Did you play the game of "gossip" when you were a child? I think this is even more fun. I suppose that if I wanted to win a law suit I would be more accurate with wills, estates etc. I just use census, places, names, children's names and written family history to confirm linage. The children's names make the best confirmation that it is the person in question. I also have found info in stories told by their friends (and our ancestors).: Porter, Green, Wetzel, Hutchinson, Zane It is evident that there was a bunch of Kilgore's that came over and it took a while to sort out from which bunch my wife descended. We have family history (Hutchinson) that confirms the Rev. Robert Kilgore and his father Robert who fought in the Rev. War. and died in Wise Va. I get the feeling that they all were a "rowdy" lot. Clear back to Kill and gone. Charles R. (Bob) Shaw 2425 Sherwin Dr. Twinsburg Ohio 44087 fax 330 963 6858 cell 330 247 8543 phone 330 425 8819 [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vickie Miller" <[email protected]> To: "Kilgore" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: [KILGORE] Mangled history >I wanted to demonstrate how mangled stories can become. Some of the Marion >Co TN branch of Kilgores who descend from Robert & Winnie believe that the >name change from Douglas to Kilgore occurred after the Kilgore's came to >America-that their ancestors were great Indian fighters who came to have >the name Kilgore because they screamed "Kill" and "Gore" at the Indians >they were fighting. > Another branch has this story: Beth Pryor Harper: "My cousin who is a > daughter of my great uncle on the Kilgore side repeated the log cabin > story for me again. She is a very dertermined person with a memory like > an elephant and I never disagree with her. Now I am backing up on the > whole thing. Here is her story."Three brothers, I believe it was came > over from Ireland together. They had killed a man in self defense but > because of the turmoil in Ireland at that time they escapted and came to > America and changed their name from Douglas to Kilgore. They came from > North Carolina to Tennessee and my great-great grandfather built a solid > walnut house in the Sequatchie Valley near Victoria. In some way a many > got killed on the stairsteps (and my husband remembers seeing the blood > stain they could not remove). and after the killing he sold out and came > to Georgia, and my husband's grandfather bought the house" That is her > story. She is also telling me something about the ! > "Black Douglases: in Ireland, as if they might have been a gang. This > cousin's husband's family later owned the house. She said her father told > her the story may times. This is an old email I printed sent to the > Kilgore list -vjm > > Vickie > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ronald When you say Irish, do you mean Gaelic(sp)? What is the Gaelic word for "gone", not gore. There was a Douglas of the Black "tribe" and his nickname in English was "Kill and Gone". He might be the 9th Earl of Douglas ,1426-1488, the last of the Black Douglas's, whose property was confisticated by the crown in 1454 and he was exiled.. The Kilgore linage I traced back to about 1650 in Down Ireland., but if the story is true, I still need 200 years of Kilgore linage I am trying to trace the linage backwards from Lord Douglas Kilgore 1650-1720. His wife was Margaret Low? I am beginning to understand the importance of documenting where you get the information. I was not really concerned before. Now I can't find my book on the Kilgore's, from whence I found this story. Charles R. (Bob) Shaw 2425 Sherwin Dr. Twinsburg Ohio 44087 fax 330 963 6858 cell 330 247 8543 phone 330 425 8819 [email protected] [email protected] www.engineeredspecialproducts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "RONALD K MYATT" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [KILGORE] Kilgore-Douglas > Ok all, > > You all peaked my interest. So I had to open two of my favorite books to > see if there was an answer. > > The Surnames of Ireland by Edward MacLysaght says; > > (Mac) Kilgore; the Irish form of the name of this North-west Ulster family > is probably Mac Giolla Ghearirr, as Kilgar. Woulfe suggests Mac Giolla > Ghairbh (garbh, rough) hence Kilgarraf also, which is conjectural. He > gives this conjecturally also for Kilcourse. > > Since there was a question as to what KIll and Gore would be in the Irish > here they are. > > The Irish-English Dictionary by Geddes and Gosset; > > Kill; maraigh > Gore; saigh > > These definitions do not add a lot of credence to Kill and Gore being the > battle cry and name. Not a lot of help but the name does seem to be of > Scottish derivation as are a lot of Ulster names. The hard "G" in the > Irish has a "K" sound. > > I would love to see if anyone else has a dictionary that would give a > different definition, or a Scottish dictionary of surnames of language. > > Ron Myatt > > > > > > >> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]; >> [email protected]> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:06:59 -0400> Subject: Re: >> [KILGORE] Kilgore-Douglas> > Ramble on Vickie, I love all these stories.> >> The story I read was "kill and gone" was Kilgore in gailec(Irish). Can > >> anyone conform the translation?> See if you can find The first Kilgore in >> Ireland?> The Black Douglas was not necessarily a person but a linage. >> There were > also the Red Douglas's> James the 9th earl of Douglas was >> supposedly the last Black Douglas. The > next Earl was a red Douglas> It >> gets so confusing.> The 5 great-grandsons of Lord Douglas Kilgore >> (1650-1720) of Scotland fought > in the Rev. War.> Hiram was killed in >> the war.> Cousin Bob> > Charles R. (Bob) Shaw> 2425 Sherwin Dr.> >> Twinsburg Ohio 44087> fax 330 963 6858> cell 330 247 8543> phone 330 425 >> 8819> [email protected]> [email protected]> >> www.engineeredspecialproducts.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: >> "V! > ickie Miller" <[email protected]>> To: "Kilgore" > <[email protected]>> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 11:26 AM> > Subject: [KILGORE] Kilgore-Douglas> > > > Recently the Douglas question > has been raised again regarding the Kilgore > > family. To refresh the > memories of those who may not be acquainted with > > this question, early > Kilgore researchers made the assertion published in > > 1935 in the book > "Charles Kilgore of King's Mountain" by Hugh Addington > > that the > Kilgores were descended from Lord Douglas of Scotland-the > > so-called > "Black Douglas" which meant that the Kilgore name had originally > > been > Douglas. If you look up the name in the Scottish registry of names > > > you'll find this info: The earliest written record of the Kilgore name is > > > this entry: John Kilgour's wife, Janet December 14, 1690, had a child > > > baptized named Mar---Witnesses: Tom Pierce, George Tasker & etal From > > > (Baptisms of November-December 1690 for the earliest Coupar Angus Pa! > rish > > Register. Reproduced by courtesy of the Church of Scotland) a > lso > > included in the book Thomas Kilgore 1712-1822 and his Descendants" > by > > Evelyn Yates Carpenter. The enrtry also states that th!> > e first > known use of the name Kilgore was in connection to a child found > > on a > doorstep of a church and given the NAME of the Church and that local > > > tradition claimed that the child was a junior member of the local powerful > > > Douglas family who'd been recently outlawed and that the child > (presumedly > > male) was left behind to protect it as 'such things were > known to happen.' > > NOTE: the Historical society makes no claim as to > the validity of local > > tradition-merely includes it in their info.> > > This is the same information that Judge G. W. Kilgore received when he > > > also wrote the Scottish Historical Society inquiring about the origin of > > > the Kilgore name. Since there might have been validity to the local > > > tradition, Jerry Penley (who is now sadly deceased and who was the founder > > > of the Kilgore list on Rootswe! > b) made a point of pursuing this matter. > > Jerry Penley was an > outstanding and thorough researcher as any of those > > who ever had the > privelege of working with him can attest. He made > > contact with Douglas > researchers whose research he found to be sound. The > > response was that > all members of the Douglas family were accounted for and > > their lines > can be traced which means that our little foundling was NOT a > > > legitimate member of the Douglas family and also explains why our new > > > member Bob Shaw has been unable to make a connection to the Douglas > > > family-it doesn't exist. It's entirely possible that the child was born > > > out of wedlock to a member of the Douglas family and !> > left on the > doorstep; but he was not a legitimate scion of the family. > > Jerry's > findings can be found by searching the Kilgore list archives > > > at:http://boards.rootsweb.com/surname.aspx. Type in the name Kilgore and > > > it should take you to the list. The entries should be fo! > und around > > 1995-1996. Sorry, I'm not more specific than that-but I > 'm still on pokey > > old dial-up because of our location and am just not > inclined to search > > through the Archives. If anyone wishes to find > them-type in the word > > Douglas and sooner or later, Jerry's info he > obtained from the Douglas > > researchers should be found. As to the > assertions by early Kilgore > > researchers, it seems they took "local > tradition" one step further and > > made it fact. Jerry Penley later took > that "fact" and made it an unproven > > assertion. It should be noted that > there is absolutely no proof that the > > foundling child was in fact the > ancestor of the Kilgores of America. > > Note: that the Historical society > included only the fir!> > st known instance of the name-it doesn't list > any possible subsequent> > findings of the name (nor did it give a > location of the church). > > Considering that Kilgore wasn't a preeminent > name in Scotland -such as > > Stuart, Hamilton etc; it may be that > researchers simply didn't look all > > that hard into th! > e origin of the name Kilgore.> >> > While we're on the subject of early > assertions made by Kilgore > > researchers, we might as well tackle the > "Kill" and "Gore" question. > > Judge G. W. Kilgore claimed that the name > Kilgore was derived from the > > habit of the "Black Douglas" to scream > the words Kill and Gore at his > > enemies in the heat of battle. Note > that the historical society claimed > > that the child (if indeed he was > our ancestor) was given the name of the > > church. Note too-that the > Black Douglas would almost certainly have been > > screaming his war cry > in Scottish Gaelic-not the King's English. So I > > wouldn't place much > faith in this origin story either.> >> > More to follow in later messages. > Apparently I rambled too much and > > there's a size limit these days-so > I'm breaking my rambling up.> >> > Vickie> >> > > -------------------------------> > To unsubscribe from the list, please > send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubs! > cribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the messa > ge> > > > > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the > list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Vickie, thanks for recapping all of this info. Yes, I know all was discussed many years ago but I never made a hard copy so this time around, I am saving both on my hard drive and printing. I am taking no chances on another computer crash nor relying on the archives! Gladys Forgety **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)

Bob, Yes I meant Gaelic but the term Irish is used to distinguish Irish Gaelic from the Welsh and Scottish. The roots are the same and much of the stock but you will never convince an Irishman and a Scot they speak the same language. I can read a little of the Gaelic I lived a couple of years in Ireland, the grammar structure and pronunciation is very similar to German. My little pocket dictionary of Irish did not have the word gone in it. I forgot to include that in the email, sorry. I found the following site on line with gone in Irish www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary that should help all of us. "Gone" does not seem to have a direct translation into Irish, but is a suggested using the past tense of other words... Since there is a church in Scotland with the Kilgore name I would think that would be the area to search for the meaning of the name. The only reason as far as I can speculate the Kilgore name ended up in Ireland was as part of the great Plantation of the 1600's when the English broke the clans by transporting the troublemakers to Northern Ireland and displacing the Irish catholics of the region. County Down is Part of the Northern counties where the Scots were transplanted, as is county Derry where the surname book indicates the name originates. But I also take this with a grain of salt, the book is only as good as the researchers. I have not researched what records are available on the "Plantation" to see if individuals or even clans are listed. i will try to delve into that in the next few days. I tie into the Robert and Winnie Kilgore line through the Martin line in eastern Tennessee and have not yet reached the other side of the ocean on that line. > From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]; [email protected]> Subject: Re: [KILGORE] Kilgore-Douglas> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 20:04:48 -0400> > Ronald> When you say Irish, do you mean Gaelic(sp)?> What is the Gaelic word for "gone", not gore. There was a Douglas of the > Black "tribe" and his nickname in English was "Kill and Gone". He might be > the 9th Earl of Douglas ,1426-1488, the last of the Black Douglas's, whose > property was confisticated by the crown in 1454 and he was exiled.. The > Kilgore linage I traced back to about 1650 in Down Ireland., but if the > story is true, I still need 200 years of Kilgore linage> > I am trying to trace the linage backwards from Lord Douglas Kilgore > 1650-1720. His wife was Margaret Low?> > I am beginning to understand the importance of documenting where you get > the information. I was not really concerned before. Now I can't find my > book on the Kilgore's, from whence I found this story.> > Charles R. (Bob) Shaw> > 2425 Sherwin Dr.> Twinsburg Ohio 44087> fax 330 963 6858> cell 330 247 8543> phone 330 425 8819> [email protected]> [email protected]> www.engineeredspecialproducts.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "RONALD K MYATT" <[email protected]>> To: <[email protected]>> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 6:39 PM> Subject: Re: [KILGORE] Kilgore-Douglas> > > > Ok all,> >> > You all peaked my interest. So I had to open two of my favorite books to > > see if there was an answer.> >> > The Surnames of Ireland by Edward MacLysaght says;> >> > (Mac) Kilgore; the Irish form of the name of this North-west Ulster family > > is probably Mac Giolla Ghearirr, as Kilgar. Woulfe suggests Mac Giolla > > Ghairbh (garbh, rough) hence Kilgarraf also, which is conjectural. He > > gives this conjecturally also for Kilcourse.> >> > Since there was a question as to what KIll and Gore would be in the Irish > > here they are.> >> > The Irish-English Dictionary by Geddes and Gosset;> >> > Kill; maraigh> > Gore; saigh> >> > These definitions do not add a lot of credence to Kill and Gore being the > > battle cry and name. Not a lot of help but the name does seem to be of > > Scottish derivation as are a lot of Ulster names. The hard "G" in the > > Irish has a "K" sound.> >> > I would love to see if anyone else has a dictionary that would give a > > different definition, or a Scottish dictionary of surnames of language.> >> > Ron Myatt> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]; > >> [email protected]> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:06:59 -0400> Subject: Re: > >> [KILGORE] Kilgore-Douglas> > Ramble on Vickie, I love all these stories.> > >> The story I read was "kill and gone" was Kilgore in gailec(Irish). Can > > >> anyone conform the translation?> See if you can find The first Kilgore in > >> Ireland?> The Black Douglas was not necessarily a person but a linage. > >> There were > also the Red Douglas's> James the 9th earl of Douglas was > >> supposedly the last Black Douglas. The > next Earl was a red Douglas> It > >> gets so confusing.> The 5 great-grandsons of Lord Douglas Kilgore > >> (1650-1720) of Scotland fought > in the Rev. War.> Hiram was killed in > >> the war.> Cousin Bob> > Charles R. (Bob) Shaw> 2425 Sherwin Dr.> > >> Twinsburg Ohio 44087> fax 330 963 6858> cell 330 247 8543> phone 330 425 > >> 8819> [email protected]> [email protected]> > >> www.engineeredspecialproducts.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: > >> "V!> > ickie Miller" <[email protected]>> To: "Kilgore" > > <[email protected]>> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 11:26 AM> > > Subject: [KILGORE] Kilgore-Douglas> > > > Recently the Douglas question > > has been raised again regarding the Kilgore > > family. To refresh the > > memories of those who may not be acquainted with > > this question, early > > Kilgore researchers made the assertion published in > > 1935 in the book > > "Charles Kilgore of King's Mountain" by Hugh Addington > > that the > > Kilgores were descended from Lord Douglas of Scotland-the > > so-called > > "Black Douglas" which meant that the Kilgore name had originally > > been > > Douglas. If you look up the name in the Scottish registry of names > > > > you'll find this info: The earliest written record of the Kilgore name is > > > > this entry: John Kilgour's wife, Janet December 14, 1690, had a child > > > > baptized named Mar---Witnesses: Tom Pierce, George Tasker & etal From > > > > (Baptisms of November-December 1690 for the earliest Coupar Angus Pa!> > rish > > Register. Reproduced by courtesy of the Church of Scotland) a> > lso > > included in the book Thomas Kilgore 1712-1822 and his Descendants" > > by > > Evelyn Yates Carpenter. The enrtry also states that th!> > e first > > known use of the name Kilgore was in connection to a child found > > on a > > doorstep of a church and given the NAME of the Church and that local > > > > tradition claimed that the child was a junior member of the local powerful > > > > Douglas family who'd been recently outlawed and that the child > > (presumedly > > male) was left behind to protect it as 'such things were > > known to happen.' > > NOTE: the Historical society makes no claim as to > > the validity of local > > tradition-merely includes it in their info.> > > > This is the same information that Judge G. W. Kilgore received when he > > > > also wrote the Scottish Historical Society inquiring about the origin of > > > > the Kilgore name. Since there might have been validity to the local > > > > tradition, Jerry Penley (who is now sadly deceased and who was the founder > > > > of the Kilgore list on Rootswe!> > b) made a point of pursuing this matter. > > Jerry Penley was an > > outstanding and thorough researcher as any of those > > who ever had the > > privelege of working with him can attest. He made > > contact with Douglas > > researchers whose research he found to be sound. The > > response was that > > all members of the Douglas family were accounted for and > > their lines > > can be traced which means that our little foundling was NOT a > > > > legitimate member of the Douglas family and also explains why our new > > > > member Bob Shaw has been unable to make a connection to the Douglas > > > > family-it doesn't exist. It's entirely possible that the child was born > > > > out of wedlock to a member of the Douglas family and !> > left on the > > doorstep; but he was not a legitimate scion of the family. > > Jerry's > > findings can be found by searching the Kilgore list archives > > > > at:http://boards.rootsweb.com/surname.aspx. Type in the name Kilgore and > > > > it should take you to the list. The entries should be fo!> > und around > > 1995-1996. Sorry, I'm not more specific than that-but I> > 'm still on pokey > > old dial-up because of our location and am just not > > inclined to search > > through the Archives. If anyone wishes to find > > them-type in the word > > Douglas and sooner or later, Jerry's info he > > obtained from the Douglas > > researchers should be found. As to the > > assertions by early Kilgore > > researchers, it seems they took "local > > tradition" one step further and > > made it fact. Jerry Penley later took > > that "fact" and made it an unproven > > assertion. It should be noted that > > there is absolutely no proof that the > > foundling child was in fact the > > ancestor of the Kilgores of America. > > Note: that the Historical society > > included only the fir!> > st known instance of the name-it doesn't list > > any possible subsequent> > findings of the name (nor did it give a > > location of the church). > > Considering that Kilgore wasn't a preeminent > > name in Scotland -such as > > Stuart, Hamilton etc; it may be that > > researchers simply didn't look all > > that hard into th!> > e origin of the name Kilgore.> >> > While we're on the subject of early > > assertions made by Kilgore > > researchers, we might as well tackle the > > "Kill" and "Gore" question. > > Judge G. W. Kilgore claimed that the name > > Kilgore was derived from the > > habit of the "Black Douglas" to scream > > the words Kill and Gore at his > > enemies in the heat of battle. Note > > that the historical society claimed > > that the child (if indeed he was > > our ancestor) was given the name of the > > church. Note too-that the > > Black Douglas would almost certainly have been > > screaming his war cry > > in Scottish Gaelic-not the King's English. So I > > wouldn't place much > > faith in this origin story either.> >> > More to follow in later messages. > > Apparently I rambled too much and > > there's a size limit these days-so > > I'm breaking my rambling up.> >> > Vickie> >> > > > -------------------------------> > To unsubscribe from the list, please > > send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubs!> > cribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the messa> > ge> > > > > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the > > list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message> >> > -------------------------------> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message> > > >

Vickie, thank you for taking your time to catch us new comers up on past research, I certainly appreciate it. Has anyone ever found any of these early Kilgores on a ship's passenger list? And do we have access to a record of departure lists from Ireland??? Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gail Kilgore" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [KILGORE] part 3 > Bob and others, > > Please remember that back when Addington wrote his book, documentation was > not as readily available as it is today. > > This book has been picked apart by this group searching the Kilgore name > and > have proven the information invalid. > > This is what Vicky is trying to say. > > This is also why the wrong information keeps getting printed as valid > solid > documentation when, in fact, it is wrong. > > Not to start an argument but to try and settle the truth, Bob what do you > have as solid in hand documentation of what you have found rather than > what > some other researcher has said? > > Heck, I can say that my husband's line of Kilgore's were first cousins of > Mary Queen of Scots but saying it and proving it is totally two different > things. > > I can also say, any new shred of information found on any of the lines > finds > it way to this list, so this group of researchers can almost call their > work > the "Gospel". > > Gail > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

There is just too many Kilgore's. I'm still going with the 5 from Kings Mountain. Charles R. (Bob) Shaw 2425 Sherwin Dr. Twinsburg Ohio 44087 fax 330 963 6858 cell 330 247 8543 phone 330 425 8819 [email protected] [email protected] www.engineeredspecialproducts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vickie Miller" <[email protected]> To: "Kilgore" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 11:27 AM Subject: [KILGORE] part 3 > Note that this record states that Gabriel's father, Thomas Kilgore whose > birth date is given as ca1759 had 3 brothers one of whom was shot through > at the battle of King's Mountain-would seem to be referring to Robert > Kilgore. In Goodspeed's History of Arkansas-Columbia County. D. L. > Kilgore (Dawson Lea Kilgore s/o Gabriel Lea Kilgore) was included in their > biography section: > > **D. L. Killgore physician, represented Columbia Co in General Assembly of > AR b Robertson Co TN 1823, second child of Gabriel & Matilda (Moore) > Killgore natives of NC. Gabriel moved to TN where he m 1819. A planter > and slave owner and a resident of AR after 1850 until his death at 78, > representative of Union Co in State Legislature, but in 1860, until his > death in 1872, a resident of Columbia Co. Gabriel's father was Thomas > Killgore Revolutionary Soldier, in Battle of King's Mountain where his > brother was killed by his side. Gabriel's wife Matilda's father was Rev. > William Moore of the Old School Presbyterian Church. Matilda d 1876 at 82 > years. D. L. Killgore attended school TN, and at 21 years began study of > medicine at Holly Springs MS where his father had moved in 1823, graduated > from medical college Memphis, TN 1848-49, settled at Three Creeks, Union > Co AR until 1803, (??) moved to Magnolia until after the war, to a farm > six miles from Magnolia where he practiced u! > ntil 1883, after which he lived in Magnolia. Joined Confederate Army in > 1861, Captain of Columbia Guards, 6th Ark Reg of Infantry, later Major. > In 1862 he resigned and returned home, raising Sec Ark Volunteers, elected > Lieut Col was in battles of Farmington and Poison Springs, Mark's Mill and > other battles, surrendered his command at Magnolia. After the war to > purchase medicine he sold his gold watch in Shreveport La. Political > career followed. He m Mary Pearce of Ripley MS 1847. she was d/o Joseph > Pearce of Weakley Co TN. Children of D L and Mary: Pearce Killgore > physician; Dawson L. Killgore physician d 1866; Albert S. Killgore atty of > Magnolia. Pearce Killgore m Miss Bettie Farr of Magnolia. D. L. & Mary > were Methodists 1 7/27 > > > Note this entry states that Thomas Kilgore's brother was killed at King's > Mountain-would seem to be referring to the Hiram Kilgore listed by Judge > G. W. Kilgore. Question: Is this brother who was killed the same as the > one who was shot through? > Thomas Kilgore born c1759 h/o Phoebe Lea is listed with a brother named > Charles Kilgore who married Unice Lea in 1796 Orange Co NC. It is > believed that he was one of the two males listed in the 1786 NC state > census in the household of Lydia Kilgore age under 16 making him born no > earlier than 1770 and meaning he was about 10 when the battle of King's > Mountain took place in 1780. > > These assertions made by Gabriel Lea Kilgore and D. L. Kilgore his son > cast doubts on the 5 Kilgore brothers who purportedly came to America > c1763. We know that it was Charles Kilgore born 1740 who was at the > Battle of Kings Mountain not Charles Kilgore age 10 who later married > Unice Lea in 1796 Orange Co NC. It's my opinion that the 5 men named > Kilgore listed in the book found by G. W. Kilgore were presumed to be > brothers but not proven-indeed evidence seems to refute that. Note too > that we always presume that it was Robert Kilgore who married Winnie > Clayton who was the Robert Kilgore referred to as one of the 5 Kilgore > brothers and was the one who was shot through the body but survived. But, > what if we're wrong?? Maybe it was the Bob Kilgore who was listed in > 1797: > 1797-March 11 Cherokee Country TN:List of names and employments of men > residing in Cherokee country: Bob Kilgore "the worst of bad characters" > (p329 Tennessee Passports). > > We know nothing more about him and in fact it's a presumption that Bob was > a nickname for Robert-but what if this was in fact that Robert Kilgore who > was at King's Mountain? What if this was one of the 3 brothers of Thomas > Kilgore born c1759 who participated in the Rev. War and another was Hiram > who was killed??? What if the other names, James, William & Charles were > just that- names of men named Kilgore who were at the battle but weren't > brothers??? > > It's believed though not proven that Charles & Robert Kilgore were likely > the sons of a Robert Kilgore who was listed on 1750 tax list Granville Co > NC. Both he and William Kilgore were listed near each other on 1751 tax > list. Note: the name Thomas Kilgore does not appear on records so far > found in NC until 1764. The 1751 tax list appears to be fairly complete. > The 1755 tax list that Robert Kilgore appears on is believed to be a > fragment of the original list. He's listed as Robert Kilgore and two > sons -3.0 in 1755. It's my understanding that this means he had two sons > in his household who were 16-21 years old. If Charles Kilgore were his > son-he'd have been about 15 and shouldn't be either of the 2 males. I > strongly believe that Robert Kilgore his presumed brother was born before > Charles (evidence seems to support this) making him born before 1740 and > he could very well be one of the males 16-21 years old. I believe that > the other male was probably a Thomas Kilgore-! > probably the one who died in 1822 Robertson Co TN (whom I don't believe > was 110 years old-yes, I know, he was listed in newspapers in TN as being > 110 years at the time of his death and published in 1822 and his > grandchildren believed he was 110 but this was a time of no record keeping > and it's known that the Thomas Kilgore of 1822 was illiterate. I think > that he somehow came to believe that he was much older than he was and > that became a belief so strong that it was passed down as such and was > printed as such at the time). The available evidence just doesn't support > these believed facts about him. For instance, his supposed wife, Lydia > was listed as head of household in Orange Co NC in 1786 -this means she > was a widow-it doesn't mean that her husband was off in TN -if he was > living-he was still the landowner and still head of household whether he > was under their roof or in Timbukto he would still have been listed in > census records as the head of household. For instance,! > why isn't Thomas listed on the early tax records? This is never expl > ained by Thomas Kilgore's chief biographer, Evelyn Yates Carpenter. There > are other questions not raised by his biographer that don't add up; > however, I can't figure them out. I keep coming to the conclusion that > we're somehow missing something or more likely that there was more than > one Thomas Kilgore (which I believe and that there has been some confusing > of facts and people by us later researchers.) A male age 16-21 in 1755 > would have been born c1734-1739. The first time Thomas Kilgore appears in > records in NC is 1764 -if he was a male 16-21 in 1755 he'd have been no > older than 30 in 1764-about right to be listed on a road jury and > obtaining land by 1766 and to have a child born c1759. If he was in fact > born 1712-1715, he should have been getting land at about the same time as > Robert Kilgore and appearing on earlier tax records-but he wasn't. If he > was born c1712 he was 49 years old when Thomas was born-doesn't mean he > didn't marry very late and start a family quit! > e late but??? > > > > Vickie > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ramble on Vickie, I love all these stories. The story I read was "kill and gone" was Kilgore in gailec(Irish). Can anyone conform the translation? See if you can find The first Kilgore in Ireland? The Black Douglas was not necessarily a person but a linage. There were also the Red Douglas's James the 9th earl of Douglas was supposedly the last Black Douglas. The next Earl was a red Douglas It gets so confusing. The 5 great-grandsons of Lord Douglas Kilgore (1650-1720) of Scotland fought in the Rev. War. Hiram was killed in the war. Cousin Bob Charles R. (Bob) Shaw 2425 Sherwin Dr. Twinsburg Ohio 44087 fax 330 963 6858 cell 330 247 8543 phone 330 425 8819 [email protected] [email protected] www.engineeredspecialproducts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vickie Miller" <[email protected]> To: "Kilgore" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 11:26 AM Subject: [KILGORE] Kilgore-Douglas > Recently the Douglas question has been raised again regarding the Kilgore > family. To refresh the memories of those who may not be acquainted with > this question, early Kilgore researchers made the assertion published in > 1935 in the book "Charles Kilgore of King's Mountain" by Hugh Addington > that the Kilgores were descended from Lord Douglas of Scotland-the > so-called "Black Douglas" which meant that the Kilgore name had originally > been Douglas. If you look up the name in the Scottish registry of names > you'll find this info: The earliest written record of the Kilgore name is > this entry: John Kilgour's wife, Janet December 14, 1690, had a child > baptized named Mar---Witnesses: Tom Pierce, George Tasker & etal From > (Baptisms of November-December 1690 for the earliest Coupar Angus Parish > Register. Reproduced by courtesy of the Church of Scotland) also > included in the book Thomas Kilgore 1712-1822 and his Descendants" by > Evelyn Yates Carpenter. The enrtry also states that th! > e first known use of the name Kilgore was in connection to a child found > on a doorstep of a church and given the NAME of the Church and that local > tradition claimed that the child was a junior member of the local powerful > Douglas family who'd been recently outlawed and that the child (presumedly > male) was left behind to protect it as 'such things were known to happen.' > NOTE: the Historical society makes no claim as to the validity of local > tradition-merely includes it in their info. > This is the same information that Judge G. W. Kilgore received when he > also wrote the Scottish Historical Society inquiring about the origin of > the Kilgore name. Since there might have been validity to the local > tradition, Jerry Penley (who is now sadly deceased and who was the founder > of the Kilgore list on Rootsweb) made a point of pursuing this matter. > Jerry Penley was an outstanding and thorough researcher as any of those > who ever had the privelege of working with him can attest. He made > contact with Douglas researchers whose research he found to be sound. The > response was that all members of the Douglas family were accounted for and > their lines can be traced which means that our little foundling was NOT a > legitimate member of the Douglas family and also explains why our new > member Bob Shaw has been unable to make a connection to the Douglas > family-it doesn't exist. It's entirely possible that the child was born > out of wedlock to a member of the Douglas family and ! > left on the doorstep; but he was not a legitimate scion of the family. > Jerry's findings can be found by searching the Kilgore list archives > at:http://boards.rootsweb.com/surname.aspx. Type in the name Kilgore and > it should take you to the list. The entries should be found around > 1995-1996. Sorry, I'm not more specific than that-but I'm still on pokey > old dial-up because of our location and am just not inclined to search > through the Archives. If anyone wishes to find them-type in the word > Douglas and sooner or later, Jerry's info he obtained from the Douglas > researchers should be found. As to the assertions by early Kilgore > researchers, it seems they took "local tradition" one step further and > made it fact. Jerry Penley later took that "fact" and made it an unproven > assertion. It should be noted that there is absolutely no proof that the > foundling child was in fact the ancestor of the Kilgores of America. > Note: that the Historical society included only the fir! > st known instance of the name-it doesn't list any possible subsequent > findings of the name (nor did it give a location of the church). > Considering that Kilgore wasn't a preeminent name in Scotland -such as > Stuart, Hamilton etc; it may be that researchers simply didn't look all > that hard into the origin of the name Kilgore. > > While we're on the subject of early assertions made by Kilgore > researchers, we might as well tackle the "Kill" and "Gore" question. > Judge G. W. Kilgore claimed that the name Kilgore was derived from the > habit of the "Black Douglas" to scream the words Kill and Gore at his > enemies in the heat of battle. Note that the historical society claimed > that the child (if indeed he was our ancestor) was given the name of the > church. Note too-that the Black Douglas would almost certainly have been > screaming his war cry in Scottish Gaelic-not the King's English. So I > wouldn't place much faith in this origin story either. > > More to follow in later messages. Apparently I rambled too much and > there's a size limit these days-so I'm breaking my rambling up. > > Vickie > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected].com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ok all, You all peaked my interest. So I had to open two of my favorite books to see if there was an answer. The Surnames of Ireland by Edward MacLysaght says; (Mac) Kilgore; the Irish form of the name of this North-west Ulster family is probably Mac Giolla Ghearirr, as Kilgar. Woulfe suggests Mac Giolla Ghairbh (garbh, rough) hence Kilgarraf also, which is conjectural. He gives this conjecturally also for Kilcourse. Since there was a question as to what KIll and Gore would be in the Irish here they are. The Irish-English Dictionary by Geddes and Gosset; Kill; maraigh Gore; saigh These definitions do not add a lot of credence to Kill and Gore being the battle cry and name. Not a lot of help but the name does seem to be of Scottish derivation as are a lot of Ulster names. The hard "G" in the Irish has a "K" sound. I would love to see if anyone else has a dictionary that would give a different definition, or a Scottish dictionary of surnames of language. Ron Myatt > From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]; [email protected]> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:06:59 -0400> Subject: Re: [KILGORE] Kilgore-Douglas> > Ramble on Vickie, I love all these stories.> The story I read was "kill and gone" was Kilgore in gailec(Irish). Can > anyone conform the translation?> See if you can find The first Kilgore in Ireland?> The Black Douglas was not necessarily a person but a linage. There were > also the Red Douglas's> James the 9th earl of Douglas was supposedly the last Black Douglas. The > next Earl was a red Douglas> It gets so confusing.> The 5 great-grandsons of Lord Douglas Kilgore (1650-1720) of Scotland fought > in the Rev. War.> Hiram was killed in the war.> Cousin Bob> > Charles R. (Bob) Shaw> 2425 Sherwin Dr.> Twinsburg Ohio 44087> fax 330 963 6858> cell 330 247 8543> phone 330 425 8819> [email protected]> [email protected]> www.engineeredspecialproducts.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vickie Miller" <[email protected]>> To: "Kilgore" <[email protected]>> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 11:26 AM> Subject: [KILGORE] Kilgore-Douglas> > > > Recently the Douglas question has been raised again regarding the Kilgore > > family. To refresh the memories of those who may not be acquainted with > > this question, early Kilgore researchers made the assertion published in > > 1935 in the book "Charles Kilgore of King's Mountain" by Hugh Addington > > that the Kilgores were descended from Lord Douglas of Scotland-the > > so-called "Black Douglas" which meant that the Kilgore name had originally > > been Douglas. If you look up the name in the Scottish registry of names > > you'll find this info: The earliest written record of the Kilgore name is > > this entry: John Kilgour's wife, Janet December 14, 1690, had a child > > baptized named Mar---Witnesses: Tom Pierce, George Tasker & etal From > > (Baptisms of November-December 1690 for the earliest Coupar Angus Parish > > Register. Reproduced by courtesy of the Church of Scotland) also > > included in the book Thomas Kilgore 1712-1822 and his Descendants" by > > Evelyn Yates Carpenter. The enrtry also states that th!> > e first known use of the name Kilgore was in connection to a child found > > on a doorstep of a church and given the NAME of the Church and that local > > tradition claimed that the child was a junior member of the local powerful > > Douglas family who'd been recently outlawed and that the child (presumedly > > male) was left behind to protect it as 'such things were known to happen.' > > NOTE: the Historical society makes no claim as to the validity of local > > tradition-merely includes it in their info.> > This is the same information that Judge G. W. Kilgore received when he > > also wrote the Scottish Historical Society inquiring about the origin of > > the Kilgore name. Since there might have been validity to the local > > tradition, Jerry Penley (who is now sadly deceased and who was the founder > > of the Kilgore list on Rootsweb) made a point of pursuing this matter. > > Jerry Penley was an outstanding and thorough researcher as any of those > > who ever had the privelege of working with him can attest. He made > > contact with Douglas researchers whose research he found to be sound. The > > response was that all members of the Douglas family were accounted for and > > their lines can be traced which means that our little foundling was NOT a > > legitimate member of the Douglas family and also explains why our new > > member Bob Shaw has been unable to make a connection to the Douglas > > family-it doesn't exist. It's entirely possible that the child was born > > out of wedlock to a member of the Douglas family and !> > left on the doorstep; but he was not a legitimate scion of the family. > > Jerry's findings can be found by searching the Kilgore list archives > > at:http://boards.rootsweb.com/surname.aspx. Type in the name Kilgore and > > it should take you to the list. The entries should be found around > > 1995-1996. Sorry, I'm not more specific than that-but I'm still on pokey > > old dial-up because of our location and am just not inclined to search > > through the Archives. If anyone wishes to find them-type in the word > > Douglas and sooner or later, Jerry's info he obtained from the Douglas > > researchers should be found. As to the assertions by early Kilgore > > researchers, it seems they took "local tradition" one step further and > > made it fact. Jerry Penley later took that "fact" and made it an unproven > > assertion. It should be noted that there is absolutely no proof that the > > foundling child was in fact the ancestor of the Kilgores of America. > > Note: that the Historical society included only the fir!> > st known instance of the name-it doesn't list any possible subsequent> > findings of the name (nor did it give a location of the church). > > Considering that Kilgore wasn't a preeminent name in Scotland -such as > > Stuart, Hamilton etc; it may be that researchers simply didn't look all > > that hard into the origin of the name Kilgore.> >> > While we're on the subject of early assertions made by Kilgore > > researchers, we might as well tackle the "Kill" and "Gore" question. > > Judge G. W. Kilgore claimed that the name Kilgore was derived from the > > habit of the "Black Douglas" to scream the words Kill and Gore at his > > enemies in the heat of battle. Note that the historical society claimed > > that the child (if indeed he was our ancestor) was given the name of the > > church. Note too-that the Black Douglas would almost certainly have been > > screaming his war cry in Scottish Gaelic-not the King's English. So I > > wouldn't place much faith in this origin story either.> >> > More to follow in later messages. Apparently I rambled too much and > > there's a size limit these days-so I'm breaking my rambling up.> >> > Vickie> >> > -------------------------------> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message> > > > > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There were Black Douglas's and Red Douglas's I think it was because of their coloring of skin and hair. There were many Kilgore's Your 3 brothers were not the same as my 5 brothers that fought at Kings Mountain. Charles R. (Bob) Shaw 2425 Sherwin Dr. Twinsburg Ohio 44087 fax 330 963 6858 cell 330 247 8543 phone 330 425 8819 [email protected] [email protected] www.engineeredspecialproducts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vickie Miller" <[email protected]> To: "Kilgore" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: [KILGORE] Mangled history >I wanted to demonstrate how mangled stories can become. Some of the Marion >Co TN branch of Kilgores who descend from Robert & Winnie believe that the >name change from Douglas to Kilgore occurred after the Kilgore's came to >America-that their ancestors were great Indian fighters who came to have >the name Kilgore because they screamed "Kill" and "Gore" at the Indians >they were fighting. > Another branch has this story: Beth Pryor Harper: "My cousin who is a > daughter of my great uncle on the Kilgore side repeated the log cabin > story for me again. She is a very dertermined person with a memory like > an elephant and I never disagree with her. Now I am backing up on the > whole thing. Here is her story."Three brothers, I believe it was came > over from Ireland together. They had killed a man in self defense but > because of the turmoil in Ireland at that time they escapted and came to > America and changed their name from Douglas to Kilgore. They came from > North Carolina to Tennessee and my great-great grandfather built a solid > walnut house in the Sequatchie Valley near Victoria. In some way a many > got killed on the stairsteps (and my husband remembers seeing the blood > stain they could not remove). and after the killing he sold out and came > to Georgia, and my husband's grandfather bought the house" That is her > story. She is also telling me something about the ! > "Black Douglases: in Ireland, as if they might have been a gang. This > cousin's husband's family later owned the house. She said her father told > her the story may times. This is an old email I printed sent to the > Kilgore list -vjm > > Vickie > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Bob and others, Please remember that back when Addington wrote his book, documentation was not as readily available as it is today. This book has been picked apart by this group searching the Kilgore name and have proven the information invalid. This is what Vicky is trying to say. This is also why the wrong information keeps getting printed as valid solid documentation when, in fact, it is wrong. Not to start an argument but to try and settle the truth, Bob what do you have as solid in hand documentation of what you have found rather than what some other researcher has said? Heck, I can say that my husband's line of Kilgore's were first cousins of Mary Queen of Scots but saying it and proving it is totally two different things. I can also say, any new shred of information found on any of the lines finds it way to this list, so this group of researchers can almost call their work the "Gospel". Gail

I wanted to demonstrate how mangled stories can become. Some of the Marion Co TN branch of Kilgores who descend from Robert & Winnie believe that the name change from Douglas to Kilgore occurred after the Kilgore's came to America-that their ancestors were great Indian fighters who came to have the name Kilgore because they screamed "Kill" and "Gore" at the Indians they were fighting. Another branch has this story: Beth Pryor Harper: "My cousin who is a daughter of my great uncle on the Kilgore side repeated the log cabin story for me again. She is a very dertermined person with a memory like an elephant and I never disagree with her. Now I am backing up on the whole thing. Here is her story."Three brothers, I believe it was came over from Ireland together. They had killed a man in self defense but because of the turmoil in Ireland at that time they escapted and came to America and changed their name from Douglas to Kilgore. They came from North Carolina to Tennessee and my great-great grandfather built a solid walnut house in the Sequatchie Valley near Victoria. In some way a many got killed on the stairsteps (and my husband remembers seeing the blood stain they could not remove). and after the killing he sold out and came to Georgia, and my husband's grandfather bought the house" That is her story. She is also telling me something about the "Black Douglases: in Ireland, as if they might have been a gang. This cousin's husband's family later owned the house. She said her father told her the story may times. This is an old email I printed sent to the Kilgore list -vjm Vickie

Note that this record states that Gabriel's father, Thomas Kilgore whose birth date is given as ca1759 had 3 brothers one of whom was shot through at the battle of King's Mountain-would seem to be referring to Robert Kilgore. In Goodspeed's History of Arkansas-Columbia County. D. L. Kilgore (Dawson Lea Kilgore s/o Gabriel Lea Kilgore) was included in their biography section: **D. L. Killgore physician, represented Columbia Co in General Assembly of AR b Robertson Co TN 1823, second child of Gabriel & Matilda (Moore) Killgore natives of NC. Gabriel moved to TN where he m 1819. A planter and slave owner and a resident of AR after 1850 until his death at 78, representative of Union Co in State Legislature, but in 1860, until his death in 1872, a resident of Columbia Co. Gabriel's father was Thomas Killgore Revolutionary Soldier, in Battle of King's Mountain where his brother was killed by his side. Gabriel's wife Matilda's father was Rev. William Moore of the Old School Presbyterian Church. Matilda d 1876 at 82 years. D. L. Killgore attended school TN, and at 21 years began study of medicine at Holly Springs MS where his father had moved in 1823, graduated from medical college Memphis, TN 1848-49, settled at Three Creeks, Union Co AR until 1803, (??) moved to Magnolia until after the war, to a farm six miles from Magnolia where he practiced until 1883, after which he lived in Magnolia. Joined Confederate Army in 1861, Captain of Columbia Guards, 6th Ark Reg of Infantry, later Major. In 1862 he resigned and returned home, raising Sec Ark Volunteers, elected Lieut Col was in battles of Farmington and Poison Springs, Mark's Mill and other battles, surrendered his command at Magnolia. After the war to purchase medicine he sold his gold watch in Shreveport La. Political career followed. He m Mary Pearce of Ripley MS 1847. she was d/o Joseph Pearce of Weakley Co TN. Children of D L and Mary: Pearce Killgore physician; Dawson L. Killgore physician d 1866; Albert S. Killgore atty of Magnolia. Pearce Killgore m Miss Bettie Farr of Magnolia. D. L. & Mary were Methodists 1 7/27 Note this entry states that Thomas Kilgore's brother was killed at King's Mountain-would seem to be referring to the Hiram Kilgore listed by Judge G. W. Kilgore. Question: Is this brother who was killed the same as the one who was shot through? Thomas Kilgore born c1759 h/o Phoebe Lea is listed with a brother named Charles Kilgore who married Unice Lea in 1796 Orange Co NC. It is believed that he was one of the two males listed in the 1786 NC state census in the household of Lydia Kilgore age under 16 making him born no earlier than 1770 and meaning he was about 10 when the battle of King's Mountain took place in 1780. These assertions made by Gabriel Lea Kilgore and D. L. Kilgore his son cast doubts on the 5 Kilgore brothers who purportedly came to America c1763. We know that it was Charles Kilgore born 1740 who was at the Battle of Kings Mountain not Charles Kilgore age 10 who later married Unice Lea in 1796 Orange Co NC. It's my opinion that the 5 men named Kilgore listed in the book found by G. W. Kilgore were presumed to be brothers but not proven-indeed evidence seems to refute that. Note too that we always presume that it was Robert Kilgore who married Winnie Clayton who was the Robert Kilgore referred to as one of the 5 Kilgore brothers and was the one who was shot through the body but survived. But, what if we're wrong?? Maybe it was the Bob Kilgore who was listed in 1797: 1797-March 11 Cherokee Country TN:List of names and employments of men residing in Cherokee country: Bob Kilgore "the worst of bad characters" (p329 Tennessee Passports). We know nothing more about him and in fact it's a presumption that Bob was a nickname for Robert-but what if this was in fact that Robert Kilgore who was at King's Mountain? What if this was one of the 3 brothers of Thomas Kilgore born c1759 who participated in the Rev. War and another was Hiram who was killed??? What if the other names, James, William & Charles were just that- names of men named Kilgore who were at the battle but weren't brothers??? It's believed though not proven that Charles & Robert Kilgore were likely the sons of a Robert Kilgore who was listed on 1750 tax list Granville Co NC. Both he and William Kilgore were listed near each other on 1751 tax list. Note: the name Thomas Kilgore does not appear on records so far found in NC until 1764. The 1751 tax list appears to be fairly complete. The 1755 tax list that Robert Kilgore appears on is believed to be a fragment of the original list. He's listed as Robert Kilgore and two sons -3.0 in 1755. It's my understanding that this means he had two sons in his household who were 16-21 years old. If Charles Kilgore were his son-he'd have been about 15 and shouldn't be either of the 2 males. I strongly believe that Robert Kilgore his presumed brother was born before Charles (evidence seems to support this) making him born before 1740 and he could very well be one of the males 16-21 years old. I believe that the other male was probably a Thomas Kilgore-probably the one who died in 1822 Robertson Co TN (whom I don't believe was 110 years old-yes, I know, he was listed in newspapers in TN as being 110 years at the time of his death and published in 1822 and his grandchildren believed he was 110 but this was a time of no record keeping and it's known that the Thomas Kilgore of 1822 was illiterate. I think that he somehow came to believe that he was much older than he was and that became a belief so strong that it was passed down as such and was printed as such at the time). The available evidence just doesn't support these believed facts about him. For instance, his supposed wife, Lydia was listed as head of household in Orange Co NC in 1786 -this means she was a widow-it doesn't mean that her husband was off in TN -if he was living-he was still the landowner and still head of household whether he was under their roof or in Timbukto he would still have been listed in census records as the head of household. For instance, why isn't Thomas listed on the early tax records? This is never explained by Thomas Kilgore's chief biographer, Evelyn Yates Carpenter. There are other questions not raised by his biographer that don't add up; however, I can't figure them out. I keep coming to the conclusion that we're somehow missing something or more likely that there was more than one Thomas Kilgore (which I believe and that there has been some confusing of facts and people by us later researchers.) A male age 16-21 in 1755 would have been born c1734-1739. The first time Thomas Kilgore appears in records in NC is 1764 -if he was a male 16-21 in 1755 he'd have been no older than 30 in 1764-about right to be listed on a road jury and obtaining land by 1766 and to have a child born c1759. If he was in fact born 1712-1715, he should have been getting land at about the same time as Robert Kilgore and appearing on earlier tax records-but he wasn't. If he was born c1712 he was 49 years old when Thomas was born-doesn't mean he didn't marry very late and start a family quite late but??? Vickie

The so-called "5 Kilgore Brothers". Judge G. W. Kilgore claimed that he'd found a book in another Judge's library that purportedly listed a roster of men who took part in the Battle of King's Mountain. He neither gave the name of the book or it's author-nor did he say what reference the author used for his information. No complete roster of men who were at the Battle of King's Mountain is known to survive today. That information was lost when the British burned the War Office during the War of 1812. The only lists that we have today are those compiled by researchers based on their search of pension records, bounty warrants and so on. From the information given in the book that Judge G. W. Kilgore found, it would appear that it had access to some kind of source because it give specific details such as: Robert Kilgore was shot through the body but survived, Charles Kilgore was also wounded but also survived, Hiram Kilgore was killed at the battle and the other two "brothers" James & William apparently survived unscathed. Note that we don't know whether the men listed in the book were in fact listed as brothers in the book or whether that was an assumption made by either Judge G. W. Kilgore or perhaps even by the author of the book. What we do know is that no proof of the 5 brothers has yet been independently found and confirmed. The five men were Robert, Charles, Hiram, William and James. It's believed by descendants of Robert & Charles that they were brothers; however, there is no documentary proof to that belief. There is strong circumstantial "proof" that they were brothers but it remains unproved and circumstantial. We know that Robert & Charles Kilgore were living in Orange Co NC in the 1760's and as late as 1770. By 1773, both men had moved to within a mile of each other in what became Russell Co VA. A William Kilgore was found in Orange Co NC records as early as 1751 and as late as 1754 when he disappeared from the records there. Coincidentally a William Kilgore turns up in the Augusta District of Georgia in 1755 making a claim for land. It's generally believed, thought not proven, that it was the same man in both places. Descendants list his birth date as circa 1726, making him 14 years older than Charles Kilgore who was born in 1740 according to his son's Bible records-not 1744 as some have claimed. A Ralph Kilgore also turns up in Augusta District Georgia in 1755 claiming land as well. It's generally believed that William & Ralph were brothers but again as far as I know, no documentary proof has been found to prove it. Ralph was listed as having a wife and one child -he later had at least 5 more children -meaning he was fairly young with a growing family when he made his claim-I've seen no birth date for him but we can presume he was at least 21 in 1755 making him born no later than 1734 and no doubt earlier than that. William Kilgore was listed with a wife and 3 children in 1755 (he later had at least 4 more children). This makes him about 29 years old in 1755. The name Hiram Kilgore does not appear in any primary source earlier than the Rev. War that I've seen. He doesn't appear in records in NC or VA (note that Orange Co NC records were not complete-many were missing for the time that these Kilgores were residents there-marriage records, will records, court & tax records are largely lost-land records were more complete and many seem to have survived) There was a James Kilgore who was living in I believe Darlington Co SC prior to the Rev. War. It's known that he had a brother named Henry who was also a soldier in the Rev. War. This Henry was listed as a private in 1782 in Marion's brigade. It's my understanding that this James' parentage hasn't been found-however, there's no proof he was connected the Kilgore's of Orange Co NC. A James Kilgoar was listed on 1755 tax list in Currituck Co NC but no connection has been made to him and it's not known if he and James of Darlington Co were the same. I've seen speculation that James of Currituck was connected to Thomas Kilgore & Rebecca Lasley of early Chester Co MD. Now, having said all of that, it should be noted that in 1853 Gabriel Lea Kilgore born c1794 s/o Thomas Kilgore & Phoebe Lea married 1786 Orange Co NC s/o Thomas Kilgore died 1822 Robertson Co TN replied to a letter from a David Kilgore as to his background. This letter was published in the Thompson Journals and reads: 1858-March 5 Columbia Co AR:Three Creeks Ark: Hon David Kilgore, Dear Sir: recd a note from Hon. E. A. Warrne from yourself to him making inquiries for the purpose of ascertaining whether we were of the same family. I know that my great grandfather came from Ireland about 200 years ago with four sons and settled in Penna or Maryland. The names of his sons were Ralph, William, Charles and Thomas. The last name was my grandfather who settled in an early day in North Carolina, from whence he, in company with my father, then quite a youth, removed to Tennessee, immediately after the Revolutionary War. Tennessee was then an unbroken wilderness and they were forced to build and live in a fort as a protection aginst the Indians. This fort was called Killgore's Station and was situated near where Nashville now stands. My grandfather died since my recollection at the advance age of 110 years. My fathers name was also Thomas.My father had three brothers, all of whom were actively engaged in the Revolutionary War and one of them was shot through at the battle of Kings Mountain. If you are a relative to us, you will have no cause to blush on account of those four then young men as they all fought and shed their blood freely in battling for the liberty we now enjoy. We have relations in Indiana and Kentucky. I remember having seen at my father's house in Tennessee, many years ago, four men of our name whose given names were John, Huey, David and Charles. I have heard my father speak of an Obed Kilgore who was a relation. Where he lived I do not know. The name James was a common one in our family. I recollect hearing my grandfather say that all of the names were related, which must necessarily be true according to the legend. I think sir, we have the right to be proud of the name as I have never yet seen it associated with crime or infamy. So may it ver be. I enclose you a short obituary notice of my father who recently died at the age of 94 years, I close sir! With the request that you will let me know the history of your immediate family which I will take as a great favor. Respectfully yours, etc. G. L. Kilgore -Thompson Journals V.20 p150-152 (re:Lee Bartos internet contact). Part 3 on the way

Recently the Douglas question has been raised again regarding the Kilgore family. To refresh the memories of those who may not be acquainted with this question, early Kilgore researchers made the assertion published in 1935 in the book "Charles Kilgore of King's Mountain" by Hugh Addington that the Kilgores were descended from Lord Douglas of Scotland-the so-called "Black Douglas" which meant that the Kilgore name had originally been Douglas. If you look up the name in the Scottish registry of names you'll find this info: The earliest written record of the Kilgore name is this entry: John Kilgour's wife, Janet December 14, 1690, had a child baptized named Mar---Witnesses: Tom Pierce, George Tasker & etal From (Baptisms of November-December 1690 for the earliest Coupar Angus Parish Register. Reproduced by courtesy of the Church of Scotland) also included in the book Thomas Kilgore 1712-1822 and his Descendants" by Evelyn Yates Carpenter. The enrtry also states that the first known use of the name Kilgore was in connection to a child found on a doorstep of a church and given the NAME of the Church and that local tradition claimed that the child was a junior member of the local powerful Douglas family who'd been recently outlawed and that the child (presumedly male) was left behind to protect it as 'such things were known to happen.' NOTE: the Historical society makes no claim as to the validity of local tradition-merely includes it in their info. This is the same information that Judge G. W. Kilgore received when he also wrote the Scottish Historical Society inquiring about the origin of the Kilgore name. Since there might have been validity to the local tradition, Jerry Penley (who is now sadly deceased and who was the founder of the Kilgore list on Rootsweb) made a point of pursuing this matter. Jerry Penley was an outstanding and thorough researcher as any of those who ever had the privelege of working with him can attest. He made contact with Douglas researchers whose research he found to be sound. The response was that all members of the Douglas family were accounted for and their lines can be traced which means that our little foundling was NOT a legitimate member of the Douglas family and also explains why our new member Bob Shaw has been unable to make a connection to the Douglas family-it doesn't exist. It's entirely possible that the child was born out of wedlock to a member of the Douglas family and left on the doorstep; but he was not a legitimate scion of the family. Jerry's findings can be found by searching the Kilgore list archives at:http://boards.rootsweb.com/surname.aspx. Type in the name Kilgore and it should take you to the list. The entries should be found around 1995-1996. Sorry, I'm not more specific than that-but I'm still on pokey old dial-up because of our location and am just not inclined to search through the Archives. If anyone wishes to find them-type in the word Douglas and sooner or later, Jerry's info he obtained from the Douglas researchers should be found. As to the assertions by early Kilgore researchers, it seems they took "local tradition" one step further and made it fact. Jerry Penley later took that "fact" and made it an unproven assertion. It should be noted that there is absolutely no proof that the foundling child was in fact the ancestor of the Kilgores of America. Note: that the Historical society included only the first known instance of the name-it doesn't list any possible subsequent findings of the name (nor did it give a location of the church). Considering that Kilgore wasn't a preeminent name in Scotland -such as Stuart, Hamilton etc; it may be that researchers simply didn't look all that hard into the origin of the name Kilgore. While we're on the subject of early assertions made by Kilgore researchers, we might as well tackle the "Kill" and "Gore" question. Judge G. W. Kilgore claimed that the name Kilgore was derived from the habit of the "Black Douglas" to scream the words Kill and Gore at his enemies in the heat of battle. Note that the historical society claimed that the child (if indeed he was our ancestor) was given the name of the church. Note too-that the Black Douglas would almost certainly have been screaming his war cry in Scottish Gaelic-not the King's English. So I wouldn't place much faith in this origin story either. More to follow in later messages. Apparently I rambled too much and there's a size limit these days-so I'm breaking my rambling up. Vickie

Cousin Dennie, I truly enjoyed your 'Kilgore Indians' piece, thank you for sharing. Hope you are feeling well, you sound GREAT!!! Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: "D Rennow" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [KILGORE] Kilgore Indians > That toe is supposed to be from Longshanks, Edward I or some king. You > can tell that I don't remember exactly which one. > My not so nice ex mother in law had that trait. > Cousin Dennie > > Bob Shaw wrote: >> Cousin Dennie >> Quite a tail (of tears). >> My wife is part Indian but not those tribes. One of her ancestors was >> abducted by the Shawnee and escaped but was pregnant. Nancy Alleys >> sister. >> Nancy, my wife, is descended from Robert and Winifred too. >> Now I have either Scot or German feet. The 2nd toe is significantly >> longer >> than the big tow. Must make it better from hanging from trees? >> >> I know how you feel. I walked into a log cabin in Sutton West Virginia >> and >> expected to be shot. Till someone said " I don't know who he is but he >> is a >> Shaw". >> >> I am still trying to go back further on the Kilgore line and come forward >> with the Douglas line till they meet. >> >> Ain't we having fun? >> >> Charles R. (Bob) Shaw >> 2425 Sherwin Dr. >> Twinsburg Ohio 44087 >> fax 330 963 6858 >> cell 330 247 8543 >> phone 330 425 8819 >> [email protected] >> [email protected] >> www.engineeredspecialproducts.com >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "D Rennow" <[email protected]> >> To: "Kilgore" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 2:31 PM >> Subject: [KILGORE] Kilgore Indians >> >> >> >>> I was just reading some of the posts I missed while sick. >>> In one there was a question about a Cherokee connection. >>> Let me tell you what I know on that. >>> >>> A physician/anthropologist told me many years ago that I was mostly >>> Indian, specifically Choctaw and Cherokee. He could tell by specific >>> physical traits, such as: bone structure, muscle attachments, muscle >>> mass, sprung ribs, high red blood cell count, high pain threshold, etc. >>> I laughed because at that time I thought I was only a tiny bit Indian. >>> Silly me. I have since discovered that there were Indians on my mother >>> and my father's family. >>> >>> Interestingly I discovered I have Indian feet. Nike makes a special >>> running shoe for Indians but I can't get them, because I am not a >>> government Indian. Yep, Nike practically gives them to Indians on >>> reservations but won't sell them to those of us who do not. That >>> sucks. What are Indian feet? You can see a picture of my feet on my >>> blog (email me for address). But basically the traits are a very wide >>> foot, narrow heal and high instep. Getting shoes that fit are extremely >>> difficult. >>> >>> Moving on... >>> >>> The Kilgores I am familiar with were descendants of Robert Kilgore (abt >>> 1740 NC) and Winifred Clayton (abt 1740 NC) who settled on the South >>> Cumberland plateau of Tennessee. Many of them married Indians, most of >>> which moved into the area with Dragging Canoe. Google him for details. >>> Basically he was a pissed off chief that moved with 1000 braves and >>> their families from VA/NC to TN in the late 1700s. They went to the >>> Chattanooga TN area and eventually into Marion and Grundy Co TN. Some >>> left during the removal (Trail of Tears) but many refused to go. During >>> and after the removal, some moved into NE Alabama. >>> >>> Remember that during the removal, if you could pass as black or white, >>> you could stay and keep your property. If you were obviously Indian >>> then they took your property and imprisoned you. If part of the family >>> was Indian then those individuals were removed. >>> >>> The federal troops, sent to Monteagle TN to remove the Indians (yep >>> Kilgore ones), disappeared. Hummmm. The feds are still holding a >>> grudge over that. :-) Dragging Canoe nor the Chikamaka have ever >>> signed a treaty. >>> >>> I went to a meeting of the Chikamaka Cherokee. I can't tell you how >>> weird it was to walk into a room full of strangers that looked like >>> me. One guy said, "I knew you were family the minute you walked in the >>> door." It was pretty obvious to me too. >>> >>> I am still collecting Kilgore related Cherokee applications from the >>> early 1900s. I will include them in my Kilgore project data. >>> Most of them were denied. That was just the federal procedure. Get an >>> application. Deny it. They did not want the official Indian population >>> to increase. They continue to have the same attitude. >>> >>> Did you know that the state of Tennessee doesn't recognize any Tennessee >>> tribes? No kidding. It is just crazy and I suspect related to >>> potential casino control. But I digress... >>> >>> Cousin Dennie >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: superchief871 Surnames: kilgore Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.kilgore/477.485.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi Cousin Ronnie, I tried to email you a part of my wife's Kilgore tree but don't think it was transmitted. She is descended frjom the "5 brothers" that fought in our Revolutionary War. please email me at [email protected] Bob Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: superchief871 Surnames: kilgore Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.kilgore/477.485.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi Cousin Ronnie, I tried to email you a part of my wife's Kilgore tree but don't think it was transmitted. She is descended frjom the "5 brothers" that fought in our Revolutionary War. please email me at [email protected] Bob Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: ronkilgore3 Surnames: kilgore Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.kilgore/477.485/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi. My name is Ronnie Kilgore and I live in Northern Ireland (City of Londonderry). I am researching the Kilgore family at the moment here in N.I. I don't know if any of my ancestors settled in America or Canada so maybe this information is useless to you. Christian names that keep cropping up in my line of the Kilgores are, William, Samuel, Robert, James, John, Isabella, Mary etc. Don't know if this is of any value to you. Regards Ronnie Kilgore Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

That toe is supposed to be from Longshanks, Edward I or some king. You can tell that I don't remember exactly which one. My not so nice ex mother in law had that trait. Cousin Dennie Bob Shaw wrote: > Cousin Dennie > Quite a tail (of tears). > My wife is part Indian but not those tribes. One of her ancestors was > abducted by the Shawnee and escaped but was pregnant. Nancy Alleys sister. > Nancy, my wife, is descended from Robert and Winifred too. > Now I have either Scot or German feet. The 2nd toe is significantly longer > than the big tow. Must make it better from hanging from trees? > > I know how you feel. I walked into a log cabin in Sutton West Virginia and > expected to be shot. Till someone said " I don't know who he is but he is a > Shaw". > > I am still trying to go back further on the Kilgore line and come forward > with the Douglas line till they meet. > > Ain't we having fun? > > Charles R. (Bob) Shaw > 2425 Sherwin Dr. > Twinsburg Ohio 44087 > fax 330 963 6858 > cell 330 247 8543 > phone 330 425 8819 > [email protected] > [email protected] > www.engineeredspecialproducts.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "D Rennow" <[email protected]> > To: "Kilgore" <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 2:31 PM > Subject: [KILGORE] Kilgore Indians > > > >> I was just reading some of the posts I missed while sick. >> In one there was a question about a Cherokee connection. >> Let me tell you what I know on that. >> >> A physician/anthropologist told me many years ago that I was mostly >> Indian, specifically Choctaw and Cherokee. He could tell by specific >> physical traits, such as: bone structure, muscle attachments, muscle >> mass, sprung ribs, high red blood cell count, high pain threshold, etc. >> I laughed because at that time I thought I was only a tiny bit Indian. >> Silly me. I have since discovered that there were Indians on my mother >> and my father's family. >> >> Interestingly I discovered I have Indian feet. Nike makes a special >> running shoe for Indians but I can't get them, because I am not a >> government Indian. Yep, Nike practically gives them to Indians on >> reservations but won't sell them to those of us who do not. That >> sucks. What are Indian feet? You can see a picture of my feet on my >> blog (email me for address). But basically the traits are a very wide >> foot, narrow heal and high instep. Getting shoes that fit are extremely >> difficult. >> >> Moving on... >> >> The Kilgores I am familiar with were descendants of Robert Kilgore (abt >> 1740 NC) and Winifred Clayton (abt 1740 NC) who settled on the South >> Cumberland plateau of Tennessee. Many of them married Indians, most of >> which moved into the area with Dragging Canoe. Google him for details. >> Basically he was a pissed off chief that moved with 1000 braves and >> their families from VA/NC to TN in the late 1700s. They went to the >> Chattanooga TN area and eventually into Marion and Grundy Co TN. Some >> left during the removal (Trail of Tears) but many refused to go. During >> and after the removal, some moved into NE Alabama. >> >> Remember that during the removal, if you could pass as black or white, >> you could stay and keep your property. If you were obviously Indian >> then they took your property and imprisoned you. If part of the family >> was Indian then those individuals were removed. >> >> The federal troops, sent to Monteagle TN to remove the Indians (yep >> Kilgore ones), disappeared. Hummmm. The feds are still holding a >> grudge over that. :-) Dragging Canoe nor the Chikamaka have ever >> signed a treaty. >> >> I went to a meeting of the Chikamaka Cherokee. I can't tell you how >> weird it was to walk into a room full of strangers that looked like >> me. One guy said, "I knew you were family the minute you walked in the >> door." It was pretty obvious to me too. >> >> I am still collecting Kilgore related Cherokee applications from the >> early 1900s. I will include them in my Kilgore project data. >> Most of them were denied. That was just the federal procedure. Get an >> application. Deny it. They did not want the official Indian population >> to increase. They continue to have the same attitude. >> >> Did you know that the state of Tennessee doesn't recognize any Tennessee >> tribes? No kidding. It is just crazy and I suspect related to >> potential casino control. But I digress... >> >> Cousin Dennie >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Cousin Dennie Quite a tail (of tears). My wife is part Indian but not those tribes. One of her ancestors was abducted by the Shawnee and escaped but was pregnant. Nancy Alleys sister. Nancy, my wife, is descended from Robert and Winifred too. Now I have either Scot or German feet. The 2nd toe is significantly longer than the big tow. Must make it better from hanging from trees? I know how you feel. I walked into a log cabin in Sutton West Virginia and expected to be shot. Till someone said " I don't know who he is but he is a Shaw". I am still trying to go back further on the Kilgore line and come forward with the Douglas line till they meet. Ain't we having fun? Charles R. (Bob) Shaw 2425 Sherwin Dr. Twinsburg Ohio 44087 fax 330 963 6858 cell 330 247 8543 phone 330 425 8819 [email protected] [email protected] www.engineeredspecialproducts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "D Rennow" <[email protected]> To: "Kilgore" <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 2:31 PM Subject: [KILGORE] Kilgore Indians >I was just reading some of the posts I missed while sick. > In one there was a question about a Cherokee connection. > Let me tell you what I know on that. > > A physician/anthropologist told me many years ago that I was mostly > Indian, specifically Choctaw and Cherokee. He could tell by specific > physical traits, such as: bone structure, muscle attachments, muscle > mass, sprung ribs, high red blood cell count, high pain threshold, etc. > I laughed because at that time I thought I was only a tiny bit Indian. > Silly me. I have since discovered that there were Indians on my mother > and my father's family. > > Interestingly I discovered I have Indian feet. Nike makes a special > running shoe for Indians but I can't get them, because I am not a > government Indian. Yep, Nike practically gives them to Indians on > reservations but won't sell them to those of us who do not. That > sucks. What are Indian feet? You can see a picture of my feet on my > blog (email me for address). But basically the traits are a very wide > foot, narrow heal and high instep. Getting shoes that fit are extremely > difficult. > > Moving on... > > The Kilgores I am familiar with were descendants of Robert Kilgore (abt > 1740 NC) and Winifred Clayton (abt 1740 NC) who settled on the South > Cumberland plateau of Tennessee. Many of them married Indians, most of > which moved into the area with Dragging Canoe. Google him for details. > Basically he was a pissed off chief that moved with 1000 braves and > their families from VA/NC to TN in the late 1700s. They went to the > Chattanooga TN area and eventually into Marion and Grundy Co TN. Some > left during the removal (Trail of Tears) but many refused to go. During > and after the removal, some moved into NE Alabama. > > Remember that during the removal, if you could pass as black or white, > you could stay and keep your property. If you were obviously Indian > then they took your property and imprisoned you. If part of the family > was Indian then those individuals were removed. > > The federal troops, sent to Monteagle TN to remove the Indians (yep > Kilgore ones), disappeared. Hummmm. The feds are still holding a > grudge over that. :-) Dragging Canoe nor the Chikamaka have ever > signed a treaty. > > I went to a meeting of the Chikamaka Cherokee. I can't tell you how > weird it was to walk into a room full of strangers that looked like > me. One guy said, "I knew you were family the minute you walked in the > door." It was pretty obvious to me too. > > I am still collecting Kilgore related Cherokee applications from the > early 1900s. I will include them in my Kilgore project data. > Most of them were denied. That was just the federal procedure. Get an > application. Deny it. They did not want the official Indian population > to increase. They continue to have the same attitude. > > Did you know that the state of Tennessee doesn't recognize any Tennessee > tribes? No kidding. It is just crazy and I suspect related to > potential casino control. But I digress... > > Cousin Dennie > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >