Thank you for your full reply, Peter. It is helpful. Ruth In a message dated 12/11/2010 1:36:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > On the current thread, I still do not know the answer to my question of > the > children being John or Thomas. I'll have to wait until Lesley can weigh > in. The Scottish Parochial records (available via Scotlandpeople) has: Thomas, son of John Kincaid and Jean Kincaid, was baptized in Falkirk Parish, Stirling on 17 May 1730. John, son of John Kincaid and Jean Kincaid, was baptized in Falkirk Parish, Stirling on 21 May 1728. Thomas, son of James Kincaid and Janet Simpson, was baptized in Falkirk Parish, Stirling on 11 July 1731. John, son of James Kincaid and Janet Simpson, was baptized in Falkirk Parish, Stirling on 18 May 1737. John, son of James Kincaid and Janet Simpson, was baptized in Falkirk Parish, Stirling on 27 May 1739. Lesley was getting John mixed up with Thomas. It is Thomas she meant to say not John. Peter To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca id%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> On the current thread, I still do not know the answer to my question of > the > children being John or Thomas. I'll have to wait until Lesley can weigh > in. The Scottish Parochial records (available via Scotlandpeople) has: Thomas, son of John Kincaid and Jean Kincaid, was baptized in Falkirk Parish, Stirling on 17 May 1730. John, son of John Kincaid and Jean Kincaid, was baptized in Falkirk Parish, Stirling on 21 May 1728. Thomas, son of James Kincaid and Janet Simpson, was baptized in Falkirk Parish, Stirling on 11 July 1731. John, son of James Kincaid and Janet Simpson, was baptized in Falkirk Parish, Stirling on 18 May 1737. John, son of James Kincaid and Janet Simpson, was baptized in Falkirk Parish, Stirling on 27 May 1739. Lesley was getting John mixed up with Thomas. It is Thomas she meant to say not John. Peter

I in no way got this impression when publicly called me sexist this summer when you misread my comments about Arabella Kincaid of Kincaid. I asked for an apology but did not get one. I'm not sure how I could be a fan in such a situation. I do not claim to know a lot more than the average person here. I simply take time to look things up and know how to do this reasonably well. I know I tend to be on the defensive (due to many previous attacks on me) and this may cause me to misread things. However, when I saw the message asking me for the source for Thomas Kincaid having married Elizabeth Chiesly in a thread about a person being vetted to them, I saw this as someone just wanting to give me a hard time. It all just seemed silly to me. However, my reply certainly had the tone of my bad mood and I do apologize to all for that. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn KincaidtoThomasKincaidandElizabeth Chie... > Of course I am a fan of yours. You have more knowledge in oa single one of > your brain cells than I do in my whole brain. But my point was Lesley gave > the sources that the children were named John. You said they were named > Thomas but did not give your sources. One of you is right and one is > wrong. > > I am guilty of not following the entire thread. However, because there > was > such a blatant discrepancy between what you both said, and she gave the > sources but you did not, I hardly think my question regarding sources was > silly. Thank you for the put down. > > Ruth > > > > In a message dated 12/11/2010 11:15:20 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > I know I'm not a fan of Ruth's anymore but this is a > silly question. Has she not read the posts in this > thread or even the subject line? The sources are > in the posts given. I was simply pointing out that > Lesley made an error in giving the name John > when she should have been stating the name Thomas. > There was no John marrying Elizabeth Chiesly. > It was Thomas and it is his parents she is talking > about. > > Peter > > > > > From: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas > Kincaid&Elizabeth Chi... > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:52:15 -0500 (EST) > > > Peter, > > What are your sources for the children born 17 May 1730 and 11 Jul 1731 > being named Thomas and not John? And what is your source for a Thomas > instead > of John marrying Elizabeth Chiesly? > > Ruth > > > In a message dated 12/11/2010 8:37:48 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Except that the 17-May-1730 and 11-Jul-1731 baptisms she > cites were not for a son John but for sons named Thomas. It > wasThomas Kincaid who married Elizabeth Chiesly not John > Kincaid. > > Just to be clear, even if a mother was a Kincaid when > we do Y-DNA testing it is the father's DNA that is being > passed on. There would be no Y-DNA trace of the mother > in a participant today. > > Unfortunately, it is quite likely that the participant has a > separate paternal lineage than the ancestor in question > because they match no other Kincaid. Until a matching > result is found for a participant in another branch of Thomas, > one assumes that the participant's Y-DNA is not representative > of the Kincaids of Dalderse or Grange or Candie. Legally > the participant represents the line but genetic representation is > another matter. > > Peter

Bill Kincaid's family charts are not all reliable. He has James Kincaid who married Janet Simpson as likely the son of James Kincaid in Dalgrain. James Kincaid who married Janet Simpson was the son of Thomas Kincaid in Dalderse as clearly stated in his marriage record. He also has them as the parents of Thomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chiesly. The evidence supports that James Kincaid and Janet Simpson were the parents of Thomas Kincaid of Yonderhaugh. I am not 100% certain but I believe that Thomas (m. Elizabeth Chiesly) was the son of John Kincaid and Jean Kincaid. James Kincaid in Dalgrain was married to Helen Scott and their son James was married to Elizabeth Crawford. I believe I provided the information for this for the vetting of Gene's line. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomasKincaidandElizabeth Chielsy > This connection of Thomas Kincaid/Elizabeth Chieslie as son of James/Janet > is also on p. 125 of Bill Kincaid's book in the chapter on "The Falkirk > Kincaids." I recall that you disagreed with something about this > family...was it that James Kincaid/Janet Simpson were not the parents of > Thomas, or that James Kincaid/Janet Simpson was not James Kincaid in > Dalgreen, the Jacobite, who supported Bonnie Prince Charlie, the young > pretender, in 1745? > > Barbara > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter A. Kincaid > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 7:31 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas > KincaidandElizabeth Chielsy > > Just because a website gives Thomas Kincaid's parents > as James Kincaid and Janet Simpson does not mean > it is true. The evidence I have certainly does not > indicate this. James and Janet's son is another Thomas. > > Peter > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 6:36 PM > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid > andElizabeth Chielsy > > >> Sue, I agree with you that it would be good to get another sample from >> this >> Kincaid family of Falkirk. >> >> The Family Search website gives James Kincaid (son of Thomas) and Janet >> Simson/Simpson (daughter of Alexander) as the parents of Thomas >> Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly. Which Thomas was the possible father of >> James/Janet who married >> Aug. 7, 1730 in Falkirk, Sterling, Scotland according to church records. >> >> Barbara >> > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am sorry Peter, but I don't remember ever calling you sexist. It was the comment you wrote which SOUNDED sexist which I may have misinterpreted. I can apologize for misinterpreting what was written, because I know from all our dealings over the years that you are certainly not sexist. Also, I am still a very big fan of your intelligence and knowledge. On the current thread, I still do not know the answer to my question of the children being John or Thomas. I'll have to wait until Lesley can weigh in. Ruth In a message dated 12/11/2010 12:20:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I in no way got this impression when publicly called me sexist this summer when you misread my comments about Arabella Kincaid of Kincaid. I asked for an apology but did not get one. I'm not sure how I could be a fan in such a situation. I do not claim to know a lot more than the average person here. I simply take time to look things up and know how to do this reasonably well. I know I tend to be on the defensive (due to many previous attacks on me) and this may cause me to misread things. However, when I saw the message asking me for the source for Thomas Kincaid having married Elizabeth Chiesly in a thread about a person being vetted to them, I saw this as someone just wanting to give me a hard time. It all just seemed silly to me. However, my reply certainly had the tone of my bad mood and I do apologize to all for that. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn KincaidtoThomasKincaidandElizabeth Chie... > Of course I am a fan of yours. You have more knowledge in oa single one of > your brain cells than I do in my whole brain. But my point was Lesley gave > the sources that the children were named John. You said they were named > Thomas but did not give your sources. One of you is right and one is > wrong. > > I am guilty of not following the entire thread. However, because there > was > such a blatant discrepancy between what you both said, and she gave the > sources but you did not, I hardly think my question regarding sources was > silly. Thank you for the put down. > > Ruth > > > > In a message dated 12/11/2010 11:15:20 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > I know I'm not a fan of Ruth's anymore but this is a > silly question. Has she not read the posts in this > thread or even the subject line? The sources are > in the posts given. I was simply pointing out that > Lesley made an error in giving the name John > when she should have been stating the name Thomas. > There was no John marrying Elizabeth Chiesly. > It was Thomas and it is his parents she is talking > about. > > Peter > > > > > From: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas > Kincaid&Elizabeth Chi... > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:52:15 -0500 (EST) > > > Peter, > > What are your sources for the children born 17 May 1730 and 11 Jul 1731 > being named Thomas and not John? And what is your source for a Thomas > instead > of John marrying Elizabeth Chiesly? > > Ruth > > > In a message dated 12/11/2010 8:37:48 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Except that the 17-May-1730 and 11-Jul-1731 baptisms she > cites were not for a son John but for sons named Thomas. It > wasThomas Kincaid who married Elizabeth Chiesly not John > Kincaid. > > Just to be clear, even if a mother was a Kincaid when > we do Y-DNA testing it is the father's DNA that is being > passed on. There would be no Y-DNA trace of the mother > in a participant today. > > Unfortunately, it is quite likely that the participant has a > separate paternal lineage than the ancestor in question > because they match no other Kincaid. Until a matching > result is found for a participant in another branch of Thomas, > one assumes that the participant's Y-DNA is not representative > of the Kincaids of Dalderse or Grange or Candie. Legally > the participant represents the line but genetic representation is > another matter. > > Peter To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca id%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I know I'm not a fan of Ruth's anymore but this is a silly question. Has she not read the posts in this thread or even the subject line? The sources are in the posts given. I was simply pointing out that Lesley made an error in giving the name John when she should have been stating the name Thomas. There was no John marrying Elizabeth Chiesly. It was Thomas and it is his parents she is talking about. Peter From: [email protected] Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid&Elizabeth Chi... Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:52:15 -0500 (EST) Peter, What are your sources for the children born 17 May 1730 and 11 Jul 1731 being named Thomas and not John? And what is your source for a Thomas instead of John marrying Elizabeth Chiesly? Ruth In a message dated 12/11/2010 8:37:48 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Except that the 17-May-1730 and 11-Jul-1731 baptisms she cites were not for a son John but for sons named Thomas. It wasThomas Kincaid who married Elizabeth Chiesly not John Kincaid. Just to be clear, even if a mother was a Kincaid when we do Y-DNA testing it is the father's DNA that is being passed on. There would be no Y-DNA trace of the mother in a participant today. Unfortunately, it is quite likely that the participant has a separate paternal lineage than the ancestor in question because they match no other Kincaid. Until a matching result is found for a participant in another branch of Thomas, one assumes that the participant's Y-DNA is not representative of the Kincaids of Dalderse or Grange or Candie. Legally the participant represents the line but genetic representation is another matter. Peter

Of course I am a fan of yours. You have more knowledge in oa single one of your brain cells than I do in my whole brain. But my point was Lesley gave the sources that the children were named John. You said they were named Thomas but did not give your sources. One of you is right and one is wrong. I am guilty of not following the entire thread. However, because there was such a blatant discrepancy between what you both said, and she gave the sources but you did not, I hardly think my question regarding sources was silly. Thank you for the put down. Ruth In a message dated 12/11/2010 11:15:20 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I know I'm not a fan of Ruth's anymore but this is a silly question. Has she not read the posts in this thread or even the subject line? The sources are in the posts given. I was simply pointing out that Lesley made an error in giving the name John when she should have been stating the name Thomas. There was no John marrying Elizabeth Chiesly. It was Thomas and it is his parents she is talking about. Peter From: [email protected] Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid&Elizabeth Chi... Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:52:15 -0500 (EST) Peter, What are your sources for the children born 17 May 1730 and 11 Jul 1731 being named Thomas and not John? And what is your source for a Thomas instead of John marrying Elizabeth Chiesly? Ruth In a message dated 12/11/2010 8:37:48 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Except that the 17-May-1730 and 11-Jul-1731 baptisms she cites were not for a son John but for sons named Thomas. It wasThomas Kincaid who married Elizabeth Chiesly not John Kincaid. Just to be clear, even if a mother was a Kincaid when we do Y-DNA testing it is the father's DNA that is being passed on. There would be no Y-DNA trace of the mother in a participant today. Unfortunately, it is quite likely that the participant has a separate paternal lineage than the ancestor in question because they match no other Kincaid. Until a matching result is found for a participant in another branch of Thomas, one assumes that the participant's Y-DNA is not representative of the Kincaids of Dalderse or Grange or Candie. Legally the participant represents the line but genetic representation is another matter. Peter To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca id%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Barbara Yes, I have looked at the 26-Jun-1730 marriage of John & Janet (OPR 479/00 0080 0081 Falkirk reads James Kincaid son of Thomas in Dalderse to Janet Simpson daughter of Ales Simpson in Kerse). The birth record of their son John (OPR 470/00 0030 0525 Falkirk 11-Jul-1731 witness Alex Simpson and John Kincaid) But ...... On 24-Jun-1725 (OPR 479/00 0080 0040 Falkirk) a John Kincaid married a Jean Kincaid (in Grange son to John Kincaid in Candie to Jean Kincaid daughter of Thomas Kincaid in Dalderse. The birth record of their son John (OPR 479/00 0030 0511 Falkirk 17-May-1730 witness John Kincaid and Tom Watts. Both John Kincaid's born 1730 and 1731 could well be the husband of Elizabeth Chiesly (Their wedding OPR's do not show any parents names) - Both possible fathers of John Kincaid gave their children similar names, making research difficult. Though it does look like the common link may be Thomas Kincaid (father of James & Jean) from Dalderse. This would mean the DNA from Thomas in Dalderse could be from the Paternal line if John & Janet were parents or Maternal if John & Jean were. Then, if the parents of John kincaid born 1730/1731 were John and Jean, that means I'm looking at a line from John Kincaid in Candie ??? I think this would then be a different Kincaid line to Gene from the Kincaid DNA database. Thinking logically, following Scottish tradition of naming the 1st born male child after the child's grandfather, consider John & Jean being the parents, they had seven children, the first born son was Thomas, John's father was named John. The second son was named Alexander, Jean's father was named Thomas (clearly no tradition in this family) James & Janet had 13 children and their eldest was named Thomas, James' father was named Thomas, Janet's father was Alexander and she named her 2nd son Alexander. So to finding other possible DNA samples; Thomas and Elizabeth had 3 other children besides John (daughter Elizabeth and son Thomas who died in infancy - so they are of no help) Their son Alexander (1764-1854) married Jean Clark, they had 6 children (1) Thomas 1790-1794 (2) Marion 1792- ? (3) James 1794- 1855 Orchard Hill married twice, Agnes White and Anne Henderson and only had daughters. (4) Thomas (Captain Thomas Kincaid 1796-1884) married Anne Henderson, his family is well documented via his 2nd son's shipping business John G Kincaid & Co in Renfrewshire, and his other son's travels to Patagonia Buenos Aires. Note, I have not been able to find any of this family line researching their family tree, and have had no contact with anyone who may be able to help (can't really phone up from Australia and say "G'day , sorry to bother you but I think you are related to my son from way back in the 1700's and would you mind just submitting your DNA for me" ...... (5) Alexander Kincaid born 1798, I had thought he married Elizabeth Smith and that it was his son who became Major John Smith-Kincaid, but recent communication with Eric Kincaid's family has now thrown a question about this line with the possibility of 2 Alexander & Elizabeths. (6) John (1801-1808). Interesting article at http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/corporate_neighbourhood/housing/policies_ and_strategies/PDFs/dawson/april_2006_newsletter.pdf The farmer occupying Dalderse Mill Farm in 1876 were the Kincaid family and in 1810 it was Thomas McGregor and he was succeed by Andrew Mackie who died in 1831. The farmer at Dalderse Farm in 1871 was Robert Buchan and his farmland appears to be the area that was the grounds of Dalderse Mansion House, north and west of Bainsford Burn. In 1876, about halfway between Dalderse Farmhouse and the Forth & Clyde Canal on Abbot's Road, a large house Orchard Hall was built and it had quite large grounds. The owners were Alex. Vernon Macall, Fleet Paymaster of H.M. Navy, Southsea, his wife, Jane Clark Kincaid or Macall and her sister, Margaret Kincaid. However by 1891, Margaret Walker Forrester was apparently living at Orchard Hall. Note - Jane Clark Kincaid was the daughter of James Kincaid and Agnes Wilson born in 1846, her father died at Orchard Hill and she had a sister Margaret. Back to John Kincaid born 1730/1731, the common grandfather was Thomas Kincaid of Dalderse to both possible sets of John's parents. All suggestions, comments etc gratefully received. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Saturday, 11 December 2010 8:37 AM To: [email protected] Subject: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 429 Today's Topics: 1. Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's (Barbara Van Hout) 2. Re: Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chielsy (Barbara Van Hout) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:29:11 -0500 From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> Subject: [KINCAID] Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" http://www.electricscotland.com/history/records/scottishrecordso31scotuoft.p df There is a David Kincaid, wife Elizabeth or Isabel Cockburn, with a son John Kincaid in these records. Also mentioned are Cuthbert Kincaid, James Kincaid, Sr. & Jr., Stephen Kincaid, and Edward Kincaid, Burgess of Edinburgh. The list is on p. 113 of the above link to the ?Protocol Book of Gilbert Grote, 1552-1573.? How were the Edinburgh Kincaids related to the James Kincaid family of Campsie? Barbara ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:36:40 -0500 From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chielsy To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Sue, I agree with you that it would be good to get another sample from this Kincaid family of Falkirk. The Family Search website gives James Kincaid (son of Thomas) and Janet Simson/Simpson (daughter of Alexander) as the parents of Thomas Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly. Which Thomas was the possible father of James/Janet who married Aug. 7, 1730 in Falkirk, Sterling, Scotland according to church records. Barbara -----Original Message----- From: Sue Liedtke Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 5:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas kincaidand Elizabeth Chielsy I agree that the paper work is excellant. Lesley has worked very hard to get all her ducks in a row but I am still hesitent to mark the line as fully vetted without a close match. The problem is not that this isn't a true family line but that a vetted line says that the DNA profile is that of the given ancestor. That is a primary reason for vetting. In this case we don't know if this is Thomas's DNA profile or not. There may have been an unrecorded non-Kincaid paternal event somewhere along the line. It is not just that Martyn doesn't match Gene. If he had matched anyone in any Group, even someone in the ungrouped section if it could be shown that the ancestral lines did not merge in recent times, then I would not a see a problem. All vetted lines have a near DNA match. We held off vetting #168724 until a confirming DNA sample could be tested. Many participants have had to find someone for testing in order to isolate a mutation before they could be vetted to a specific ancestor. I know that Lesley has struck out in trying to get a DNA sample from the line of one of Charles' other sons. I am wondering if it is possible to trace a line down from John? Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don W Kincaid" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaidand Elizabeth Chielsy I believe Lesley has done an excellent job in documenting the lineage of Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley. There are not many who are documented as well as this one. One of the other well documented ones is for Gene Kincaid, #23547 who shows back to Falkirk Parish in Scotland like Martyn shows so I understand Sue's apprehension on vetting Martyn since his dna does not match with 23547. With the excellent documentation for Martyn, I believe we should show him as vetted. One big reason I believe we should vet Martyn is that there could easily be 2 lines of Kincaid's in Falkirk Parish just as we have found 2 different lines of Kincaid's living next to each other in the Colonies in several instances. If we did not have another participant showing to Falkirk Parish, would anyone have an objection to Martyn's lineage being vetted? I doubt anyone would, given the excellent documentation. If vetted, I would not object to having a note stating that dna results have not confirmed Martyn's lineage to Falkirk or a similar statement. Don, # 1427 ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Liedtke To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaidand Elizabeth Chielsy This is the 2nd call for comments on the post seeking to vet #186057 to Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly. I have asked that comments be directed to the paper trail as a separate entity from the DNA as I have a question as to the advisability of vetting a line without a confirming DNA sample from the furthest ancestor. Normally it takes 2 identical samples from the lines of different sons of a given ancestor to prove the DNA of that ancestor. In most cases we can get around this because we have identical DNA from other Kincaids whose ancestors pre-date the given ancestor or could be descended from the same ancestor by a different son. In cases where there is an unexpected significant mutation, that mutation needs to be isolated before the line can be vetted. As an example:49289 has an unexpected mutation to 9 at marker 15. This is a significant mutation as it is used to separate A-2 Kincaids from A-1 Kincaids, however no other Kincaid (and there are many participants) in the immediate geographic region has this mutation. #49289 could not be vetted until #135736 who does not have the mutation could be vetted to a common ancestor (note other unvetted lines from this ancestor do not have the mutation). In the case of #186057 we do not have identical DNA from anyone else in the project. While Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly may very well be represented by #186057's DNA, there is also the possibility that an undisclosed non-Kincaid paternal event occurred somewhere along the line. This needs to be ruled out with confirming DNA. Non the less, it would be of immense value to know if the paper research is sound i.e if the DNA were confirmed could this line be vetted. This would facilitate finding a participant from a different son's line to be tested for confirming DNA. Please look over the paper trail and comment. Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Cains" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:31 AM Subject: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaid and Elizabeth Chielsy Vetting Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley Martyn Kincaid DNA kit #186057 Researcher : Lesley Sharon Cains, mother of Martyn Stuart Kincaid and ex wife of Alan John Kincaid ___________________________________________________________ Martyn Stuart Kincaid 'Living' b.1987, Lilydale,Victoria Australia not married. Proven by; Australian birth certificate (original available) for Martyn Stuart Kincaid; parents listed as Alan John Kincaid and Lesley Sharon Kincaid nee Cains. Personal knowledge; I know my son is the son of Alan John Kincaid. ____________________________________________________________ Alan John Kincaid 'Living" b.1957 Carlton Victoria Australia m Lesley Sharon Cains in 1986 at Numurkah Victoria Australia (certificate available). Son of Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. Proven by; Australian birth certificate for Alan John Kincaid listing parents as Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. Personal knowledge; I personally know the parents and siblings of Alan John Kincaid all of whom acknowledge him as the son of Bertram Langley Kincaid. The parents and 3 of the 4 siblings of Alan John Kincaid are all still living. The siblings of Alan John Kincaid are Robert Charles Kincaid, Karen Eileen Kincaid, Helen Jean Kincaid and Heather Kincaid (1963-1963). _____________________________________________________________ Bertram Langley Kincaid 'Living' b.1930 Daylesford, Victoria Australia m Dorothy Dawn Nash 16 October 1955 Camberwell Victoria Australia. Son of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters (both deceased). Proven by; Australian birth certificate for Bertram Langley Kincaid listing his parents as Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters, as confirmed by Bertram Langley Kincaid who resides in Victoria Australia. Australian death certificate's (copies available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid (nee Waters) listing Bertram Langley Kincaid as their son, and also Bertram's siblings John (dec'd), Eileen (dec'd), Valma and Arthur David. Australian Electoral Roll records 1954 showing Bertram Langley Kincaid living at the home of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid with his siblings Arthur and John. Springvale Victoria Australia crematorium records for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid. Website look up; http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php?page=search&s_res=GO&cid=330&Given_N ames=&Surname=kincaid&Surname_ex=&hw_num=100 Personal knowledge; I personally knew both parents of Bertram Langley Kincaid and attended their funeral services. I personally knew both Valma Jean Kincaid and Arthur David Kincaid (both now deceased) siblings of Bertram Langley Kincaid. The family also told me of Eileen Hilda Kincaid, sister of Bertram Langley Kincaid who married William St Dennis and migrated to the United States, her social security death index ssn 037-20-3410 Rhode Island date of death August 1976, and California passenger & Crew list showing Eileen St Denis & William St Denis arriving in California 12 Sep 1946, with Eileen on an Australian passport with notation of her maiden name confirms what the family have related to me. Alan John Kincaid also told of Bertram's deceased brother John Charles Kincaid who died alone following an accident in his home in 1978 as proven by his obituary and Springvale Crematorium records. ____________________________________________________________ Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid b. 7 January 1902 Daylesford Victoria Australia m Sarah Rita Waters 24 March 1922 Mildura Victoria Australia (certificate available). Son of Charles Langley Kincaid and Elizabeth Nelson. Proven by; Australian birth record #2384 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid DOB as 7 January 1902 listing his parents as Charles Kincaid (a Miner aged 42) and Elizabeth Kincaid, formerly Nelson (aged 42) living at Eganstown Victoria, who were married 13 April 1891. Siblings shown on the certificate are Grace Cowling Kincaid, Alice Kincaid, Eliza Kincaid, Clarice Kincaid and Helena Kincaid (dec'd). Australian marriage record #558 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters married on 24 March 1922 at St Margaret's Vicarage Mildura, listing Arthur's father as Charles Langley Kincaid, a Miner as his father and Elizabeth Nelson as his mother. Australian death record #12575/83 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid date of death 6 June 1983 at Heatherton Victoria Australia, retired aged 81 years and born in Daylesford Victoria. Fathers name showing as Charles Kincaid and mother as Elizabeth Kincaid (maiden name Nelson), certified by his wife Sarah (known as Rita) Kincaid. This certificate also shows Arthur was 20 years old when he married Sarah Rita Waters in Mildura and that he was still married at the time of his death, children listed as Arthur aged 61 yrs, Valma aged 59 yrs, Eileen (deceased), John (deceased), Bertram aged 53 years. Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1924, 1931, 1936, 1937 and 1949 detailing his address and family members (available to view on Ancestry.com). An on-line Australian newspaper Archive record detailing the death of his sister Clarice Leona Kincaid and recording that her body was identified by her brother Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid reads; "Found dead in the bush, died from exposure, exhaustion and natural causes (refer to inquest & newpaper articles), VPRS 24/P Unit 1031 File 92 Clarice Leona Kincaid died on or about 28 Dec 1922 from exhaustion during the first stages of labour. Body identified by brother - Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid (stonemason) residing at Victoria park Daylesford. Arthur Angove aged 16 from Daylesord was one of those that found her along with Frank Stevens and James Langdon who were bird nesting on Angus Hill, on the Cornish Reef". (ref; http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1871036?searchTerm=clarice+kinc aid). Springvale Victoria Crematorium records showing that he was cremated 8 June 1983. Personal knowledge; I personally knew Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and visited his home with Alan John Kincaid, I also attended his funeral service. I identified the address' given in the Australian Electoral Roll's from my visits to his home, and the earlier address' from when I took Sarah Rita Kincaid back To Daylesford and she showed me her old home. Sarah Rita Kincaid also took me to her own parents' grave, explaining that Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid was a stonemason by trade and made her parents tombstone and many others in the Kyneton & Daylesford area. Sarah told me they had named their son Bertram Langley Kincaid after Arthur's father Charles Langley Kincaid. _______________________________________________________________________ Charles Langley Kincaid b.21 Apr 1859 Mt Egerton Victoria Australia m Elizabeth Nelson 30 April 1891 Daylesford Victoria (certificate available). Son of Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Rae. Proven by; Australian birth record #154 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid DOB as 21 April 1859 at Mount Egerton Victoria, details show father as Thomas William Kincaid a Miner in aged 36 years and born Cape of Good Hope, marriage details on this record for Thomas William Kincaid given as "1845 Stepney London", other children "Thomas Kincaid and Alconda Degney Kincaid". Mother as Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae, aged 31 years from Waterford Ireland and signed by Thomas William Kincaid, father. Australian marriage record #4032 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid and Eliza Nelson 30 April 1891 at the Bible Christian parsonage Daylesford. This record details Charles aged as 32 years as son of Thomas William Kincaid a Miner, and Elizabeth Rae. Australian death record #1813 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid, a Miner died 28 May 1931 at the District Hospital Daylesford aged 72 years, his parents are given as Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Kincaid formerly Rae. It shows Charles was buried on 30 May 1931 at Daylesford cemetery and that he was born in Eganstown and had lived in Victoria his whole life. His children are listed as Grace 39 years, Alice 38 years, Myrtle 35 years, Clarice (deceased) and Arthur 29 years. Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1914, 1924 and 1928 detailing his address and family members. Obituary; (1) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Friday, May 29, 1931 FUNERAL NOTICE KINCAID -The friends of the late Mr. Charles Langley Kincaid are respectfully informed that his remains will be interred in the Dayiesford Cemetery TOMORROW (Saturday) May 30. The Funeral is appointed to leave the mortuary parlour of R. F. Verey at 1.30 pm. R. F. Verey, Funeral Director. Phone 245. (2) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Tuesday 2 June, 1931 OBITUARY CHARLES LANGLEY KINCAID The death occurred on Thursday morning last, of Mr Charles Langley Kincaid, after a long illness, at the age of 72 years. The late Mr. Kincaid was born in Eganstown district, and had resided in this locality all his life. For many years he was connected to the mining industry. Mrs. Kincaid and an adult family of three daughters and one son survive to mourn their loss, one daughter having predeceased Mr. Kincaid some years ago. The funeral took place on Saturday afternoon, and was largely attended. The casket was carried by Messrs. M. Dickson, W. Spear, W. Burnett (sons-in-law), C. Nelson (nephew), A. Dickson and J. Dickson. Rev. S. D. Yarrington conducted the service at the graveside, and the funeral arrangements were in the hands of Mr. R. F. Verey. Grave; Grave C of E 4 C 6 In loving memory of Charles Langley Kincaid, Elizabeth Kincaid, and Grace Cowling Dickson died 18 Feb, 1982. The personal knowledge of his grandson Bertram Langley Kincaid, who has confirmed the above for me. ______________________________________________________________ Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m (i) Elizabeth Catherine Barrett on 18 May 1845 Stepney London (certificate available). Elizabeth Catherine Barratt died 13 March 1850. This marriage produced one child, Thomas Hardie Kincaid b. 16 February 1849 (certificate available) Rotherhithe England and died 3 February 1929 at Rotherhithe London UK. Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m (ii) Eliza Rae on 16 Nov 1850 Victoria Australia Son of Charles Kincaid and Hillegonda Sophia Row. Proven by; Beaufort West, South Africa Baptism register on microfilm number 5-39, "Child Thomas William born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823. Parents Charles Kincaid, Hilegonda [sic] Sophia Roow [sic]. Witnesses Joseph Cleaver, Susanna Frederica Roow [sic], Willem Roow[sic], Anna Roow[sic]". (photograph of document ordered from GISA and available November 2010). Beaufort West South Africa Baptism record, born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823 as per the SA Genealogies by Lombard & Hesse, page 277 (this record purchased from GISA, Genealogy Institute of South Africa) and also provided by contact with Joy Roy (a descendant of Thomas William Kincaid and professional researcher), Heather McAllister and Tessa King (Administrators for Ancestry24.com). Details taken from the - UK Marriage record for Thomas William Kincaid (of full age, a Mariner Chief Officer - son of Charles Kincaid, a sadler) to Elizabeth Catherine Barratt (with consent of parents) on 18 May 1845 at St Thomas' Church Stepney UK, witnessed by William Brown & Sophia Barratt (copy available). Taken from the - UK Birth record (copy available) of Thomas Hardie Kincaid 16 February 1849, father given as Thomas William Kincaid (Master Mariner) mother as Elizabeth Catherine Kincaid formerly Barratt. Taken from the - Australian Death record #14665 (copy on available) 14 December 1903 at Leonards Hill Victoria Australia, Thomas William Kincaid aged 80 years. His father was recorded as John Kincaid, profession unknown, information on this record was detailed as being provided by his son John Rae Kincaid. He was buried on 16 December 1903 at Eganstown Public cemetery, and shows he had lived 50 years in Victoria. Place of birth given as Cape Town, Cape Colony South Africa, married to Eliza Rae (not living). The children of Thomas William Kincaid are listed as Charles 44 years, Janet 42 years, John 40 years, Margaret 38 years, Annie 36 years, Isabella 34 years, Eliza 32 years, Thomas William 30 years and Alconda (deceased). The Australian birth records (copies available) for the Children of Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae for Charles Langley 1859, John Rae 1863, Annie Eliza 1868, Elizabeth 1873, Thomas William 1875 all detailing the father and his place of birth as The cape of Good Hope. The birth certificate's for Thomas William Kincaid's children; John Rae Kincaid in 1863 details Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae married in Melbourne 1851. On Annie Eliza's record it details 'Melbourne', on Elizabeth's as 16 November 1850 and on Thomas' 1875 birth record as 26 November 1850. Australian death record (copy available) for daughter Alconda Kincaid aged 14 years 27 May 1870 in Eganstown details her parents as Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid, and that Alconda was born in Newstead, Melbourne Victoria Australia. The Australian marriage certificate for daughter Janet Hardie Kincaid (copy available) 25 October 1887 shows her parents as Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid nee Rae, on her death record in 1933 (copy available) her parents were given as John Kincaid (a Miner) and Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae as provided by S Brown, authorised agent When youngest son Thomas William Kincaid died in 1959 at aged 84 his parents were listed as unknown. Australian 1903 Electoral Roll showing Thomas William Kincaid living at Leonards Hill Victoria, occupation Miner. Australian Rate Books - Mt Franklin Victoria from 1872 - 1902 Australian Newspaper Archive - Daylesford Advocate Thursday 17 December 1903 - The late Mr Kincaid; The remains of Mr T W Kincaid were interred in the Eganstown Public Cemetery yesterday. The funeral started from his late residence at Leonard's Hill and comprised of mourners in eight conveyances and seven horsemen. The bearers were Messers Kramer, Aldridge, McKidrew (2), Ladigus and Blackwell, Mr Taylor read the burial service. Messer's Verey Bros had charge of the mortuary arrangements. _____________________________________________________ Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (i) Hillegonda Sophia Row on 3 August 1818 Cape of Good Hope (Hillegonda born 1800, died 4 February 1831). Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (ii) Christina Johanna Marian Sporkman, widow of John Herbert 12 October 1846 Cape of Good Hope (copy available). Son of John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff Proven by; Scottish OPR record 487/0010 0356 (copy on available) detailing "John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff, their son named Charles was born 3 May 1791 and baptised 8 May, witness' Thomas Kincaid and John Gibb". Website - Old Polmont Church (note - please note that not all details on this website are accurate eg Sir John Kincaid given as never married, he in fact married Louisa Frisbee a month before his death). refer www.polmontold.org.uk/hist1845part06.html >From the list of passengers arriving in South Africa on board the Ship 'The Brilliant' in 1817, Charles Kincaid was part of a group of Scottish Artisans organised by Benjamin Moodie. >From the Book - British Residents at the Cape 1795-1819, by David Phillip page 222, in part reads - "Kincaid, Charles, saddler single arrived 4 June 1817 Table Bay, in Brilliant ex Downs under Moodies direction. 2 August 1817 has commenced business (saddle, cap and harness maker). 3 August 1818 marriage of CK of Falkirk, Stirling aged 27 to Hillegonda Sophia d,o, Robt. Row aged 18. 6 June 1819 baptised their son John Robert. 18 March 1821 baptised of their son Charles Langley". >From the National Archives of South Africa - in 1818 'memorials received, Charles Kincaid requesting permission to remain in the Colony. >From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid aged 27, birthplace Falkirk Stirling married at The English Church to Hillegonda Sophia Row aged 18 born at The Cape on 3 August 1818 as published in The Capetown Gazette. Marriage certificate (copy available) Charles Kincaid (widower, occupation Sadler) married in Paarl South Africa to Christina Johanna Maria Sporkman (widow). Death certificate #2505 (copy available) Charles Kincaid born in Scotland, married died on 5 March 1866. Lists the children of his 2nds wife's previous marriage and John Robert Kincaid as son with Hillegonda Sophia. >From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid will filed 1866. >From the South African Commercial Advisor - (1) 1826, a daughter of Mr C Kincaid baptised Jessy, (2) 1829 a son of Mr Charles Kincaid baptised Alexander Row, (3) 1831 February 4, Sophia Kincaid wife of Mr C Kincaid died aged 30 years and 6 months. Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill Kincaid" Reference; pamphlet obtained in full from The National Archives of South Africa "The Kincaid Family in South Africa" by JJ Scheepers and confirmed by Leonard Kincaid who resides in South Africa son of Joy Scheepers & Donald Kincaid descendants of John Robert Kincaid b.1819 at the Cape of Good Hope. _________________________________________________________________ John Kincaid b.10 June 1762 Polmont Stirlingshire Scotland m Margaret Gaff (marriage on OPR's shows 20 Nov 1784 Bothkennar & 16 Dec 1784 as the Proclamation Polmont for both parties) Son of Thomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chiesly (Cheesley) Proven by; Scottish OPR Baptism record 487/0010 0084 13 June 1762, "Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chiesly their son named John was born 10 June and baptised 13 June, witness' Alexander and Robert Kincaid and John Clark". (Copy Available) Scottish OPR marriage record 473/000010/0260 20th November 1784 marriage bans, naming John Kincaid if Dalbeath. "(copy available). Falkirk Churchyard Grave 184, John Kincaid death 11 February 1794 aged 33 years. Reference; book - Mitchell, John Fowler. Monumental inscriptions (pre 1855) in East Stirlingshire. Edinburgh: Scottish Genealogy Society, 1972]. "John Kincaid, 1st son of Thos Kincaid & Eliz Chislie, age 33, at Carronflats on 11 February 1794; John's wife, Margt Gaff, age 85, on 5 February 1844; John's 1st son, Thos Kincaid, age 63, at Glasgow on 31 December 1848; John's youngest son, Alex Kincaid, age 17, having drowned by shipwreck on coast of Durham on 27 January 1806; John's 2nd son, John Kincaid, 76, at Hastings on 23 April 1862, (having entered the army in 1809 & served throughout the Peninsular war with Rifle Brigade, knighted 1852, senior exon of HM Royal Bodyguard & for many years government inspector of prisons & factories for Scotland); John's (Margt Gaff) only daughter, Margt Kincaid, age 71, widow of the late Peter Hardie, merchant in Leith, on 6 October 1863; and John's 3rd son, Charles Kincaid, age 73, at Pearl Cape of Good Hope on 5 March 1866" (Note - Information provided by both Peter A Kincaid, Canada and also Ann Taylor, nee Kincaid England UK and confirmed verbally that this Book available from the National Library of Australia, Canberra Australia, copies of relevant extracts pending). Reference; made available courtesy of Peter A Kincaid, Canada. "John Kincaid, son of Thomas Kincaid, farmer, Newlands, as heir to Alexander Chiesly, Tenant, Newlands, his grandfather, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbeith, with Ferry Boat & fishing in Carron, & Teinds, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Chan. Oct. 7. 1788. P.R. 30. 184. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1394. Registered 20 October 1788]". "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, as heir to Elizabeth Chiesly, his mother, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, and Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Cl. Con. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30.185. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1395. Registered 20 October 1788]". "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, gets Resig. ad Rem. Oct. 18. 1788, -of part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, & Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Proc. resig. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30. 186. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1396. Registered 20 October 1788]". "The Trustees of John Kincaid of Dalbaith, seised, Mar. 22. 1800, -in an Oxengate of land of Bothkennar called Dalbaith with the Ferry Boat and part of the fishing of the Water of Carron, and Teinds; (&2 Oxengates of land of the lands of Bothkennar in warrandice), par. Bothkennar; -under burden of ?50 each to John, Alexander, and Charles Kincaid, and 500 Merks Scots to Margaret Kincaid, younger children of the said John Kincaid, &c; -on Disp. & Settlement by the said John Kincaid, & Margaret Gaff, his spouse, Sept. 6. 1793. P.R. 36.35. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 3904. Registered 20 May 1800]". Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill Kincaid" Reference; Book - "Adventures of The Rifle Brigade" by sibling Sir John Kincaid detailing his family, father John Kincaid. ___________________________________________________________________ Thomas Kincaid b. circa 1731 Falkirk Scotland m Elizabeth Chiesly 12 July 1761. Son of (unknown - possible either of James Kincaid & Janet Simson, or John Kincaid & Jean Kincaid) Proven by; Marriage record - Scottish OPR Marriage Ban 479/00008 00237 10 July 1761 Falkirk, and Scottish OPR Marriage proclamation Polmont 487/00002 0016 (copies available) this record names Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chielsy but neither of their parents. _________________________________________________________________ Other resources used; Ancestry.com record search for BDM records, Census returns, travel records, Australian Electoral Rolls. Ancestry24.com for South African research re BDM's, Wills and application to remain in the Colony. Ancestry.Co.ZA to view & purchase South African death records. Scotslands People (www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) record search for OPR records re BDM's, Census & Wills. GISA (Genealogical Institute of South Africa) for South African family history records. NAAIRS for South African records re BDM's, Wills and application to remain in the Colony etc. Book - British Residents at The Cape 1795-1819 by David Phillip. On-Line Book - Extracts of Marriages at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821. On-Line Book - Extracts of Baptisms at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821 192.com for UK contacts. Springvale Crematorium Records for confirming Australian deaths. The Australian National Archives. The Australian National Library. The Victorian Government Public Records Office. The Victorian Registry of Birth, Deaths & Marriages. The Daylesford Family History Society. The Australian WW2 Nominal Roll. The Kincaid family living in Australia. Trove - Australian newspapers on line. London newspaper archives on line. Edinburgh newspaper archives on line. The Genealogical Society of South Africa historical newspapers on line. Google. Note - Australia does not have census returns as these are not archived after the government has collated the data it requires. __________________________________________________________________________ Footnote's - John Kincaid & Margaret Gaff had 5 children; Son Thomas, a Merchant baptised 30 October 1785, died 31 December 1848. Married Isabella Balloch 17 January 1818 and produced 5 sons and 5 daughters per the OPR records. OPR & BDM records show that 4 of the sons died without marrying, and John living in Lancashire unmarried aged 60 yrs in 1881. Son John Kincaid baptised 29 July 1787, died 23 April 1862. Married Louisa Frisbee 19 March 1862, no children. Son Alexander christened 7 June 1789, died in a shipwreck 27 January 1806. Never married, no children. Son Charles as detailed above in vetting. Daughter Margaret christened 22 July 1795, died 6 October 1863. Married Peter Hardie 8 March 1811 and produced 4 sons and 1 daughter. Both her son's Thomas Kincaid Hardie and John Hardie travelled to Australia in search of gold. Thomas married Janet Hoyle in Victoria 1848, returning to the UK to 'live off his own means' as a 'retired Australian Squatter'. John married Elizabeth Hoyle in Victoria Australia 1841, this couple also returned to the UK. Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisly's son Alexander b.1764 married Jean Clark. This couple had 6 children, their son Thomas b.1796 was 'Captain Thomas Kincaid - Shipmaster' who married Ann Henderson. Two of Thomas & Ann's sons died overseas - Alexander b.1839 died 1892 in Buenos Ayres and James b.1903 died in 1903 Patagonia Argentina. Their 2nd eldest of their son's , John George Kincaid born in 1840 founded J G Kincaid Shipping in Inverclyde. John G Kincaid married Margaret Grierson, their eldest son Thomas Lennox Kincaid b.1877 travelled to Australia settling in NSW. He married there in 1936 and died in December 1940, (His death certificate is available). His wife's son by her 1st marriage, Hilton Grenville Marcuso who had links to the notorious Kings Cross criminal underworld, took the Kincaid surname, and died in NSW Australia in 1975. Hillegonda Sophia Row, wife of Charles Kincaid - was born at The Cape of Good Hope in 1800 and dies at aged 31 on 4 February 1831 as listed in the South African Commercial Adviser. Hillegonda was the daughter of Englishman Robert Row and Helena Wilhelma Aspeling. Helena & Robert married at The Cape on 14 April 1800, she was the widow of Lambrecht Van der Woord and had two children by him (Johanna Louise and Jan Christian). Helena and Robert had 3 other children; Susannah Frederika Row 1802 - 1831. Susannah married Joseph Cleaver (soap manufacturer) in 1823 at Beaufort West and this couple were witness' to the marriage of Hillegonda & Charles Kincaid's son Thomas William Kincaid's baptism at the Dutch Reformed Church in Beaufort West August 1823. They had one child, a daughter Ann born in 1824 and died in 1825. Joseph Cleaver died in 1824. Johanna Margaretha Row 1802-1848. Johanna married Samuel Mollett in 1834. Robert James Row 1809-1839. Hillegonda's mother was Hillegonda Kotze also born at The Cape of Good Hope as was her mother before her. It was Hillegonda Rows Gr Gr grandparents that came to The Cape from Germany and The Nederland's, and her grandfather Erik Aspeling from Sweden. Charles Kincaid & Hillegonda Row's 1st born son was John Robert Kincaid born 1819. He married Frances Dorothea Fison 10th July 1846, and this couple had six children; Charles John Kincaid 5 Jan 1848 Thomas Henrik Herbert Kincaid 20 Apr 1851 - 29 June 1923 (married Sarah Maria Holmes, and had six children, see below) Dorothea Christina Kincaid 11 Mar 1853 married Richard Walton Alexander Frederick Kincaid 10 Apr 1855 Ellen Elizabeth Kincaid 18 Jan 1857 Elizabeth Harriette Kincaid 21 Mar 1860 Thomas Hendrik Herbert and Sarah Maria Holmes went on to have six children; Gertrude Frances Kincaid 16 Jul 1884 Percy Frederick Kincaid 11 Nov 1886 - 22 May 1967 married (1) Alice Maud Poggenpoel, 2 children John b 15 May 1926 and Maud b 28 Sep 1914 (2) Iris Alexandria Morkel, one son Charles Morkel Kincaid b 22 Dec 1932. (Charles married Maria VanSchalkwyk and had 2 sons, John 15 Jan 1963 and Paul in 1965. Leonard Thomas Kincaid 25 Jan 1888 - 1965, married Charlotte Augusta Gerhardt. This couple had 3 children; Gwendoline 28 Sep 1916 - 1956, Roland Kincaid b.1920 and Donald Kincaid 16 Aug 1929. Donald married Joy Scheepers and they had 3 children; Leonard, Gary & Mark Kincaid. Mildred Constance Kincaid 10 Aug 1891 Charles Henry Kincaid 24 Sep 1894, married Enid Audrey Holmes (Enid was born in Rockhampton Qld 4 May 1901) Gwendoline Jessie Holmes Kincaid 31 Oct 1897. The information re John Robert Kincaid and his descendants became available from a NAAIRS document 'The Kincaid family in South Africa' and a list of Kincaid births and marriages purchased from GISA. Leonard Kincaid (son of Donald and Joy - see 3 above) who still resides in South Africa, has confirmed all of the above for me also advising he has 2 sons, Mark Douglas Kincaid and Luke Richard Kincaid who also reside in South Africa. Thomas Hardie Kincaid born 16 Feb 1849 to Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Catherine Barrett in Stepney, Ratcliff County of Middlesex. His death certificate shows he died on 3 Feb 1829 in Rotherhithe, County of London as witnessed by his daughter Julia Charlotte Howes, nee Kincaid. I am unsure who actually raised Thomas Hardie Kincaid after his mother died in 1850 and his father Thomas William Kincaid left the UK to continue his travels and ultimately end up in Australia. Thomas Hardie Kincaid is mentioned on only one of his ? siblings Australian birth records, and was not listed on his father's Australian death certificate. Thomas Hardie married Sarah Ann Drake in 1867, and after her death married Elizabeth Abel in 1898. Thomas and Sarah had five children; Julia Charlotte Kincaid 1868-1934 William Henry Brooks Kincaid 1870-1943 Sarah Catherine Kincaid 1873-1911 Eliza Elizabeth Kincaid 1878- Annie Brooks Kincaid 1883-1883 Thomas William Brooks Kincaid 1885 - (date of death unconfirmed). Thomas married Alice May Springall and this couple had 6 children, the youngest being Eric David Hardie Kincaid (children's illustrator and Artist. Eric also did the artwork for Bill Kincaid in his book, This I'll Defend - The Story of the Kincaids). These details have been confirmed with Eric's daughter Ann Taylor (nee Kincaid) and his son David Kincaid in the UK. (Further details available if required). Thankyou To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca id%20%20DNA.xlsTo join the DNA project, go to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027---------- ---------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotesin the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca id%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca id%20%20DNA.xlsTo join the DNA project, go to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027---------- ---------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotesin the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca id%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ To contact the KINCAID list administrator, send an email to [email protected] To post a message to the KINCAID mailing list, send an email to [email protected] __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 429 ***************************************

Except that the 17-May-1730 and 11-Jul-1731 baptisms she cites were not for a son John but for sons named Thomas. It wasThomas Kincaid who married Elizabeth Chiesly not John Kincaid. Just to be clear, even if a mother was a Kincaid when we do Y-DNA testing it is the father's DNA that is being passed on. There would be no Y-DNA trace of the mother in a participant today. Unfortunately, it is quite likely that the participant has a separate paternal lineage than the ancestor in question because they match no other Kincaid. Until a matching result is found for a participant in another branch of Thomas, one assumes that the participant's Y-DNA is not representative of the Kincaids of Dalderse or Grange or Candie. Legally the participant represents the line but genetic representation is another matter. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid &Elizabeth Chi... > WOW - this is a wonderful, thoughtful and scholarly piece of research. > Thank you for sharing this with the List. > > Ruth > > > In a message dated 12/10/2010 8:13:25 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Thank you Barbara > > Yes, I have looked at the 26-Jun-1730 marriage of John & Janet (OPR > 479/00 > 0080 0081 Falkirk reads James Kincaid son of Thomas in Dalderse to Janet > Simpson daughter of Ales Simpson in Kerse). > The birth record of their son John (OPR 470/00 0030 0525 Falkirk > 11-Jul-1731 > witness Alex Simpson and John Kincaid) > But ...... > On 24-Jun-1725 (OPR 479/00 0080 0040 Falkirk) a John Kincaid married a > Jean > Kincaid (in Grange son to John Kincaid in Candie to Jean Kincaid daughter > of > Thomas Kincaid in Dalderse. > The birth record of their son John (OPR 479/00 0030 0511 Falkirk > 17-May-1730 > witness John Kincaid and Tom Watts. > > Both John Kincaid's born 1730 and 1731 could well be the husband of > Elizabeth Chiesly (Their wedding OPR's do not show any parents names) - > Both possible fathers of John Kincaid gave their children similar names, > making research difficult. > Though it does look like the common link may be Thomas Kincaid (father of > James & Jean) from Dalderse. This would mean the DNA from Thomas in > Dalderse > could be from the Paternal line if John & Janet were parents or Maternal > if > John & Jean were. > > Then, if the parents of John kincaid born 1730/1731 were John and Jean, > that > means I'm looking at a line from John Kincaid in Candie ??? > I think this would then be a different Kincaid line to Gene from the > Kincaid > DNA database. > > Thinking logically, following Scottish tradition of naming the 1st born > male > child after the child's grandfather, consider John & Jean being the > parents, they had seven children, the first born son was Thomas, John's > father was named John. The second son was named Alexander, Jean's father > was named Thomas (clearly no tradition in this family) > James & Janet had 13 children and their eldest was named Thomas, James' > father was named Thomas, Janet's father was Alexander and she named her > 2nd > son Alexander. > > So to finding other possible DNA samples; > Thomas and Elizabeth had 3 other children besides John (daughter > Elizabeth > and son Thomas who died in infancy - so they are of no help) > Their son Alexander (1764-1854) married Jean Clark, they had 6 children > (1) > Thomas 1790-1794 (2) Marion 1792- ? (3) James 1794- 1855 Orchard Hill > married twice, Agnes White and Anne Henderson and only had daughters. (4) > Thomas (Captain Thomas Kincaid 1796-1884) married Anne Henderson, his > family > is well documented via his 2nd son's shipping business John G Kincaid & > Co > in Renfrewshire, and his other son's travels to Patagonia Buenos Aires. > Note, I have not been able to find any of this family line researching > their > family tree, and have had no contact with anyone who may be able to help > (can't really phone up from Australia and say "G'day , sorry to bother > you > but I think you are related to my son from way back in the 1700's and > would > you mind just submitting your DNA for me" ...... > (5) Alexander Kincaid born 1798, I had thought he married Elizabeth Smith > and that it was his son who became Major John Smith-Kincaid, but recent > communication with Eric Kincaid's family has now thrown a question about > this line with the possibility of 2 Alexander & Elizabeths. (6) John > (1801-1808). > > Interesting article at > http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/corporate_neighbourhood/housing/policies_ > and_strategies/PDFs/dawson/april_2006_newsletter.pdf > > The farmer occupying Dalderse Mill Farm in 1876 were the > Kincaid family and in 1810 it was Thomas McGregor and he > was succeed by Andrew Mackie who died in 1831. > The farmer at Dalderse Farm in 1871 was Robert Buchan > and his farmland appears to be the area that was the > grounds of Dalderse Mansion House, north and west of > Bainsford Burn. > In 1876, about halfway between Dalderse Farmhouse and > the Forth & Clyde Canal on Abbot's Road, a large house > Orchard Hall was built and it had quite large grounds. > The owners were Alex. Vernon Macall, Fleet Paymaster of > H.M. Navy, Southsea, his wife, Jane Clark Kincaid or Macall > and her sister, Margaret Kincaid. However by 1891, Margaret > Walker Forrester was apparently living at Orchard Hall. > > Note - Jane Clark Kincaid was the daughter of James Kincaid and Agnes > Wilson > born in 1846, her father died at Orchard Hill and she had a sister > Margaret. > Back to John Kincaid born 1730/1731, the common grandfather was Thomas > Kincaid of Dalderse to both possible sets of John's parents. > > All suggestions, comments etc gratefully received. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > On > Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, 11 December 2010 8:37 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 429 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's (Barbara Van Hout) > 2. Re: Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid and > Elizabeth Chielsy (Barbara Van Hout) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:29:11 -0500 > From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> > Subject: [KINCAID] Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > http://www.electricscotland.com/history/records/scottishrecordso31scotuoft.p > df > > There is a David Kincaid, wife Elizabeth or Isabel Cockburn, with a son > John > Kincaid in these records. Also mentioned are Cuthbert Kincaid, James > Kincaid, Sr. & Jr., Stephen Kincaid, and Edward Kincaid, Burgess of > Edinburgh. > > The list is on p. 113 of the above link to the ?Protocol Book of Gilbert > Grote, 1552-1573.? > > How were the Edinburgh Kincaids related to the James Kincaid family of > Campsie? > > > Barbara > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:36:40 -0500 > From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid > and Elizabeth Chielsy > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; > reply-type=original > > Sue, I agree with you that it would be good to get another sample from > this > Kincaid family of Falkirk. > > The Family Search website gives James Kincaid (son of Thomas) and Janet > Simson/Simpson (daughter of Alexander) as the parents of Thomas > Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly. Which Thomas was the possible father of > James/Janet who married > Aug. 7, 1730 in Falkirk, Sterling, Scotland according to church records. > > Barbara > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sue Liedtke > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 5:29 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas kincaidand > Elizabeth Chielsy > > I agree that the paper work is excellant. Lesley has worked very hard to > get > all her ducks in a row but I am still hesitent to mark the line as fully > vetted without a close match. The problem is not that this isn't a true > family line but that a vetted line says that the DNA profile is that of > the > given ancestor. That is a primary reason for vetting. In this case we > don't > know if this is Thomas's DNA profile or not. There may have been an > unrecorded non-Kincaid paternal event somewhere along the line. > > It is not just that Martyn doesn't match Gene. If he had matched anyone > in > any Group, even someone in the ungrouped section if it could be shown > that > the ancestral lines did not merge in recent times, then I would not a see > a > problem. > > All vetted lines have a near DNA match. We held off vetting #168724 until > a > confirming DNA sample could be tested. Many participants have had to find > someone for testing in order to isolate a mutation before they could be > vetted to a specific ancestor. > > I know that Lesley has struck out in trying to get a DNA sample from the > line of one of Charles' other sons. I am wondering if it is possible to > trace a line down from John? > > Sue Liedtke > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don W Kincaid" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:58 PM > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas > kincaidand > Elizabeth Chielsy > > > I believe Lesley has done an excellent job in documenting the lineage of > Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley. There are > not > many who are documented as well as this one. One of the other well > documented ones is for Gene Kincaid, #23547 who shows back to Falkirk > Parish > in Scotland like Martyn shows so I understand Sue's apprehension on > vetting > Martyn since his dna does not match with 23547. With the excellent > documentation for Martyn, I believe we should show him as vetted. One big > reason I believe we should vet Martyn is that there could easily be 2 > lines > of Kincaid's in Falkirk Parish just as we have found 2 different lines of > Kincaid's living next to each other in the Colonies in several instances. > If > we did not have another participant showing to Falkirk Parish, would > anyone > have an objection to Martyn's lineage being vetted? I doubt anyone would, > given the excellent documentation. If vetted, I would not object to > having > a > note stating that dna results have not confirmed Martyn's lineage to > Falkirk > or a similar statement. > > Don, # 1427 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sue Liedtke > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:40 PM > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas > kincaidand > Elizabeth Chielsy > > > This is the 2nd call for comments on the post seeking to vet #186057 to > Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly. I have asked that comments be directed to the > paper trail as a separate entity from the DNA as I have a question as to > the > advisability of vetting a line without a confirming DNA sample from the > furthest ancestor. > > Normally it takes 2 identical samples from the lines of different sons of > a > given ancestor to prove the DNA of that ancestor. In most cases we can > get > around this because we have identical DNA from other Kincaids whose > ancestors pre-date the given ancestor or could be descended from the same > ancestor by a different son. In cases where there is an unexpected > significant mutation, that mutation needs to be isolated before the line > can > be vetted. As an example:49289 has an unexpected mutation to 9 at marker > 15. > This is a significant mutation as it is used to separate A-2 Kincaids > from > A-1 Kincaids, however no other Kincaid (and there are many participants) > in > the immediate geographic region has this mutation. #49289 could not be > vetted until #135736 who does not have the mutation could be vetted to a > common ancestor (note other unvetted lines from this ancestor do not have > the mutation). > > In the case of #186057 we do not have identical DNA from anyone else in > the > project. While Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly may very well be represented by > #186057's DNA, there is also the possibility that an undisclosed > non-Kincaid > paternal event occurred somewhere along the line. This needs to be ruled > out > with confirming DNA. > > Non the less, it would be of immense value to know if the paper research > is > sound i.e if the DNA were confirmed could this line be vetted. This would > facilitate finding a participant from a different son's line to be tested > for confirming DNA. Please look over the paper trail and comment. > > Sue Liedtke > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lesley Cains" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:31 AM > Subject: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaid and > Elizabeth Chielsy > > > > Vetting Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley > Martyn Kincaid DNA kit #186057 > Researcher : Lesley Sharon Cains, mother of Martyn Stuart Kincaid and ex > wife of Alan John Kincaid > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > Martyn Stuart Kincaid 'Living' b.1987, Lilydale,Victoria Australia not > married. > > Proven by; > > Australian birth certificate (original available) for Martyn Stuart > Kincaid; > parents listed as Alan John Kincaid and Lesley Sharon Kincaid nee Cains. > > Personal knowledge; I know my son is the son of Alan John Kincaid. > ____________________________________________________________ > > Alan John Kincaid 'Living" b.1957 Carlton Victoria Australia m Lesley > Sharon > Cains in 1986 at Numurkah Victoria Australia (certificate available). > > Son of Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. > > Proven by; > > Australian birth certificate for Alan John Kincaid listing parents as > Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. > > Personal knowledge; I personally know the parents and siblings of Alan > John > Kincaid all of whom acknowledge him as the son of Bertram Langley > Kincaid. > > The parents and 3 of the 4 siblings of Alan John Kincaid are all still > living. > > The siblings of Alan John Kincaid are Robert Charles Kincaid, Karen > Eileen > Kincaid, Helen Jean Kincaid and Heather Kincaid (1963-1963). > _____________________________________________________________ > > Bertram Langley Kincaid 'Living' b.1930 Daylesford, Victoria Australia m > Dorothy Dawn Nash 16 October 1955 Camberwell Victoria Australia. > > Son of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters (both > deceased). > > Proven by; > > Australian birth certificate for Bertram Langley Kincaid listing his > parents > as Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters, as confirmed by > Bertram Langley Kincaid who resides in Victoria Australia. > > Australian death certificate's (copies available) for Arthur Charles > Nelson > Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid (nee Waters) listing Bertram Langley > Kincaid > as their son, and also Bertram's siblings John (dec'd), Eileen (dec'd), > Valma and Arthur David. > > Australian Electoral Roll records 1954 showing Bertram Langley Kincaid > living at the home of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita > Kincaid > with his siblings Arthur and John. > > Springvale Victoria Australia crematorium records for Arthur Charles > Nelson > Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid. Website look up; > > http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php?page=search&s_res=GO&cid=330&Given_N > ames=&Surname=kincaid&Surname_ex=&hw_num=100 > > Personal knowledge; I personally knew both parents of Bertram Langley > Kincaid and attended their funeral services. > I personally knew both Valma Jean Kincaid and Arthur David Kincaid (both > now > deceased) siblings of Bertram Langley Kincaid. > The family also told me of Eileen Hilda Kincaid, sister of Bertram > Langley > Kincaid who married William St Dennis and migrated to the United States, > her > social security death index ssn 037-20-3410 Rhode Island date of death > August 1976, and California passenger & Crew list showing Eileen St Denis > & > William St Denis arriving in California 12 Sep 1946, with Eileen on an > Australian passport with notation of her maiden name confirms what the > family have related to me. > Alan John Kincaid also told of Bertram's deceased brother John Charles > Kincaid who died alone following an accident in his home in 1978 as > proven > by his obituary and Springvale Crematorium records. > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid b. 7 January 1902 Daylesford Victoria > Australia m Sarah Rita Waters 24 March 1922 Mildura Victoria Australia > (certificate available). > > Son of Charles Langley Kincaid and Elizabeth Nelson. > > Proven by; > > Australian birth record #2384 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson > Kincaid DOB as 7 January 1902 listing his parents as Charles Kincaid (a > Miner aged 42) and Elizabeth Kincaid, formerly Nelson (aged 42) living at > Eganstown Victoria, who were married 13 April 1891. Siblings shown on the > certificate are Grace Cowling Kincaid, Alice Kincaid, Eliza Kincaid, > Clarice > Kincaid and Helena Kincaid (dec'd). > > Australian marriage record #558 (copy available) for Arthur Charles > Nelson > Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters married on 24 March 1922 at St Margaret's > Vicarage Mildura, listing Arthur's father as Charles Langley Kincaid, a > Miner as his father and Elizabeth Nelson as his mother. > > Australian death record #12575/83 (copy available) for Arthur Charles > Nelson > Kincaid date of death 6 June 1983 at Heatherton Victoria Australia, > retired > aged 81 years and born in Daylesford Victoria. Fathers name showing as > Charles Kincaid and mother as Elizabeth Kincaid (maiden name Nelson), > certified by his wife Sarah (known as Rita) Kincaid. This certificate > also > shows Arthur was 20 years old when he married Sarah Rita Waters in > Mildura > and that he was still married at the time of his death, children listed > as > Arthur aged 61 yrs, Valma aged 59 yrs, Eileen (deceased), John > (deceased), > Bertram aged 53 years. > > Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1924, 1931, 1936, 1937 and 1949 > detailing his address and family members (available to view on > Ancestry.com). > > An on-line Australian newspaper Archive record detailing the death of his > sister Clarice Leona Kincaid and recording that her body was identified > by > her brother Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid reads; "Found dead in the bush, > died from exposure, exhaustion and natural causes (refer to inquest & > newpaper articles), VPRS 24/P Unit 1031 File 92 Clarice Leona Kincaid > died > on or about 28 Dec 1922 from exhaustion during the first stages of > labour. > Body identified by brother - Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid (stonemason) > residing at Victoria park Daylesford. Arthur Angove aged 16 from > Daylesord > was one of those that found her along with Frank Stevens and James > Langdon > who were bird nesting on Angus Hill, on the Cornish Reef". (ref; > > http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1871036?searchTerm=clarice+kinc > aid). > > Springvale Victoria Crematorium records showing that he was cremated 8 > June > 1983. > > Personal knowledge; I personally knew Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and > visited his home with Alan John Kincaid, I also attended his funeral > service. I identified the address' given in the Australian Electoral > Roll's > from my visits to his home, and the earlier address' from when I took > Sarah > Rita Kincaid back To Daylesford and she showed me her old home. Sarah > Rita > Kincaid also took me to her own parents' grave, explaining that Arthur > Charles Nelson Kincaid was a stonemason by trade and made her parents > tombstone and many others in the Kyneton & Daylesford area. Sarah told > me > they had named their son Bertram Langley Kincaid after Arthur's father > Charles Langley Kincaid. > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Charles Langley Kincaid b.21 Apr 1859 Mt Egerton Victoria Australia m > Elizabeth Nelson 30 April 1891 Daylesford Victoria (certificate > available). > > Son of Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Rae. > > Proven by; > > Australian birth record #154 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid > DOB as 21 April 1859 at Mount Egerton Victoria, details show father as > Thomas William Kincaid a Miner in aged 36 years and born Cape of Good > Hope, > marriage details on this record for Thomas William Kincaid given as "1845 > Stepney London", other children "Thomas Kincaid and Alconda Degney > Kincaid". > Mother as Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae, aged 31 years from Waterford > Ireland > and signed by Thomas William Kincaid, father. > > Australian marriage record #4032 (copy available) for Charles Langley > Kincaid and Eliza Nelson 30 April 1891 at the Bible Christian parsonage > Daylesford. This record details Charles aged as 32 years as son of Thomas > William Kincaid a Miner, and Elizabeth Rae. > > Australian death record #1813 (copy available) for Charles Langley > Kincaid, > a Miner died 28 May 1931 at the District Hospital Daylesford aged 72 > years, > his parents are given as Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Kincaid > formerly Rae. It shows Charles was buried on 30 May 1931 at Daylesford > cemetery and that he was born in Eganstown and had lived in Victoria his > whole life. His children are listed as Grace 39 years, Alice 38 years, > Myrtle 35 years, Clarice (deceased) and Arthur 29 years. > > Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1914, 1924 and 1928 detailing > his > address and family members. > > Obituary; (1) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Friday, May 29, 1931 FUNERAL > NOTICE > KINCAID -The friends of the late Mr. Charles Langley Kincaid are > respectfully informed that his remains will be interred in the Dayiesford > Cemetery TOMORROW (Saturday) May 30. The Funeral is appointed to leave > the > mortuary parlour of R. F. Verey at 1.30 pm. R. F. Verey, Funeral > Director. > Phone 245. (2) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Tuesday 2 June, 1931 OBITUARY > CHARLES > LANGLEY KINCAID The death occurred on Thursday morning last, of Mr > Charles > Langley Kincaid, after a long illness, at the age of 72 years. The late > Mr. > Kincaid was born in Eganstown district, and had resided in this locality > all > his life. For many years he was connected to the mining industry. Mrs. > Kincaid and an adult family of three daughters and one son survive to > mourn > their loss, one daughter having predeceased Mr. Kincaid some years ago. > The > funeral took place on Saturday afternoon, and was largely attended. The > casket was carried by Messrs. M. Dickson, W. Spear, W. Burnett > (sons-in-law), C. Nelson (nephew), A. Dickson and J. Dickson. Rev. S. D. > Yarrington conducted the service at the graveside, and the funeral > arrangements were in the hands of Mr. R. F. Verey. > > Grave; Grave C of E 4 C 6 In loving memory of Charles Langley Kincaid, > Elizabeth Kincaid, and Grace Cowling Dickson died 18 Feb, 1982. > > The personal knowledge of his grandson Bertram Langley Kincaid, who has > confirmed the above for me. > ______________________________________________________________ > > Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m > (i) > Elizabeth Catherine Barrett on 18 May 1845 Stepney London (certificate > available). Elizabeth Catherine Barratt died 13 March 1850. This marriage > produced one child, Thomas Hardie Kincaid b. 16 February 1849 > (certificate > available) Rotherhithe England and died 3 February 1929 at Rotherhithe > London UK. > > Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m > (ii) Eliza Rae on 16 Nov 1850 Victoria Australia > > Son of Charles Kincaid and Hillegonda Sophia Row. > > Proven by; > > Beaufort West, South Africa Baptism register on microfilm number 5-39, > "Child Thomas William born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823. > Parents > Charles Kincaid, Hilegonda [sic] Sophia Roow [sic]. Witnesses Joseph > Cleaver, Susanna Frederica Roow [sic], Willem Roow[sic], Anna Roow[sic]". > (photograph of document ordered from GISA and available November 2010). > > Beaufort West South Africa Baptism record, born 2 August 1823, baptised > 17 > August 1823 as per the SA Genealogies by Lombard & Hesse, page 277 (this > record purchased from GISA, Genealogy Institute of South Africa) and > also > provided by contact with Joy Roy (a descendant of Thomas William Kincaid > and professional researcher), Heather McAllister and Tessa King > (Administrators for Ancestry24.com). > > Details taken from the - UK Marriage record for Thomas William Kincaid > (of > full age, a Mariner Chief Officer - son of Charles Kincaid, a sadler) to > Elizabeth Catherine Barratt (with consent of parents) on 18 May 1845 at > St > Thomas' Church Stepney UK, witnessed by William Brown & Sophia Barratt > (copy > available). > > Taken from the - UK Birth record (copy available) of Thomas Hardie > Kincaid > 16 February 1849, father given as Thomas William Kincaid (Master Mariner) > mother as Elizabeth Catherine Kincaid formerly Barratt. > > Taken from the - Australian Death record #14665 (copy on available) 14 > December 1903 at Leonards Hill Victoria Australia, Thomas William Kincaid > aged 80 years. His father was recorded as John Kincaid, profession > unknown, > information on this record was detailed as being provided by his son John > Rae Kincaid. He was buried on 16 December 1903 at Eganstown Public > cemetery, > and shows he had lived 50 years in Victoria. Place of birth given as Cape > Town, Cape Colony South Africa, married to Eliza Rae (not living). The > children of Thomas William Kincaid are listed as Charles 44 years, Janet > 42 > years, John 40 years, Margaret 38 years, Annie 36 years, Isabella 34 > years, > Eliza 32 years, Thomas William 30 years and Alconda (deceased). > > The Australian birth records (copies available) for the Children of > Thomas > William Kincaid & Eliza Rae for Charles Langley 1859, John Rae 1863, > Annie > Eliza 1868, Elizabeth 1873, Thomas William 1875 all detailing the father > and > his place of birth as The cape of Good Hope. > > The birth certificate's for Thomas William Kincaid's children; John Rae > Kincaid in 1863 details Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae married in > Melbourne 1851. On Annie Eliza's record it details 'Melbourne', on > Elizabeth's as 16 November 1850 and on Thomas' 1875 birth record as 26 > November 1850. > > Australian death record (copy available) for daughter Alconda Kincaid > aged > 14 years 27 May 1870 in Eganstown details her parents as Thomas William > Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid, and that Alconda was born in Newstead, > Melbourne > Victoria Australia. > > The Australian marriage certificate for daughter Janet Hardie Kincaid > (copy > available) 25 October 1887 shows her parents as Thomas William Kincaid > and > Eliza Kincaid nee Rae, on her death record in 1933 (copy available) her > parents were given as John Kincaid (a Miner) and Eliza Kincaid formerly > Rae > as provided by S Brown, authorised agent > > When youngest son Thomas William Kincaid died in 1959 at aged 84 his > parents > were listed as unknown. > > Australian 1903 Electoral Roll showing Thomas William Kincaid living at > Leonards Hill Victoria, occupation Miner. > Australian Rate Books - Mt Franklin Victoria from 1872 - 1902 > > Australian Newspaper Archive - Daylesford Advocate Thursday 17 December > 1903 > - The late Mr Kincaid; The remains of Mr T W Kincaid were interred in the > Eganstown Public Cemetery yesterday. The funeral started from his late > residence at Leonard's Hill and comprised of mourners in eight > conveyances > and seven horsemen. The bearers were Messers Kramer, Aldridge, McKidrew > (2), > Ladigus and Blackwell, Mr Taylor read the burial service. Messer's Verey > Bros had charge of the mortuary arrangements. > _____________________________________________________ > > Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (i) Hillegonda Sophia Row on 3 August 1818 > Cape of Good Hope (Hillegonda born 1800, died 4 February 1831). > > Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (ii) Christina Johanna Marian Sporkman, > widow > of John Herbert 12 October 1846 Cape of Good Hope (copy available). > > Son of John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff > > Proven by; > > Scottish OPR record 487/0010 0356 (copy on available) detailing "John > Kincaid and Margaret Gaff, their son named Charles was born 3 May 1791 > and > baptised 8 May, witness' Thomas Kincaid and John Gibb". > > Website - Old Polmont Church (note - please note that not all details on > this website are accurate eg Sir John Kincaid given as never married, he > in > fact married Louisa Frisbee a month before his death). refer > www.polmontold.org.uk/hist1845part06.html > >>From the list of passengers arriving in South Africa on board the Ship > 'The > Brilliant' in 1817, Charles Kincaid was part of a group of Scottish > Artisans > organised by Benjamin Moodie. > >>From the Book - British Residents at the Cape 1795-1819, by David Phillip > page 222, in part reads - "Kincaid, Charles, saddler single arrived 4 > June > 1817 Table Bay, in Brilliant ex Downs under Moodies direction. 2 August > 1817 > has commenced business (saddle, cap and harness maker). 3 August 1818 > marriage of CK of Falkirk, Stirling aged 27 to Hillegonda Sophia d,o, > Robt. > Row aged 18. 6 June 1819 baptised their son John Robert. 18 March 1821 > baptised of their son Charles Langley". > >>From the National Archives of South Africa - in 1818 'memorials received, > Charles Kincaid requesting permission to remain in the Colony. > >>From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid aged 27, > birthplace Falkirk Stirling married at The English Church to Hillegonda > Sophia Row aged 18 born at The Cape on 3 August 1818 as published in The > Capetown Gazette. > > Marriage certificate (copy available) Charles Kincaid (widower, > occupation > Sadler) married in Paarl South Africa to Christina Johanna Maria Sporkman > (widow). > > Death certificate #2505 (copy available) Charles Kincaid born in > Scotland, > married died on 5 March 1866. Lists the children of his 2nds wife's > previous marriage and John Robert Kincaid as son with Hillegonda Sophia. > >>From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid will filed > 1866. > >>From the South African Commercial Advisor - (1) 1826, a daughter of Mr C > Kincaid baptised Jessy, (2) 1829 a son of Mr Charles Kincaid baptised > Alexander Row, (3) 1831 February 4, Sophia Kincaid wife of Mr C Kincaid > died > aged 30 years and 6 months. > > Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill > Kincaid" > > Reference; pamphlet obtained in full from The National Archives of South > Africa "The Kincaid Family in South Africa" by JJ Scheepers and confirmed > by > Leonard Kincaid who resides in South Africa son of Joy Scheepers & Donald > Kincaid descendants of John Robert Kincaid b.1819 at the Cape of Good > Hope. > > _________________________________________________________________ > > John Kincaid b.10 June 1762 Polmont Stirlingshire Scotland m Margaret > Gaff > (marriage on OPR's shows 20 Nov 1784 Bothkennar & 16 Dec 1784 as the > Proclamation Polmont for both parties) > > Son of Thomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chiesly (Cheesley) > > Proven by; > > Scottish OPR Baptism record 487/0010 0084 13 June 1762, "Thomas Kincaid & > Elizabeth Chiesly their son named John was born 10 June and baptised 13 > June, witness' Alexander and Robert Kincaid and John Clark". (Copy > Available) > > Scottish OPR marriage record 473/000010/0260 20th November 1784 marriage > bans, naming John Kincaid if Dalbeath. "(copy available). > > Falkirk Churchyard Grave 184, John Kincaid death 11 February 1794 aged 33 > years. > > Reference; book - Mitchell, John Fowler. Monumental inscriptions (pre > 1855) > in East Stirlingshire. Edinburgh: Scottish Genealogy Society, 1972]. > "John Kincaid, 1st son of Thos Kincaid & Eliz Chislie, age 33, at > Carronflats on 11 February 1794; John's wife, Margt Gaff, age 85, on 5 > February 1844; John's 1st son, Thos Kincaid, age 63, at Glasgow on 31 > December 1848; John's youngest son, Alex Kincaid, age 17, having drowned > by > shipwreck on coast of Durham on 27 January 1806; John's 2nd son, John > Kincaid, 76, at Hastings on 23 April 1862, (having entered the army in > 1809 > & served throughout the Peninsular war with Rifle Brigade, knighted 1852, > senior exon of HM Royal Bodyguard & for many years government inspector > of > prisons & factories for Scotland); John's (Margt Gaff) only daughter, > Margt > Kincaid, age 71, widow of the late Peter Hardie, merchant in Leith, on 6 > October 1863; and John's 3rd son, Charles Kincaid, age 73, at Pearl Cape > of > Good Hope on 5 March 1866" (Note - Information provided by both Peter A > Kincaid, Canada and also Ann Taylor, nee Kincaid England UK and confirmed > verbally that this Book available from the National Library of Australia, > Canberra Australia, copies of relevant extracts pending). > > Reference; made available courtesy of Peter A Kincaid, Canada. > "John Kincaid, son of Thomas Kincaid, farmer, Newlands, as heir to > Alexander > Chiesly, Tenant, Newlands, his grandfather, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in > part > of Bothkennar called Dalbeith, with Ferry Boat & fishing in Carron, & > Teinds, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Chan. Oct. 7. 1788. P.R. 30. 184. > [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1394. > Registered > 20 October 1788]". > "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, as heir to Elizabeth Chiesly, his mother, > seised, > Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, > and > Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Cl. Con. by himself, Oct. 18. > 1788. P.R. 30.185. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. > 1, > no. 1395. Registered 20 October 1788]". > "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, gets Resig. ad Rem. Oct. 18. 1788, -of part of > Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, & Fishing in Carron, par. > Bothkennar; -on Proc. resig. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30. 186. > [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1396. > Registered > 20 October 1788]". > "The Trustees of John Kincaid of Dalbaith, seised, Mar. 22. 1800, -in an > Oxengate of land of Bothkennar called Dalbaith with the Ferry Boat and > part > of the fishing of the Water of Carron, and Teinds; (&2 Oxengates of land > of > the lands of Bothkennar in warrandice), par. Bothkennar; -under burden of > ?50 each to John, Alexander, and Charles Kincaid, and 500 Merks Scots to > Margaret Kincaid, younger children of the said John Kincaid, &c; -on > Disp. > & > Settlement by the said John Kincaid, & Margaret Gaff, his spouse, Sept. > 6. > 1793. P.R. 36.35. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, > no. > 3904. Registered 20 May 1800]". > > Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill > Kincaid" > > Reference; Book - "Adventures of The Rifle Brigade" by sibling Sir John > Kincaid detailing his family, father John Kincaid. > ___________________________________________________________________ > > Thomas Kincaid b. circa 1731 Falkirk Scotland m Elizabeth Chiesly 12 July > 1761. > > Son of (unknown - possible either of James Kincaid & Janet Simson, or > John > Kincaid & Jean Kincaid) > > Proven by; > > Marriage record - Scottish OPR Marriage Ban 479/00008 00237 10 July 1761 > Falkirk, and Scottish OPR Marriage proclamation Polmont 487/00002 0016 > (copies available) this record names Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chielsy > but > neither of their parents. > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Other resources used; > Ancestry.com record search for BDM records, Census returns, travel > records, > Australian Electoral Rolls. > Ancestry24.com for South African research re BDM's, Wills and application > to > remain in the Colony. > Ancestry.Co.ZA to view & purchase South African death records. > Scotslands People (www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) record search for OPR > records > re BDM's, Census & Wills. > GISA (Genealogical Institute of South Africa) for South African family > history records. > NAAIRS for South African records re BDM's, Wills and application to > remain > in the Colony etc. > Book - British Residents at The Cape 1795-1819 by David Phillip. > On-Line Book - Extracts of Marriages at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821. > On-Line Book - Extracts of Baptisms at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821 > 192.com for UK contacts. > Springvale Crematorium Records for confirming Australian deaths. > The Australian National Archives. > The Australian National Library. > The Victorian Government Public Records Office. > The Victorian Registry of Birth, Deaths & Marriages. > The Daylesford Family History Society. > The Australian WW2 Nominal Roll. > The Kincaid family living in Australia. > Trove - Australian newspapers on line. > London newspaper archives on line. > Edinburgh newspaper archives on line. > The Genealogical Society of South Africa historical newspapers on line. > Google. > > Note - Australia does not have census returns as these are not archived > after the government has collated the data it requires. > > __________________________________________________________________________ > > Footnote's - > > John Kincaid & Margaret Gaff had 5 children; > Son Thomas, a Merchant baptised 30 October 1785, died 31 December 1848. > Married Isabella Balloch 17 January 1818 and produced 5 sons and 5 > daughters > per the OPR records. OPR & BDM records show that 4 of the sons died > without > marrying, and John living in Lancashire unmarried aged 60 yrs in 1881. > Son John Kincaid baptised 29 July 1787, died 23 April 1862. Married > Louisa > Frisbee 19 March 1862, no children. > Son Alexander christened 7 June 1789, died in a shipwreck 27 January > 1806. > Never married, no children. > Son Charles as detailed above in vetting. > Daughter Margaret christened 22 July 1795, died 6 October 1863. Married > Peter Hardie 8 March 1811 and produced 4 sons and 1 daughter. Both her > son's Thomas Kincaid Hardie and John Hardie travelled to Australia in > search > of gold. Thomas married Janet Hoyle in Victoria 1848, returning to the UK > to > 'live off his own means' as a 'retired Australian Squatter'. John > married > Elizabeth Hoyle in Victoria Australia 1841, this couple also returned to > the > UK. > > Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisly's son Alexander b.1764 married Jean > Clark. This couple had 6 children, their son Thomas b.1796 was 'Captain > Thomas Kincaid - Shipmaster' who married Ann Henderson. > Two of Thomas & Ann's sons died overseas - Alexander b.1839 died 1892 in > Buenos Ayres and James b.1903 died in 1903 Patagonia Argentina. Their > 2nd > eldest of their son's , John George Kincaid born in 1840 founded J G > Kincaid Shipping in Inverclyde. John G Kincaid married Margaret > Grierson, > their eldest son Thomas Lennox Kincaid b.1877 travelled to Australia > settling in NSW. He married there in 1936 and died in December 1940, > (His > death certificate is available). His wife's son by her 1st marriage, > Hilton > Grenville Marcuso who had links to the notorious Kings Cross criminal > underworld, took the Kincaid surname, and died in NSW Australia in 1975. > > Hillegonda Sophia Row, wife of Charles Kincaid - was born at The Cape of > Good Hope in 1800 and dies at aged 31 on 4 February 1831 as listed in the > South African Commercial Adviser. > Hillegonda was the daughter of Englishman Robert Row and Helena Wilhelma > Aspeling. Helena & Robert married at The Cape on 14 April 1800, she was > the > widow of Lambrecht Van der Woord and had two children by him (Johanna > Louise > and Jan Christian). > Helena and Robert had 3 other children; > Susannah Frederika Row 1802 - 1831. Susannah married Joseph Cleaver > (soap > manufacturer) in 1823 at Beaufort West and this couple were witness' to > the > marriage of Hillegonda & Charles Kincaid's son Thomas William Kincaid's > baptism at the Dutch Reformed Church in Beaufort West August 1823. They > had > one child, a daughter Ann born in 1824 and died in 1825. Joseph Cleaver > died in 1824. > Johanna Margaretha Row 1802-1848. Johanna married Samuel Mollett in > 1834. > Robert James Row 1809-1839. > Hillegonda's mother was Hillegonda Kotze also born at The Cape of Good > Hope > as was her mother before her. It was Hillegonda Rows Gr Gr grandparents > that > came to The Cape from Germany and The Nederland's, and her grandfather > Erik > Aspeling from Sweden. > > Charles Kincaid & Hillegonda Row's 1st born son was John Robert Kincaid > born > 1819. He married Frances Dorothea Fison 10th July 1846, and this couple > had > six children; > Charles John Kincaid 5 Jan 1848 > Thomas Henrik Herbert Kincaid 20 Apr 1851 - 29 June 1923 (married Sarah > Maria Holmes, and had six children, see below) > Dorothea Christina Kincaid 11 Mar 1853 married Richard Walton > Alexander Frederick Kincaid 10 Apr 1855 > Ellen Elizabeth Kincaid 18 Jan 1857 > Elizabeth Harriette Kincaid 21 Mar 1860 > > Thomas Hendrik Herbert and Sarah Maria Holmes went on to have six > children; > Gertrude Frances Kincaid 16 Jul 1884 > Percy Frederick Kincaid 11 Nov 1886 - 22 May 1967 married (1) Alice Maud > Poggenpoel, 2 children John b 15 May 1926 and Maud b 28 Sep 1914 (2) Iris > Alexandria Morkel, one son Charles Morkel Kincaid b 22 Dec 1932. (Charles > married Maria VanSchalkwyk and had 2 sons, John 15 Jan 1963 and Paul in > 1965. > Leonard Thomas Kincaid 25 Jan 1888 - 1965, married Charlotte Augusta > Gerhardt. This couple had 3 children; Gwendoline 28 Sep 1916 - 1956, > Roland > Kincaid b.1920 and Donald Kincaid 16 Aug 1929. Donald married Joy > Scheepers > and they had 3 children; Leonard, Gary & Mark Kincaid. > Mildred Constance Kincaid 10 Aug 1891 > Charles Henry Kincaid 24 Sep 1894, married Enid Audrey Holmes (Enid was > born > in Rockhampton Qld 4 May 1901) > Gwendoline Jessie Holmes Kincaid 31 Oct 1897. > > The information re John Robert Kincaid and his descendants became > available > from a NAAIRS document 'The Kincaid family in South Africa' and a list of > Kincaid births and marriages purchased from GISA. Leonard Kincaid (son > of > Donald and Joy - see 3 above) who still resides in South Africa, has > confirmed all of the above for me also advising he has 2 sons, Mark > Douglas > Kincaid and Luke Richard Kincaid who also reside in South Africa. > > Thomas Hardie Kincaid born 16 Feb 1849 to Thomas William Kincaid and > Elizabeth Catherine Barrett in Stepney, Ratcliff County of Middlesex. His > death certificate shows he died on 3 Feb 1829 in Rotherhithe, County of > London as witnessed by his daughter Julia Charlotte Howes, nee Kincaid. > > I am unsure who actually raised Thomas Hardie Kincaid after his mother > died > in 1850 and his father Thomas William Kincaid left the UK to continue > his > travels and ultimately end up in Australia. Thomas Hardie Kincaid is > mentioned on only one of his ? siblings Australian birth records, and was > not listed on his father's Australian death certificate. > > Thomas Hardie married Sarah Ann Drake in 1867, and after her death > married > Elizabeth Abel in 1898. Thomas and Sarah had five children; > Julia Charlotte Kincaid 1868-1934 > William Henry Brooks Kincaid 1870-1943 > Sarah Catherine Kincaid 1873-1911 > Eliza Elizabeth Kincaid 1878- > Annie Brooks Kincaid 1883-1883 > Thomas William Brooks Kincaid 1885 - (date of death unconfirmed). Thomas > married Alice May Springall and this couple had 6 children, the youngest > being Eric David Hardie Kincaid (children's illustrator and Artist. Eric > also did the artwork for Bill Kincaid in his book, This I'll Defend - The > Story of the Kincaids). These details have been confirmed with Eric's > daughter Ann Taylor (nee Kincaid) and his son David Kincaid in the UK. > > (Further details available if required). > > Thankyou > > > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xlsTo > join the DNA project, go > to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027---------- > ---------------------To > unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotesin the subject and the body of the message > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xlsTo > join the DNA project, go > to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027---------- > ---------------------To > unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotesin the subject and the body of the message > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the KINCAID list administrator, send an email to > [email protected] > > To post a message to the KINCAID mailing list, send an email to > [email protected] > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the > body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 429 > *************************************** > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and > the body of the message > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This connection of Thomas Kincaid/Elizabeth Chieslie as son of James/Janet is also on p. 125 of Bill Kincaid's book in the chapter on "The Falkirk Kincaids." I recall that you disagreed with something about this family...was it that James Kincaid/Janet Simpson were not the parents of Thomas, or that James Kincaid/Janet Simpson was not James Kincaid in Dalgreen, the Jacobite, who supported Bonnie Prince Charlie, the young pretender, in 1745? Barbara -----Original Message----- From: Peter A. Kincaid Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 7:31 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas KincaidandElizabeth Chielsy Just because a website gives Thomas Kincaid's parents as James Kincaid and Janet Simpson does not mean it is true. The evidence I have certainly does not indicate this. James and Janet's son is another Thomas. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid andElizabeth Chielsy > Sue, I agree with you that it would be good to get another sample from > this > Kincaid family of Falkirk. > > The Family Search website gives James Kincaid (son of Thomas) and Janet > Simson/Simpson (daughter of Alexander) as the parents of Thomas > Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly. Which Thomas was the possible father of > James/Janet who married > Aug. 7, 1730 in Falkirk, Sterling, Scotland according to church records. > > Barbara > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Peter, What are your sources for the children born 17 May 1730 and 11 Jul 1731 being named Thomas and not John? And what is your source for a Thomas instead of John marrying Elizabeth Chiesly? Ruth In a message dated 12/11/2010 8:37:48 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Except that the 17-May-1730 and 11-Jul-1731 baptisms she cites were not for a son John but for sons named Thomas. It wasThomas Kincaid who married Elizabeth Chiesly not John Kincaid. Just to be clear, even if a mother was a Kincaid when we do Y-DNA testing it is the father's DNA that is being passed on. There would be no Y-DNA trace of the mother in a participant today. Unfortunately, it is quite likely that the participant has a separate paternal lineage than the ancestor in question because they match no other Kincaid. Until a matching result is found for a participant in another branch of Thomas, one assumes that the participant's Y-DNA is not representative of the Kincaids of Dalderse or Grange or Candie. Legally the participant represents the line but genetic representation is another matter. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid &Elizabeth Chi... > WOW - this is a wonderful, thoughtful and scholarly piece of research. > Thank you for sharing this with the List. > > Ruth > > > In a message dated 12/10/2010 8:13:25 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Thank you Barbara > > Yes, I have looked at the 26-Jun-1730 marriage of John & Janet (OPR > 479/00 > 0080 0081 Falkirk reads James Kincaid son of Thomas in Dalderse to Janet > Simpson daughter of Ales Simpson in Kerse). > The birth record of their son John (OPR 470/00 0030 0525 Falkirk > 11-Jul-1731 > witness Alex Simpson and John Kincaid) > But ...... > On 24-Jun-1725 (OPR 479/00 0080 0040 Falkirk) a John Kincaid married a > Jean > Kincaid (in Grange son to John Kincaid in Candie to Jean Kincaid daughter > of > Thomas Kincaid in Dalderse. > The birth record of their son John (OPR 479/00 0030 0511 Falkirk > 17-May-1730 > witness John Kincaid and Tom Watts. > > Both John Kincaid's born 1730 and 1731 could well be the husband of > Elizabeth Chiesly (Their wedding OPR's do not show any parents names) - > Both possible fathers of John Kincaid gave their children similar names, > making research difficult. > Though it does look like the common link may be Thomas Kincaid (father of > James & Jean) from Dalderse. This would mean the DNA from Thomas in > Dalderse > could be from the Paternal line if John & Janet were parents or Maternal > if > John & Jean were. > > Then, if the parents of John kincaid born 1730/1731 were John and Jean, > that > means I'm looking at a line from John Kincaid in Candie ??? > I think this would then be a different Kincaid line to Gene from the > Kincaid > DNA database. > > Thinking logically, following Scottish tradition of naming the 1st born > male > child after the child's grandfather, consider John & Jean being the > parents, they had seven children, the first born son was Thomas, John's > father was named John. The second son was named Alexander, Jean's father > was named Thomas (clearly no tradition in this family) > James & Janet had 13 children and their eldest was named Thomas, James' > father was named Thomas, Janet's father was Alexander and she named her > 2nd > son Alexander. > > So to finding other possible DNA samples; > Thomas and Elizabeth had 3 other children besides John (daughter > Elizabeth > and son Thomas who died in infancy - so they are of no help) > Their son Alexander (1764-1854) married Jean Clark, they had 6 children > (1) > Thomas 1790-1794 (2) Marion 1792- ? (3) James 1794- 1855 Orchard Hill > married twice, Agnes White and Anne Henderson and only had daughters. (4) > Thomas (Captain Thomas Kincaid 1796-1884) married Anne Henderson, his > family > is well documented via his 2nd son's shipping business John G Kincaid & > Co > in Renfrewshire, and his other son's travels to Patagonia Buenos Aires. > Note, I have not been able to find any of this family line researching > their > family tree, and have had no contact with anyone who may be able to help > (can't really phone up from Australia and say "G'day , sorry to bother > you > but I think you are related to my son from way back in the 1700's and > would > you mind just submitting your DNA for me" ...... > (5) Alexander Kincaid born 1798, I had thought he married Elizabeth Smith > and that it was his son who became Major John Smith-Kincaid, but recent > communication with Eric Kincaid's family has now thrown a question about > this line with the possibility of 2 Alexander & Elizabeths. (6) John > (1801-1808). > > Interesting article at > http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/corporate_neighbourhood/housing/policies_ > and_strategies/PDFs/dawson/april_2006_newsletter.pdf > > The farmer occupying Dalderse Mill Farm in 1876 were the > Kincaid family and in 1810 it was Thomas McGregor and he > was succeed by Andrew Mackie who died in 1831. > The farmer at Dalderse Farm in 1871 was Robert Buchan > and his farmland appears to be the area that was the > grounds of Dalderse Mansion House, north and west of > Bainsford Burn. > In 1876, about halfway between Dalderse Farmhouse and > the Forth & Clyde Canal on Abbot's Road, a large house > Orchard Hall was built and it had quite large grounds. > The owners were Alex. Vernon Macall, Fleet Paymaster of > H.M. Navy, Southsea, his wife, Jane Clark Kincaid or Macall > and her sister, Margaret Kincaid. However by 1891, Margaret > Walker Forrester was apparently living at Orchard Hall. > > Note - Jane Clark Kincaid was the daughter of James Kincaid and Agnes > Wilson > born in 1846, her father died at Orchard Hill and she had a sister > Margaret. > Back to John Kincaid born 1730/1731, the common grandfather was Thomas > Kincaid of Dalderse to both possible sets of John's parents. > > All suggestions, comments etc gratefully received. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > On > Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, 11 December 2010 8:37 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 429 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's (Barbara Van Hout) > 2. Re: Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid and > Elizabeth Chielsy (Barbara Van Hout) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:29:11 -0500 > From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> > Subject: [KINCAID] Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > http://www.electricscotland.com/history/records/scottishrecordso31scotuoft.p > df > > There is a David Kincaid, wife Elizabeth or Isabel Cockburn, with a son > John > Kincaid in these records. Also mentioned are Cuthbert Kincaid, James > Kincaid, Sr. & Jr., Stephen Kincaid, and Edward Kincaid, Burgess of > Edinburgh. > > The list is on p. 113 of the above link to the ?Protocol Book of Gilbert > Grote, 1552-1573.? > > How were the Edinburgh Kincaids related to the James Kincaid family of > Campsie? > > > Barbara > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:36:40 -0500 > From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid > and Elizabeth Chielsy > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; > reply-type=original > > Sue, I agree with you that it would be good to get another sample from > this > Kincaid family of Falkirk. > > The Family Search website gives James Kincaid (son of Thomas) and Janet > Simson/Simpson (daughter of Alexander) as the parents of Thomas > Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly. Which Thomas was the possible father of > James/Janet who married > Aug. 7, 1730 in Falkirk, Sterling, Scotland according to church records. > > Barbara > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sue Liedtke > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 5:29 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas kincaidand > Elizabeth Chielsy > > I agree that the paper work is excellant. Lesley has worked very hard to > get > all her ducks in a row but I am still hesitent to mark the line as fully > vetted without a close match. The problem is not that this isn't a true > family line but that a vetted line says that the DNA profile is that of > the > given ancestor. That is a primary reason for vetting. In this case we > don't > know if this is Thomas's DNA profile or not. There may have been an > unrecorded non-Kincaid paternal event somewhere along the line. > > It is not just that Martyn doesn't match Gene. If he had matched anyone > in > any Group, even someone in the ungrouped section if it could be shown > that > the ancestral lines did not merge in recent times, then I would not a see > a > problem. > > All vetted lines have a near DNA match. We held off vetting #168724 until > a > confirming DNA sample could be tested. Many participants have had to find > someone for testing in order to isolate a mutation before they could be > vetted to a specific ancestor. > > I know that Lesley has struck out in trying to get a DNA sample from the > line of one of Charles' other sons. I am wondering if it is possible to > trace a line down from John? > > Sue Liedtke > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don W Kincaid" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:58 PM > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas > kincaidand > Elizabeth Chielsy > > > I believe Lesley has done an excellent job in documenting the lineage of > Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley. There are > not > many who are documented as well as this one. One of the other well > documented ones is for Gene Kincaid, #23547 who shows back to Falkirk > Parish > in Scotland like Martyn shows so I understand Sue's apprehension on > vetting > Martyn since his dna does not match with 23547. With the excellent > documentation for Martyn, I believe we should show him as vetted. One big > reason I believe we should vet Martyn is that there could easily be 2 > lines > of Kincaid's in Falkirk Parish just as we have found 2 different lines of > Kincaid's living next to each other in the Colonies in several instances. > If > we did not have another participant showing to Falkirk Parish, would > anyone > have an objection to Martyn's lineage being vetted? I doubt anyone would, > given the excellent documentation. If vetted, I would not object to > having > a > note stating that dna results have not confirmed Martyn's lineage to > Falkirk > or a similar statement. > > Don, # 1427 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sue Liedtke > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:40 PM > Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas > kincaidand > Elizabeth Chielsy > > > This is the 2nd call for comments on the post seeking to vet #186057 to > Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly. I have asked that comments be directed to the > paper trail as a separate entity from the DNA as I have a question as to > the > advisability of vetting a line without a confirming DNA sample from the > furthest ancestor. > > Normally it takes 2 identical samples from the lines of different sons of > a > given ancestor to prove the DNA of that ancestor. In most cases we can > get > around this because we have identical DNA from other Kincaids whose > ancestors pre-date the given ancestor or could be descended from the same > ancestor by a different son. In cases where there is an unexpected > significant mutation, that mutation needs to be isolated before the line > can > be vetted. As an example:49289 has an unexpected mutation to 9 at marker > 15. > This is a significant mutation as it is used to separate A-2 Kincaids > from > A-1 Kincaids, however no other Kincaid (and there are many participants) > in > the immediate geographic region has this mutation. #49289 could not be > vetted until #135736 who does not have the mutation could be vetted to a > common ancestor (note other unvetted lines from this ancestor do not have > the mutation). > > In the case of #186057 we do not have identical DNA from anyone else in > the > project. While Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly may very well be represented by > #186057's DNA, there is also the possibility that an undisclosed > non-Kincaid > paternal event occurred somewhere along the line. This needs to be ruled > out > with confirming DNA. > > Non the less, it would be of immense value to know if the paper research > is > sound i.e if the DNA were confirmed could this line be vetted. This would > facilitate finding a participant from a different son's line to be tested > for confirming DNA. Please look over the paper trail and comment. > > Sue Liedtke > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lesley Cains" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:31 AM > Subject: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaid and > Elizabeth Chielsy > > > > Vetting Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley > Martyn Kincaid DNA kit #186057 > Researcher : Lesley Sharon Cains, mother of Martyn Stuart Kincaid and ex > wife of Alan John Kincaid > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > Martyn Stuart Kincaid 'Living' b.1987, Lilydale,Victoria Australia not > married. > > Proven by; > > Australian birth certificate (original available) for Martyn Stuart > Kincaid; > parents listed as Alan John Kincaid and Lesley Sharon Kincaid nee Cains. > > Personal knowledge; I know my son is the son of Alan John Kincaid. > ____________________________________________________________ > > Alan John Kincaid 'Living" b.1957 Carlton Victoria Australia m Lesley > Sharon > Cains in 1986 at Numurkah Victoria Australia (certificate available). > > Son of Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. > > Proven by; > > Australian birth certificate for Alan John Kincaid listing parents as > Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. > > Personal knowledge; I personally know the parents and siblings of Alan > John > Kincaid all of whom acknowledge him as the son of Bertram Langley > Kincaid. > > The parents and 3 of the 4 siblings of Alan John Kincaid are all still > living. > > The siblings of Alan John Kincaid are Robert Charles Kincaid, Karen > Eileen > Kincaid, Helen Jean Kincaid and Heather Kincaid (1963-1963). > _____________________________________________________________ > > Bertram Langley Kincaid 'Living' b.1930 Daylesford, Victoria Australia m > Dorothy Dawn Nash 16 October 1955 Camberwell Victoria Australia. > > Son of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters (both > deceased). > > Proven by; > > Australian birth certificate for Bertram Langley Kincaid listing his > parents > as Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters, as confirmed by > Bertram Langley Kincaid who resides in Victoria Australia. > > Australian death certificate's (copies available) for Arthur Charles > Nelson > Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid (nee Waters) listing Bertram Langley > Kincaid > as their son, and also Bertram's siblings John (dec'd), Eileen (dec'd), > Valma and Arthur David. > > Australian Electoral Roll records 1954 showing Bertram Langley Kincaid > living at the home of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita > Kincaid > with his siblings Arthur and John. > > Springvale Victoria Australia crematorium records for Arthur Charles > Nelson > Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid. Website look up; > > http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php?page=search&s_res=GO&cid=330&Given_N > ames=&Surname=kincaid&Surname_ex=&hw_num=100 > > Personal knowledge; I personally knew both parents of Bertram Langley > Kincaid and attended their funeral services. > I personally knew both Valma Jean Kincaid and Arthur David Kincaid (both > now > deceased) siblings of Bertram Langley Kincaid. > The family also told me of Eileen Hilda Kincaid, sister of Bertram > Langley > Kincaid who married William St Dennis and migrated to the United States, > her > social security death index ssn 037-20-3410 Rhode Island date of death > August 1976, and California passenger & Crew list showing Eileen St Denis > & > William St Denis arriving in California 12 Sep 1946, with Eileen on an > Australian passport with notation of her maiden name confirms what the > family have related to me. > Alan John Kincaid also told of Bertram's deceased brother John Charles > Kincaid who died alone following an accident in his home in 1978 as > proven > by his obituary and Springvale Crematorium records. > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid b. 7 January 1902 Daylesford Victoria > Australia m Sarah Rita Waters 24 March 1922 Mildura Victoria Australia > (certificate available). > > Son of Charles Langley Kincaid and Elizabeth Nelson. > > Proven by; > > Australian birth record #2384 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson > Kincaid DOB as 7 January 1902 listing his parents as Charles Kincaid (a > Miner aged 42) and Elizabeth Kincaid, formerly Nelson (aged 42) living at > Eganstown Victoria, who were married 13 April 1891. Siblings shown on the > certificate are Grace Cowling Kincaid, Alice Kincaid, Eliza Kincaid, > Clarice > Kincaid and Helena Kincaid (dec'd). > > Australian marriage record #558 (copy available) for Arthur Charles > Nelson > Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters married on 24 March 1922 at St Margaret's > Vicarage Mildura, listing Arthur's father as Charles Langley Kincaid, a > Miner as his father and Elizabeth Nelson as his mother. > > Australian death record #12575/83 (copy available) for Arthur Charles > Nelson > Kincaid date of death 6 June 1983 at Heatherton Victoria Australia, > retired > aged 81 years and born in Daylesford Victoria. Fathers name showing as > Charles Kincaid and mother as Elizabeth Kincaid (maiden name Nelson), > certified by his wife Sarah (known as Rita) Kincaid. This certificate > also > shows Arthur was 20 years old when he married Sarah Rita Waters in > Mildura > and that he was still married at the time of his death, children listed > as > Arthur aged 61 yrs, Valma aged 59 yrs, Eileen (deceased), John > (deceased), > Bertram aged 53 years. > > Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1924, 1931, 1936, 1937 and 1949 > detailing his address and family members (available to view on > Ancestry.com). > > An on-line Australian newspaper Archive record detailing the death of his > sister Clarice Leona Kincaid and recording that her body was identified > by > her brother Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid reads; "Found dead in the bush, > died from exposure, exhaustion and natural causes (refer to inquest & > newpaper articles), VPRS 24/P Unit 1031 File 92 Clarice Leona Kincaid > died > on or about 28 Dec 1922 from exhaustion during the first stages of > labour. > Body identified by brother - Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid (stonemason) > residing at Victoria park Daylesford. Arthur Angove aged 16 from > Daylesord > was one of those that found her along with Frank Stevens and James > Langdon > who were bird nesting on Angus Hill, on the Cornish Reef". (ref; > > http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1871036?searchTerm=clarice+kinc > aid). > > Springvale Victoria Crematorium records showing that he was cremated 8 > June > 1983. > > Personal knowledge; I personally knew Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and > visited his home with Alan John Kincaid, I also attended his funeral > service. I identified the address' given in the Australian Electoral > Roll's > from my visits to his home, and the earlier address' from when I took > Sarah > Rita Kincaid back To Daylesford and she showed me her old home. Sarah > Rita > Kincaid also took me to her own parents' grave, explaining that Arthur > Charles Nelson Kincaid was a stonemason by trade and made her parents > tombstone and many others in the Kyneton & Daylesford area. Sarah told > me > they had named their son Bertram Langley Kincaid after Arthur's father > Charles Langley Kincaid. > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Charles Langley Kincaid b.21 Apr 1859 Mt Egerton Victoria Australia m > Elizabeth Nelson 30 April 1891 Daylesford Victoria (certificate > available). > > Son of Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Rae. > > Proven by; > > Australian birth record #154 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid > DOB as 21 April 1859 at Mount Egerton Victoria, details show father as > Thomas William Kincaid a Miner in aged 36 years and born Cape of Good > Hope, > marriage details on this record for Thomas William Kincaid given as "1845 > Stepney London", other children "Thomas Kincaid and Alconda Degney > Kincaid". > Mother as Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae, aged 31 years from Waterford > Ireland > and signed by Thomas William Kincaid, father. > > Australian marriage record #4032 (copy available) for Charles Langley > Kincaid and Eliza Nelson 30 April 1891 at the Bible Christian parsonage > Daylesford. This record details Charles aged as 32 years as son of Thomas > William Kincaid a Miner, and Elizabeth Rae. > > Australian death record #1813 (copy available) for Charles Langley > Kincaid, > a Miner died 28 May 1931 at the District Hospital Daylesford aged 72 > years, > his parents are given as Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Kincaid > formerly Rae. It shows Charles was buried on 30 May 1931 at Daylesford > cemetery and that he was born in Eganstown and had lived in Victoria his > whole life. His children are listed as Grace 39 years, Alice 38 years, > Myrtle 35 years, Clarice (deceased) and Arthur 29 years. > > Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1914, 1924 and 1928 detailing > his > address and family members. > > Obituary; (1) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Friday, May 29, 1931 FUNERAL > NOTICE > KINCAID -The friends of the late Mr. Charles Langley Kincaid are > respectfully informed that his remains will be interred in the Dayiesford > Cemetery TOMORROW (Saturday) May 30. The Funeral is appointed to leave > the > mortuary parlour of R. F. Verey at 1.30 pm. R. F. Verey, Funeral > Director. > Phone 245. (2) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Tuesday 2 June, 1931 OBITUARY > CHARLES > LANGLEY KINCAID The death occurred on Thursday morning last, of Mr > Charles > Langley Kincaid, after a long illness, at the age of 72 years. The late > Mr. > Kincaid was born in Eganstown district, and had resided in this locality > all > his life. For many years he was connected to the mining industry. Mrs. > Kincaid and an adult family of three daughters and one son survive to > mourn > their loss, one daughter having predeceased Mr. Kincaid some years ago. > The > funeral took place on Saturday afternoon, and was largely attended. The > casket was carried by Messrs. M. Dickson, W. Spear, W. Burnett > (sons-in-law), C. Nelson (nephew), A. Dickson and J. Dickson. Rev. S. D. > Yarrington conducted the service at the graveside, and the funeral > arrangements were in the hands of Mr. R. F. Verey. > > Grave; Grave C of E 4 C 6 In loving memory of Charles Langley Kincaid, > Elizabeth Kincaid, and Grace Cowling Dickson died 18 Feb, 1982. > > The personal knowledge of his grandson Bertram Langley Kincaid, who has > confirmed the above for me. > ______________________________________________________________ > > Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m > (i) > Elizabeth Catherine Barrett on 18 May 1845 Stepney London (certificate > available). Elizabeth Catherine Barratt died 13 March 1850. This marriage > produced one child, Thomas Hardie Kincaid b. 16 February 1849 > (certificate > available) Rotherhithe England and died 3 February 1929 at Rotherhithe > London UK. > > Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m > (ii) Eliza Rae on 16 Nov 1850 Victoria Australia > > Son of Charles Kincaid and Hillegonda Sophia Row. > > Proven by; > > Beaufort West, South Africa Baptism register on microfilm number 5-39, > "Child Thomas William born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823. > Parents > Charles Kincaid, Hilegonda [sic] Sophia Roow [sic]. Witnesses Joseph > Cleaver, Susanna Frederica Roow [sic], Willem Roow[sic], Anna Roow[sic]". > (photograph of document ordered from GISA and available November 2010). > > Beaufort West South Africa Baptism record, born 2 August 1823, baptised > 17 > August 1823 as per the SA Genealogies by Lombard & Hesse, page 277 (this > record purchased from GISA, Genealogy Institute of South Africa) and > also > provided by contact with Joy Roy (a descendant of Thomas William Kincaid > and professional researcher), Heather McAllister and Tessa King > (Administrators for Ancestry24.com). > > Details taken from the - UK Marriage record for Thomas William Kincaid > (of > full age, a Mariner Chief Officer - son of Charles Kincaid, a sadler) to > Elizabeth Catherine Barratt (with consent of parents) on 18 May 1845 at > St > Thomas' Church Stepney UK, witnessed by William Brown & Sophia Barratt > (copy > available). > > Taken from the - UK Birth record (copy available) of Thomas Hardie > Kincaid > 16 February 1849, father given as Thomas William Kincaid (Master Mariner) > mother as Elizabeth Catherine Kincaid formerly Barratt. > > Taken from the - Australian Death record #14665 (copy on available) 14 > December 1903 at Leonards Hill Victoria Australia, Thomas William Kincaid > aged 80 years. His father was recorded as John Kincaid, profession > unknown, > information on this record was detailed as being provided by his son John > Rae Kincaid. He was buried on 16 December 1903 at Eganstown Public > cemetery, > and shows he had lived 50 years in Victoria. Place of birth given as Cape > Town, Cape Colony South Africa, married to Eliza Rae (not living). The > children of Thomas William Kincaid are listed as Charles 44 years, Janet > 42 > years, John 40 years, Margaret 38 years, Annie 36 years, Isabella 34 > years, > Eliza 32 years, Thomas William 30 years and Alconda (deceased). > > The Australian birth records (copies available) for the Children of > Thomas > William Kincaid & Eliza Rae for Charles Langley 1859, John Rae 1863, > Annie > Eliza 1868, Elizabeth 1873, Thomas William 1875 all detailing the father > and > his place of birth as The cape of Good Hope. > > The birth certificate's for Thomas William Kincaid's children; John Rae > Kincaid in 1863 details Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae married in > Melbourne 1851. On Annie Eliza's record it details 'Melbourne', on > Elizabeth's as 16 November 1850 and on Thomas' 1875 birth record as 26 > November 1850. > > Australian death record (copy available) for daughter Alconda Kincaid > aged > 14 years 27 May 1870 in Eganstown details her parents as Thomas William > Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid, and that Alconda was born in Newstead, > Melbourne > Victoria Australia. > > The Australian marriage certificate for daughter Janet Hardie Kincaid > (copy > available) 25 October 1887 shows her parents as Thomas William Kincaid > and > Eliza Kincaid nee Rae, on her death record in 1933 (copy available) her > parents were given as John Kincaid (a Miner) and Eliza Kincaid formerly > Rae > as provided by S Brown, authorised agent > > When youngest son Thomas William Kincaid died in 1959 at aged 84 his > parents > were listed as unknown. > > Australian 1903 Electoral Roll showing Thomas William Kincaid living at > Leonards Hill Victoria, occupation Miner. > Australian Rate Books - Mt Franklin Victoria from 1872 - 1902 > > Australian Newspaper Archive - Daylesford Advocate Thursday 17 December > 1903 > - The late Mr Kincaid; The remains of Mr T W Kincaid were interred in the > Eganstown Public Cemetery yesterday. The funeral started from his late > residence at Leonard's Hill and comprised of mourners in eight > conveyances > and seven horsemen. The bearers were Messers Kramer, Aldridge, McKidrew > (2), > Ladigus and Blackwell, Mr Taylor read the burial service. Messer's Verey > Bros had charge of the mortuary arrangements. > _____________________________________________________ > > Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (i) Hillegonda Sophia Row on 3 August 1818 > Cape of Good Hope (Hillegonda born 1800, died 4 February 1831). > > Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (ii) Christina Johanna Marian Sporkman, > widow > of John Herbert 12 October 1846 Cape of Good Hope (copy available). > > Son of John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff > > Proven by; > > Scottish OPR record 487/0010 0356 (copy on available) detailing "John > Kincaid and Margaret Gaff, their son named Charles was born 3 May 1791 > and > baptised 8 May, witness' Thomas Kincaid and John Gibb". > > Website - Old Polmont Church (note - please note that not all details on > this website are accurate eg Sir John Kincaid given as never married, he > in > fact married Louisa Frisbee a month before his death). refer > www.polmontold.org.uk/hist1845part06.html > >>From the list of passengers arriving in South Africa on board the Ship > 'The > Brilliant' in 1817, Charles Kincaid was part of a group of Scottish > Artisans > organised by Benjamin Moodie. > >>From the Book - British Residents at the Cape 1795-1819, by David Phillip > page 222, in part reads - "Kincaid, Charles, saddler single arrived 4 > June > 1817 Table Bay, in Brilliant ex Downs under Moodies direction. 2 August > 1817 > has commenced business (saddle, cap and harness maker). 3 August 1818 > marriage of CK of Falkirk, Stirling aged 27 to Hillegonda Sophia d,o, > Robt. > Row aged 18. 6 June 1819 baptised their son John Robert. 18 March 1821 > baptised of their son Charles Langley". > >>From the National Archives of South Africa - in 1818 'memorials received, > Charles Kincaid requesting permission to remain in the Colony. > >>From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid aged 27, > birthplace Falkirk Stirling married at The English Church to Hillegonda > Sophia Row aged 18 born at The Cape on 3 August 1818 as published in The > Capetown Gazette. > > Marriage certificate (copy available) Charles Kincaid (widower, > occupation > Sadler) married in Paarl South Africa to Christina Johanna Maria Sporkman > (widow). > > Death certificate #2505 (copy available) Charles Kincaid born in > Scotland, > married died on 5 March 1866. Lists the children of his 2nds wife's > previous marriage and John Robert Kincaid as son with Hillegonda Sophia. > >>From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid will filed > 1866. > >>From the South African Commercial Advisor - (1) 1826, a daughter of Mr C > Kincaid baptised Jessy, (2) 1829 a son of Mr Charles Kincaid baptised > Alexander Row, (3) 1831 February 4, Sophia Kincaid wife of Mr C Kincaid > died > aged 30 years and 6 months. > > Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill > Kincaid" > > Reference; pamphlet obtained in full from The National Archives of South > Africa "The Kincaid Family in South Africa" by JJ Scheepers and confirmed > by > Leonard Kincaid who resides in South Africa son of Joy Scheepers & Donald > Kincaid descendants of John Robert Kincaid b.1819 at the Cape of Good > Hope. > > _________________________________________________________________ > > John Kincaid b.10 June 1762 Polmont Stirlingshire Scotland m Margaret > Gaff > (marriage on OPR's shows 20 Nov 1784 Bothkennar & 16 Dec 1784 as the > Proclamation Polmont for both parties) > > Son of Thomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chiesly (Cheesley) > > Proven by; > > Scottish OPR Baptism record 487/0010 0084 13 June 1762, "Thomas Kincaid & > Elizabeth Chiesly their son named John was born 10 June and baptised 13 > June, witness' Alexander and Robert Kincaid and John Clark". (Copy > Available) > > Scottish OPR marriage record 473/000010/0260 20th November 1784 marriage > bans, naming John Kincaid if Dalbeath. "(copy available). > > Falkirk Churchyard Grave 184, John Kincaid death 11 February 1794 aged 33 > years. > > Reference; book - Mitchell, John Fowler. Monumental inscriptions (pre > 1855) > in East Stirlingshire. Edinburgh: Scottish Genealogy Society, 1972]. > "John Kincaid, 1st son of Thos Kincaid & Eliz Chislie, age 33, at > Carronflats on 11 February 1794; John's wife, Margt Gaff, age 85, on 5 > February 1844; John's 1st son, Thos Kincaid, age 63, at Glasgow on 31 > December 1848; John's youngest son, Alex Kincaid, age 17, having drowned > by > shipwreck on coast of Durham on 27 January 1806; John's 2nd son, John > Kincaid, 76, at Hastings on 23 April 1862, (having entered the army in > 1809 > & served throughout the Peninsular war with Rifle Brigade, knighted 1852, > senior exon of HM Royal Bodyguard & for many years government inspector > of > prisons & factories for Scotland); John's (Margt Gaff) only daughter, > Margt > Kincaid, age 71, widow of the late Peter Hardie, merchant in Leith, on 6 > October 1863; and John's 3rd son, Charles Kincaid, age 73, at Pearl Cape > of > Good Hope on 5 March 1866" (Note - Information provided by both Peter A > Kincaid, Canada and also Ann Taylor, nee Kincaid England UK and confirmed > verbally that this Book available from the National Library of Australia, > Canberra Australia, copies of relevant extracts pending). > > Reference; made available courtesy of Peter A Kincaid, Canada. > "John Kincaid, son of Thomas Kincaid, farmer, Newlands, as heir to > Alexander > Chiesly, Tenant, Newlands, his grandfather, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in > part > of Bothkennar called Dalbeith, with Ferry Boat & fishing in Carron, & > Teinds, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Chan. Oct. 7. 1788. P.R. 30. 184. > [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1394. > Registered > 20 October 1788]". > "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, as heir to Elizabeth Chiesly, his mother, > seised, > Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, > and > Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Cl. Con. by himself, Oct. 18. > 1788. P.R. 30.185. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. > 1, > no. 1395. Registered 20 October 1788]". > "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, gets Resig. ad Rem. Oct. 18. 1788, -of part of > Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, & Fishing in Carron, par. > Bothkennar; -on Proc. resig. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30. 186. > [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1396. > Registered > 20 October 1788]". > "The Trustees of John Kincaid of Dalbaith, seised, Mar. 22. 1800, -in an > Oxengate of land of Bothkennar called Dalbaith with the Ferry Boat and > part > of the fishing of the Water of Carron, and Teinds; (&2 Oxengates of land > of > the lands of Bothkennar in warrandice), par. Bothkennar; -under burden of > ?50 each to John, Alexander, and Charles Kincaid, and 500 Merks Scots to > Margaret Kincaid, younger children of the said John Kincaid, &c; -on > Disp. > & > Settlement by the said John Kincaid, & Margaret Gaff, his spouse, Sept. > 6. > 1793. P.R. 36.35. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, > no. > 3904. Registered 20 May 1800]". > > Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill > Kincaid" > > Reference; Book - "Adventures of The Rifle Brigade" by sibling Sir John > Kincaid detailing his family, father John Kincaid. > ___________________________________________________________________ > > Thomas Kincaid b. circa 1731 Falkirk Scotland m Elizabeth Chiesly 12 July > 1761. > > Son of (unknown - possible either of James Kincaid & Janet Simson, or > John > Kincaid & Jean Kincaid) > > Proven by; > > Marriage record - Scottish OPR Marriage Ban 479/00008 00237 10 July 1761 > Falkirk, and Scottish OPR Marriage proclamation Polmont 487/00002 0016 > (copies available) this record names Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chielsy > but > neither of their parents. > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Other resources used; > Ancestry.com record search for BDM records, Census returns, travel > records, > Australian Electoral Rolls. > Ancestry24.com for South African research re BDM's, Wills and application > to > remain in the Colony. > Ancestry.Co.ZA to view & purchase South African death records. > Scotslands People (www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) record search for OPR > records > re BDM's, Census & Wills. > GISA (Genealogical Institute of South Africa) for South African family > history records. > NAAIRS for South African records re BDM's, Wills and application to > remain > in the Colony etc. > Book - British Residents at The Cape 1795-1819 by David Phillip. > On-Line Book - Extracts of Marriages at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821. > On-Line Book - Extracts of Baptisms at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821 > 192.com for UK contacts. > Springvale Crematorium Records for confirming Australian deaths. > The Australian National Archives. > The Australian National Library. > The Victorian Government Public Records Office. > The Victorian Registry of Birth, Deaths & Marriages. > The Daylesford Family History Society. > The Australian WW2 Nominal Roll. > The Kincaid family living in Australia. > Trove - Australian newspapers on line. > London newspaper archives on line. > Edinburgh newspaper archives on line. > The Genealogical Society of South Africa historical newspapers on line. > Google. > > Note - Australia does not have census returns as these are not archived > after the government has collated the data it requires. > > __________________________________________________________________________ > > Footnote's - > > John Kincaid & Margaret Gaff had 5 children; > Son Thomas, a Merchant baptised 30 October 1785, died 31 December 1848. > Married Isabella Balloch 17 January 1818 and produced 5 sons and 5 > daughters > per the OPR records. OPR & BDM records show that 4 of the sons died > without > marrying, and John living in Lancashire unmarried aged 60 yrs in 1881. > Son John Kincaid baptised 29 July 1787, died 23 April 1862. Married > Louisa > Frisbee 19 March 1862, no children. > Son Alexander christened 7 June 1789, died in a shipwreck 27 January > 1806. > Never married, no children. > Son Charles as detailed above in vetting. > Daughter Margaret christened 22 July 1795, died 6 October 1863. Married > Peter Hardie 8 March 1811 and produced 4 sons and 1 daughter. Both her > son's Thomas Kincaid Hardie and John Hardie travelled to Australia in > search > of gold. Thomas married Janet Hoyle in Victoria 1848, returning to the UK > to > 'live off his own means' as a 'retired Australian Squatter'. John > married > Elizabeth Hoyle in Victoria Australia 1841, this couple also returned to > the > UK. > > Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisly's son Alexander b.1764 married Jean > Clark. This couple had 6 children, their son Thomas b.1796 was 'Captain > Thomas Kincaid - Shipmaster' who married Ann Henderson. > Two of Thomas & Ann's sons died overseas - Alexander b.1839 died 1892 in > Buenos Ayres and James b.1903 died in 1903 Patagonia Argentina. Their > 2nd > eldest of their son's , John George Kincaid born in 1840 founded J G > Kincaid Shipping in Inverclyde. John G Kincaid married Margaret > Grierson, > their eldest son Thomas Lennox Kincaid b.1877 travelled to Australia > settling in NSW. He married there in 1936 and died in December 1940, > (His > death certificate is available). His wife's son by her 1st marriage, > Hilton > Grenville Marcuso who had links to the notorious Kings Cross criminal > underworld, took the Kincaid surname, and died in NSW Australia in 1975. > > Hillegonda Sophia Row, wife of Charles Kincaid - was born at The Cape of > Good Hope in 1800 and dies at aged 31 on 4 February 1831 as listed in the > South African Commercial Adviser. > Hillegonda was the daughter of Englishman Robert Row and Helena Wilhelma > Aspeling. Helena & Robert married at The Cape on 14 April 1800, she was > the > widow of Lambrecht Van der Woord and had two children by him (Johanna > Louise > and Jan Christian). > Helena and Robert had 3 other children; > Susannah Frederika Row 1802 - 1831. Susannah married Joseph Cleaver > (soap > manufacturer) in 1823 at Beaufort West and this couple were witness' to > the > marriage of Hillegonda & Charles Kincaid's son Thomas William Kincaid's > baptism at the Dutch Reformed Church in Beaufort West August 1823. They > had > one child, a daughter Ann born in 1824 and died in 1825. Joseph Cleaver > died in 1824. > Johanna Margaretha Row 1802-1848. Johanna married Samuel Mollett in > 1834. > Robert James Row 1809-1839. > Hillegonda's mother was Hillegonda Kotze also born at The Cape of Good > Hope > as was her mother before her. It was Hillegonda Rows Gr Gr grandparents > that > came to The Cape from Germany and The Nederland's, and her grandfather > Erik > Aspeling from Sweden. > > Charles Kincaid & Hillegonda Row's 1st born son was John Robert Kincaid > born > 1819. He married Frances Dorothea Fison 10th July 1846, and this couple > had > six children; > Charles John Kincaid 5 Jan 1848 > Thomas Henrik Herbert Kincaid 20 Apr 1851 - 29 June 1923 (married Sarah > Maria Holmes, and had six children, see below) > Dorothea Christina Kincaid 11 Mar 1853 married Richard Walton > Alexander Frederick Kincaid 10 Apr 1855 > Ellen Elizabeth Kincaid 18 Jan 1857 > Elizabeth Harriette Kincaid 21 Mar 1860 > > Thomas Hendrik Herbert and Sarah Maria Holmes went on to have six > children; > Gertrude Frances Kincaid 16 Jul 1884 > Percy Frederick Kincaid 11 Nov 1886 - 22 May 1967 married (1) Alice Maud > Poggenpoel, 2 children John b 15 May 1926 and Maud b 28 Sep 1914 (2) Iris > Alexandria Morkel, one son Charles Morkel Kincaid b 22 Dec 1932. (Charles > married Maria VanSchalkwyk and had 2 sons, John 15 Jan 1963 and Paul in > 1965. > Leonard Thomas Kincaid 25 Jan 1888 - 1965, married Charlotte Augusta > Gerhardt. This couple had 3 children; Gwendoline 28 Sep 1916 - 1956, > Roland > Kincaid b.1920 and Donald Kincaid 16 Aug 1929. Donald married Joy > Scheepers > and they had 3 children; Leonard, Gary & Mark Kincaid. > Mildred Constance Kincaid 10 Aug 1891 > Charles Henry Kincaid 24 Sep 1894, married Enid Audrey Holmes (Enid was > born > in Rockhampton Qld 4 May 1901) > Gwendoline Jessie Holmes Kincaid 31 Oct 1897. > > The information re John Robert Kincaid and his descendants became > available > from a NAAIRS document 'The Kincaid family in South Africa' and a list of > Kincaid births and marriages purchased from GISA. Leonard Kincaid (son > of > Donald and Joy - see 3 above) who still resides in South Africa, has > confirmed all of the above for me also advising he has 2 sons, Mark > Douglas > Kincaid and Luke Richard Kincaid who also reside in South Africa. > > Thomas Hardie Kincaid born 16 Feb 1849 to Thomas William Kincaid and > Elizabeth Catherine Barrett in Stepney, Ratcliff County of Middlesex. His > death certificate shows he died on 3 Feb 1829 in Rotherhithe, County of > London as witnessed by his daughter Julia Charlotte Howes, nee Kincaid. > > I am unsure who actually raised Thomas Hardie Kincaid after his mother > died > in 1850 and his father Thomas William Kincaid left the UK to continue > his > travels and ultimately end up in Australia. Thomas Hardie Kincaid is > mentioned on only one of his ? siblings Australian birth records, and was > not listed on his father's Australian death certificate. > > Thomas Hardie married Sarah Ann Drake in 1867, and after her death > married > Elizabeth Abel in 1898. Thomas and Sarah had five children; > Julia Charlotte Kincaid 1868-1934 > William Henry Brooks Kincaid 1870-1943 > Sarah Catherine Kincaid 1873-1911 > Eliza Elizabeth Kincaid 1878- > Annie Brooks Kincaid 1883-1883 > Thomas William Brooks Kincaid 1885 - (date of death unconfirmed). Thomas > married Alice May Springall and this couple had 6 children, the youngest > being Eric David Hardie Kincaid (children's illustrator and Artist. Eric > also did the artwork for Bill Kincaid in his book, This I'll Defend - The > Story of the Kincaids). These details have been confirmed with Eric's > daughter Ann Taylor (nee Kincaid) and his son David Kincaid in the UK. > > (Further details available if required). > > Thankyou > > > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xlsTo > join the DNA project, go > to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027---------- > ---------------------To > unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotesin the subject and the body of the message > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xlsTo > join the DNA project, go > to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027---------- > ---------------------To > unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotesin the subject and the body of the message > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the KINCAID list administrator, send an email to > [email protected] > > To post a message to the KINCAID mailing list, send an email to > [email protected] > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the > body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 429 > *************************************** > > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca > id%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and > the body of the message > > To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > > To join the DNA project, go to: > www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Res earch/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

WOW - this is a wonderful, thoughtful and scholarly piece of research. Thank you for sharing this with the List. Ruth In a message dated 12/10/2010 8:13:25 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Thank you Barbara Yes, I have looked at the 26-Jun-1730 marriage of John & Janet (OPR 479/00 0080 0081 Falkirk reads James Kincaid son of Thomas in Dalderse to Janet Simpson daughter of Ales Simpson in Kerse). The birth record of their son John (OPR 470/00 0030 0525 Falkirk 11-Jul-1731 witness Alex Simpson and John Kincaid) But ...... On 24-Jun-1725 (OPR 479/00 0080 0040 Falkirk) a John Kincaid married a Jean Kincaid (in Grange son to John Kincaid in Candie to Jean Kincaid daughter of Thomas Kincaid in Dalderse. The birth record of their son John (OPR 479/00 0030 0511 Falkirk 17-May-1730 witness John Kincaid and Tom Watts. Both John Kincaid's born 1730 and 1731 could well be the husband of Elizabeth Chiesly (Their wedding OPR's do not show any parents names) - Both possible fathers of John Kincaid gave their children similar names, making research difficult. Though it does look like the common link may be Thomas Kincaid (father of James & Jean) from Dalderse. This would mean the DNA from Thomas in Dalderse could be from the Paternal line if John & Janet were parents or Maternal if John & Jean were. Then, if the parents of John kincaid born 1730/1731 were John and Jean, that means I'm looking at a line from John Kincaid in Candie ??? I think this would then be a different Kincaid line to Gene from the Kincaid DNA database. Thinking logically, following Scottish tradition of naming the 1st born male child after the child's grandfather, consider John & Jean being the parents, they had seven children, the first born son was Thomas, John's father was named John. The second son was named Alexander, Jean's father was named Thomas (clearly no tradition in this family) James & Janet had 13 children and their eldest was named Thomas, James' father was named Thomas, Janet's father was Alexander and she named her 2nd son Alexander. So to finding other possible DNA samples; Thomas and Elizabeth had 3 other children besides John (daughter Elizabeth and son Thomas who died in infancy - so they are of no help) Their son Alexander (1764-1854) married Jean Clark, they had 6 children (1) Thomas 1790-1794 (2) Marion 1792- ? (3) James 1794- 1855 Orchard Hill married twice, Agnes White and Anne Henderson and only had daughters. (4) Thomas (Captain Thomas Kincaid 1796-1884) married Anne Henderson, his family is well documented via his 2nd son's shipping business John G Kincaid & Co in Renfrewshire, and his other son's travels to Patagonia Buenos Aires. Note, I have not been able to find any of this family line researching their family tree, and have had no contact with anyone who may be able to help (can't really phone up from Australia and say "G'day , sorry to bother you but I think you are related to my son from way back in the 1700's and would you mind just submitting your DNA for me" ...... (5) Alexander Kincaid born 1798, I had thought he married Elizabeth Smith and that it was his son who became Major John Smith-Kincaid, but recent communication with Eric Kincaid's family has now thrown a question about this line with the possibility of 2 Alexander & Elizabeths. (6) John (1801-1808). Interesting article at http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/corporate_neighbourhood/housing/policies_ and_strategies/PDFs/dawson/april_2006_newsletter.pdf The farmer occupying Dalderse Mill Farm in 1876 were the Kincaid family and in 1810 it was Thomas McGregor and he was succeed by Andrew Mackie who died in 1831. The farmer at Dalderse Farm in 1871 was Robert Buchan and his farmland appears to be the area that was the grounds of Dalderse Mansion House, north and west of Bainsford Burn. In 1876, about halfway between Dalderse Farmhouse and the Forth & Clyde Canal on Abbot's Road, a large house Orchard Hall was built and it had quite large grounds. The owners were Alex. Vernon Macall, Fleet Paymaster of H.M. Navy, Southsea, his wife, Jane Clark Kincaid or Macall and her sister, Margaret Kincaid. However by 1891, Margaret Walker Forrester was apparently living at Orchard Hall. Note - Jane Clark Kincaid was the daughter of James Kincaid and Agnes Wilson born in 1846, her father died at Orchard Hill and she had a sister Margaret. Back to John Kincaid born 1730/1731, the common grandfather was Thomas Kincaid of Dalderse to both possible sets of John's parents. All suggestions, comments etc gratefully received. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Saturday, 11 December 2010 8:37 AM To: [email protected] Subject: KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 429 Today's Topics: 1. Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's (Barbara Van Hout) 2. Re: Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chielsy (Barbara Van Hout) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 14:29:11 -0500 From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> Subject: [KINCAID] Kincaids of Edinburgh in the 1500's To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" http://www.electricscotland.com/history/records/scottishrecordso31scotuoft.p df There is a David Kincaid, wife Elizabeth or Isabel Cockburn, with a son John Kincaid in these records. Also mentioned are Cuthbert Kincaid, James Kincaid, Sr. & Jr., Stephen Kincaid, and Edward Kincaid, Burgess of Edinburgh. The list is on p. 113 of the above link to the ?Protocol Book of Gilbert Grote, 1552-1573.? How were the Edinburgh Kincaids related to the James Kincaid family of Campsie? Barbara ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:36:40 -0500 From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chielsy To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Sue, I agree with you that it would be good to get another sample from this Kincaid family of Falkirk. The Family Search website gives James Kincaid (son of Thomas) and Janet Simson/Simpson (daughter of Alexander) as the parents of Thomas Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly. Which Thomas was the possible father of James/Janet who married Aug. 7, 1730 in Falkirk, Sterling, Scotland according to church records. Barbara -----Original Message----- From: Sue Liedtke Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 5:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas kincaidand Elizabeth Chielsy I agree that the paper work is excellant. Lesley has worked very hard to get all her ducks in a row but I am still hesitent to mark the line as fully vetted without a close match. The problem is not that this isn't a true family line but that a vetted line says that the DNA profile is that of the given ancestor. That is a primary reason for vetting. In this case we don't know if this is Thomas's DNA profile or not. There may have been an unrecorded non-Kincaid paternal event somewhere along the line. It is not just that Martyn doesn't match Gene. If he had matched anyone in any Group, even someone in the ungrouped section if it could be shown that the ancestral lines did not merge in recent times, then I would not a see a problem. All vetted lines have a near DNA match. We held off vetting #168724 until a confirming DNA sample could be tested. Many participants have had to find someone for testing in order to isolate a mutation before they could be vetted to a specific ancestor. I know that Lesley has struck out in trying to get a DNA sample from the line of one of Charles' other sons. I am wondering if it is possible to trace a line down from John? Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don W Kincaid" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaidand Elizabeth Chielsy I believe Lesley has done an excellent job in documenting the lineage of Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley. There are not many who are documented as well as this one. One of the other well documented ones is for Gene Kincaid, #23547 who shows back to Falkirk Parish in Scotland like Martyn shows so I understand Sue's apprehension on vetting Martyn since his dna does not match with 23547. With the excellent documentation for Martyn, I believe we should show him as vetted. One big reason I believe we should vet Martyn is that there could easily be 2 lines of Kincaid's in Falkirk Parish just as we have found 2 different lines of Kincaid's living next to each other in the Colonies in several instances. If we did not have another participant showing to Falkirk Parish, would anyone have an objection to Martyn's lineage being vetted? I doubt anyone would, given the excellent documentation. If vetted, I would not object to having a note stating that dna results have not confirmed Martyn's lineage to Falkirk or a similar statement. Don, # 1427 ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Liedtke To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaidand Elizabeth Chielsy This is the 2nd call for comments on the post seeking to vet #186057 to Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly. I have asked that comments be directed to the paper trail as a separate entity from the DNA as I have a question as to the advisability of vetting a line without a confirming DNA sample from the furthest ancestor. Normally it takes 2 identical samples from the lines of different sons of a given ancestor to prove the DNA of that ancestor. In most cases we can get around this because we have identical DNA from other Kincaids whose ancestors pre-date the given ancestor or could be descended from the same ancestor by a different son. In cases where there is an unexpected significant mutation, that mutation needs to be isolated before the line can be vetted. As an example:49289 has an unexpected mutation to 9 at marker 15. This is a significant mutation as it is used to separate A-2 Kincaids from A-1 Kincaids, however no other Kincaid (and there are many participants) in the immediate geographic region has this mutation. #49289 could not be vetted until #135736 who does not have the mutation could be vetted to a common ancestor (note other unvetted lines from this ancestor do not have the mutation). In the case of #186057 we do not have identical DNA from anyone else in the project. While Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly may very well be represented by #186057's DNA, there is also the possibility that an undisclosed non-Kincaid paternal event occurred somewhere along the line. This needs to be ruled out with confirming DNA. Non the less, it would be of immense value to know if the paper research is sound i.e if the DNA were confirmed could this line be vetted. This would facilitate finding a participant from a different son's line to be tested for confirming DNA. Please look over the paper trail and comment. Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Cains" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:31 AM Subject: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaid and Elizabeth Chielsy Vetting Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley Martyn Kincaid DNA kit #186057 Researcher : Lesley Sharon Cains, mother of Martyn Stuart Kincaid and ex wife of Alan John Kincaid ___________________________________________________________ Martyn Stuart Kincaid 'Living' b.1987, Lilydale,Victoria Australia not married. Proven by; Australian birth certificate (original available) for Martyn Stuart Kincaid; parents listed as Alan John Kincaid and Lesley Sharon Kincaid nee Cains. Personal knowledge; I know my son is the son of Alan John Kincaid. ____________________________________________________________ Alan John Kincaid 'Living" b.1957 Carlton Victoria Australia m Lesley Sharon Cains in 1986 at Numurkah Victoria Australia (certificate available). Son of Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. Proven by; Australian birth certificate for Alan John Kincaid listing parents as Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. Personal knowledge; I personally know the parents and siblings of Alan John Kincaid all of whom acknowledge him as the son of Bertram Langley Kincaid. The parents and 3 of the 4 siblings of Alan John Kincaid are all still living. The siblings of Alan John Kincaid are Robert Charles Kincaid, Karen Eileen Kincaid, Helen Jean Kincaid and Heather Kincaid (1963-1963). _____________________________________________________________ Bertram Langley Kincaid 'Living' b.1930 Daylesford, Victoria Australia m Dorothy Dawn Nash 16 October 1955 Camberwell Victoria Australia. Son of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters (both deceased). Proven by; Australian birth certificate for Bertram Langley Kincaid listing his parents as Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters, as confirmed by Bertram Langley Kincaid who resides in Victoria Australia. Australian death certificate's (copies available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid (nee Waters) listing Bertram Langley Kincaid as their son, and also Bertram's siblings John (dec'd), Eileen (dec'd), Valma and Arthur David. Australian Electoral Roll records 1954 showing Bertram Langley Kincaid living at the home of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid with his siblings Arthur and John. Springvale Victoria Australia crematorium records for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid. Website look up; http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php?page=search&s_res=GO&cid=330&Given_N ames=&Surname=kincaid&Surname_ex=&hw_num=100 Personal knowledge; I personally knew both parents of Bertram Langley Kincaid and attended their funeral services. I personally knew both Valma Jean Kincaid and Arthur David Kincaid (both now deceased) siblings of Bertram Langley Kincaid. The family also told me of Eileen Hilda Kincaid, sister of Bertram Langley Kincaid who married William St Dennis and migrated to the United States, her social security death index ssn 037-20-3410 Rhode Island date of death August 1976, and California passenger & Crew list showing Eileen St Denis & William St Denis arriving in California 12 Sep 1946, with Eileen on an Australian passport with notation of her maiden name confirms what the family have related to me. Alan John Kincaid also told of Bertram's deceased brother John Charles Kincaid who died alone following an accident in his home in 1978 as proven by his obituary and Springvale Crematorium records. ____________________________________________________________ Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid b. 7 January 1902 Daylesford Victoria Australia m Sarah Rita Waters 24 March 1922 Mildura Victoria Australia (certificate available). Son of Charles Langley Kincaid and Elizabeth Nelson. Proven by; Australian birth record #2384 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid DOB as 7 January 1902 listing his parents as Charles Kincaid (a Miner aged 42) and Elizabeth Kincaid, formerly Nelson (aged 42) living at Eganstown Victoria, who were married 13 April 1891. Siblings shown on the certificate are Grace Cowling Kincaid, Alice Kincaid, Eliza Kincaid, Clarice Kincaid and Helena Kincaid (dec'd). Australian marriage record #558 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters married on 24 March 1922 at St Margaret's Vicarage Mildura, listing Arthur's father as Charles Langley Kincaid, a Miner as his father and Elizabeth Nelson as his mother. Australian death record #12575/83 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid date of death 6 June 1983 at Heatherton Victoria Australia, retired aged 81 years and born in Daylesford Victoria. Fathers name showing as Charles Kincaid and mother as Elizabeth Kincaid (maiden name Nelson), certified by his wife Sarah (known as Rita) Kincaid. This certificate also shows Arthur was 20 years old when he married Sarah Rita Waters in Mildura and that he was still married at the time of his death, children listed as Arthur aged 61 yrs, Valma aged 59 yrs, Eileen (deceased), John (deceased), Bertram aged 53 years. Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1924, 1931, 1936, 1937 and 1949 detailing his address and family members (available to view on Ancestry.com). An on-line Australian newspaper Archive record detailing the death of his sister Clarice Leona Kincaid and recording that her body was identified by her brother Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid reads; "Found dead in the bush, died from exposure, exhaustion and natural causes (refer to inquest & newpaper articles), VPRS 24/P Unit 1031 File 92 Clarice Leona Kincaid died on or about 28 Dec 1922 from exhaustion during the first stages of labour. Body identified by brother - Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid (stonemason) residing at Victoria park Daylesford. Arthur Angove aged 16 from Daylesord was one of those that found her along with Frank Stevens and James Langdon who were bird nesting on Angus Hill, on the Cornish Reef". (ref; http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1871036?searchTerm=clarice+kinc aid). Springvale Victoria Crematorium records showing that he was cremated 8 June 1983. Personal knowledge; I personally knew Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and visited his home with Alan John Kincaid, I also attended his funeral service. I identified the address' given in the Australian Electoral Roll's from my visits to his home, and the earlier address' from when I took Sarah Rita Kincaid back To Daylesford and she showed me her old home. Sarah Rita Kincaid also took me to her own parents' grave, explaining that Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid was a stonemason by trade and made her parents tombstone and many others in the Kyneton & Daylesford area. Sarah told me they had named their son Bertram Langley Kincaid after Arthur's father Charles Langley Kincaid. _______________________________________________________________________ Charles Langley Kincaid b.21 Apr 1859 Mt Egerton Victoria Australia m Elizabeth Nelson 30 April 1891 Daylesford Victoria (certificate available). Son of Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Rae. Proven by; Australian birth record #154 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid DOB as 21 April 1859 at Mount Egerton Victoria, details show father as Thomas William Kincaid a Miner in aged 36 years and born Cape of Good Hope, marriage details on this record for Thomas William Kincaid given as "1845 Stepney London", other children "Thomas Kincaid and Alconda Degney Kincaid". Mother as Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae, aged 31 years from Waterford Ireland and signed by Thomas William Kincaid, father. Australian marriage record #4032 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid and Eliza Nelson 30 April 1891 at the Bible Christian parsonage Daylesford. This record details Charles aged as 32 years as son of Thomas William Kincaid a Miner, and Elizabeth Rae. Australian death record #1813 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid, a Miner died 28 May 1931 at the District Hospital Daylesford aged 72 years, his parents are given as Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Kincaid formerly Rae. It shows Charles was buried on 30 May 1931 at Daylesford cemetery and that he was born in Eganstown and had lived in Victoria his whole life. His children are listed as Grace 39 years, Alice 38 years, Myrtle 35 years, Clarice (deceased) and Arthur 29 years. Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1914, 1924 and 1928 detailing his address and family members. Obituary; (1) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Friday, May 29, 1931 FUNERAL NOTICE KINCAID -The friends of the late Mr. Charles Langley Kincaid are respectfully informed that his remains will be interred in the Dayiesford Cemetery TOMORROW (Saturday) May 30. The Funeral is appointed to leave the mortuary parlour of R. F. Verey at 1.30 pm. R. F. Verey, Funeral Director. Phone 245. (2) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Tuesday 2 June, 1931 OBITUARY CHARLES LANGLEY KINCAID The death occurred on Thursday morning last, of Mr Charles Langley Kincaid, after a long illness, at the age of 72 years. The late Mr. Kincaid was born in Eganstown district, and had resided in this locality all his life. For many years he was connected to the mining industry. Mrs. Kincaid and an adult family of three daughters and one son survive to mourn their loss, one daughter having predeceased Mr. Kincaid some years ago. The funeral took place on Saturday afternoon, and was largely attended. The casket was carried by Messrs. M. Dickson, W. Spear, W. Burnett (sons-in-law), C. Nelson (nephew), A. Dickson and J. Dickson. Rev. S. D. Yarrington conducted the service at the graveside, and the funeral arrangements were in the hands of Mr. R. F. Verey. Grave; Grave C of E 4 C 6 In loving memory of Charles Langley Kincaid, Elizabeth Kincaid, and Grace Cowling Dickson died 18 Feb, 1982. The personal knowledge of his grandson Bertram Langley Kincaid, who has confirmed the above for me. ______________________________________________________________ Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m (i) Elizabeth Catherine Barrett on 18 May 1845 Stepney London (certificate available). Elizabeth Catherine Barratt died 13 March 1850. This marriage produced one child, Thomas Hardie Kincaid b. 16 February 1849 (certificate available) Rotherhithe England and died 3 February 1929 at Rotherhithe London UK. Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m (ii) Eliza Rae on 16 Nov 1850 Victoria Australia Son of Charles Kincaid and Hillegonda Sophia Row. Proven by; Beaufort West, South Africa Baptism register on microfilm number 5-39, "Child Thomas William born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823. Parents Charles Kincaid, Hilegonda [sic] Sophia Roow [sic]. Witnesses Joseph Cleaver, Susanna Frederica Roow [sic], Willem Roow[sic], Anna Roow[sic]". (photograph of document ordered from GISA and available November 2010). Beaufort West South Africa Baptism record, born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823 as per the SA Genealogies by Lombard & Hesse, page 277 (this record purchased from GISA, Genealogy Institute of South Africa) and also provided by contact with Joy Roy (a descendant of Thomas William Kincaid and professional researcher), Heather McAllister and Tessa King (Administrators for Ancestry24.com). Details taken from the - UK Marriage record for Thomas William Kincaid (of full age, a Mariner Chief Officer - son of Charles Kincaid, a sadler) to Elizabeth Catherine Barratt (with consent of parents) on 18 May 1845 at St Thomas' Church Stepney UK, witnessed by William Brown & Sophia Barratt (copy available). Taken from the - UK Birth record (copy available) of Thomas Hardie Kincaid 16 February 1849, father given as Thomas William Kincaid (Master Mariner) mother as Elizabeth Catherine Kincaid formerly Barratt. Taken from the - Australian Death record #14665 (copy on available) 14 December 1903 at Leonards Hill Victoria Australia, Thomas William Kincaid aged 80 years. His father was recorded as John Kincaid, profession unknown, information on this record was detailed as being provided by his son John Rae Kincaid. He was buried on 16 December 1903 at Eganstown Public cemetery, and shows he had lived 50 years in Victoria. Place of birth given as Cape Town, Cape Colony South Africa, married to Eliza Rae (not living). The children of Thomas William Kincaid are listed as Charles 44 years, Janet 42 years, John 40 years, Margaret 38 years, Annie 36 years, Isabella 34 years, Eliza 32 years, Thomas William 30 years and Alconda (deceased). The Australian birth records (copies available) for the Children of Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae for Charles Langley 1859, John Rae 1863, Annie Eliza 1868, Elizabeth 1873, Thomas William 1875 all detailing the father and his place of birth as The cape of Good Hope. The birth certificate's for Thomas William Kincaid's children; John Rae Kincaid in 1863 details Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae married in Melbourne 1851. On Annie Eliza's record it details 'Melbourne', on Elizabeth's as 16 November 1850 and on Thomas' 1875 birth record as 26 November 1850. Australian death record (copy available) for daughter Alconda Kincaid aged 14 years 27 May 1870 in Eganstown details her parents as Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid, and that Alconda was born in Newstead, Melbourne Victoria Australia. The Australian marriage certificate for daughter Janet Hardie Kincaid (copy available) 25 October 1887 shows her parents as Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid nee Rae, on her death record in 1933 (copy available) her parents were given as John Kincaid (a Miner) and Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae as provided by S Brown, authorised agent When youngest son Thomas William Kincaid died in 1959 at aged 84 his parents were listed as unknown. Australian 1903 Electoral Roll showing Thomas William Kincaid living at Leonards Hill Victoria, occupation Miner. Australian Rate Books - Mt Franklin Victoria from 1872 - 1902 Australian Newspaper Archive - Daylesford Advocate Thursday 17 December 1903 - The late Mr Kincaid; The remains of Mr T W Kincaid were interred in the Eganstown Public Cemetery yesterday. The funeral started from his late residence at Leonard's Hill and comprised of mourners in eight conveyances and seven horsemen. The bearers were Messers Kramer, Aldridge, McKidrew (2), Ladigus and Blackwell, Mr Taylor read the burial service. Messer's Verey Bros had charge of the mortuary arrangements. _____________________________________________________ Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (i) Hillegonda Sophia Row on 3 August 1818 Cape of Good Hope (Hillegonda born 1800, died 4 February 1831). Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (ii) Christina Johanna Marian Sporkman, widow of John Herbert 12 October 1846 Cape of Good Hope (copy available). Son of John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff Proven by; Scottish OPR record 487/0010 0356 (copy on available) detailing "John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff, their son named Charles was born 3 May 1791 and baptised 8 May, witness' Thomas Kincaid and John Gibb". Website - Old Polmont Church (note - please note that not all details on this website are accurate eg Sir John Kincaid given as never married, he in fact married Louisa Frisbee a month before his death). refer www.polmontold.org.uk/hist1845part06.html >From the list of passengers arriving in South Africa on board the Ship 'The Brilliant' in 1817, Charles Kincaid was part of a group of Scottish Artisans organised by Benjamin Moodie. >From the Book - British Residents at the Cape 1795-1819, by David Phillip page 222, in part reads - "Kincaid, Charles, saddler single arrived 4 June 1817 Table Bay, in Brilliant ex Downs under Moodies direction. 2 August 1817 has commenced business (saddle, cap and harness maker). 3 August 1818 marriage of CK of Falkirk, Stirling aged 27 to Hillegonda Sophia d,o, Robt. Row aged 18. 6 June 1819 baptised their son John Robert. 18 March 1821 baptised of their son Charles Langley". >From the National Archives of South Africa - in 1818 'memorials received, Charles Kincaid requesting permission to remain in the Colony. >From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid aged 27, birthplace Falkirk Stirling married at The English Church to Hillegonda Sophia Row aged 18 born at The Cape on 3 August 1818 as published in The Capetown Gazette. Marriage certificate (copy available) Charles Kincaid (widower, occupation Sadler) married in Paarl South Africa to Christina Johanna Maria Sporkman (widow). Death certificate #2505 (copy available) Charles Kincaid born in Scotland, married died on 5 March 1866. Lists the children of his 2nds wife's previous marriage and John Robert Kincaid as son with Hillegonda Sophia. >From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid will filed 1866. >From the South African Commercial Advisor - (1) 1826, a daughter of Mr C Kincaid baptised Jessy, (2) 1829 a son of Mr Charles Kincaid baptised Alexander Row, (3) 1831 February 4, Sophia Kincaid wife of Mr C Kincaid died aged 30 years and 6 months. Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill Kincaid" Reference; pamphlet obtained in full from The National Archives of South Africa "The Kincaid Family in South Africa" by JJ Scheepers and confirmed by Leonard Kincaid who resides in South Africa son of Joy Scheepers & Donald Kincaid descendants of John Robert Kincaid b.1819 at the Cape of Good Hope. _________________________________________________________________ John Kincaid b.10 June 1762 Polmont Stirlingshire Scotland m Margaret Gaff (marriage on OPR's shows 20 Nov 1784 Bothkennar & 16 Dec 1784 as the Proclamation Polmont for both parties) Son of Thomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chiesly (Cheesley) Proven by; Scottish OPR Baptism record 487/0010 0084 13 June 1762, "Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chiesly their son named John was born 10 June and baptised 13 June, witness' Alexander and Robert Kincaid and John Clark". (Copy Available) Scottish OPR marriage record 473/000010/0260 20th November 1784 marriage bans, naming John Kincaid if Dalbeath. "(copy available). Falkirk Churchyard Grave 184, John Kincaid death 11 February 1794 aged 33 years. Reference; book - Mitchell, John Fowler. Monumental inscriptions (pre 1855) in East Stirlingshire. Edinburgh: Scottish Genealogy Society, 1972]. "John Kincaid, 1st son of Thos Kincaid & Eliz Chislie, age 33, at Carronflats on 11 February 1794; John's wife, Margt Gaff, age 85, on 5 February 1844; John's 1st son, Thos Kincaid, age 63, at Glasgow on 31 December 1848; John's youngest son, Alex Kincaid, age 17, having drowned by shipwreck on coast of Durham on 27 January 1806; John's 2nd son, John Kincaid, 76, at Hastings on 23 April 1862, (having entered the army in 1809 & served throughout the Peninsular war with Rifle Brigade, knighted 1852, senior exon of HM Royal Bodyguard & for many years government inspector of prisons & factories for Scotland); John's (Margt Gaff) only daughter, Margt Kincaid, age 71, widow of the late Peter Hardie, merchant in Leith, on 6 October 1863; and John's 3rd son, Charles Kincaid, age 73, at Pearl Cape of Good Hope on 5 March 1866" (Note - Information provided by both Peter A Kincaid, Canada and also Ann Taylor, nee Kincaid England UK and confirmed verbally that this Book available from the National Library of Australia, Canberra Australia, copies of relevant extracts pending). Reference; made available courtesy of Peter A Kincaid, Canada. "John Kincaid, son of Thomas Kincaid, farmer, Newlands, as heir to Alexander Chiesly, Tenant, Newlands, his grandfather, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbeith, with Ferry Boat & fishing in Carron, & Teinds, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Chan. Oct. 7. 1788. P.R. 30. 184. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1394. Registered 20 October 1788]". "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, as heir to Elizabeth Chiesly, his mother, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, and Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Cl. Con. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30.185. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1395. Registered 20 October 1788]". "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, gets Resig. ad Rem. Oct. 18. 1788, -of part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, & Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Proc. resig. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30. 186. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1396. Registered 20 October 1788]". "The Trustees of John Kincaid of Dalbaith, seised, Mar. 22. 1800, -in an Oxengate of land of Bothkennar called Dalbaith with the Ferry Boat and part of the fishing of the Water of Carron, and Teinds; (&2 Oxengates of land of the lands of Bothkennar in warrandice), par. Bothkennar; -under burden of ?50 each to John, Alexander, and Charles Kincaid, and 500 Merks Scots to Margaret Kincaid, younger children of the said John Kincaid, &c; -on Disp. & Settlement by the said John Kincaid, & Margaret Gaff, his spouse, Sept. 6. 1793. P.R. 36.35. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 3904. Registered 20 May 1800]". Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill Kincaid" Reference; Book - "Adventures of The Rifle Brigade" by sibling Sir John Kincaid detailing his family, father John Kincaid. ___________________________________________________________________ Thomas Kincaid b. circa 1731 Falkirk Scotland m Elizabeth Chiesly 12 July 1761. Son of (unknown - possible either of James Kincaid & Janet Simson, or John Kincaid & Jean Kincaid) Proven by; Marriage record - Scottish OPR Marriage Ban 479/00008 00237 10 July 1761 Falkirk, and Scottish OPR Marriage proclamation Polmont 487/00002 0016 (copies available) this record names Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chielsy but neither of their parents. _________________________________________________________________ Other resources used; Ancestry.com record search for BDM records, Census returns, travel records, Australian Electoral Rolls. Ancestry24.com for South African research re BDM's, Wills and application to remain in the Colony. Ancestry.Co.ZA to view & purchase South African death records. Scotslands People (www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) record search for OPR records re BDM's, Census & Wills. GISA (Genealogical Institute of South Africa) for South African family history records. NAAIRS for South African records re BDM's, Wills and application to remain in the Colony etc. Book - British Residents at The Cape 1795-1819 by David Phillip. On-Line Book - Extracts of Marriages at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821. On-Line Book - Extracts of Baptisms at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821 192.com for UK contacts. Springvale Crematorium Records for confirming Australian deaths. The Australian National Archives. The Australian National Library. The Victorian Government Public Records Office. The Victorian Registry of Birth, Deaths & Marriages. The Daylesford Family History Society. The Australian WW2 Nominal Roll. The Kincaid family living in Australia. Trove - Australian newspapers on line. London newspaper archives on line. Edinburgh newspaper archives on line. The Genealogical Society of South Africa historical newspapers on line. Google. Note - Australia does not have census returns as these are not archived after the government has collated the data it requires. __________________________________________________________________________ Footnote's - John Kincaid & Margaret Gaff had 5 children; Son Thomas, a Merchant baptised 30 October 1785, died 31 December 1848. Married Isabella Balloch 17 January 1818 and produced 5 sons and 5 daughters per the OPR records. OPR & BDM records show that 4 of the sons died without marrying, and John living in Lancashire unmarried aged 60 yrs in 1881. Son John Kincaid baptised 29 July 1787, died 23 April 1862. Married Louisa Frisbee 19 March 1862, no children. Son Alexander christened 7 June 1789, died in a shipwreck 27 January 1806. Never married, no children. Son Charles as detailed above in vetting. Daughter Margaret christened 22 July 1795, died 6 October 1863. Married Peter Hardie 8 March 1811 and produced 4 sons and 1 daughter. Both her son's Thomas Kincaid Hardie and John Hardie travelled to Australia in search of gold. Thomas married Janet Hoyle in Victoria 1848, returning to the UK to 'live off his own means' as a 'retired Australian Squatter'. John married Elizabeth Hoyle in Victoria Australia 1841, this couple also returned to the UK. Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisly's son Alexander b.1764 married Jean Clark. This couple had 6 children, their son Thomas b.1796 was 'Captain Thomas Kincaid - Shipmaster' who married Ann Henderson. Two of Thomas & Ann's sons died overseas - Alexander b.1839 died 1892 in Buenos Ayres and James b.1903 died in 1903 Patagonia Argentina. Their 2nd eldest of their son's , John George Kincaid born in 1840 founded J G Kincaid Shipping in Inverclyde. John G Kincaid married Margaret Grierson, their eldest son Thomas Lennox Kincaid b.1877 travelled to Australia settling in NSW. He married there in 1936 and died in December 1940, (His death certificate is available). His wife's son by her 1st marriage, Hilton Grenville Marcuso who had links to the notorious Kings Cross criminal underworld, took the Kincaid surname, and died in NSW Australia in 1975. Hillegonda Sophia Row, wife of Charles Kincaid - was born at The Cape of Good Hope in 1800 and dies at aged 31 on 4 February 1831 as listed in the South African Commercial Adviser. Hillegonda was the daughter of Englishman Robert Row and Helena Wilhelma Aspeling. Helena & Robert married at The Cape on 14 April 1800, she was the widow of Lambrecht Van der Woord and had two children by him (Johanna Louise and Jan Christian). Helena and Robert had 3 other children; Susannah Frederika Row 1802 - 1831. Susannah married Joseph Cleaver (soap manufacturer) in 1823 at Beaufort West and this couple were witness' to the marriage of Hillegonda & Charles Kincaid's son Thomas William Kincaid's baptism at the Dutch Reformed Church in Beaufort West August 1823. They had one child, a daughter Ann born in 1824 and died in 1825. Joseph Cleaver died in 1824. Johanna Margaretha Row 1802-1848. Johanna married Samuel Mollett in 1834. Robert James Row 1809-1839. Hillegonda's mother was Hillegonda Kotze also born at The Cape of Good Hope as was her mother before her. It was Hillegonda Rows Gr Gr grandparents that came to The Cape from Germany and The Nederland's, and her grandfather Erik Aspeling from Sweden. Charles Kincaid & Hillegonda Row's 1st born son was John Robert Kincaid born 1819. He married Frances Dorothea Fison 10th July 1846, and this couple had six children; Charles John Kincaid 5 Jan 1848 Thomas Henrik Herbert Kincaid 20 Apr 1851 - 29 June 1923 (married Sarah Maria Holmes, and had six children, see below) Dorothea Christina Kincaid 11 Mar 1853 married Richard Walton Alexander Frederick Kincaid 10 Apr 1855 Ellen Elizabeth Kincaid 18 Jan 1857 Elizabeth Harriette Kincaid 21 Mar 1860 Thomas Hendrik Herbert and Sarah Maria Holmes went on to have six children; Gertrude Frances Kincaid 16 Jul 1884 Percy Frederick Kincaid 11 Nov 1886 - 22 May 1967 married (1) Alice Maud Poggenpoel, 2 children John b 15 May 1926 and Maud b 28 Sep 1914 (2) Iris Alexandria Morkel, one son Charles Morkel Kincaid b 22 Dec 1932. (Charles married Maria VanSchalkwyk and had 2 sons, John 15 Jan 1963 and Paul in 1965. Leonard Thomas Kincaid 25 Jan 1888 - 1965, married Charlotte Augusta Gerhardt. This couple had 3 children; Gwendoline 28 Sep 1916 - 1956, Roland Kincaid b.1920 and Donald Kincaid 16 Aug 1929. Donald married Joy Scheepers and they had 3 children; Leonard, Gary & Mark Kincaid. Mildred Constance Kincaid 10 Aug 1891 Charles Henry Kincaid 24 Sep 1894, married Enid Audrey Holmes (Enid was born in Rockhampton Qld 4 May 1901) Gwendoline Jessie Holmes Kincaid 31 Oct 1897. The information re John Robert Kincaid and his descendants became available from a NAAIRS document 'The Kincaid family in South Africa' and a list of Kincaid births and marriages purchased from GISA. Leonard Kincaid (son of Donald and Joy - see 3 above) who still resides in South Africa, has confirmed all of the above for me also advising he has 2 sons, Mark Douglas Kincaid and Luke Richard Kincaid who also reside in South Africa. Thomas Hardie Kincaid born 16 Feb 1849 to Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Catherine Barrett in Stepney, Ratcliff County of Middlesex. His death certificate shows he died on 3 Feb 1829 in Rotherhithe, County of London as witnessed by his daughter Julia Charlotte Howes, nee Kincaid. I am unsure who actually raised Thomas Hardie Kincaid after his mother died in 1850 and his father Thomas William Kincaid left the UK to continue his travels and ultimately end up in Australia. Thomas Hardie Kincaid is mentioned on only one of his ? siblings Australian birth records, and was not listed on his father's Australian death certificate. Thomas Hardie married Sarah Ann Drake in 1867, and after her death married Elizabeth Abel in 1898. Thomas and Sarah had five children; Julia Charlotte Kincaid 1868-1934 William Henry Brooks Kincaid 1870-1943 Sarah Catherine Kincaid 1873-1911 Eliza Elizabeth Kincaid 1878- Annie Brooks Kincaid 1883-1883 Thomas William Brooks Kincaid 1885 - (date of death unconfirmed). Thomas married Alice May Springall and this couple had 6 children, the youngest being Eric David Hardie Kincaid (children's illustrator and Artist. Eric also did the artwork for Bill Kincaid in his book, This I'll Defend - The Story of the Kincaids). These details have been confirmed with Eric's daughter Ann Taylor (nee Kincaid) and his son David Kincaid in the UK. (Further details available if required). Thankyou To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca id%20%20DNA.xlsTo join the DNA project, go to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027---------- ---------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotesin the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca id%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca id%20%20DNA.xlsTo join the DNA project, go to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027---------- ---------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotesin the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca id%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ To contact the KINCAID list administrator, send an email to [email protected] To post a message to the KINCAID mailing list, send an email to [email protected] __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of KINCAID Digest, Vol 5, Issue 429 *************************************** To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kinca id%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Just because a website gives Thomas Kincaid's parents as James Kincaid and Janet Simpson does not mean it is true. The evidence I have certainly does not indicate this. James and Janet's son is another Thomas. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Van Hout" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas Kincaid andElizabeth Chielsy > Sue, I agree with you that it would be good to get another sample from > this > Kincaid family of Falkirk. > > The Family Search website gives James Kincaid (son of Thomas) and Janet > Simson/Simpson (daughter of Alexander) as the parents of Thomas > Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly. Which Thomas was the possible father of > James/Janet who married > Aug. 7, 1730 in Falkirk, Sterling, Scotland according to church records. > > Barbara >

Sue, I agree with you that it would be good to get another sample from this Kincaid family of Falkirk. The Family Search website gives James Kincaid (son of Thomas) and Janet Simson/Simpson (daughter of Alexander) as the parents of Thomas Kincaid/Elizabeth Chiesly. Which Thomas was the possible father of James/Janet who married Aug. 7, 1730 in Falkirk, Sterling, Scotland according to church records. Barbara -----Original Message----- From: Sue Liedtke Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 5:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid toThomas kincaidand Elizabeth Chielsy I agree that the paper work is excellant. Lesley has worked very hard to get all her ducks in a row but I am still hesitent to mark the line as fully vetted without a close match. The problem is not that this isn't a true family line but that a vetted line says that the DNA profile is that of the given ancestor. That is a primary reason for vetting. In this case we don't know if this is Thomas's DNA profile or not. There may have been an unrecorded non-Kincaid paternal event somewhere along the line. It is not just that Martyn doesn't match Gene. If he had matched anyone in any Group, even someone in the ungrouped section if it could be shown that the ancestral lines did not merge in recent times, then I would not a see a problem. All vetted lines have a near DNA match. We held off vetting #168724 until a confirming DNA sample could be tested. Many participants have had to find someone for testing in order to isolate a mutation before they could be vetted to a specific ancestor. I know that Lesley has struck out in trying to get a DNA sample from the line of one of Charles' other sons. I am wondering if it is possible to trace a line down from John? Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don W Kincaid" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaidand Elizabeth Chielsy I believe Lesley has done an excellent job in documenting the lineage of Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley. There are not many who are documented as well as this one. One of the other well documented ones is for Gene Kincaid, #23547 who shows back to Falkirk Parish in Scotland like Martyn shows so I understand Sue's apprehension on vetting Martyn since his dna does not match with 23547. With the excellent documentation for Martyn, I believe we should show him as vetted. One big reason I believe we should vet Martyn is that there could easily be 2 lines of Kincaid's in Falkirk Parish just as we have found 2 different lines of Kincaid's living next to each other in the Colonies in several instances. If we did not have another participant showing to Falkirk Parish, would anyone have an objection to Martyn's lineage being vetted? I doubt anyone would, given the excellent documentation. If vetted, I would not object to having a note stating that dna results have not confirmed Martyn's lineage to Falkirk or a similar statement. Don, # 1427 ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Liedtke To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaidand Elizabeth Chielsy This is the 2nd call for comments on the post seeking to vet #186057 to Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly. I have asked that comments be directed to the paper trail as a separate entity from the DNA as I have a question as to the advisability of vetting a line without a confirming DNA sample from the furthest ancestor. Normally it takes 2 identical samples from the lines of different sons of a given ancestor to prove the DNA of that ancestor. In most cases we can get around this because we have identical DNA from other Kincaids whose ancestors pre-date the given ancestor or could be descended from the same ancestor by a different son. In cases where there is an unexpected significant mutation, that mutation needs to be isolated before the line can be vetted. As an example:49289 has an unexpected mutation to 9 at marker 15. This is a significant mutation as it is used to separate A-2 Kincaids from A-1 Kincaids, however no other Kincaid (and there are many participants) in the immediate geographic region has this mutation. #49289 could not be vetted until #135736 who does not have the mutation could be vetted to a common ancestor (note other unvetted lines from this ancestor do not have the mutation). In the case of #186057 we do not have identical DNA from anyone else in the project. While Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly may very well be represented by #186057's DNA, there is also the possibility that an undisclosed non-Kincaid paternal event occurred somewhere along the line. This needs to be ruled out with confirming DNA. Non the less, it would be of immense value to know if the paper research is sound i.e if the DNA were confirmed could this line be vetted. This would facilitate finding a participant from a different son's line to be tested for confirming DNA. Please look over the paper trail and comment. Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Cains" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:31 AM Subject: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaid and Elizabeth Chielsy Vetting Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley Martyn Kincaid DNA kit #186057 Researcher : Lesley Sharon Cains, mother of Martyn Stuart Kincaid and ex wife of Alan John Kincaid ___________________________________________________________ Martyn Stuart Kincaid 'Living' b.1987, Lilydale,Victoria Australia not married. Proven by; Australian birth certificate (original available) for Martyn Stuart Kincaid; parents listed as Alan John Kincaid and Lesley Sharon Kincaid nee Cains. Personal knowledge; I know my son is the son of Alan John Kincaid. ____________________________________________________________ Alan John Kincaid 'Living" b.1957 Carlton Victoria Australia m Lesley Sharon Cains in 1986 at Numurkah Victoria Australia (certificate available). Son of Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. Proven by; Australian birth certificate for Alan John Kincaid listing parents as Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. Personal knowledge; I personally know the parents and siblings of Alan John Kincaid all of whom acknowledge him as the son of Bertram Langley Kincaid. The parents and 3 of the 4 siblings of Alan John Kincaid are all still living. The siblings of Alan John Kincaid are Robert Charles Kincaid, Karen Eileen Kincaid, Helen Jean Kincaid and Heather Kincaid (1963-1963). _____________________________________________________________ Bertram Langley Kincaid 'Living' b.1930 Daylesford, Victoria Australia m Dorothy Dawn Nash 16 October 1955 Camberwell Victoria Australia. Son of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters (both deceased). Proven by; Australian birth certificate for Bertram Langley Kincaid listing his parents as Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters, as confirmed by Bertram Langley Kincaid who resides in Victoria Australia. Australian death certificate's (copies available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid (nee Waters) listing Bertram Langley Kincaid as their son, and also Bertram's siblings John (dec'd), Eileen (dec'd), Valma and Arthur David. Australian Electoral Roll records 1954 showing Bertram Langley Kincaid living at the home of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid with his siblings Arthur and John. Springvale Victoria Australia crematorium records for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid. Website look up; http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php?page=search&s_res=GO&cid=330&Given_N ames=&Surname=kincaid&Surname_ex=&hw_num=100 Personal knowledge; I personally knew both parents of Bertram Langley Kincaid and attended their funeral services. I personally knew both Valma Jean Kincaid and Arthur David Kincaid (both now deceased) siblings of Bertram Langley Kincaid. The family also told me of Eileen Hilda Kincaid, sister of Bertram Langley Kincaid who married William St Dennis and migrated to the United States, her social security death index ssn 037-20-3410 Rhode Island date of death August 1976, and California passenger & Crew list showing Eileen St Denis & William St Denis arriving in California 12 Sep 1946, with Eileen on an Australian passport with notation of her maiden name confirms what the family have related to me. Alan John Kincaid also told of Bertram's deceased brother John Charles Kincaid who died alone following an accident in his home in 1978 as proven by his obituary and Springvale Crematorium records. ____________________________________________________________ Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid b. 7 January 1902 Daylesford Victoria Australia m Sarah Rita Waters 24 March 1922 Mildura Victoria Australia (certificate available). Son of Charles Langley Kincaid and Elizabeth Nelson. Proven by; Australian birth record #2384 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid DOB as 7 January 1902 listing his parents as Charles Kincaid (a Miner aged 42) and Elizabeth Kincaid, formerly Nelson (aged 42) living at Eganstown Victoria, who were married 13 April 1891. Siblings shown on the certificate are Grace Cowling Kincaid, Alice Kincaid, Eliza Kincaid, Clarice Kincaid and Helena Kincaid (dec'd). Australian marriage record #558 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters married on 24 March 1922 at St Margaret's Vicarage Mildura, listing Arthur's father as Charles Langley Kincaid, a Miner as his father and Elizabeth Nelson as his mother. Australian death record #12575/83 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid date of death 6 June 1983 at Heatherton Victoria Australia, retired aged 81 years and born in Daylesford Victoria. Fathers name showing as Charles Kincaid and mother as Elizabeth Kincaid (maiden name Nelson), certified by his wife Sarah (known as Rita) Kincaid. This certificate also shows Arthur was 20 years old when he married Sarah Rita Waters in Mildura and that he was still married at the time of his death, children listed as Arthur aged 61 yrs, Valma aged 59 yrs, Eileen (deceased), John (deceased), Bertram aged 53 years. Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1924, 1931, 1936, 1937 and 1949 detailing his address and family members (available to view on Ancestry.com). An on-line Australian newspaper Archive record detailing the death of his sister Clarice Leona Kincaid and recording that her body was identified by her brother Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid reads; "Found dead in the bush, died from exposure, exhaustion and natural causes (refer to inquest & newpaper articles), VPRS 24/P Unit 1031 File 92 Clarice Leona Kincaid died on or about 28 Dec 1922 from exhaustion during the first stages of labour. Body identified by brother - Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid (stonemason) residing at Victoria park Daylesford. Arthur Angove aged 16 from Daylesord was one of those that found her along with Frank Stevens and James Langdon who were bird nesting on Angus Hill, on the Cornish Reef". (ref; http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1871036?searchTerm=clarice+kinc aid). Springvale Victoria Crematorium records showing that he was cremated 8 June 1983. Personal knowledge; I personally knew Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and visited his home with Alan John Kincaid, I also attended his funeral service. I identified the address' given in the Australian Electoral Roll's from my visits to his home, and the earlier address' from when I took Sarah Rita Kincaid back To Daylesford and she showed me her old home. Sarah Rita Kincaid also took me to her own parents' grave, explaining that Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid was a stonemason by trade and made her parents tombstone and many others in the Kyneton & Daylesford area. Sarah told me they had named their son Bertram Langley Kincaid after Arthur's father Charles Langley Kincaid. _______________________________________________________________________ Charles Langley Kincaid b.21 Apr 1859 Mt Egerton Victoria Australia m Elizabeth Nelson 30 April 1891 Daylesford Victoria (certificate available). Son of Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Rae. Proven by; Australian birth record #154 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid DOB as 21 April 1859 at Mount Egerton Victoria, details show father as Thomas William Kincaid a Miner in aged 36 years and born Cape of Good Hope, marriage details on this record for Thomas William Kincaid given as "1845 Stepney London", other children "Thomas Kincaid and Alconda Degney Kincaid". Mother as Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae, aged 31 years from Waterford Ireland and signed by Thomas William Kincaid, father. Australian marriage record #4032 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid and Eliza Nelson 30 April 1891 at the Bible Christian parsonage Daylesford. This record details Charles aged as 32 years as son of Thomas William Kincaid a Miner, and Elizabeth Rae. Australian death record #1813 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid, a Miner died 28 May 1931 at the District Hospital Daylesford aged 72 years, his parents are given as Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Kincaid formerly Rae. It shows Charles was buried on 30 May 1931 at Daylesford cemetery and that he was born in Eganstown and had lived in Victoria his whole life. His children are listed as Grace 39 years, Alice 38 years, Myrtle 35 years, Clarice (deceased) and Arthur 29 years. Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1914, 1924 and 1928 detailing his address and family members. Obituary; (1) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Friday, May 29, 1931 FUNERAL NOTICE KINCAID -The friends of the late Mr. Charles Langley Kincaid are respectfully informed that his remains will be interred in the Dayiesford Cemetery TOMORROW (Saturday) May 30. The Funeral is appointed to leave the mortuary parlour of R. F. Verey at 1.30 pm. R. F. Verey, Funeral Director. Phone 245. (2) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Tuesday 2 June, 1931 OBITUARY CHARLES LANGLEY KINCAID The death occurred on Thursday morning last, of Mr Charles Langley Kincaid, after a long illness, at the age of 72 years. The late Mr. Kincaid was born in Eganstown district, and had resided in this locality all his life. For many years he was connected to the mining industry. Mrs. Kincaid and an adult family of three daughters and one son survive to mourn their loss, one daughter having predeceased Mr. Kincaid some years ago. The funeral took place on Saturday afternoon, and was largely attended. The casket was carried by Messrs. M. Dickson, W. Spear, W. Burnett (sons-in-law), C. Nelson (nephew), A. Dickson and J. Dickson. Rev. S. D. Yarrington conducted the service at the graveside, and the funeral arrangements were in the hands of Mr. R. F. Verey. Grave; Grave C of E 4 C 6 In loving memory of Charles Langley Kincaid, Elizabeth Kincaid, and Grace Cowling Dickson died 18 Feb, 1982. The personal knowledge of his grandson Bertram Langley Kincaid, who has confirmed the above for me. ______________________________________________________________ Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m (i) Elizabeth Catherine Barrett on 18 May 1845 Stepney London (certificate available). Elizabeth Catherine Barratt died 13 March 1850. This marriage produced one child, Thomas Hardie Kincaid b. 16 February 1849 (certificate available) Rotherhithe England and died 3 February 1929 at Rotherhithe London UK. Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m (ii) Eliza Rae on 16 Nov 1850 Victoria Australia Son of Charles Kincaid and Hillegonda Sophia Row. Proven by; Beaufort West, South Africa Baptism register on microfilm number 5-39, "Child Thomas William born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823. Parents Charles Kincaid, Hilegonda [sic] Sophia Roow [sic]. Witnesses Joseph Cleaver, Susanna Frederica Roow [sic], Willem Roow[sic], Anna Roow[sic]". (photograph of document ordered from GISA and available November 2010). Beaufort West South Africa Baptism record, born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823 as per the SA Genealogies by Lombard & Hesse, page 277 (this record purchased from GISA, Genealogy Institute of South Africa) and also provided by contact with Joy Roy (a descendant of Thomas William Kincaid and professional researcher), Heather McAllister and Tessa King (Administrators for Ancestry24.com). Details taken from the - UK Marriage record for Thomas William Kincaid (of full age, a Mariner Chief Officer - son of Charles Kincaid, a sadler) to Elizabeth Catherine Barratt (with consent of parents) on 18 May 1845 at St Thomas' Church Stepney UK, witnessed by William Brown & Sophia Barratt (copy available). Taken from the - UK Birth record (copy available) of Thomas Hardie Kincaid 16 February 1849, father given as Thomas William Kincaid (Master Mariner) mother as Elizabeth Catherine Kincaid formerly Barratt. Taken from the - Australian Death record #14665 (copy on available) 14 December 1903 at Leonards Hill Victoria Australia, Thomas William Kincaid aged 80 years. His father was recorded as John Kincaid, profession unknown, information on this record was detailed as being provided by his son John Rae Kincaid. He was buried on 16 December 1903 at Eganstown Public cemetery, and shows he had lived 50 years in Victoria. Place of birth given as Cape Town, Cape Colony South Africa, married to Eliza Rae (not living). The children of Thomas William Kincaid are listed as Charles 44 years, Janet 42 years, John 40 years, Margaret 38 years, Annie 36 years, Isabella 34 years, Eliza 32 years, Thomas William 30 years and Alconda (deceased). The Australian birth records (copies available) for the Children of Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae for Charles Langley 1859, John Rae 1863, Annie Eliza 1868, Elizabeth 1873, Thomas William 1875 all detailing the father and his place of birth as The cape of Good Hope. The birth certificate's for Thomas William Kincaid's children; John Rae Kincaid in 1863 details Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae married in Melbourne 1851. On Annie Eliza's record it details 'Melbourne', on Elizabeth's as 16 November 1850 and on Thomas' 1875 birth record as 26 November 1850. Australian death record (copy available) for daughter Alconda Kincaid aged 14 years 27 May 1870 in Eganstown details her parents as Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid, and that Alconda was born in Newstead, Melbourne Victoria Australia. The Australian marriage certificate for daughter Janet Hardie Kincaid (copy available) 25 October 1887 shows her parents as Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid nee Rae, on her death record in 1933 (copy available) her parents were given as John Kincaid (a Miner) and Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae as provided by S Brown, authorised agent When youngest son Thomas William Kincaid died in 1959 at aged 84 his parents were listed as unknown. Australian 1903 Electoral Roll showing Thomas William Kincaid living at Leonards Hill Victoria, occupation Miner. Australian Rate Books - Mt Franklin Victoria from 1872 - 1902 Australian Newspaper Archive - Daylesford Advocate Thursday 17 December 1903 - The late Mr Kincaid; The remains of Mr T W Kincaid were interred in the Eganstown Public Cemetery yesterday. The funeral started from his late residence at Leonard's Hill and comprised of mourners in eight conveyances and seven horsemen. The bearers were Messers Kramer, Aldridge, McKidrew (2), Ladigus and Blackwell, Mr Taylor read the burial service. Messer's Verey Bros had charge of the mortuary arrangements. _____________________________________________________ Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (i) Hillegonda Sophia Row on 3 August 1818 Cape of Good Hope (Hillegonda born 1800, died 4 February 1831). Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (ii) Christina Johanna Marian Sporkman, widow of John Herbert 12 October 1846 Cape of Good Hope (copy available). Son of John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff Proven by; Scottish OPR record 487/0010 0356 (copy on available) detailing "John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff, their son named Charles was born 3 May 1791 and baptised 8 May, witness' Thomas Kincaid and John Gibb". Website - Old Polmont Church (note - please note that not all details on this website are accurate eg Sir John Kincaid given as never married, he in fact married Louisa Frisbee a month before his death). refer www.polmontold.org.uk/hist1845part06.html >From the list of passengers arriving in South Africa on board the Ship 'The Brilliant' in 1817, Charles Kincaid was part of a group of Scottish Artisans organised by Benjamin Moodie. >From the Book - British Residents at the Cape 1795-1819, by David Phillip page 222, in part reads - "Kincaid, Charles, saddler single arrived 4 June 1817 Table Bay, in Brilliant ex Downs under Moodies direction. 2 August 1817 has commenced business (saddle, cap and harness maker). 3 August 1818 marriage of CK of Falkirk, Stirling aged 27 to Hillegonda Sophia d,o, Robt. Row aged 18. 6 June 1819 baptised their son John Robert. 18 March 1821 baptised of their son Charles Langley". >From the National Archives of South Africa - in 1818 'memorials received, Charles Kincaid requesting permission to remain in the Colony. >From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid aged 27, birthplace Falkirk Stirling married at The English Church to Hillegonda Sophia Row aged 18 born at The Cape on 3 August 1818 as published in The Capetown Gazette. Marriage certificate (copy available) Charles Kincaid (widower, occupation Sadler) married in Paarl South Africa to Christina Johanna Maria Sporkman (widow). Death certificate #2505 (copy available) Charles Kincaid born in Scotland, married died on 5 March 1866. Lists the children of his 2nds wife's previous marriage and John Robert Kincaid as son with Hillegonda Sophia. >From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid will filed 1866. >From the South African Commercial Advisor - (1) 1826, a daughter of Mr C Kincaid baptised Jessy, (2) 1829 a son of Mr Charles Kincaid baptised Alexander Row, (3) 1831 February 4, Sophia Kincaid wife of Mr C Kincaid died aged 30 years and 6 months. Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill Kincaid" Reference; pamphlet obtained in full from The National Archives of South Africa "The Kincaid Family in South Africa" by JJ Scheepers and confirmed by Leonard Kincaid who resides in South Africa son of Joy Scheepers & Donald Kincaid descendants of John Robert Kincaid b.1819 at the Cape of Good Hope. _________________________________________________________________ John Kincaid b.10 June 1762 Polmont Stirlingshire Scotland m Margaret Gaff (marriage on OPR's shows 20 Nov 1784 Bothkennar & 16 Dec 1784 as the Proclamation Polmont for both parties) Son of Thomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chiesly (Cheesley) Proven by; Scottish OPR Baptism record 487/0010 0084 13 June 1762, "Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chiesly their son named John was born 10 June and baptised 13 June, witness' Alexander and Robert Kincaid and John Clark". (Copy Available) Scottish OPR marriage record 473/000010/0260 20th November 1784 marriage bans, naming John Kincaid if Dalbeath. "(copy available). Falkirk Churchyard Grave 184, John Kincaid death 11 February 1794 aged 33 years. Reference; book - Mitchell, John Fowler. Monumental inscriptions (pre 1855) in East Stirlingshire. Edinburgh: Scottish Genealogy Society, 1972]. "John Kincaid, 1st son of Thos Kincaid & Eliz Chislie, age 33, at Carronflats on 11 February 1794; John's wife, Margt Gaff, age 85, on 5 February 1844; John's 1st son, Thos Kincaid, age 63, at Glasgow on 31 December 1848; John's youngest son, Alex Kincaid, age 17, having drowned by shipwreck on coast of Durham on 27 January 1806; John's 2nd son, John Kincaid, 76, at Hastings on 23 April 1862, (having entered the army in 1809 & served throughout the Peninsular war with Rifle Brigade, knighted 1852, senior exon of HM Royal Bodyguard & for many years government inspector of prisons & factories for Scotland); John's (Margt Gaff) only daughter, Margt Kincaid, age 71, widow of the late Peter Hardie, merchant in Leith, on 6 October 1863; and John's 3rd son, Charles Kincaid, age 73, at Pearl Cape of Good Hope on 5 March 1866" (Note - Information provided by both Peter A Kincaid, Canada and also Ann Taylor, nee Kincaid England UK and confirmed verbally that this Book available from the National Library of Australia, Canberra Australia, copies of relevant extracts pending). Reference; made available courtesy of Peter A Kincaid, Canada. "John Kincaid, son of Thomas Kincaid, farmer, Newlands, as heir to Alexander Chiesly, Tenant, Newlands, his grandfather, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbeith, with Ferry Boat & fishing in Carron, & Teinds, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Chan. Oct. 7. 1788. P.R. 30. 184. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1394. Registered 20 October 1788]". "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, as heir to Elizabeth Chiesly, his mother, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, and Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Cl. Con. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30.185. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1395. Registered 20 October 1788]". "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, gets Resig. ad Rem. Oct. 18. 1788, -of part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, & Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Proc. resig. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30. 186. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1396. Registered 20 October 1788]". "The Trustees of John Kincaid of Dalbaith, seised, Mar. 22. 1800, -in an Oxengate of land of Bothkennar called Dalbaith with the Ferry Boat and part of the fishing of the Water of Carron, and Teinds; (&2 Oxengates of land of the lands of Bothkennar in warrandice), par. Bothkennar; -under burden of £50 each to John, Alexander, and Charles Kincaid, and 500 Merks Scots to Margaret Kincaid, younger children of the said John Kincaid, &c; -on Disp. & Settlement by the said John Kincaid, & Margaret Gaff, his spouse, Sept. 6. 1793. P.R. 36.35. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 3904. Registered 20 May 1800]". Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill Kincaid" Reference; Book - "Adventures of The Rifle Brigade" by sibling Sir John Kincaid detailing his family, father John Kincaid. ___________________________________________________________________ Thomas Kincaid b. circa 1731 Falkirk Scotland m Elizabeth Chiesly 12 July 1761. Son of (unknown - possible either of James Kincaid & Janet Simson, or John Kincaid & Jean Kincaid) Proven by; Marriage record - Scottish OPR Marriage Ban 479/00008 00237 10 July 1761 Falkirk, and Scottish OPR Marriage proclamation Polmont 487/00002 0016 (copies available) this record names Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chielsy but neither of their parents. _________________________________________________________________ Other resources used; Ancestry.com record search for BDM records, Census returns, travel records, Australian Electoral Rolls. Ancestry24.com for South African research re BDM's, Wills and application to remain in the Colony. Ancestry.Co.ZA to view & purchase South African death records. Scotslands People (www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) record search for OPR records re BDM's, Census & Wills. GISA (Genealogical Institute of South Africa) for South African family history records. NAAIRS for South African records re BDM's, Wills and application to remain in the Colony etc. Book - British Residents at The Cape 1795-1819 by David Phillip. On-Line Book - Extracts of Marriages at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821. On-Line Book - Extracts of Baptisms at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821 192.com for UK contacts. Springvale Crematorium Records for confirming Australian deaths. The Australian National Archives. The Australian National Library. The Victorian Government Public Records Office. The Victorian Registry of Birth, Deaths & Marriages. The Daylesford Family History Society. The Australian WW2 Nominal Roll. The Kincaid family living in Australia. Trove - Australian newspapers on line. London newspaper archives on line. Edinburgh newspaper archives on line. The Genealogical Society of South Africa historical newspapers on line. Google. Note - Australia does not have census returns as these are not archived after the government has collated the data it requires. __________________________________________________________________________ Footnote's - John Kincaid & Margaret Gaff had 5 children; Son Thomas, a Merchant baptised 30 October 1785, died 31 December 1848. Married Isabella Balloch 17 January 1818 and produced 5 sons and 5 daughters per the OPR records. OPR & BDM records show that 4 of the sons died without marrying, and John living in Lancashire unmarried aged 60 yrs in 1881. Son John Kincaid baptised 29 July 1787, died 23 April 1862. Married Louisa Frisbee 19 March 1862, no children. Son Alexander christened 7 June 1789, died in a shipwreck 27 January 1806. Never married, no children. Son Charles as detailed above in vetting. Daughter Margaret christened 22 July 1795, died 6 October 1863. Married Peter Hardie 8 March 1811 and produced 4 sons and 1 daughter. Both her son's Thomas Kincaid Hardie and John Hardie travelled to Australia in search of gold. Thomas married Janet Hoyle in Victoria 1848, returning to the UK to 'live off his own means' as a 'retired Australian Squatter'. John married Elizabeth Hoyle in Victoria Australia 1841, this couple also returned to the UK. Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisly's son Alexander b.1764 married Jean Clark. This couple had 6 children, their son Thomas b.1796 was 'Captain Thomas Kincaid - Shipmaster' who married Ann Henderson. Two of Thomas & Ann's sons died overseas - Alexander b.1839 died 1892 in Buenos Ayres and James b.1903 died in 1903 Patagonia Argentina. Their 2nd eldest of their son's , John George Kincaid born in 1840 founded J G Kincaid Shipping in Inverclyde. John G Kincaid married Margaret Grierson, their eldest son Thomas Lennox Kincaid b.1877 travelled to Australia settling in NSW. He married there in 1936 and died in December 1940, (His death certificate is available). His wife's son by her 1st marriage, Hilton Grenville Marcuso who had links to the notorious Kings Cross criminal underworld, took the Kincaid surname, and died in NSW Australia in 1975. Hillegonda Sophia Row, wife of Charles Kincaid - was born at The Cape of Good Hope in 1800 and dies at aged 31 on 4 February 1831 as listed in the South African Commercial Adviser. Hillegonda was the daughter of Englishman Robert Row and Helena Wilhelma Aspeling. Helena & Robert married at The Cape on 14 April 1800, she was the widow of Lambrecht Van der Woord and had two children by him (Johanna Louise and Jan Christian). Helena and Robert had 3 other children; Susannah Frederika Row 1802 - 1831. Susannah married Joseph Cleaver (soap manufacturer) in 1823 at Beaufort West and this couple were witness' to the marriage of Hillegonda & Charles Kincaid's son Thomas William Kincaid's baptism at the Dutch Reformed Church in Beaufort West August 1823. They had one child, a daughter Ann born in 1824 and died in 1825. Joseph Cleaver died in 1824. Johanna Margaretha Row 1802-1848. Johanna married Samuel Mollett in 1834. Robert James Row 1809-1839. Hillegonda's mother was Hillegonda Kotze also born at The Cape of Good Hope as was her mother before her. It was Hillegonda Rows Gr Gr grandparents that came to The Cape from Germany and The Nederland's, and her grandfather Erik Aspeling from Sweden. Charles Kincaid & Hillegonda Row's 1st born son was John Robert Kincaid born 1819. He married Frances Dorothea Fison 10th July 1846, and this couple had six children; Charles John Kincaid 5 Jan 1848 Thomas Henrik Herbert Kincaid 20 Apr 1851 - 29 June 1923 (married Sarah Maria Holmes, and had six children, see below) Dorothea Christina Kincaid 11 Mar 1853 married Richard Walton Alexander Frederick Kincaid 10 Apr 1855 Ellen Elizabeth Kincaid 18 Jan 1857 Elizabeth Harriette Kincaid 21 Mar 1860 Thomas Hendrik Herbert and Sarah Maria Holmes went on to have six children; Gertrude Frances Kincaid 16 Jul 1884 Percy Frederick Kincaid 11 Nov 1886 - 22 May 1967 married (1) Alice Maud Poggenpoel, 2 children John b 15 May 1926 and Maud b 28 Sep 1914 (2) Iris Alexandria Morkel, one son Charles Morkel Kincaid b 22 Dec 1932. (Charles married Maria VanSchalkwyk and had 2 sons, John 15 Jan 1963 and Paul in 1965. Leonard Thomas Kincaid 25 Jan 1888 - 1965, married Charlotte Augusta Gerhardt. This couple had 3 children; Gwendoline 28 Sep 1916 - 1956, Roland Kincaid b.1920 and Donald Kincaid 16 Aug 1929. Donald married Joy Scheepers and they had 3 children; Leonard, Gary & Mark Kincaid. Mildred Constance Kincaid 10 Aug 1891 Charles Henry Kincaid 24 Sep 1894, married Enid Audrey Holmes (Enid was born in Rockhampton Qld 4 May 1901) Gwendoline Jessie Holmes Kincaid 31 Oct 1897. The information re John Robert Kincaid and his descendants became available from a NAAIRS document 'The Kincaid family in South Africa' and a list of Kincaid births and marriages purchased from GISA. Leonard Kincaid (son of Donald and Joy - see 3 above) who still resides in South Africa, has confirmed all of the above for me also advising he has 2 sons, Mark Douglas Kincaid and Luke Richard Kincaid who also reside in South Africa. Thomas Hardie Kincaid born 16 Feb 1849 to Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Catherine Barrett in Stepney, Ratcliff County of Middlesex. His death certificate shows he died on 3 Feb 1829 in Rotherhithe, County of London as witnessed by his daughter Julia Charlotte Howes, nee Kincaid. I am unsure who actually raised Thomas Hardie Kincaid after his mother died in 1850 and his father Thomas William Kincaid left the UK to continue his travels and ultimately end up in Australia. Thomas Hardie Kincaid is mentioned on only one of his ½ siblings Australian birth records, and was not listed on his father's Australian death certificate. Thomas Hardie married Sarah Ann Drake in 1867, and after her death married Elizabeth Abel in 1898. Thomas and Sarah had five children; Julia Charlotte Kincaid 1868-1934 William Henry Brooks Kincaid 1870-1943 Sarah Catherine Kincaid 1873-1911 Eliza Elizabeth Kincaid 1878- Annie Brooks Kincaid 1883-1883 Thomas William Brooks Kincaid 1885 - (date of death unconfirmed). Thomas married Alice May Springall and this couple had 6 children, the youngest being Eric David Hardie Kincaid (children's illustrator and Artist. Eric also did the artwork for Bill Kincaid in his book, This I'll Defend - The Story of the Kincaids). These details have been confirmed with Eric's daughter Ann Taylor (nee Kincaid) and his son David Kincaid in the UK. (Further details available if required). Thankyou To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xlsTo join the DNA project, go to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027-------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotesin the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xlsTo join the DNA project, go to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027-------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotesin the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/records/scottishrecordso31scotuoft.pdf There is a David Kincaid, wife Elizabeth or Isabel Cockburn, with a son John Kincaid in these records. Also mentioned are Cuthbert Kincaid, James Kincaid, Sr. & Jr., Stephen Kincaid, and Edward Kincaid, Burgess of Edinburgh. The list is on p. 113 of the above link to the “Protocol Book of Gilbert Grote, 1552-1573.” How were the Edinburgh Kincaids related to the James Kincaid family of Campsie? Barbara

I am confident that James Kincaid, son of James Kincaid of that Ilk lived in and died in the District of Columbia. This is established in the Lennox of Woodhead Estate papers in the Glasgow City Archives. They contain two letters written in 1825 to George Kincaid (brother of John Kincaid of Kincaid) from their brother, James Kincaid of Georgetown, District of Columbia [Glasgow City Archives, Glasgow, UK. Lennox of Woodhead Papers, T-LX 10/11]. The family charts of Heather Veronica Kincaid of Kincaid records that he died in Georgetown, on 10 June 1827. The inventory of the estate papers also note two sons of which the son John was living in New Orleans. It seems to me that he is in the 1820 Federal Census for the District of Columbia, Washington, Georgetown as: James Kincaid, a. 45+, 2 males 18-26; 1 female 45+. James Kincaid, son of John Kincaid of that Ilk and Elizabeth Danziel, was born on 13 June 1770 and baptized in Campsie Parish, Stirling on 19 June 1770. The New York Evening Post records the death of Jas. Kincaid, age 53, at Georgetown, D.C. on Sunday 10 June 1827 in its 13 June 1827 issue. This is consistent with what Heather Veronica Kincaid of Kincaid had in her family chart. As far as the sons are concerned, the family chart of Heather Veronica Kincaid notes a son James who died in 1828 in New Orleans and a son John who died in New Orleans on 8 May 1833. Given the specific date for John I see no reason to doubt this. However, the Lennox of Woodhead Estate papers give the sons as John and George so I wonder about Heather's James dying in 1828. Best wishes! Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don W Kincaid" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] James Kincaid, brother of Laird of Kincaid,District of Columbia > Thanks Peter, > > I was hoping it might be an original research source but was afraid it was > not because of what it stated and thus asked about it. > > I assume you see no problems with the info on James Kincaid of District of > Columbia. > > Don

Thanks Randall. I certainly appreciate the work done by those who have published Kincaid books and really appreciate those who give documentation!!! Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Randall Kincaid To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] James Kincaid, brother of Laird of Kincaid, District of Columbia "Kincaid Family Researches at Random in Scotland, Ireland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Kentucky and Illinois" by James Kimble Young, Jr. is a typescript published by Young in Springfield, Illinois. Young is an Archibald descendant of the A&A line. I have not seen this particular typescript but in others sometimes there is good citation of sources, sometimes none. It is my understanding that the direct descendant line of Archibald in Sangamon/Menard Cos., Illinois, considered Young's work to be so full of errors that they eventually stopped cooperating with him and closed their family records to him. For example, it is Young who in the 1940s/50s jumped to the conclusion that the Thomas Kincaid who married Abigail Irons was son of Archibald, cementing the thought into Thomas descendants in Kentucky. Current evidence favors Andrew of A&A as father of this Thomas. -----Original Message----- >From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <[email protected]> >Sent: Dec 9, 2010 10:45 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [KINCAID] James Kincaid, brother of Laird of Kincaid, District of Columbia > >> " Kincaid, James. From Edinburgh. Son of Alexander K., pharmacist. Settled >> Augusta County, Virginia, ca 1746. Jacobite. (K.F.R., 9)" > >Watch your sources quoting other secondary sources. K.F.R. is is >"Kincaid Family Researches at Random in Scotland, Ireland, >Pennsylvania, Virginia, Kentucky and Illinois" by James Kimble >Young. This is simply an account of some family belief with no >actual source or documentation cited or known. > >Peter > >To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls > >To join the DNA project, go to: >www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I agree that the paper work is excellant. Lesley has worked very hard to get all her ducks in a row but I am still hesitent to mark the line as fully vetted without a close match. The problem is not that this isn't a true family line but that a vetted line says that the DNA profile is that of the given ancestor. That is a primary reason for vetting. In this case we don't know if this is Thomas's DNA profile or not. There may have been an unrecorded non-Kincaid paternal event somewhere along the line. It is not just that Martyn doesn't match Gene. If he had matched anyone in any Group, even someone in the ungrouped section if it could be shown that the ancestral lines did not merge in recent times, then I would not a see a problem. All vetted lines have a near DNA match. We held off vetting #168724 until a confirming DNA sample could be tested. Many participants have had to find someone for testing in order to isolate a mutation before they could be vetted to a specific ancestor. I know that Lesley has struck out in trying to get a DNA sample from the line of one of Charles' other sons. I am wondering if it is possible to trace a line down from John? Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don W Kincaid" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaidand Elizabeth Chielsy I believe Lesley has done an excellent job in documenting the lineage of Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley. There are not many who are documented as well as this one. One of the other well documented ones is for Gene Kincaid, #23547 who shows back to Falkirk Parish in Scotland like Martyn shows so I understand Sue's apprehension on vetting Martyn since his dna does not match with 23547. With the excellent documentation for Martyn, I believe we should show him as vetted. One big reason I believe we should vet Martyn is that there could easily be 2 lines of Kincaid's in Falkirk Parish just as we have found 2 different lines of Kincaid's living next to each other in the Colonies in several instances. If we did not have another participant showing to Falkirk Parish, would anyone have an objection to Martyn's lineage being vetted? I doubt anyone would, given the excellent documentation. If vetted, I would not object to having a note stating that dna results have not confirmed Martyn's lineage to Falkirk or a similar statement. Don, # 1427 ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Liedtke To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaidand Elizabeth Chielsy This is the 2nd call for comments on the post seeking to vet #186057 to Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly. I have asked that comments be directed to the paper trail as a separate entity from the DNA as I have a question as to the advisability of vetting a line without a confirming DNA sample from the furthest ancestor. Normally it takes 2 identical samples from the lines of different sons of a given ancestor to prove the DNA of that ancestor. In most cases we can get around this because we have identical DNA from other Kincaids whose ancestors pre-date the given ancestor or could be descended from the same ancestor by a different son. In cases where there is an unexpected significant mutation, that mutation needs to be isolated before the line can be vetted. As an example:49289 has an unexpected mutation to 9 at marker 15. This is a significant mutation as it is used to separate A-2 Kincaids from A-1 Kincaids, however no other Kincaid (and there are many participants) in the immediate geographic region has this mutation. #49289 could not be vetted until #135736 who does not have the mutation could be vetted to a common ancestor (note other unvetted lines from this ancestor do not have the mutation). In the case of #186057 we do not have identical DNA from anyone else in the project. While Thomas/Elizabeth Chiesly may very well be represented by #186057's DNA, there is also the possibility that an undisclosed non-Kincaid paternal event occurred somewhere along the line. This needs to be ruled out with confirming DNA. Non the less, it would be of immense value to know if the paper research is sound i.e if the DNA were confirmed could this line be vetted. This would facilitate finding a participant from a different son's line to be tested for confirming DNA. Please look over the paper trail and comment. Sue Liedtke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesley Cains" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:31 AM Subject: [KINCAID] Vetting #186057 Martyn Kincaid to Thomas kincaid and Elizabeth Chielsy Vetting Martyn Stuart Kincaid to Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisley Martyn Kincaid DNA kit #186057 Researcher : Lesley Sharon Cains, mother of Martyn Stuart Kincaid and ex wife of Alan John Kincaid ___________________________________________________________ Martyn Stuart Kincaid 'Living' b.1987, Lilydale,Victoria Australia not married. Proven by; Australian birth certificate (original available) for Martyn Stuart Kincaid; parents listed as Alan John Kincaid and Lesley Sharon Kincaid nee Cains. Personal knowledge; I know my son is the son of Alan John Kincaid. ____________________________________________________________ Alan John Kincaid 'Living" b.1957 Carlton Victoria Australia m Lesley Sharon Cains in 1986 at Numurkah Victoria Australia (certificate available). Son of Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. Proven by; Australian birth certificate for Alan John Kincaid listing parents as Bertram Langley Kincaid and Dorothy Dawn Nash. Personal knowledge; I personally know the parents and siblings of Alan John Kincaid all of whom acknowledge him as the son of Bertram Langley Kincaid. The parents and 3 of the 4 siblings of Alan John Kincaid are all still living. The siblings of Alan John Kincaid are Robert Charles Kincaid, Karen Eileen Kincaid, Helen Jean Kincaid and Heather Kincaid (1963-1963). _____________________________________________________________ Bertram Langley Kincaid 'Living' b.1930 Daylesford, Victoria Australia m Dorothy Dawn Nash 16 October 1955 Camberwell Victoria Australia. Son of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters (both deceased). Proven by; Australian birth certificate for Bertram Langley Kincaid listing his parents as Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters, as confirmed by Bertram Langley Kincaid who resides in Victoria Australia. Australian death certificate's (copies available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid (nee Waters) listing Bertram Langley Kincaid as their son, and also Bertram's siblings John (dec'd), Eileen (dec'd), Valma and Arthur David. Australian Electoral Roll records 1954 showing Bertram Langley Kincaid living at the home of Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid with his siblings Arthur and John. Springvale Victoria Australia crematorium records for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Kincaid. Website look up; http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php?page=search&s_res=GO&cid=330&Given_N ames=&Surname=kincaid&Surname_ex=&hw_num=100 Personal knowledge; I personally knew both parents of Bertram Langley Kincaid and attended their funeral services. I personally knew both Valma Jean Kincaid and Arthur David Kincaid (both now deceased) siblings of Bertram Langley Kincaid. The family also told me of Eileen Hilda Kincaid, sister of Bertram Langley Kincaid who married William St Dennis and migrated to the United States, her social security death index ssn 037-20-3410 Rhode Island date of death August 1976, and California passenger & Crew list showing Eileen St Denis & William St Denis arriving in California 12 Sep 1946, with Eileen on an Australian passport with notation of her maiden name confirms what the family have related to me. Alan John Kincaid also told of Bertram's deceased brother John Charles Kincaid who died alone following an accident in his home in 1978 as proven by his obituary and Springvale Crematorium records. ____________________________________________________________ Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid b. 7 January 1902 Daylesford Victoria Australia m Sarah Rita Waters 24 March 1922 Mildura Victoria Australia (certificate available). Son of Charles Langley Kincaid and Elizabeth Nelson. Proven by; Australian birth record #2384 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid DOB as 7 January 1902 listing his parents as Charles Kincaid (a Miner aged 42) and Elizabeth Kincaid, formerly Nelson (aged 42) living at Eganstown Victoria, who were married 13 April 1891. Siblings shown on the certificate are Grace Cowling Kincaid, Alice Kincaid, Eliza Kincaid, Clarice Kincaid and Helena Kincaid (dec'd). Australian marriage record #558 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and Sarah Rita Waters married on 24 March 1922 at St Margaret's Vicarage Mildura, listing Arthur's father as Charles Langley Kincaid, a Miner as his father and Elizabeth Nelson as his mother. Australian death record #12575/83 (copy available) for Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid date of death 6 June 1983 at Heatherton Victoria Australia, retired aged 81 years and born in Daylesford Victoria. Fathers name showing as Charles Kincaid and mother as Elizabeth Kincaid (maiden name Nelson), certified by his wife Sarah (known as Rita) Kincaid. This certificate also shows Arthur was 20 years old when he married Sarah Rita Waters in Mildura and that he was still married at the time of his death, children listed as Arthur aged 61 yrs, Valma aged 59 yrs, Eileen (deceased), John (deceased), Bertram aged 53 years. Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1924, 1931, 1936, 1937 and 1949 detailing his address and family members (available to view on Ancestry.com). An on-line Australian newspaper Archive record detailing the death of his sister Clarice Leona Kincaid and recording that her body was identified by her brother Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid reads; "Found dead in the bush, died from exposure, exhaustion and natural causes (refer to inquest & newpaper articles), VPRS 24/P Unit 1031 File 92 Clarice Leona Kincaid died on or about 28 Dec 1922 from exhaustion during the first stages of labour. Body identified by brother - Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid (stonemason) residing at Victoria park Daylesford. Arthur Angove aged 16 from Daylesord was one of those that found her along with Frank Stevens and James Langdon who were bird nesting on Angus Hill, on the Cornish Reef". (ref; http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1871036?searchTerm=clarice+kinc aid). Springvale Victoria Crematorium records showing that he was cremated 8 June 1983. Personal knowledge; I personally knew Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid and visited his home with Alan John Kincaid, I also attended his funeral service. I identified the address' given in the Australian Electoral Roll's from my visits to his home, and the earlier address' from when I took Sarah Rita Kincaid back To Daylesford and she showed me her old home. Sarah Rita Kincaid also took me to her own parents' grave, explaining that Arthur Charles Nelson Kincaid was a stonemason by trade and made her parents tombstone and many others in the Kyneton & Daylesford area. Sarah told me they had named their son Bertram Langley Kincaid after Arthur's father Charles Langley Kincaid. _______________________________________________________________________ Charles Langley Kincaid b.21 Apr 1859 Mt Egerton Victoria Australia m Elizabeth Nelson 30 April 1891 Daylesford Victoria (certificate available). Son of Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Rae. Proven by; Australian birth record #154 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid DOB as 21 April 1859 at Mount Egerton Victoria, details show father as Thomas William Kincaid a Miner in aged 36 years and born Cape of Good Hope, marriage details on this record for Thomas William Kincaid given as "1845 Stepney London", other children "Thomas Kincaid and Alconda Degney Kincaid". Mother as Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae, aged 31 years from Waterford Ireland and signed by Thomas William Kincaid, father. Australian marriage record #4032 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid and Eliza Nelson 30 April 1891 at the Bible Christian parsonage Daylesford. This record details Charles aged as 32 years as son of Thomas William Kincaid a Miner, and Elizabeth Rae. Australian death record #1813 (copy available) for Charles Langley Kincaid, a Miner died 28 May 1931 at the District Hospital Daylesford aged 72 years, his parents are given as Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Kincaid formerly Rae. It shows Charles was buried on 30 May 1931 at Daylesford cemetery and that he was born in Eganstown and had lived in Victoria his whole life. His children are listed as Grace 39 years, Alice 38 years, Myrtle 35 years, Clarice (deceased) and Arthur 29 years. Australian Electoral Roll's for the years 1914, 1924 and 1928 detailing his address and family members. Obituary; (1) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Friday, May 29, 1931 FUNERAL NOTICE KINCAID -The friends of the late Mr. Charles Langley Kincaid are respectfully informed that his remains will be interred in the Dayiesford Cemetery TOMORROW (Saturday) May 30. The Funeral is appointed to leave the mortuary parlour of R. F. Verey at 1.30 pm. R. F. Verey, Funeral Director. Phone 245. (2) THE DAYLESFORD ADVOCATE Tuesday 2 June, 1931 OBITUARY CHARLES LANGLEY KINCAID The death occurred on Thursday morning last, of Mr Charles Langley Kincaid, after a long illness, at the age of 72 years. The late Mr. Kincaid was born in Eganstown district, and had resided in this locality all his life. For many years he was connected to the mining industry. Mrs. Kincaid and an adult family of three daughters and one son survive to mourn their loss, one daughter having predeceased Mr. Kincaid some years ago. The funeral took place on Saturday afternoon, and was largely attended. The casket was carried by Messrs. M. Dickson, W. Spear, W. Burnett (sons-in-law), C. Nelson (nephew), A. Dickson and J. Dickson. Rev. S. D. Yarrington conducted the service at the graveside, and the funeral arrangements were in the hands of Mr. R. F. Verey. Grave; Grave C of E 4 C 6 In loving memory of Charles Langley Kincaid, Elizabeth Kincaid, and Grace Cowling Dickson died 18 Feb, 1982. The personal knowledge of his grandson Bertram Langley Kincaid, who has confirmed the above for me. ______________________________________________________________ Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m (i) Elizabeth Catherine Barrett on 18 May 1845 Stepney London (certificate available). Elizabeth Catherine Barratt died 13 March 1850. This marriage produced one child, Thomas Hardie Kincaid b. 16 February 1849 (certificate available) Rotherhithe England and died 3 February 1929 at Rotherhithe London UK. Thomas William Kincaid b.2 August 1823 Cape of Good Hope, South Africa m (ii) Eliza Rae on 16 Nov 1850 Victoria Australia Son of Charles Kincaid and Hillegonda Sophia Row. Proven by; Beaufort West, South Africa Baptism register on microfilm number 5-39, "Child Thomas William born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823. Parents Charles Kincaid, Hilegonda [sic] Sophia Roow [sic]. Witnesses Joseph Cleaver, Susanna Frederica Roow [sic], Willem Roow[sic], Anna Roow[sic]". (photograph of document ordered from GISA and available November 2010). Beaufort West South Africa Baptism record, born 2 August 1823, baptised 17 August 1823 as per the SA Genealogies by Lombard & Hesse, page 277 (this record purchased from GISA, Genealogy Institute of South Africa) and also provided by contact with Joy Roy (a descendant of Thomas William Kincaid and professional researcher), Heather McAllister and Tessa King (Administrators for Ancestry24.com). Details taken from the - UK Marriage record for Thomas William Kincaid (of full age, a Mariner Chief Officer - son of Charles Kincaid, a sadler) to Elizabeth Catherine Barratt (with consent of parents) on 18 May 1845 at St Thomas' Church Stepney UK, witnessed by William Brown & Sophia Barratt (copy available). Taken from the - UK Birth record (copy available) of Thomas Hardie Kincaid 16 February 1849, father given as Thomas William Kincaid (Master Mariner) mother as Elizabeth Catherine Kincaid formerly Barratt. Taken from the - Australian Death record #14665 (copy on available) 14 December 1903 at Leonards Hill Victoria Australia, Thomas William Kincaid aged 80 years. His father was recorded as John Kincaid, profession unknown, information on this record was detailed as being provided by his son John Rae Kincaid. He was buried on 16 December 1903 at Eganstown Public cemetery, and shows he had lived 50 years in Victoria. Place of birth given as Cape Town, Cape Colony South Africa, married to Eliza Rae (not living). The children of Thomas William Kincaid are listed as Charles 44 years, Janet 42 years, John 40 years, Margaret 38 years, Annie 36 years, Isabella 34 years, Eliza 32 years, Thomas William 30 years and Alconda (deceased). The Australian birth records (copies available) for the Children of Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae for Charles Langley 1859, John Rae 1863, Annie Eliza 1868, Elizabeth 1873, Thomas William 1875 all detailing the father and his place of birth as The cape of Good Hope. The birth certificate's for Thomas William Kincaid's children; John Rae Kincaid in 1863 details Thomas William Kincaid & Eliza Rae married in Melbourne 1851. On Annie Eliza's record it details 'Melbourne', on Elizabeth's as 16 November 1850 and on Thomas' 1875 birth record as 26 November 1850. Australian death record (copy available) for daughter Alconda Kincaid aged 14 years 27 May 1870 in Eganstown details her parents as Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid, and that Alconda was born in Newstead, Melbourne Victoria Australia. The Australian marriage certificate for daughter Janet Hardie Kincaid (copy available) 25 October 1887 shows her parents as Thomas William Kincaid and Eliza Kincaid nee Rae, on her death record in 1933 (copy available) her parents were given as John Kincaid (a Miner) and Eliza Kincaid formerly Rae as provided by S Brown, authorised agent When youngest son Thomas William Kincaid died in 1959 at aged 84 his parents were listed as unknown. Australian 1903 Electoral Roll showing Thomas William Kincaid living at Leonards Hill Victoria, occupation Miner. Australian Rate Books - Mt Franklin Victoria from 1872 - 1902 Australian Newspaper Archive - Daylesford Advocate Thursday 17 December 1903 - The late Mr Kincaid; The remains of Mr T W Kincaid were interred in the Eganstown Public Cemetery yesterday. The funeral started from his late residence at Leonard's Hill and comprised of mourners in eight conveyances and seven horsemen. The bearers were Messers Kramer, Aldridge, McKidrew (2), Ladigus and Blackwell, Mr Taylor read the burial service. Messer's Verey Bros had charge of the mortuary arrangements. _____________________________________________________ Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (i) Hillegonda Sophia Row on 3 August 1818 Cape of Good Hope (Hillegonda born 1800, died 4 February 1831). Charles Kincaid b.3 May 1791 m (ii) Christina Johanna Marian Sporkman, widow of John Herbert 12 October 1846 Cape of Good Hope (copy available). Son of John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff Proven by; Scottish OPR record 487/0010 0356 (copy on available) detailing "John Kincaid and Margaret Gaff, their son named Charles was born 3 May 1791 and baptised 8 May, witness' Thomas Kincaid and John Gibb". Website - Old Polmont Church (note - please note that not all details on this website are accurate eg Sir John Kincaid given as never married, he in fact married Louisa Frisbee a month before his death). refer www.polmontold.org.uk/hist1845part06.html >From the list of passengers arriving in South Africa on board the Ship 'The Brilliant' in 1817, Charles Kincaid was part of a group of Scottish Artisans organised by Benjamin Moodie. >From the Book - British Residents at the Cape 1795-1819, by David Phillip page 222, in part reads - "Kincaid, Charles, saddler single arrived 4 June 1817 Table Bay, in Brilliant ex Downs under Moodies direction. 2 August 1817 has commenced business (saddle, cap and harness maker). 3 August 1818 marriage of CK of Falkirk, Stirling aged 27 to Hillegonda Sophia d,o, Robt. Row aged 18. 6 June 1819 baptised their son John Robert. 18 March 1821 baptised of their son Charles Langley". >From the National Archives of South Africa - in 1818 'memorials received, Charles Kincaid requesting permission to remain in the Colony. >From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid aged 27, birthplace Falkirk Stirling married at The English Church to Hillegonda Sophia Row aged 18 born at The Cape on 3 August 1818 as published in The Capetown Gazette. Marriage certificate (copy available) Charles Kincaid (widower, occupation Sadler) married in Paarl South Africa to Christina Johanna Maria Sporkman (widow). Death certificate #2505 (copy available) Charles Kincaid born in Scotland, married died on 5 March 1866. Lists the children of his 2nds wife's previous marriage and John Robert Kincaid as son with Hillegonda Sophia. >From the National Archives of South Africa - Charles Kincaid will filed 1866. >From the South African Commercial Advisor - (1) 1826, a daughter of Mr C Kincaid baptised Jessy, (2) 1829 a son of Mr Charles Kincaid baptised Alexander Row, (3) 1831 February 4, Sophia Kincaid wife of Mr C Kincaid died aged 30 years and 6 months. Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill Kincaid" Reference; pamphlet obtained in full from The National Archives of South Africa "The Kincaid Family in South Africa" by JJ Scheepers and confirmed by Leonard Kincaid who resides in South Africa son of Joy Scheepers & Donald Kincaid descendants of John Robert Kincaid b.1819 at the Cape of Good Hope. _________________________________________________________________ John Kincaid b.10 June 1762 Polmont Stirlingshire Scotland m Margaret Gaff (marriage on OPR's shows 20 Nov 1784 Bothkennar & 16 Dec 1784 as the Proclamation Polmont for both parties) Son of Thomas Kincaid and Elizabeth Chiesly (Cheesley) Proven by; Scottish OPR Baptism record 487/0010 0084 13 June 1762, "Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chiesly their son named John was born 10 June and baptised 13 June, witness' Alexander and Robert Kincaid and John Clark". (Copy Available) Scottish OPR marriage record 473/000010/0260 20th November 1784 marriage bans, naming John Kincaid if Dalbeath. "(copy available). Falkirk Churchyard Grave 184, John Kincaid death 11 February 1794 aged 33 years. Reference; book - Mitchell, John Fowler. Monumental inscriptions (pre 1855) in East Stirlingshire. Edinburgh: Scottish Genealogy Society, 1972]. "John Kincaid, 1st son of Thos Kincaid & Eliz Chislie, age 33, at Carronflats on 11 February 1794; John's wife, Margt Gaff, age 85, on 5 February 1844; John's 1st son, Thos Kincaid, age 63, at Glasgow on 31 December 1848; John's youngest son, Alex Kincaid, age 17, having drowned by shipwreck on coast of Durham on 27 January 1806; John's 2nd son, John Kincaid, 76, at Hastings on 23 April 1862, (having entered the army in 1809 & served throughout the Peninsular war with Rifle Brigade, knighted 1852, senior exon of HM Royal Bodyguard & for many years government inspector of prisons & factories for Scotland); John's (Margt Gaff) only daughter, Margt Kincaid, age 71, widow of the late Peter Hardie, merchant in Leith, on 6 October 1863; and John's 3rd son, Charles Kincaid, age 73, at Pearl Cape of Good Hope on 5 March 1866" (Note - Information provided by both Peter A Kincaid, Canada and also Ann Taylor, nee Kincaid England UK and confirmed verbally that this Book available from the National Library of Australia, Canberra Australia, copies of relevant extracts pending). Reference; made available courtesy of Peter A Kincaid, Canada. "John Kincaid, son of Thomas Kincaid, farmer, Newlands, as heir to Alexander Chiesly, Tenant, Newlands, his grandfather, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbeith, with Ferry Boat & fishing in Carron, & Teinds, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Chan. Oct. 7. 1788. P.R. 30. 184. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1394. Registered 20 October 1788]". "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, as heir to Elizabeth Chiesly, his mother, seised, Oct. 18. 1788, -in part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, and Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Pr. Cl. Con. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30.185. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1395. Registered 20 October 1788]". "John Kincaid of Dalbaith, gets Resig. ad Rem. Oct. 18. 1788, -of part of Bothkennar called Dalbaith, with Ferry Boat, & Fishing in Carron, par. Bothkennar; -on Proc. resig. by himself, Oct. 18. 1788. P.R. 30. 186. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 1396. Registered 20 October 1788]". "The Trustees of John Kincaid of Dalbaith, seised, Mar. 22. 1800, -in an Oxengate of land of Bothkennar called Dalbaith with the Ferry Boat and part of the fishing of the Water of Carron, and Teinds; (&2 Oxengates of land of the lands of Bothkennar in warrandice), par. Bothkennar; -under burden of £50 each to John, Alexander, and Charles Kincaid, and 500 Merks Scots to Margaret Kincaid, younger children of the said John Kincaid, &c; -on Disp. & Settlement by the said John Kincaid, & Margaret Gaff, his spouse, Sept. 6. 1793. P.R. 36.35. [Abridgement of Sasines, Stirling, 1781-1820, vol. 1, no. 3904. Registered 20 May 1800]". Reference; book - "This I'll Defend, The Story of the Kincaid's by Bill Kincaid" Reference; Book - "Adventures of The Rifle Brigade" by sibling Sir John Kincaid detailing his family, father John Kincaid. ___________________________________________________________________ Thomas Kincaid b. circa 1731 Falkirk Scotland m Elizabeth Chiesly 12 July 1761. Son of (unknown - possible either of James Kincaid & Janet Simson, or John Kincaid & Jean Kincaid) Proven by; Marriage record - Scottish OPR Marriage Ban 479/00008 00237 10 July 1761 Falkirk, and Scottish OPR Marriage proclamation Polmont 487/00002 0016 (copies available) this record names Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Chielsy but neither of their parents. _________________________________________________________________ Other resources used; Ancestry.com record search for BDM records, Census returns, travel records, Australian Electoral Rolls. Ancestry24.com for South African research re BDM's, Wills and application to remain in the Colony. Ancestry.Co.ZA to view & purchase South African death records. Scotslands People (www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) record search for OPR records re BDM's, Census & Wills. GISA (Genealogical Institute of South Africa) for South African family history records. NAAIRS for South African records re BDM's, Wills and application to remain in the Colony etc. Book - British Residents at The Cape 1795-1819 by David Phillip. On-Line Book - Extracts of Marriages at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821. On-Line Book - Extracts of Baptisms at The Cape of Good Hope 1806-1821 192.com for UK contacts. Springvale Crematorium Records for confirming Australian deaths. The Australian National Archives. The Australian National Library. The Victorian Government Public Records Office. The Victorian Registry of Birth, Deaths & Marriages. The Daylesford Family History Society. The Australian WW2 Nominal Roll. The Kincaid family living in Australia. Trove - Australian newspapers on line. London newspaper archives on line. Edinburgh newspaper archives on line. The Genealogical Society of South Africa historical newspapers on line. Google. Note - Australia does not have census returns as these are not archived after the government has collated the data it requires. __________________________________________________________________________ Footnote's - John Kincaid & Margaret Gaff had 5 children; Son Thomas, a Merchant baptised 30 October 1785, died 31 December 1848. Married Isabella Balloch 17 January 1818 and produced 5 sons and 5 daughters per the OPR records. OPR & BDM records show that 4 of the sons died without marrying, and John living in Lancashire unmarried aged 60 yrs in 1881. Son John Kincaid baptised 29 July 1787, died 23 April 1862. Married Louisa Frisbee 19 March 1862, no children. Son Alexander christened 7 June 1789, died in a shipwreck 27 January 1806. Never married, no children. Son Charles as detailed above in vetting. Daughter Margaret christened 22 July 1795, died 6 October 1863. Married Peter Hardie 8 March 1811 and produced 4 sons and 1 daughter. Both her son's Thomas Kincaid Hardie and John Hardie travelled to Australia in search of gold. Thomas married Janet Hoyle in Victoria 1848, returning to the UK to 'live off his own means' as a 'retired Australian Squatter'. John married Elizabeth Hoyle in Victoria Australia 1841, this couple also returned to the UK. Thomas Kincaid & Elizabeth Cheisly's son Alexander b.1764 married Jean Clark. This couple had 6 children, their son Thomas b.1796 was 'Captain Thomas Kincaid - Shipmaster' who married Ann Henderson. Two of Thomas & Ann's sons died overseas - Alexander b.1839 died 1892 in Buenos Ayres and James b.1903 died in 1903 Patagonia Argentina. Their 2nd eldest of their son's , John George Kincaid born in 1840 founded J G Kincaid Shipping in Inverclyde. John G Kincaid married Margaret Grierson, their eldest son Thomas Lennox Kincaid b.1877 travelled to Australia settling in NSW. He married there in 1936 and died in December 1940, (His death certificate is available). His wife's son by her 1st marriage, Hilton Grenville Marcuso who had links to the notorious Kings Cross criminal underworld, took the Kincaid surname, and died in NSW Australia in 1975. Hillegonda Sophia Row, wife of Charles Kincaid - was born at The Cape of Good Hope in 1800 and dies at aged 31 on 4 February 1831 as listed in the South African Commercial Adviser. Hillegonda was the daughter of Englishman Robert Row and Helena Wilhelma Aspeling. Helena & Robert married at The Cape on 14 April 1800, she was the widow of Lambrecht Van der Woord and had two children by him (Johanna Louise and Jan Christian). Helena and Robert had 3 other children; Susannah Frederika Row 1802 - 1831. Susannah married Joseph Cleaver (soap manufacturer) in 1823 at Beaufort West and this couple were witness' to the marriage of Hillegonda & Charles Kincaid's son Thomas William Kincaid's baptism at the Dutch Reformed Church in Beaufort West August 1823. They had one child, a daughter Ann born in 1824 and died in 1825. Joseph Cleaver died in 1824. Johanna Margaretha Row 1802-1848. Johanna married Samuel Mollett in 1834. Robert James Row 1809-1839. Hillegonda's mother was Hillegonda Kotze also born at The Cape of Good Hope as was her mother before her. It was Hillegonda Rows Gr Gr grandparents that came to The Cape from Germany and The Nederland's, and her grandfather Erik Aspeling from Sweden. Charles Kincaid & Hillegonda Row's 1st born son was John Robert Kincaid born 1819. He married Frances Dorothea Fison 10th July 1846, and this couple had six children; Charles John Kincaid 5 Jan 1848 Thomas Henrik Herbert Kincaid 20 Apr 1851 - 29 June 1923 (married Sarah Maria Holmes, and had six children, see below) Dorothea Christina Kincaid 11 Mar 1853 married Richard Walton Alexander Frederick Kincaid 10 Apr 1855 Ellen Elizabeth Kincaid 18 Jan 1857 Elizabeth Harriette Kincaid 21 Mar 1860 Thomas Hendrik Herbert and Sarah Maria Holmes went on to have six children; Gertrude Frances Kincaid 16 Jul 1884 Percy Frederick Kincaid 11 Nov 1886 - 22 May 1967 married (1) Alice Maud Poggenpoel, 2 children John b 15 May 1926 and Maud b 28 Sep 1914 (2) Iris Alexandria Morkel, one son Charles Morkel Kincaid b 22 Dec 1932. (Charles married Maria VanSchalkwyk and had 2 sons, John 15 Jan 1963 and Paul in 1965. Leonard Thomas Kincaid 25 Jan 1888 - 1965, married Charlotte Augusta Gerhardt. This couple had 3 children; Gwendoline 28 Sep 1916 - 1956, Roland Kincaid b.1920 and Donald Kincaid 16 Aug 1929. Donald married Joy Scheepers and they had 3 children; Leonard, Gary & Mark Kincaid. Mildred Constance Kincaid 10 Aug 1891 Charles Henry Kincaid 24 Sep 1894, married Enid Audrey Holmes (Enid was born in Rockhampton Qld 4 May 1901) Gwendoline Jessie Holmes Kincaid 31 Oct 1897. The information re John Robert Kincaid and his descendants became available from a NAAIRS document 'The Kincaid family in South Africa' and a list of Kincaid births and marriages purchased from GISA. Leonard Kincaid (son of Donald and Joy - see 3 above) who still resides in South Africa, has confirmed all of the above for me also advising he has 2 sons, Mark Douglas Kincaid and Luke Richard Kincaid who also reside in South Africa. Thomas Hardie Kincaid born 16 Feb 1849 to Thomas William Kincaid and Elizabeth Catherine Barrett in Stepney, Ratcliff County of Middlesex. His death certificate shows he died on 3 Feb 1829 in Rotherhithe, County of London as witnessed by his daughter Julia Charlotte Howes, nee Kincaid. I am unsure who actually raised Thomas Hardie Kincaid after his mother died in 1850 and his father Thomas William Kincaid left the UK to continue his travels and ultimately end up in Australia. Thomas Hardie Kincaid is mentioned on only one of his ½ siblings Australian birth records, and was not listed on his father's Australian death certificate. Thomas Hardie married Sarah Ann Drake in 1867, and after her death married Elizabeth Abel in 1898. Thomas and Sarah had five children; Julia Charlotte Kincaid 1868-1934 William Henry Brooks Kincaid 1870-1943 Sarah Catherine Kincaid 1873-1911 Eliza Elizabeth Kincaid 1878- Annie Brooks Kincaid 1883-1883 Thomas William Brooks Kincaid 1885 - (date of death unconfirmed). Thomas married Alice May Springall and this couple had 6 children, the youngest being Eric David Hardie Kincaid (children's illustrator and Artist. Eric also did the artwork for Bill Kincaid in his book, This I'll Defend - The Story of the Kincaids). These details have been confirmed with Eric's daughter Ann Taylor (nee Kincaid) and his son David Kincaid in the UK. (Further details available if required). Thankyou To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xlsTo join the DNA project, go to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027-------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotesin the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xlsTo join the DNA project, go to:www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027-------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotesin the subject and the body of the message

> " Kincaid, James. From Edinburgh. Son of Alexander K., pharmacist. Settled > Augusta County, Virginia, ca 1746. Jacobite. (K.F.R., 9)" Watch your sources quoting other secondary sources. K.F.R. is is "Kincaid Family Researches at Random in Scotland, Ireland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Kentucky and Illinois" by James Kimble Young. This is simply an account of some family belief with no actual source or documentation cited or known. Peter

Peter has already identified K.F.R. S.H. refers to Services of Heirs, Decennial Indexes to, vols. 1-4 (1700-1859) Edinburgh 1863-91 N.R. refers to Naturalization Records There are two mcleggs on the list, one is Mary Lou at [email protected] and the other is Michael at [email protected] or [email protected] It is Michael who needs to watch his secondary source citation, not Mary Lou. Michael Clegg >>> "Don W Kincaid" <[email protected]> 12/9/2010 12:39 PM >>> Thanks Mary Lou for the detail info from Boyer's Ship Passenger Lists. I assume the Declaration of Intention was his declaring he planned to become a citizen. If not, what would it be for? I see nothing to indicate this James Kincaid is not the James, son of Kincaid of Kincaid however I wonder about the Nativity, Glasgow part. Would this mean he was born in Glasgow or just that is where he lived prior to coming to VA? Thanks also for the other 2 James Kincaid citations. I wonder how the author determined that James from Edinburgh was the son of Alexander Kincaid, Pharmacist.........would it be from (K.F.R.,9) and if so what is K.F.R., 9? Also what is (S.H.) referring to on the James from Stirlingshire? Thanks to all! Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Clegg To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [KINCAID] James Kincaid, brother of Laird of Kincaid,District of Columbia We have all 4 works in our Genealogy Center collection at the Allen County Public Library in Fort Wayne, IN. I have checked all 4 and will cite the one with the fullest information all 4 offering the same information re: James Kincaid. >From Boyer's Ship Passenger Lists... v. 3 p. 103 "Kincaid, James; nativity, Glasgow, Scotland; arrived at Alexandria in the ship William and John, Capt. Woodhouse, in 1807; Declaration of Intention, 30 Apr. 1816; Proof of Residence, 29 Jan. 1820, witnesses, John Laird, John Murdock; naturalization granted 31 Jan. 1820." The Whyte volume had these 2 additional entries (in addition to the above) for James Kincaid " Kincaid, James. From Edinburgh. Son of Alexander K., pharmacist. Settled Augusta County, Virginia, ca 1746. Jacobite. (K.F.R., 9)" "Kincaid, James. From Stirlingshire. Grandson of John K. of Gartcows. To U.S. before 1835. Heir to his aunt, Elizabeth K. (S.H.)" >>> "Don W Kincaid" <[email protected]> 12/8/2010 1:28 PM >>> In September 2008, there were several posts to the Kincaid List about James Kincaid, 3rd son of John Kincaid of Kincaid. We are in the process of looking for additional information on James and his 2 sons. In addition to the 1820 census information Peter & Barbara provided, we have found that a James Kincaid went through the Naturalization process in District of Columbia, Jan 31, 1820 according to the NARA index. We suspect this is the James, son of John. We also found a James Kincaid on the Passenger & Immigration Lists Index for the year 1807. We found this 1807 immigration info on 4 different indexes and believe this is the James, son of John Kincaid of Kincaid but to verify this I am hoping some Kincaid List member will have one of the books that have the indexes to see if there is any additional info. One is entitled Directory of Scottish Settlers in North America 1625-1825 by David Dobson. Another book is Ship Passenger Lists, the South (1538-1825) by Carl Boyer. Another is New World Immigrants: A Consolidation of Ship Passenger Lists and Associated Data from Periodical Literature by Michael Tepper. The last one is Donald Whytes A Dictionary of Scottish Emigrants to the USA, Vol. 1 We also found the same death date for James Kincaid, son of John as June 10, 1827 and as a resident of Georgetown. We also found another James Kincaid for the year 1798 in Kenneth Scott's Resident Aliens Enabled to Hold Land in New York State, 1790-1825 which might be of interest to someone. Another interesting tidbit was found about Charles E. Kincaid, one time Sec. to the Governor of KY and later news reporter who shot and killed a congressman but was never charged since it was determined to be self defense. On Sept. 3rd, 1884 Charles was granted a passport. Charles is from my line and apparently was quite a character according to the stories on him. I suspect there may be some Congressmen today who might want to kill the news reporters who report on their shady dealings! We have several new prospects for the dna tests and one new participant. Don To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To see the Kincaid of all spellings DNA chart in Excel: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~adgedge/Research/April%202004/Kincaid%20%20DNA.xls To join the DNA project, go to: www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kincaid&Code=J21027 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message