Tim, Concerning Cooper's book "Two Centuries of Brothersvalley" you wrote - > If there are no records before 1769 for Stonycreek Church, how did > Cooper determine all of the ordinations in that congregation in > 1764-1766? I can only find evidence of one of the original families > being in Stonycreek by 1762 in his book. There appears to be a lot of > counterdictions. Am I missing something? I have copies of just portions of the book, but on page 184 there is a description of the STONYCREEK (1770 Organization). This is what you have transcribed in your note on the Stonycreek Congregation. http://www2.fwi.com/~tkimmel/Spec-Stonycreek.htm What I think you missed is the statement in the opening paragraph of Cooper's book, Chapter X (page 184). (Or at least it's significance.) I quote: "The Stony Creek Church is the mother-church to the Brothersvalley Church today. One can only understand the background of the church and area as we look at the early beginnings. A professor of Church History of the Baptist College and Seminary in Philadelphia prepared a manuscript on the history of all Baptist in America in that early day. We quote directly from it in the following." If Cooper had cited his source more accurately, you wouldn't have missed it. The professor is Morgan Edwards 1722-1795. His book (works) is titled "Materials towards a history of the American Baptists" in XII volumes. That explains Cooper's rather ambiguous comment "in that early day". I must confess that though I've seen the an original of an early edition, I didn't write down the publisher or publication date. The book is catalogued at the New York City Public Library as *KD1770 which may be the publication year. I know it is very old, as I saw it in the Rare Books section of the library! At any rate, most of page 89 in the first volume is what is transcribed on p.184 of Cooper and photocopied on p.186. Under the photocopy is the reference to the book and the note: 1770 Stony Creek Church Records. What I can't prove, but feel strongly is the case, is that what Morgan Edwards has in his book is a first hand account that he obtained from someone in the Stonycreek Congregation at the time of his survey. This must have been in 1770 or soon thereafter, since if it were later the account would have included more recent things! As for additional information such as the ordinations which occur elsewhere in Cooper, I assume they came from a variety of sources, such things probably survived in various church meeting notes, oral history, and etc. For example, the name Lodowick Hecker (mentioned elsewhere as Philip's instructor) also is mentioned by Edwards in the section on Ephrata, beginning page 76. In my own case, I happened on the Morgan Edwards citation somewhere other than in Cooper. I think it was in the Encyclopedia Britannica! It was one of my earliest "finds", since till that time I had only the portion of Dr. Stoner's works which survived in our wing of the family. Enough for Morgan Edwards. In my dad's notes is an abstract of a land warrent to Philip Kimmel. "159-3/4 acres. Sur: May 2, 1774. War: June 23, 1769 (one of the first warrrants after opening of land office in 1760)". Not noted is where this land is. If at Stonycreek (Somerset Co PA) the original should be on file in Bedford County which included Somerset at this time. This would get us closer to establishing Philip's presence in Somerset Co before 1770. There are other books covering history of the German Baptist Brethren or Tunkers as they were referred to by Edwards, including a history of Ephrata originally published in German in 1786. Can give more pointers if you're interested in pursuing this direction. M. Jay Kimmel