Cemetery, Baltimore, MD, gives James R. Kincaid’s date of birth as August 20, 1816, died November 21, 1887. Wife Anna Cave Kincaid, age 75, died February 22, 1898.  Also burial plots of two unnamed young children, but one is noted as “child of James R. Kincaid” (Personal visit to Loudon Park Cemetery. Baltimore, Md) 4. Baltimore Directories from 1852-1887 list J. R. Kincaid and family living at various residences in Baltimore during these years. Baltimore City Directories file, Maryland Historical Society, Baltimore Md) 5. Baltimore City Marriage Licenses Issued (1851-1865),pg.330, lists James Kincaid and Anna Cave married November 24, 1852, Hall of Records, Annapolis Md. 6. Certificate of Death, Baltimore City Health Department, documents  J. R. Kincaid’s birth and death dates, August 20, 1816, died November 21, 1887 (Certified Copy, Baltimore City Health Department, Certificate of Death) 5th Generation James Kincaid, Born Fawn Township, PA abt. 1776; died September 7, 1832 Son of Samuel Kincaid and 1) Agness ?, and 2) Nancy ? Proven by: 1. James Kincaid was listed in the Sept. 1810 will of his father, Samuel Kincaid of Fawn, as one of Samuel’s eleven children, Family listed in will were: wife Nancy, sons John, James, Samuel, David, Wallace, Joseph, and Thomas and daughters Margaret Vance, Jenny McLaughlin, Nancy and heirs of his daughter, Jean McLeary (dec’d). Also mentioned as an heir was Samuel’s grandson, Lewis Kincaid. (Will Book M, pg. 274, York County Heritage Trust files, York, PA) 2. James Kincaid, first shown on tax lists, taxed $1.00, in Fawn Township, York County, PA, as a single man in 1797. (York County Tax Record Roll 5226, York County, PA, archives..) Thus, James must have been 21 years in 1797 providing us with an approximate birth year of 1776. 3. James Kincaid arrived in Baltimore in 1803 and lived at 133 High St. Baltimore City Directory of 1804 lists James Kincaid as a school teacher living at 153 High St., Baltimore, MD. (Baltimore Directories file, Maryland Historical Society, Baltimore, MD) 4. James Kincaid is listed in the 1804 Baltimore City Directory with this brother David Kincaid at 153 High St., Baltimore, MD. David’s occupation was given as drayman. David listed with James at that address in 1805, 1806, and 1807.(Baltimore City Directories file, Maryland Historical Society, Baltimore, MD) 5. U.S. Federal Census of 1810 lists James Kincaid living in Wards 2-6, Baltimore, one male 26-45, one male 16-25, one female over 45, one female 16-25, two females under 10. (USFC, pg 268) 6. Baltimore City Directory of 1813 shows James Kincaid and brother Wallace Kincaid as grocers at 153 High St., Baltimore, MD. Wallace remained at that address with James until 1819. (Baltimore Directories file, Maryland Historical Society, Baltimore, MD) 7. U. S. Federal Census of 1830 shows James living in Ward 4 of Baltimore City. One male 50-60, one male 5-10, one male 10-15, one female 50-60, one female 20-30, one female 15-20, one female 10-15, and one female 5-10. (USFC, pg. 189) 8. September 28, 1812, James Kincaid married Barbara Kendall at the 1st Methodist Episcopal Church, Light Street, Baltimore. Wedding performed by Rev. George Roberts. (1st Methodist Episcopal Church records, Maryland Historical Society records, Baltimore, MD) 9. Death of James Kincaid announced in the Baltimore American newspaper of September 15, 1832, “James Kincaid, long a merchant of Baltimore died of the cholera on September 7.”(Diehlman File of Baltimore Newspapers, Maryland Historical Society, Baltimore, Md) James Kincaid was buried in the Old North Burial ground in Baltimore. He and his wife Barbara were reinterred in Greenmount Cemetery in Baltimore when the Old North Burial ground was disestablished to make way for the expanding downtown of Baltimore. James was reinterred in the burial plot of his daughter, Ann (Kincaid) Sanders. (Personal Visit to Greenmount Cemetery) 10.  My father, Charles V. Kincaid, Sr., his brothers and sister often visited the Fawn Grove-Bryansville-Delta region. He explained to me that he went back to Fawn with his father, Frank W.. Kincaid, who in turn had gone every summer with his father James R.. Kincaid to visit friends (McLaughlins, Clarkes, Watsons, etc.) from the “old neighborhood.” That is why my father took me there. 6th Generation Samuel Kincaid, born abt. 1736, in Sadsbury, PA, died October 1810, in Fawn Township, York County, PA. Son of John Kinkead and Mary ? Proven by: 1. 1749-Warrant, dated June 6, 1749, granted to Alexander McCanless for land in Fawn Township Lancaster Co.. Pennsylvania.( Pennsylvania State Archives  RG-17, Records of the Land Office, WARRANT REGISTERS 1733-1757, Surnames beginning with “M”). This warrant was filed before York County was formed August 14, 1749, and thus is listed in Lancaster County warrants. 2. 1756-Samuel Kinkead/Kincaid first taxed in Sadsbury Township, PA, as a single man in 1756. A single free man was taxed upon the age of 21. This being the case, Samuel would have been born about 1735-1736.  (Chester County Archives and Records Service (CCAR) West Chester, Pa. Courtesy Norman Kincaide) 3. 1757-Samuel Kinkead/Kincaid taxed in Sadsbury as a single man (courtesy Norman Kincaide.  CCAR) 4. 1758-Samuel Kinkead/Kincaid taxed in Sadsbury as a married man (courtesy Norman Kincaide. CCAR) 5. 1760-Samuel Kinkead/Kincaid taxed in Sadsbury as a married man (courtesy Norman Kincaide. CCAR) 6. 1762-Samuel Kinkead/Kincaid, Charles Kincaid, James Kincaid at wedding of James Sinkler and Mary Patterson at the Bradford Monthly meeting, Chester, PA, October 21, 1762 (courtesy Norman Kincaide. CCAR) 7. 1763-Samuel Kinkead/Kincaid, taxed in Sadsbury(Norman Kincaide. CCAR) 8. 1765-Samuel Kinkead/Kincaid, taxed in West Caln Township, Chester County, PA, on 100 acres (courtesy Norman Kincaide. CCAR) 9. 1767-Samuel Kinkead taxed in West Caln in 1767, 1768, 1769, 1771 and 1772.  (courtesy Norman Kincaide. CCAR) 10. 1771- John Kinkead died. Will proven November 1771 provided for his wife Mary, left the farm to son Charles, and twenty pounds to sons David, John, Samuel, James. Also left sums to his sons-in-laws. (courtesy Norman Kincaide. CCAR) 11. 1772-Samuel Kincaid bought 271 acres called Poplar Quarter from Archibald White in Fawn Township (deed not yet recovered). 12. 1779-Samuel Kincaid listed on roll of York County militia, Capt. William Gray’s company.(YCHT. Courtesy Mr John Heisey). 1779-Samuel Kincaid taxed in Fawn until 1810 (York Co. Archives York Pa.) 13. 1790-U.S. Federal Census shows Samuel Kincaid with three males over 16, five males under 16, and 4 females. This indicates that Samuel Kincaid’s 7 sons were still at home in 1790, if all males listed were his sons. (York Co  Archives, York Pa) 14. 1797-Samuel Kincaid taxed in Fawn for 150 acres. (CCAR) 15. 1810- Samuel Kincaid died October 1810. Will lists his children as heirs and left Poplar Quarter to sons Joseph and Thomas. Details of will described in 5th generation of this vetting. 16. 1813-Survey of Poplar Quarter. “Joseph and Thomas Kincaid situate in Fawn Township in the county of York containing as above 271 acres & 61 perches and allowance, of land originally surveyed by William Matthews, late DS, on the 21st day of the 1st month 1771 for Archibald White in pursuance of a warrant which was granted to Alexander McCanless (Poplar Quarter) bearing the date of 6th of June  1749. And now, on the 16th day of June 1813, the same has been calculated, examined, and found to be correct and at the request of the present owners, Joseph and Thomas Kincaid, the same is returned for confirmation. Adjacent land owners: Joseph Ross, Barrens, William Smilee, Barrens, Barrens, Thomas Brannon,. Per Jacob Spangler, DS. To  Andrew Porter Esq. Surveyor General, Harrisburg.” (Pennsylvania State Archives, RG-17, Records of the Land Office ,COPIEDSURVEYS, 1681-1912, Vol B-9, pg 12.) 17.. 1813 Patent.-Joseph and Thomas Kincaid (119921) patented 271 acres, 61 perches July 10, 1813, warrantee, Alexander McCanless (Poplar Quarter) June 6, 1749 Fawn Township York County Pa.( Pennsylvania State Archives RG-17, Records of the Land Office, PATENT INDEX, H Series (H1 to H20), 1809-1823, Surnames beginning with K, pg 189, Patent Book Vol 9, pg 196. Courtesy Norman Kincaide) 7th Generation John Kinkead born about 1700,likely in Ireland, died November 1771 in Sadsbury Township, Chester County, PA. Married Mary ?. Son of unknown parents. Proven by: 1.There were no Kinkead/Kincaids in Chester County until 1728, when John Kinkead and James were taxed as married men living in Sadsbury Township. Since they were over 21, they were likely born about 1700. Place of birth is not known at this time, but other information indicates Northern Ireland as a likely place (courtesy of Norman Kincaid) 2..John and James Kinkead taxed in Sadsbury in 1730,1732,1734,1735,1736, and 1737. (Courtesy of Norman Kincaide) 3.John Kinkead received warrant for 200 acres of land on February 4, 1734 and James received warrant for 150 acres on February 9, 1734. (Courtesy of Norman Kincaide) 4.James Kinkead, brother of John Kinkead, disappeared from Chester County Tax lists after 1737. 5.James Kinkead moved to Barbados where he died in 1752. (Courtesy of Norman Kincaide) 6.John Kinkead, John Kinkead, Jr., Samuel Kinkead, Robert Kinkead (carpenter) and Robert Kinkead (weaver) pledged to support Rev. Boyd’s salary at Upper Octorara Presbyterian Church on Sept 1 1758. (courtesy of Norman Kincaide ) 7.Samuel Kinkead first shows up on the Tax List in Sadsbury Township in 1756; this indicates his birth was 1735 to 1736. (courtesy of Norman Kincaide ) 8.Samuel Kinkead is taxed in West Caln in 1765, 1766, 1767, 1768, 1769, 1771, and 1772, but not after 1772. West Caln Township was formed in 1744 and consisted of land adjacent to John Kinkead’s land in Sadsbury Township. (Futhey and Cope, History of Chester County, PA, p. 168) 9.Samuel Kinkead was named in the administration of the estate of Andrew Kinkead (deceased) in 1769. Andrew Kinkead, formerly of Taghboyn Parish, County Donegal, Ireland, but lately of Newcastle Hundred on the Delaware died intestate, on the ship JUPITER, docked in the Delaware River, leaving considerable estate. Samuel was nearest of kin to Andrew Kinkead but was unable to undertake administration of Andrew’s estate and renounced it in favor of James Kinkead, next nearest of kin. (PCH Will Book H, p. 86, File 1652) 10.This James Kinkead, a watchmaker, came from Strabane, County Tyrone in Ireland in 1765. He was taxed in Sadsbury in 1765. James’s relationship to John Kinkead and family is not known, but it is probably very close. He is not John Kinkead’s youngest son, James. His business was noted in the newspaper as, “James Kinkead, clock and watchmaker of Strabane in Ireland, but late of Sadsbury Township. Chester County, Pennsylvania, now follows his business at Emmanuel Rouse’s Clock and Watchmaker in Front Street near the drawbridge, Philadelphia.” (Philadelphia Gazette March 14, 1765) 11.Samuel Kinkead was mentioned in his father, John Kinkead’s will. (Will written November 19, 1771, proven November 1771). Heirs documented therein were: wife, Mary, sons John, David, Samuel, Charles, James, and four sons-in-laws: Adam Hope (married to John Kinkead’s daughter Agnes), Thomas Kilpatrick (married ? ), John Simril (married to John Kinkead’s daughter Mary), and Josiah Crawford (married ?). (Courtesy of Norman Kincaide) Charles  Kincaid ____________________________________________________________ Click here to find the rental car that fits your needs. To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls-------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email toKINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotesin the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message       To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

17719 is in A-2b. He has 2 significant mutations that 129770, who is A-1a does not have. They are in totally different branches of the Group A family. Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: <lewisjo@junct.com> To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] 1875 Murder of Wm J Kincade > Teresa, > My gggrand grandfather, Mordecai, lived in Chillicothe, where he had my > great grandfather, John Albert Kincade. Mordecai had a brother named > Francis, but I don't know alot about him, he was born 1852 in Indiana. Is > your Francis kin to Calvin/ Telitha? > Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robt Kincade > #129770 > > >> I have a photo of this William Jackson Kincaid (Kingcade) sent to me by a >> researcher. He looks quite a bit like a photo of my husband's gg >> grandfather >> Francis Marion Kincaid. Chariton Co, MO, where the murder took place, and >> where William J. Kincaid farmed, is just one county over from Francis M. >> Kincaid in Livingston, Co, MO. I have often wondered if there is a >> connection. >> >> Teresa Kincaid >> DNA 17719 >> A2 b2 >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <lewisjo@junct.com> >> To: <KINCAID@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:05 AM >> Subject: [KINCAID] 1875 Murder of Wm J Kincade >> >> >>> Here's an interesting article in a St. Louis newspaper on the murder of >>> a >>> Wm J. Kincade, thought someone might be able to use this. The url will >>> allow you to view other Missouri newspapers online. >>> >>> http://newspapers.umsystem.edu/Default/Skins/Missouri/Client.asp?Skin=Missouri&AW=1224421018368&AppName=2 >>> >>> >>> Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robert R Kincade, #129770 >>> >>> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: >>> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: >> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Teresa, My gggrand grandfather, Mordecai, lived in Chillicothe, where he had my great grandfather, John Albert Kincade. Mordecai had a brother named Francis, but I don't know alot about him, he was born 1852 in Indiana. Is your Francis kin to Calvin/ Telitha? Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robt Kincade #129770 > I have a photo of this William Jackson Kincaid (Kingcade) sent to me by a > researcher. He looks quite a bit like a photo of my husband's gg > grandfather > Francis Marion Kincaid. Chariton Co, MO, where the murder took place, and > where William J. Kincaid farmed, is just one county over from Francis M. > Kincaid in Livingston, Co, MO. I have often wondered if there is a > connection. > > Teresa Kincaid > DNA 17719 > A2 b2 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <lewisjo@junct.com> > To: <KINCAID@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:05 AM > Subject: [KINCAID] 1875 Murder of Wm J Kincade > > >> Here's an interesting article in a St. Louis newspaper on the murder of >> a >> Wm J. Kincade, thought someone might be able to use this. The url will >> allow you to view other Missouri newspapers online. >> >> http://newspapers.umsystem.edu/Default/Skins/Missouri/Client.asp?Skin=Missouri&AW=1224421018368&AppName=2 >> >> >> Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robert R Kincade, #129770 >> >> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have a photo of this William Jackson Kincaid (Kingcade) sent to me by a researcher. He looks quite a bit like a photo of my husband's gg grandfather Francis Marion Kincaid. Chariton Co, MO, where the murder took place, and where William J. Kincaid farmed, is just one county over from Francis M. Kincaid in Livingston, Co, MO. I have often wondered if there is a connection. Teresa Kincaid DNA 17719 A2 b2 ----- Original Message ----- From: <lewisjo@junct.com> To: <KINCAID@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:05 AM Subject: [KINCAID] 1875 Murder of Wm J Kincade > Here's an interesting article in a St. Louis newspaper on the murder of a > Wm J. Kincade, thought someone might be able to use this. The url will > allow you to view other Missouri newspapers online. > > http://newspapers.umsystem.edu/Default/Skins/Missouri/Client.asp?Skin=Missouri&AW=1224421018368&AppName=2 > > > Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robert R Kincade, #129770 > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Sorry, you'll have to type Kincade in the various spellings individually, found over 220 items with the spelling of Kincaid. Many articles are from the mid-1800's. Kelly > Here's an interesting article in a St. Louis newspaper on the murder of a > Wm J. Kincade, thought someone might be able to use this. The url will > allow you to view other Missouri newspapers online. > > http://newspapers.umsystem.edu/Default/Skins/Missouri/Client.asp?Skin=Missouri&AW=1224421018368&AppName=2 > > > Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robert R Kincade, #129770 > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Here's an interesting article in a St. Louis newspaper on the murder of a Wm J. Kincade, thought someone might be able to use this. The url will allow you to view other Missouri newspapers online. http://newspapers.umsystem.edu/Default/Skins/Missouri/Client.asp?Skin=Missouri&AW=1224421018368&AppName=2 Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robert R Kincade, #129770

Kelly, When a mutation appears in only one individual within a set, we cannot attach much meaning to it. It is only when others in the set start showing up with that mutation that we can look for possible connections. There are a few markers that seem to have many parallel mutations, most notably the CDY complex (markers 34 & 35). A mutation at these markers does not necessarily mean a closer relationship to others who have the mutation but should be kept in mind when looking for connections. Marker 30 is suppose to be a site that mutates more quickly than other sites though so far this doesn't show up in the Kincaid project. There is one other Group A-1a Kincaid who has a 16 at marker 30 (DYS456). The value of 18 for A-2b and 25710 are the only other incidence (besides your line) of mutation at this marker in Group A. 25710 claims descent from Joseph/ Eliz Gray Downing who was born in 1771. The family moved from KY to Crawford Co. IN. Your Mathew Kincaid indicates in the 1850 census that he was b 1807/8 in VA. I don't know whether Joseph's researcher knows when Joseph or his family moved to KY or where he was born (Boone didn't lead the first settlers into KY until 1775) so it is possible that somewhere there could be a connection. However, if your Mathew is proven to be the son of Francis, son of Thomas/Hannah Tincher and Joseph can be vetted as ancestor of 25710, it looks like the 2 mutations to 16 were parallel as the others who have potential to Thomas/Hannah do not have that mutation. Still you do have to keep the 25710's matching mutation in mind and should, along with the researcher for 25710, eliminate any possibility of connection. Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: <lewisjo@junct.com> To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] DNA Question > Sue, > Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that. I have another > question: You said that group A-2b has a mutation @ marker 30, they have > an 18, when the other groups,(A), have a 17. Since my father has a 16 at > this marker, is that anything significant? > Thanks again, > Kelly > > > >> Peter, thank you for the explaination to the group. >> To answer Kelly's question and explain how the chart is organized. >> >> Each Group in the chart have similar patterns of results within the group >> and they are very different from the patterns of results for any other >> Group. Each of the members of a group are related to each other but are >> not >> related to members of other groups. Each Group has a single ancestor who >> adopted the surname Kincaid or a variance thereof. The 2 most numerous >> Groups in the Kincaid project are Group A and Group C-2. >> >> The Apparent Ancestral Values for Group A (top string) and Group C-2 >> (bottom >> string) for markers 1-12/13-25/26-37 are: >> 13.23.14.12.11.14.12.12.11.13.13.29/16.9.10.11.11.24.15.18.29.15.16.17.18/11.10.19.23.17.14.16.17.37.39.12.12 >> 13.25.14.10.11.14.12.12.12.13.13.30/17.9.10.11.11.25.15.19.30.15.15.17.17/11.11.19.24.16.15.18.17.36.36.13.12 >> >> If I have counted correctly there are 18 markers that do not match. Some >> of >> those that don't match vary by several steps. There are 19 markers that >> are >> the same which would indicate a common ancestor back in the ice age or >> beyond. But for our purposes, these Groups are not genetically related. >> >> There are few variances from the Group AAV for C-2. Three members have a >> 24 >> at marker 2. Two of these descend from George/Elizabeth Dean. The 3rd >> with >> this mutation should look for a connection to this line. Because there >> are >> so few mutations, it is possible that the common ancestor for this Group >> may >> be found in historic times. >> >> Group A has a number of mutations which are shared by a others in the >> Group. >> The most significant mutation occurs at marker 15 in the second panel >> (13-25), 3rd number. The AAV is a 10. One third of the project members >> have >> a 9 at this marker. Those with a 10 are in Group A set 1. Those with a 9 >> are >> in Group A set 2/4. >> >> Group A set 2/4 can be divided into subfamilies. >> Set 2a does not as yet have a significant mutation from the set AAV. >> >> A-2b has a significant mutation at marker 30 in the 3rd panel (26-37), >> 5th >> number. This set has an 18 instead of the AAV 17. They should have a >> common >> ancestor closer in time than any one of them connect to someone who does >> not >> have the 18. >> >> A-4 has several mutations shared by all members of the set. They all have >> a >> 14 instead of the AAV 15 at marker 19 (7th number in the 2nd panel) and a >> 36 >> instead of 37 at marker 34 (4th from the end of the 3rd panel). >> >> Group A set 1 can be divided into a subfamily with no significant >> variance >> from the AAV for Group A (set 1a), a subfamily set 1b that has a 12 >> instead >> of an 11 at marker 26 (1st number in the 3rd panel) and a set which >> contains >> our biggest challange. A-1c has one common mutation that distinguishes it >> from A-1a. They all have an 11 instead of a 12 at marker 4 (4th number in >> the 1st panel). >> >> What makes this 11 such a challange is that an 11 at this marker pops up >> in >> every other Group A set and subset. If everyone could be vetted to their >> claimed ancestor there would have been at least 6 times this marker >> mutated >> to an 11. Even if they could not be vetted either the mutation at marker >> 4 >> to an 11 occured several times or 4 other markers (15, 19, 26 and 30) >> mutated twice. The odds that the latter happened are astromomical. The >> value >> of 12 at marker 4 is at the top of its range. Very few people have it. >> From >> our project data, it appears that the marker is very unstable at this >> value >> and drops a repetition often. >> >> In A-4 Peter has isolated the mutation to Daniel, son of his ancestor >> David >> as the line from another son of David does not have the mutation. >> >> In A-2a a line from one son of John, son of George, has the mutation. A >> line >> from another son of John does not. >> >> In A-1b 2 lines with probable common ancestor John/Elizabeth Logan have >> the >> mutation. No one else in the set does. Either the mutation to 12 at >> marker >> 26 would have had to occur in 2 individuals or the marker four 11 was the >> result of a separate event. >> >> In A-2b the same thing occurs. One individual has the mutation the rest >> do >> not. Again the mutation to18 at marker 30 would have had to occur twice >> or >> the marker 4 mutation to 11 was the result of a separate event. >> >> In A-1c an individual with the mutation claims with a great deal of >> circumstantial evidence to the same ancestor as several individuals >> without >> the mutation in A-1a. >> >> If everyone in A-1c except the individual above, could be traced to a >> single >> common ancestor, that ancestor was not the same one as any of the above. >> With so many mutations to the 11 on record, it is unclear if all in this >> set >> will find a common ancestor before connecting to someone without it. >> >> Sue Liedtke >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <lewisjo@junct.com> >> To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 7:02 PM >> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] DNA Question >> >> >>> Peter, >>> Thank you so much for your detailed information. I'm sure others will >>> find >>> it as useful as I have. Besides grouping us together because we have >>> similar DNA patterns, (including mutations), can't these markers tell us >>> something more in-depth about each of our particular groups, subgroups >>> and >>> the mutations that make us distance-1,2,3, etc.? I know that each strand >>> of DNA is for something, such as eye color, hair color, height, >>> diseases, >>> etc, so what do these markers tell, or do they even know that info? >>> Since >>> everyone in the project has such closely matched DNA, does that mean >>> that >>> everyone of us came from the same exact male ancestor, not one of our >>> lines came from another man who decided to use the Kyncade as their last >>> name? That the mutations just tell us that we are related, but different >>> as to how many generations back? >>> Am I trying to make it more difficult than it is? I'm sorry for all the >>> questions, I would just like to have a good grasp of all the information >>> possible. And again, thank you so much for being patient with us >>> "newbies". >>> Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robt R Kincade #129770 >>> >>> >>>> Hi Kelly, >>>> >>>> The following is something I put together a few years ago >>>> for my DNA web page. Perhaps this will help with the >>>> basics a bit. >>>> >>>> Everyone of us contain structures called chromosomes. These chromosomes >>>> usually come in pairs, one inherited from the mother and one from the >>>> father, and humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes altogether. In 22 of >>>> the >>>> 23 pairs, the 2 chromosomes are very similar. However, the 23rd pair is >>>> made up of two possible combinations of 2 very different chromosomes, >>>> the >>>> X and the Y chromosomes. All of us have at least one X chromosome, >>>> which >>>> we have inherited from our mother. The second chromosome in this pair >>>> is >>>> always inherited from the father. If it is another X chomosome then the >>>> pair readily mixes and the embryo developes into a female. If the >>>> second >>>> chromosome inherited from the father is a Y chromosome then the embryo >>>> developes into a male. Since a male's 23rd pair are disimilar (X & Y), >>>> genetic material cannot readily exchange between them. The result is >>>> that >>>> the Y chromosome of every living man contains portions that directly >>>> resembles that of his father, grandfather, great gra! >>>> ndfather etc. and cousins of any degree who also have the same male >>>> ancestor. >>>> >>>> The Y chromosone is about 60,000,000 base pairs long. One base on the >>>> DNA >>>> strand can be one of the following four nitrogen containing chemicals: >>>> A >>>> (adenine), T (thymine), C (cytosine) and G (guanine). There are two >>>> strands in the DNA chain parallel to each other and connected. They are >>>> connected because Adenine (A) pairs with thymine (T) and cytosine (C) >>>> pairs with guanine (G). Thus, if you have a A on one strand then its >>>> opposite strand will have a T so they can join. >>>> >>>> When the DNA within the male Y chromosome is copied from generation to >>>> generation, small mistakes are occasionally made. These mistakes give >>>> rise >>>> to differences between Y chromosomes of two individuals called >>>> "polymorphisms". An person's combination of polymorphisms identifies a >>>> unique sequence or "haplotype" with which to make comparisons to that >>>> of >>>> another individual. >>>> >>>> STRs (abbreviation for Short Tandem Repeats) are sections of DNA where >>>> a >>>> short pattern (2-5 bases) has been identified as repeating a certain >>>> number of times in a row (in tandem). DYS391 is an identified STR with >>>> the >>>> 'GATA' pattern repeating at one specific location (repeating patterns >>>> at >>>> specific points are called markers). For many Kincaids in our project >>>> it >>>> has been determined that the DYS391 marker repeated 12 times. In that >>>> section of the Y-DNA one strand of the DNA looks like: >>>> >>>> GATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATA. >>>> >>>> For other Kincaids in the project there was a mutation in one of the >>>> GATA >>>> pairs (ie. perhaps a G became a C) resulting in only 11 GATA repeats >>>> being >>>> counted for the same marker instead of 12 (ie. a mutation is when the >>>> number of repeats increases or decreases by one or occasionally two or >>>> more). Since we are dealing with more than one base pair (ie. one >>>> letter) >>>> then mutations can be observed frequently enough in STR markers to be >>>> of >>>> use for genealogy. >>>> >>>> Peter A. Kincaid >>>> Fredericton, NB, Canada >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: lewisjo@junct.com >>>> To: KINCAID@rootsweb.com >>>> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:28 PM >>>> Subject: [KINCAID] DNA Question >>>> >>>> >>>> Can anyone tell me what the markers mean? Each one has a value, but >>>> what >>>> is the orginal meaning of the marker, does it, in itself mean >>>> anything >>>> that we can understand? When you say "mutations", do you mean that it >>>> is >>>> just a different value than the rest of the group has? Isn't there >>>> anything significant about that particular mutation at that >>>> particular >>>> marker? >>>> Kelly >>>> >>>> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: >>>> >>>> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: >>> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: >> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sue, Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that. I have another question: You said that group A-2b has a mutation @ marker 30, they have an 18, when the other groups,(A), have a 17. Since my father has a 16 at this marker, is that anything significant? Thanks again, Kelly > Peter, thank you for the explaination to the group. > To answer Kelly's question and explain how the chart is organized. > > Each Group in the chart have similar patterns of results within the group > and they are very different from the patterns of results for any other > Group. Each of the members of a group are related to each other but are > not > related to members of other groups. Each Group has a single ancestor who > adopted the surname Kincaid or a variance thereof. The 2 most numerous > Groups in the Kincaid project are Group A and Group C-2. > > The Apparent Ancestral Values for Group A (top string) and Group C-2 > (bottom > string) for markers 1-12/13-25/26-37 are: > 13.23.14.12.11.14.12.12.11.13.13.29/16.9.10.11.11.24.15.18.29.15.16.17.18/11.10.19.23.17.14.16.17.37.39.12.12 > 13.25.14.10.11.14.12.12.12.13.13.30/17.9.10.11.11.25.15.19.30.15.15.17.17/11.11.19.24.16.15.18.17.36.36.13.12 > > If I have counted correctly there are 18 markers that do not match. Some > of > those that don't match vary by several steps. There are 19 markers that > are > the same which would indicate a common ancestor back in the ice age or > beyond. But for our purposes, these Groups are not genetically related. > > There are few variances from the Group AAV for C-2. Three members have a > 24 > at marker 2. Two of these descend from George/Elizabeth Dean. The 3rd with > this mutation should look for a connection to this line. Because there are > so few mutations, it is possible that the common ancestor for this Group > may > be found in historic times. > > Group A has a number of mutations which are shared by a others in the > Group. > The most significant mutation occurs at marker 15 in the second panel > (13-25), 3rd number. The AAV is a 10. One third of the project members > have > a 9 at this marker. Those with a 10 are in Group A set 1. Those with a 9 > are > in Group A set 2/4. > > Group A set 2/4 can be divided into subfamilies. > Set 2a does not as yet have a significant mutation from the set AAV. > > A-2b has a significant mutation at marker 30 in the 3rd panel (26-37), 5th > number. This set has an 18 instead of the AAV 17. They should have a > common > ancestor closer in time than any one of them connect to someone who does > not > have the 18. > > A-4 has several mutations shared by all members of the set. They all have > a > 14 instead of the AAV 15 at marker 19 (7th number in the 2nd panel) and a > 36 > instead of 37 at marker 34 (4th from the end of the 3rd panel). > > Group A set 1 can be divided into a subfamily with no significant variance > from the AAV for Group A (set 1a), a subfamily set 1b that has a 12 > instead > of an 11 at marker 26 (1st number in the 3rd panel) and a set which > contains > our biggest challange. A-1c has one common mutation that distinguishes it > from A-1a. They all have an 11 instead of a 12 at marker 4 (4th number in > the 1st panel). > > What makes this 11 such a challange is that an 11 at this marker pops up > in > every other Group A set and subset. If everyone could be vetted to their > claimed ancestor there would have been at least 6 times this marker > mutated > to an 11. Even if they could not be vetted either the mutation at marker 4 > to an 11 occured several times or 4 other markers (15, 19, 26 and 30) > mutated twice. The odds that the latter happened are astromomical. The > value > of 12 at marker 4 is at the top of its range. Very few people have it. > From > our project data, it appears that the marker is very unstable at this > value > and drops a repetition often. > > In A-4 Peter has isolated the mutation to Daniel, son of his ancestor > David > as the line from another son of David does not have the mutation. > > In A-2a a line from one son of John, son of George, has the mutation. A > line > from another son of John does not. > > In A-1b 2 lines with probable common ancestor John/Elizabeth Logan have > the > mutation. No one else in the set does. Either the mutation to 12 at marker > 26 would have had to occur in 2 individuals or the marker four 11 was the > result of a separate event. > > In A-2b the same thing occurs. One individual has the mutation the rest do > not. Again the mutation to18 at marker 30 would have had to occur twice or > the marker 4 mutation to 11 was the result of a separate event. > > In A-1c an individual with the mutation claims with a great deal of > circumstantial evidence to the same ancestor as several individuals > without > the mutation in A-1a. > > If everyone in A-1c except the individual above, could be traced to a > single > common ancestor, that ancestor was not the same one as any of the above. > With so many mutations to the 11 on record, it is unclear if all in this > set > will find a common ancestor before connecting to someone without it. > > Sue Liedtke > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <lewisjo@junct.com> > To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 7:02 PM > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] DNA Question > > >> Peter, >> Thank you so much for your detailed information. I'm sure others will >> find >> it as useful as I have. Besides grouping us together because we have >> similar DNA patterns, (including mutations), can't these markers tell us >> something more in-depth about each of our particular groups, subgroups >> and >> the mutations that make us distance-1,2,3, etc.? I know that each strand >> of DNA is for something, such as eye color, hair color, height, >> diseases, >> etc, so what do these markers tell, or do they even know that info? >> Since >> everyone in the project has such closely matched DNA, does that mean >> that >> everyone of us came from the same exact male ancestor, not one of our >> lines came from another man who decided to use the Kyncade as their last >> name? That the mutations just tell us that we are related, but different >> as to how many generations back? >> Am I trying to make it more difficult than it is? I'm sorry for all the >> questions, I would just like to have a good grasp of all the information >> possible. And again, thank you so much for being patient with us >> "newbies". >> Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robt R Kincade #129770 >> >> >>> Hi Kelly, >>> >>> The following is something I put together a few years ago >>> for my DNA web page. Perhaps this will help with the >>> basics a bit. >>> >>> Everyone of us contain structures called chromosomes. These chromosomes >>> usually come in pairs, one inherited from the mother and one from the >>> father, and humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes altogether. In 22 of >>> the >>> 23 pairs, the 2 chromosomes are very similar. However, the 23rd pair is >>> made up of two possible combinations of 2 very different chromosomes, >>> the >>> X and the Y chromosomes. All of us have at least one X chromosome, >>> which >>> we have inherited from our mother. The second chromosome in this pair >>> is >>> always inherited from the father. If it is another X chomosome then the >>> pair readily mixes and the embryo developes into a female. If the >>> second >>> chromosome inherited from the father is a Y chromosome then the embryo >>> developes into a male. Since a male's 23rd pair are disimilar (X & Y), >>> genetic material cannot readily exchange between them. The result is >>> that >>> the Y chromosome of every living man contains portions that directly >>> resembles that of his father, grandfather, great gra! >>> ndfather etc. and cousins of any degree who also have the same male >>> ancestor. >>> >>> The Y chromosone is about 60,000,000 base pairs long. One base on the >>> DNA >>> strand can be one of the following four nitrogen containing chemicals: >>> A >>> (adenine), T (thymine), C (cytosine) and G (guanine). There are two >>> strands in the DNA chain parallel to each other and connected. They are >>> connected because Adenine (A) pairs with thymine (T) and cytosine (C) >>> pairs with guanine (G). Thus, if you have a A on one strand then its >>> opposite strand will have a T so they can join. >>> >>> When the DNA within the male Y chromosome is copied from generation to >>> generation, small mistakes are occasionally made. These mistakes give >>> rise >>> to differences between Y chromosomes of two individuals called >>> "polymorphisms". An person's combination of polymorphisms identifies a >>> unique sequence or "haplotype" with which to make comparisons to that >>> of >>> another individual. >>> >>> STRs (abbreviation for Short Tandem Repeats) are sections of DNA where >>> a >>> short pattern (2-5 bases) has been identified as repeating a certain >>> number of times in a row (in tandem). DYS391 is an identified STR with >>> the >>> 'GATA' pattern repeating at one specific location (repeating patterns >>> at >>> specific points are called markers). For many Kincaids in our project >>> it >>> has been determined that the DYS391 marker repeated 12 times. In that >>> section of the Y-DNA one strand of the DNA looks like: >>> >>> GATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATA. >>> >>> For other Kincaids in the project there was a mutation in one of the >>> GATA >>> pairs (ie. perhaps a G became a C) resulting in only 11 GATA repeats >>> being >>> counted for the same marker instead of 12 (ie. a mutation is when the >>> number of repeats increases or decreases by one or occasionally two or >>> more). Since we are dealing with more than one base pair (ie. one >>> letter) >>> then mutations can be observed frequently enough in STR markers to be >>> of >>> use for genealogy. >>> >>> Peter A. Kincaid >>> Fredericton, NB, Canada >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: lewisjo@junct.com >>> To: KINCAID@rootsweb.com >>> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:28 PM >>> Subject: [KINCAID] DNA Question >>> >>> >>> Can anyone tell me what the markers mean? Each one has a value, but >>> what >>> is the orginal meaning of the marker, does it, in itself mean >>> anything >>> that we can understand? When you say "mutations", do you mean that it >>> is >>> just a different value than the rest of the group has? Isn't there >>> anything significant about that particular mutation at that >>> particular >>> marker? >>> Kelly >>> >>> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: >>> >>> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Peter, thank you for the explaination to the group. To answer Kelly's question and explain how the chart is organized. Each Group in the chart have similar patterns of results within the group and they are very different from the patterns of results for any other Group. Each of the members of a group are related to each other but are not related to members of other groups. Each Group has a single ancestor who adopted the surname Kincaid or a variance thereof. The 2 most numerous Groups in the Kincaid project are Group A and Group C-2. The Apparent Ancestral Values for Group A (top string) and Group C-2 (bottom string) for markers 1-12/13-25/26-37 are: 13.23.14.12.11.14.12.12.11.13.13.29/16.9.10.11.11.24.15.18.29.15.16.17.18/11.10.19.23.17.14.16.17.37.39.12.12 13.25.14.10.11.14.12.12.12.13.13.30/17.9.10.11.11.25.15.19.30.15.15.17.17/11.11.19.24.16.15.18.17.36.36.13.12 If I have counted correctly there are 18 markers that do not match. Some of those that don't match vary by several steps. There are 19 markers that are the same which would indicate a common ancestor back in the ice age or beyond. But for our purposes, these Groups are not genetically related. There are few variances from the Group AAV for C-2. Three members have a 24 at marker 2. Two of these descend from George/Elizabeth Dean. The 3rd with this mutation should look for a connection to this line. Because there are so few mutations, it is possible that the common ancestor for this Group may be found in historic times. Group A has a number of mutations which are shared by a others in the Group. The most significant mutation occurs at marker 15 in the second panel (13-25), 3rd number. The AAV is a 10. One third of the project members have a 9 at this marker. Those with a 10 are in Group A set 1. Those with a 9 are in Group A set 2/4. Group A set 2/4 can be divided into subfamilies. Set 2a does not as yet have a significant mutation from the set AAV. A-2b has a significant mutation at marker 30 in the 3rd panel (26-37), 5th number. This set has an 18 instead of the AAV 17. They should have a common ancestor closer in time than any one of them connect to someone who does not have the 18. A-4 has several mutations shared by all members of the set. They all have a 14 instead of the AAV 15 at marker 19 (7th number in the 2nd panel) and a 36 instead of 37 at marker 34 (4th from the end of the 3rd panel). Group A set 1 can be divided into a subfamily with no significant variance from the AAV for Group A (set 1a), a subfamily set 1b that has a 12 instead of an 11 at marker 26 (1st number in the 3rd panel) and a set which contains our biggest challange. A-1c has one common mutation that distinguishes it from A-1a. They all have an 11 instead of a 12 at marker 4 (4th number in the 1st panel). What makes this 11 such a challange is that an 11 at this marker pops up in every other Group A set and subset. If everyone could be vetted to their claimed ancestor there would have been at least 6 times this marker mutated to an 11. Even if they could not be vetted either the mutation at marker 4 to an 11 occured several times or 4 other markers (15, 19, 26 and 30) mutated twice. The odds that the latter happened are astromomical. The value of 12 at marker 4 is at the top of its range. Very few people have it. From our project data, it appears that the marker is very unstable at this value and drops a repetition often. In A-4 Peter has isolated the mutation to Daniel, son of his ancestor David as the line from another son of David does not have the mutation. In A-2a a line from one son of John, son of George, has the mutation. A line from another son of John does not. In A-1b 2 lines with probable common ancestor John/Elizabeth Logan have the mutation. No one else in the set does. Either the mutation to 12 at marker 26 would have had to occur in 2 individuals or the marker four 11 was the result of a separate event. In A-2b the same thing occurs. One individual has the mutation the rest do not. Again the mutation to18 at marker 30 would have had to occur twice or the marker 4 mutation to 11 was the result of a separate event. In A-1c an individual with the mutation claims with a great deal of circumstantial evidence to the same ancestor as several individuals without the mutation in A-1a. If everyone in A-1c except the individual above, could be traced to a single common ancestor, that ancestor was not the same one as any of the above. With so many mutations to the 11 on record, it is unclear if all in this set will find a common ancestor before connecting to someone without it. Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: <lewisjo@junct.com> To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] DNA Question > Peter, > Thank you so much for your detailed information. I'm sure others will find > it as useful as I have. Besides grouping us together because we have > similar DNA patterns, (including mutations), can't these markers tell us > something more in-depth about each of our particular groups, subgroups and > the mutations that make us distance-1,2,3, etc.? I know that each strand > of DNA is for something, such as eye color, hair color, height, diseases, > etc, so what do these markers tell, or do they even know that info? Since > everyone in the project has such closely matched DNA, does that mean that > everyone of us came from the same exact male ancestor, not one of our > lines came from another man who decided to use the Kyncade as their last > name? That the mutations just tell us that we are related, but different > as to how many generations back? > Am I trying to make it more difficult than it is? I'm sorry for all the > questions, I would just like to have a good grasp of all the information > possible. And again, thank you so much for being patient with us > "newbies". > Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robt R Kincade #129770 > > >> Hi Kelly, >> >> The following is something I put together a few years ago >> for my DNA web page. Perhaps this will help with the >> basics a bit. >> >> Everyone of us contain structures called chromosomes. These chromosomes >> usually come in pairs, one inherited from the mother and one from the >> father, and humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes altogether. In 22 of the >> 23 pairs, the 2 chromosomes are very similar. However, the 23rd pair is >> made up of two possible combinations of 2 very different chromosomes, the >> X and the Y chromosomes. All of us have at least one X chromosome, which >> we have inherited from our mother. The second chromosome in this pair is >> always inherited from the father. If it is another X chomosome then the >> pair readily mixes and the embryo developes into a female. If the second >> chromosome inherited from the father is a Y chromosome then the embryo >> developes into a male. Since a male's 23rd pair are disimilar (X & Y), >> genetic material cannot readily exchange between them. The result is that >> the Y chromosome of every living man contains portions that directly >> resembles that of his father, grandfather, great gra! >> ndfather etc. and cousins of any degree who also have the same male >> ancestor. >> >> The Y chromosone is about 60,000,000 base pairs long. One base on the DNA >> strand can be one of the following four nitrogen containing chemicals: A >> (adenine), T (thymine), C (cytosine) and G (guanine). There are two >> strands in the DNA chain parallel to each other and connected. They are >> connected because Adenine (A) pairs with thymine (T) and cytosine (C) >> pairs with guanine (G). Thus, if you have a A on one strand then its >> opposite strand will have a T so they can join. >> >> When the DNA within the male Y chromosome is copied from generation to >> generation, small mistakes are occasionally made. These mistakes give >> rise >> to differences between Y chromosomes of two individuals called >> "polymorphisms". An person's combination of polymorphisms identifies a >> unique sequence or "haplotype" with which to make comparisons to that of >> another individual. >> >> STRs (abbreviation for Short Tandem Repeats) are sections of DNA where a >> short pattern (2-5 bases) has been identified as repeating a certain >> number of times in a row (in tandem). DYS391 is an identified STR with >> the >> 'GATA' pattern repeating at one specific location (repeating patterns at >> specific points are called markers). For many Kincaids in our project it >> has been determined that the DYS391 marker repeated 12 times. In that >> section of the Y-DNA one strand of the DNA looks like: >> >> GATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATA. >> >> For other Kincaids in the project there was a mutation in one of the GATA >> pairs (ie. perhaps a G became a C) resulting in only 11 GATA repeats >> being >> counted for the same marker instead of 12 (ie. a mutation is when the >> number of repeats increases or decreases by one or occasionally two or >> more). Since we are dealing with more than one base pair (ie. one letter) >> then mutations can be observed frequently enough in STR markers to be of >> use for genealogy. >> >> Peter A. Kincaid >> Fredericton, NB, Canada >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: lewisjo@junct.com >> To: KINCAID@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:28 PM >> Subject: [KINCAID] DNA Question >> >> >> Can anyone tell me what the markers mean? Each one has a value, but >> what >> is the orginal meaning of the marker, does it, in itself mean anything >> that we can understand? When you say "mutations", do you mean that it >> is >> just a different value than the rest of the group has? Isn't there >> anything significant about that particular mutation at that particular >> marker? >> Kelly >> >> To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: >> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Peter, that's a good explanation of it. They are still studying our "junk" DNA to figure out if there is any certain frequency or pattern to the mutations of each marker and if there is, what it means and can it be predicted. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <7kincaid@nb.sympatico.ca> To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] DNA Question > While DNA determines many of your physical > characteristics (ie. hair color, etc.) and potential > health risks, most of these are on the other > chromosomes. On these other chromosomes, you > are getting a mix of your mother's and father's DNA. > Your children would have a mix of all four of their > grandparents' DNA. Thus, it doesn't take long before > we really differ from one direct line of ancestors; that > is outside of close inbreeding. The part of the Y > chromosome we are testing did not get mixed and, for > that part, all of us match pretty close to our ancestor's > DNA 800 years ago. For the most part, these are in > areas which they call junk DNA because there is > no apparent or significant reason for the DNA. Some > of it could be genetic material from another source > (ie. a virus) added in. Some came from copy areas > (ie. the DNA looped and duplicated itself). There > was once commentary that certain mutations in the > DYS 464 series of markers could be an indicator of male > fertility. However, I have not read about anything that > can really be interpreted for certain from one's Y > chromosome profile as we currently test for our project. > It is simply looking at very small sections of our DNA > that we share with our direct male ancestor and finding a > genealogical utility for it. > > Best wishes! > > Peter > >

Thank you Peter, you've been most helpful! Kelly > While DNA determines many of your physical > characteristics (ie. hair color, etc.) and potential > health risks, most of these are on the other > chromosomes. On these other chromosomes, you > are getting a mix of your mother's and father's DNA. > Your children would have a mix of all four of their > grandparents' DNA. Thus, it doesn't take long before > we really differ from one direct line of ancestors; that > is outside of close inbreeding. The part of the Y > chromosome we are testing did not get mixed and, for > that part, all of us match pretty close to our ancestor's > DNA 800 years ago. For the most part, these are in > areas which they call junk DNA because there is > no apparent or significant reason for the DNA. Some > of it could be genetic material from another source > (ie. a virus) added in. Some came from copy areas > (ie. the DNA looped and duplicated itself). There > was once commentary that certain mutations in the > DYS 464 series of markers could be an indicator of male > fertility. However, I have not read about anything that > can really be interpreted for certain from one's Y > chromosome profile as we currently test for our project. > It is simply looking at very small sections of our DNA > that we share with our direct male ancestor and finding a > genealogical utility for it. > > Best wishes! > > Peter > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lewisjo@junct.com > To: kincaid@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 11:02 PM > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] DNA Question > > > Peter, > Thank you so much for your detailed information. I'm sure others will > find > it as useful as I have. Besides grouping us together because we have > similar DNA patterns, (including mutations), can't these markers tell us > something more in-depth about each of our particular groups, subgroups > and > the mutations that make us distance-1,2,3, etc.? I know that each strand > of DNA is for something, such as eye color, hair color, height, > diseases, > etc, so what do these markers tell, or do they even know that info? > Since > everyone in the project has such closely matched DNA, does that mean > that > everyone of us came from the same exact male ancestor, not one of our > lines came from another man who decided to use the Kyncade as their last > name? That the mutations just tell us that we are related, but different > as to how many generations back? > Am I trying to make it more difficult than it is? I'm sorry for all the > questions, I would just like to have a good grasp of all the information > possible. And again, thank you so much for being patient with us > "newbies". > Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robt R Kincade #129770 > > > > Hi Kelly, > > > > The following is something I put together a few years ago > > for my DNA web page. Perhaps this will help with the > > basics a bit. > > > > Everyone of us contain structures called chromosomes. These > chromosomes > > usually come in pairs, one inherited from the mother and one from the > > father, and humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes altogether. In 22 of > the > > 23 pairs, the 2 chromosomes are very similar. However, the 23rd pair > is > > made up of two possible combinations of 2 very different chromosomes, > the > > X and the Y chromosomes. All of us have at least one X chromosome, > which > > we have inherited from our mother. The second chromosome in this pair > is > > always inherited from the father. If it is another X chomosome then > the > > pair readily mixes and the embryo developes into a female. If the > second > > chromosome inherited from the father is a Y chromosome then the embryo > > developes into a male. Since a male's 23rd pair are disimilar (X & Y), > > genetic material cannot readily exchange between them. The result is > that > > the Y chromosome of every living man contains portions that directly > > resembles that of his father, grandfather, great gra! > > ndfather etc. and cousins of any degree who also have the same male > > ancestor. > > > > The Y chromosone is about 60,000,000 base pairs long. One base on the > DNA > > strand can be one of the following four nitrogen containing chemicals: > A > > (adenine), T (thymine), C (cytosine) and G (guanine). There are two > > strands in the DNA chain parallel to each other and connected. They > are > > connected because Adenine (A) pairs with thymine (T) and cytosine (C) > > pairs with guanine (G). Thus, if you have a A on one strand then its > > opposite strand will have a T so they can join. > > > > When the DNA within the male Y chromosome is copied from generation to > > generation, small mistakes are occasionally made. These mistakes give > rise > > to differences between Y chromosomes of two individuals called > > "polymorphisms". An person's combination of polymorphisms identifies a > > unique sequence or "haplotype" with which to make comparisons to that > of > > another individual. > > > > STRs (abbreviation for Short Tandem Repeats) are sections of DNA where > a > > short pattern (2-5 bases) has been identified as repeating a certain > > number of times in a row (in tandem). DYS391 is an identified STR with > the > > 'GATA' pattern repeating at one specific location (repeating patterns > at > > specific points are called markers). For many Kincaids in our project > it > > has been determined that the DYS391 marker repeated 12 times. In that > > section of the Y-DNA one strand of the DNA looks like: > > > > GATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATA. > > > > For other Kincaids in the project there was a mutation in one of the > GATA > > pairs (ie. perhaps a G became a C) resulting in only 11 GATA repeats > being > > counted for the same marker instead of 12 (ie. a mutation is when the > > number of repeats increases or decreases by one or occasionally two or > > more). Since we are dealing with more than one base pair (ie. one > letter) > > then mutations can be observed frequently enough in STR markers to be > of > > use for genealogy. > > > > Peter A. Kincaid > > Fredericton, NB, Canada > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: lewisjo@junct.com > > To: KINCAID@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:28 PM > > Subject: [KINCAID] DNA Question > > > > > > Can anyone tell me what the markers mean? Each one has a value, but > what > > is the orginal meaning of the marker, does it, in itself mean > anything > > that we can understand? When you say "mutations", do you mean that > it is > > just a different value than the rest of the group has? Isn't there > > anything significant about that particular mutation at that > particular > > marker? > > Kelly > > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

While DNA determines many of your physical characteristics (ie. hair color, etc.) and potential health risks, most of these are on the other chromosomes. On these other chromosomes, you are getting a mix of your mother's and father's DNA. Your children would have a mix of all four of their grandparents' DNA. Thus, it doesn't take long before we really differ from one direct line of ancestors; that is outside of close inbreeding. The part of the Y chromosome we are testing did not get mixed and, for that part, all of us match pretty close to our ancestor's DNA 800 years ago. For the most part, these are in areas which they call junk DNA because there is no apparent or significant reason for the DNA. Some of it could be genetic material from another source (ie. a virus) added in. Some came from copy areas (ie. the DNA looped and duplicated itself). There was once commentary that certain mutations in the DYS 464 series of markers could be an indicator of male fertility. However, I have not read about anything that can really be interpreted for certain from one's Y chromosome profile as we currently test for our project. It is simply looking at very small sections of our DNA that we share with our direct male ancestor and finding a genealogical utility for it. Best wishes! Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: lewisjo@junct.com To: kincaid@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] DNA Question Peter, Thank you so much for your detailed information. I'm sure others will find it as useful as I have. Besides grouping us together because we have similar DNA patterns, (including mutations), can't these markers tell us something more in-depth about each of our particular groups, subgroups and the mutations that make us distance-1,2,3, etc.? I know that each strand of DNA is for something, such as eye color, hair color, height, diseases, etc, so what do these markers tell, or do they even know that info? Since everyone in the project has such closely matched DNA, does that mean that everyone of us came from the same exact male ancestor, not one of our lines came from another man who decided to use the Kyncade as their last name? That the mutations just tell us that we are related, but different as to how many generations back? Am I trying to make it more difficult than it is? I'm sorry for all the questions, I would just like to have a good grasp of all the information possible. And again, thank you so much for being patient with us "newbies". Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robt R Kincade #129770 > Hi Kelly, > > The following is something I put together a few years ago > for my DNA web page. Perhaps this will help with the > basics a bit. > > Everyone of us contain structures called chromosomes. These chromosomes > usually come in pairs, one inherited from the mother and one from the > father, and humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes altogether. In 22 of the > 23 pairs, the 2 chromosomes are very similar. However, the 23rd pair is > made up of two possible combinations of 2 very different chromosomes, the > X and the Y chromosomes. All of us have at least one X chromosome, which > we have inherited from our mother. The second chromosome in this pair is > always inherited from the father. If it is another X chomosome then the > pair readily mixes and the embryo developes into a female. If the second > chromosome inherited from the father is a Y chromosome then the embryo > developes into a male. Since a male's 23rd pair are disimilar (X & Y), > genetic material cannot readily exchange between them. The result is that > the Y chromosome of every living man contains portions that directly > resembles that of his father, grandfather, great gra! > ndfather etc. and cousins of any degree who also have the same male > ancestor. > > The Y chromosone is about 60,000,000 base pairs long. One base on the DNA > strand can be one of the following four nitrogen containing chemicals: A > (adenine), T (thymine), C (cytosine) and G (guanine). There are two > strands in the DNA chain parallel to each other and connected. They are > connected because Adenine (A) pairs with thymine (T) and cytosine (C) > pairs with guanine (G). Thus, if you have a A on one strand then its > opposite strand will have a T so they can join. > > When the DNA within the male Y chromosome is copied from generation to > generation, small mistakes are occasionally made. These mistakes give rise > to differences between Y chromosomes of two individuals called > "polymorphisms". An person's combination of polymorphisms identifies a > unique sequence or "haplotype" with which to make comparisons to that of > another individual. > > STRs (abbreviation for Short Tandem Repeats) are sections of DNA where a > short pattern (2-5 bases) has been identified as repeating a certain > number of times in a row (in tandem). DYS391 is an identified STR with the > 'GATA' pattern repeating at one specific location (repeating patterns at > specific points are called markers). For many Kincaids in our project it > has been determined that the DYS391 marker repeated 12 times. In that > section of the Y-DNA one strand of the DNA looks like: > > GATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATA. > > For other Kincaids in the project there was a mutation in one of the GATA > pairs (ie. perhaps a G became a C) resulting in only 11 GATA repeats being > counted for the same marker instead of 12 (ie. a mutation is when the > number of repeats increases or decreases by one or occasionally two or > more). Since we are dealing with more than one base pair (ie. one letter) > then mutations can be observed frequently enough in STR markers to be of > use for genealogy. > > Peter A. Kincaid > Fredericton, NB, Canada > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lewisjo@junct.com > To: KINCAID@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:28 PM > Subject: [KINCAID] DNA Question > > > Can anyone tell me what the markers mean? Each one has a value, but what > is the orginal meaning of the marker, does it, in itself mean anything > that we can understand? When you say "mutations", do you mean that it is > just a different value than the rest of the group has? Isn't there > anything significant about that particular mutation at that particular > marker? > Kelly > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Kelly, The following is something I put together a few years ago for my DNA web page. Perhaps this will help with the basics a bit. Everyone of us contain structures called chromosomes. These chromosomes usually come in pairs, one inherited from the mother and one from the father, and humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes altogether. In 22 of the 23 pairs, the 2 chromosomes are very similar. However, the 23rd pair is made up of two possible combinations of 2 very different chromosomes, the X and the Y chromosomes. All of us have at least one X chromosome, which we have inherited from our mother. The second chromosome in this pair is always inherited from the father. If it is another X chomosome then the pair readily mixes and the embryo developes into a female. If the second chromosome inherited from the father is a Y chromosome then the embryo developes into a male. Since a male's 23rd pair are disimilar (X & Y), genetic material cannot readily exchange between them. The result is that the Y chromosome of every living man contains portions that directly resembles that of his father, grandfather, great grandfather etc. and cousins of any degree who also have the same male ancestor. The Y chromosone is about 60,000,000 base pairs long. One base on the DNA strand can be one of the following four nitrogen containing chemicals: A (adenine), T (thymine), C (cytosine) and G (guanine). There are two strands in the DNA chain parallel to each other and connected. They are connected because Adenine (A) pairs with thymine (T) and cytosine (C) pairs with guanine (G). Thus, if you have a A on one strand then its opposite strand will have a T so they can join. When the DNA within the male Y chromosome is copied from generation to generation, small mistakes are occasionally made. These mistakes give rise to differences between Y chromosomes of two individuals called "polymorphisms". An person's combination of polymorphisms identifies a unique sequence or "haplotype" with which to make comparisons to that of another individual. STRs (abbreviation for Short Tandem Repeats) are sections of DNA where a short pattern (2-5 bases) has been identified as repeating a certain number of times in a row (in tandem). DYS391 is an identified STR with the 'GATA' pattern repeating at one specific location (repeating patterns at specific points are called markers). For many Kincaids in our project it has been determined that the DYS391 marker repeated 12 times. In that section of the Y-DNA one strand of the DNA looks like: GATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATA. For other Kincaids in the project there was a mutation in one of the GATA pairs (ie. perhaps a G became a C) resulting in only 11 GATA repeats being counted for the same marker instead of 12 (ie. a mutation is when the number of repeats increases or decreases by one or occasionally two or more). Since we are dealing with more than one base pair (ie. one letter) then mutations can be observed frequently enough in STR markers to be of use for genealogy. Peter A. Kincaid Fredericton, NB, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: lewisjo@junct.com To: KINCAID@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:28 PM Subject: [KINCAID] DNA Question Can anyone tell me what the markers mean? Each one has a value, but what is the orginal meaning of the marker, does it, in itself mean anything that we can understand? When you say "mutations", do you mean that it is just a different value than the rest of the group has? Isn't there anything significant about that particular mutation at that particular marker? Kelly

Peter, Thank you so much for this post it was very helpful to me. I have a mutation in my DNA and did not understand it. It made me fell lesser of a Kincaid but now I can see that there was only a change in one stran of my DNA. This note would be useful for many others like me. Thanks, Toney Kincaid - 33001 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <7kincaid@nb.sympatico.ca> To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] DNA Question > Hi Kelly, > > The following is something I put together a few years ago > for my DNA web page. Perhaps this will help with the > basics a bit. > > Everyone of us contain structures called chromosomes. These chromosomes > usually come in pairs, one inherited from the mother and one from the > father, and humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes altogether. In 22 of the > 23 pairs, the 2 chromosomes are very similar. However, the 23rd pair is > made up of two possible combinations of 2 very different chromosomes, the > X and the Y chromosomes. All of us have at least one X chromosome, which > we have inherited from our mother. The second chromosome in this pair is > always inherited from the father. If it is another X chomosome then the > pair readily mixes and the embryo developes into a female. If the second > chromosome inherited from the father is a Y chromosome then the embryo > developes into a male. Since a male's 23rd pair are disimilar (X & Y), > genetic material cannot readily exchange between them. The result is that > the Y chromosome of every living man contains portions that directly > resembles that of his father, grandfather, great gra! > ndfather etc. and cousins of any degree who also have the same male > ancestor. > > The Y chromosone is about 60,000,000 base pairs long. One base on the DNA > strand can be one of the following four nitrogen containing chemicals: A > (adenine), T (thymine), C (cytosine) and G (guanine). There are two > strands in the DNA chain parallel to each other and connected. They are > connected because Adenine (A) pairs with thymine (T) and cytosine (C) > pairs with guanine (G). Thus, if you have a A on one strand then its > opposite strand will have a T so they can join. > > When the DNA within the male Y chromosome is copied from generation to > generation, small mistakes are occasionally made. These mistakes give rise > to differences between Y chromosomes of two individuals called > "polymorphisms". An person's combination of polymorphisms identifies a > unique sequence or "haplotype" with which to make comparisons to that of > another individual. > > STRs (abbreviation for Short Tandem Repeats) are sections of DNA where a > short pattern (2-5 bases) has been identified as repeating a certain > number of times in a row (in tandem). DYS391 is an identified STR with the > 'GATA' pattern repeating at one specific location (repeating patterns at > specific points are called markers). For many Kincaids in our project it > has been determined that the DYS391 marker repeated 12 times. In that > section of the Y-DNA one strand of the DNA looks like: > > GATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATA. > > For other Kincaids in the project there was a mutation in one of the GATA > pairs (ie. perhaps a G became a C) resulting in only 11 GATA repeats being > counted for the same marker instead of 12 (ie. a mutation is when the > number of repeats increases or decreases by one or occasionally two or > more). Since we are dealing with more than one base pair (ie. one letter) > then mutations can be observed frequently enough in STR markers to be of > use for genealogy. > > Peter A. Kincaid > Fredericton, NB, Canada > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lewisjo@junct.com > To: KINCAID@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:28 PM > Subject: [KINCAID] DNA Question > > > Can anyone tell me what the markers mean? Each one has a value, but what > is the orginal meaning of the marker, does it, in itself mean anything > that we can understand? When you say "mutations", do you mean that it is > just a different value than the rest of the group has? Isn't there > anything significant about that particular mutation at that particular > marker? > Kelly > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Peter, Thank you so much for your detailed information. I'm sure others will find it as useful as I have. Besides grouping us together because we have similar DNA patterns, (including mutations), can't these markers tell us something more in-depth about each of our particular groups, subgroups and the mutations that make us distance-1,2,3, etc.? I know that each strand of DNA is for something, such as eye color, hair color, height, diseases, etc, so what do these markers tell, or do they even know that info? Since everyone in the project has such closely matched DNA, does that mean that everyone of us came from the same exact male ancestor, not one of our lines came from another man who decided to use the Kyncade as their last name? That the mutations just tell us that we are related, but different as to how many generations back? Am I trying to make it more difficult than it is? I'm sorry for all the questions, I would just like to have a good grasp of all the information possible. And again, thank you so much for being patient with us "newbies". Kelly Kincade-Lewis, dau of Robt R Kincade #129770 > Hi Kelly, > > The following is something I put together a few years ago > for my DNA web page. Perhaps this will help with the > basics a bit. > > Everyone of us contain structures called chromosomes. These chromosomes > usually come in pairs, one inherited from the mother and one from the > father, and humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes altogether. In 22 of the > 23 pairs, the 2 chromosomes are very similar. However, the 23rd pair is > made up of two possible combinations of 2 very different chromosomes, the > X and the Y chromosomes. All of us have at least one X chromosome, which > we have inherited from our mother. The second chromosome in this pair is > always inherited from the father. If it is another X chomosome then the > pair readily mixes and the embryo developes into a female. If the second > chromosome inherited from the father is a Y chromosome then the embryo > developes into a male. Since a male's 23rd pair are disimilar (X & Y), > genetic material cannot readily exchange between them. The result is that > the Y chromosome of every living man contains portions that directly > resembles that of his father, grandfather, great gra! > ndfather etc. and cousins of any degree who also have the same male > ancestor. > > The Y chromosone is about 60,000,000 base pairs long. One base on the DNA > strand can be one of the following four nitrogen containing chemicals: A > (adenine), T (thymine), C (cytosine) and G (guanine). There are two > strands in the DNA chain parallel to each other and connected. They are > connected because Adenine (A) pairs with thymine (T) and cytosine (C) > pairs with guanine (G). Thus, if you have a A on one strand then its > opposite strand will have a T so they can join. > > When the DNA within the male Y chromosome is copied from generation to > generation, small mistakes are occasionally made. These mistakes give rise > to differences between Y chromosomes of two individuals called > "polymorphisms". An person's combination of polymorphisms identifies a > unique sequence or "haplotype" with which to make comparisons to that of > another individual. > > STRs (abbreviation for Short Tandem Repeats) are sections of DNA where a > short pattern (2-5 bases) has been identified as repeating a certain > number of times in a row (in tandem). DYS391 is an identified STR with the > 'GATA' pattern repeating at one specific location (repeating patterns at > specific points are called markers). For many Kincaids in our project it > has been determined that the DYS391 marker repeated 12 times. In that > section of the Y-DNA one strand of the DNA looks like: > > GATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATAGATA. > > For other Kincaids in the project there was a mutation in one of the GATA > pairs (ie. perhaps a G became a C) resulting in only 11 GATA repeats being > counted for the same marker instead of 12 (ie. a mutation is when the > number of repeats increases or decreases by one or occasionally two or > more). Since we are dealing with more than one base pair (ie. one letter) > then mutations can be observed frequently enough in STR markers to be of > use for genealogy. > > Peter A. Kincaid > Fredericton, NB, Canada > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: lewisjo@junct.com > To: KINCAID@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:28 PM > Subject: [KINCAID] DNA Question > > > Can anyone tell me what the markers mean? Each one has a value, but what > is the orginal meaning of the marker, does it, in itself mean anything > that we can understand? When you say "mutations", do you mean that it is > just a different value than the rest of the group has? Isn't there > anything significant about that particular mutation at that particular > marker? > Kelly > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

This is an interesting scenario. Sample 15550 is fairly close to my group and marker 4 is volatile in our group. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Margie von Marenholtz To: kincaid@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] DNA results for 136404 Sue: What do you mean by PROVEN parallel mutations to the 11 marker value? Another question that would be useful to me understanding the Kincaid DNA Chart: Do you set up your groups by the first 12 markers only? As 136404 is the great grandson of James Woodburn Kinkade and 15550 is the great great grandson through a different son, would the distance removed from the mutual ancestor be a factor in a mutated value? Thank you for your insight. Margie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Liedtke" <seleaml@actionnet.net> To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:35 AM Subject: [KINCAID] DNA results for 136404 > The first panel for 136404 has been returned. The first 12 markers match > Group A Apparent Ancestral Values except at marker 4 (DYS391) where he has > an 11 instead of the AAV 12. > > 136404 believes descent from James Woodburn Kinkade b 1811 d 1862 m > Margaret > Kuhns 1839 of Westmoreland Co. PA. > > 15550 in Group A set 2a also claims descent from James Woodburn. 15550 > does > not have the 11 at marker 4. > > Every set in Group A except A-1a, which by definition does not have an 11 > at > this marker (though this may change if 33001 can prove to Thomas/Hannah > Tincher), have incidences of an 11 at this marker. There are several > proven > parallel mutations to this value and several more that seem likely to have > been parallel. > > Sue Liedtke >

Can anyone tell me what the markers mean? Each one has a value, but what is the orginal meaning of the marker, does it, in itself mean anything that we can understand? When you say "mutations", do you mean that it is just a different value than the rest of the group has? Isn't there anything significant about that particular mutation at that particular marker? Kelly

Sue: What do you mean by PROVEN parallel mutations to the 11 marker value? Another question that would be useful to me understanding the Kincaid DNA Chart: Do you set up your groups by the first 12 markers only? As 136404 is the great grandson of James Woodburn Kinkade and 15550 is the great great grandson through a different son, would the distance removed from the mutual ancestor be a factor in a mutated value? Thank you for your insight. Margie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Liedtke" <seleaml@actionnet.net> To: <kincaid@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:35 AM Subject: [KINCAID] DNA results for 136404 > The first panel for 136404 has been returned. The first 12 markers match > Group A Apparent Ancestral Values except at marker 4 (DYS391) where he has > an 11 instead of the AAV 12. > > 136404 believes descent from James Woodburn Kinkade b 1811 d 1862 m > Margaret > Kuhns 1839 of Westmoreland Co. PA. > > 15550 in Group A set 2a also claims descent from James Woodburn. 15550 > does > not have the 11 at marker 4. > > Every set in Group A except A-1a, which by definition does not have an 11 > at > this marker (though this may change if 33001 can prove to Thomas/Hannah > Tincher), have incidences of an 11 at this marker. There are several > proven > parallel mutations to this value and several more that seem likely to have > been parallel. > > Sue Liedtke > > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KINCAID-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The first panel for 136404 has been returned. The first 12 markers match Group A Apparent Ancestral Values except at marker 4 (DYS391) where he has an 11 instead of the AAV 12. 136404 believes descent from James Woodburn Kinkade b 1811 d 1862 m Margaret Kuhns 1839 of Westmoreland Co. PA. 15550 in Group A set 2a also claims descent from James Woodburn. 15550 does not have the 11 at marker 4. Every set in Group A except A-1a, which by definition does not have an 11 at this marker (though this may change if 33001 can prove to Thomas/Hannah Tincher), have incidences of an 11 at this marker. There are several proven parallel mutations to this value and several more that seem likely to have been parallel. Sue Liedtke