On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 20:22:32 -0500 "Terry Taylor" <trees.taylor@sympatico.ca> wrote: Hello Terry, > The certificate probably won't tell you whether she is a twin. My Very true, but muddcity has found the person with a sister in census returns, and seems to have found two indexes in the same quarter, so it's quite likely. Of course, to be sure, both certs are required to check whether parents are the same. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)rad never immediately apparent" It's your life so go your own way Questions And Answers - Sham 69

Yes Peter it is, and when unsure pays to google Denge Marsh + Lydd and see what comes up, and as it happens there a Denge Marsh Road, Lydd. Cheers Pam from Adelaide Australia > Hi All, > I was wondering if someone could translate the relationship to the head of > the household, William Burgess on an 1881 census for Lydd: > RG 11/1016; folio55, page 10 in respect of Oranda Brann. > Is the address: Denge Marsh? > Thanks for any assistance, > Best wishes, > Peter, Melbourne, Australia

Hi All, I was wondering if someone could translate the relationship to the head of the household, William Burgess on an 1881 census for Lydd: RG 11/1016; folio55, page 10 in respect of Oranda Brann. Is the address: Denge Marsh? Thanks for any assistance, Best wishes, Peter, Melbourne, Australia

Hi All, I was wondering if someone could translate an address on an 1881 census for Benenden: RG 11/938; folio76, page 1 in respect of William Austen. Address is ?? Harbour Road, Thanks for any assistance, Best wishes, Peter, Melbourne, Australia

Hi Lynn, This info is from Barbara Dixon's Certificate Tutorials - If there is a time against the date of birth then there was more than one child born alive at the birth. If one was alive and one stillborn, then the live twin will not have a time against the date. It is possible to check for twins by looking for identical or consecutive GRO references in the indexes. If the child lived for only seconds, there should still be a register of the birth and the death, though this was not always done. Cheers Trish Nowra NSW I think the suggestion of hours and minutes as she was a twin > makes sense. She comes up on census with a sister the same age, and they > are > in the indexes, but I won't say for sure she is a twin until I obtain the > certificate, but its likely.

Yep that's what I mean't but you said it so much more succinctly. chuckle Pam > Hopefully this make things clearer. > > In-Law > > In the censuses the term 'in-law' meant 'related by marriage' as it does > today, however the key difference is that in the 19th century it was > applied to children which is not the case now. A son whose mother > re-marries would today be called a 'step-son', however he may be recorded > on the census as 'son-in-law'. > > Brother/Sister > > To add further confusion to the above, often when the term 'in-law' would > have been applicable it was not used. Hence a wife whose true relationship > to the Head should be 'sister-in-law' may only be written as sister, next > to her husband. So watch out for random sisters you've never heard of > before, who suddenly crop up! (It is easy to spot the reverse of this > because the mysterious new brother will carry a different surname!) > > Cheers ..... Bryn (Mt Victoria in the Blue Mountains) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pam hillier" <pamhillier24@virginbroadband.com.au> > To: "KENT-ENG-L rootsweb" <KENT-ENG-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 10:20 AM > Subject: Re: [KENT-ENG] Brother or Sister in Law > > >> Hi Peter, >> In the traditional sense sister in Law (and son in Law etc) is as it is >> today.......but I have had children from the wifes first marriage listed >> in >> census data as son in law to the head of the household.....etc >> So in this case they may be half sister and brother........Might pay to >> check whether one of the parents was married twice, somewhere along the >> line. >> Cheers pam from Adelaide Australia >> >> >> Hi List >> Can someone remind me what the relationship is which would allow a 39 >> year >> old Male to call a 13 year old Female his "Sister in Law"? >> I am puzzled because, as far as I can see, neither the 39 year old nor >> his >> Wife seem to be related to the 13 year old in any way >> >> Thanks >> Peter Jones >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> KENT-ENG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >

Hi Christopher, The Kelly's 1903 Directoy of Kent, has Mrs Susanna ELCOMBE, confectioner, at 168 High Street, Tonbridge; also, ELCOMBE Brothers, Boot & Shoe Makers, 179 High St, Tonbridge. The Kelly's 1913 Directory of Kent, Surrey and Sussex has no ELCOMBE listings. The Kelly's 1914 Directory of Tonbridge Wells, Southborough & Tonbridge, has a listng for Mrs ELCOMBE living at 16 Uridge Road Tonbridge (Noth side, from 64 Shipbourne Road). Maureen Rawson' website has a photograph "166 High Street, Tonbridge" which you may be interested in - http://www.footstepsphotos.co.uk/Kent/kenp20.htm Free BMD has a marriage for Ernest Absalom ELCOMBE to Bertha BROWN, June 1896, Tunbridge 2a 1263. On the 1901 Census, Ernest A. ELCOMBE, aged 30, born Sevenoaks, is a Bootmerchant in Tonbridge; Bertha is 28. Just putting ELCOMBE and Tonbridge in the index gives none of them with the occupation of photographer. I couldn't locate him on the 1911 Census; Bertha ELCOMBE is aged 36, living in Tonbridge. Oh, okay, here he is - FreeBMD has a death for Ernest A. ELCOMBE, aged 43, died March qtr 1910 Marylebone 1a 359. The 1903 Directory had the following photographers in Tonbridge - CARPENTER, William Allen, 1128 Lavender Hill DEAN, Arthur Thomas, Shipbourne Rd FLEMONS, Thomas A, 177 High St PICKETT, George, 88 High St SEYMOUR, William, 21 Danvers Rd Cheers Trish Nowra NSW > I am trying to find out something about E. A. Elcombe, photographers > of 162 High Street, Tonbridge, Kent, who I believe existed around > 1900, but I am not sure of the exact time they were in business. > Does anyone have any knowledge of the business and/or have a trade > directory that they can check for me, please? > Christopher J Page

Hi Peter, In the traditional sense sister in Law (and son in Law etc) is as it is today.......but I have had children from the wifes first marriage listed in census data as son in law to the head of the household.....etc So in this case they may be half sister and brother........Might pay to check whether one of the parents was married twice, somewhere along the line. Cheers pam from Adelaide Australia Hi List Can someone remind me what the relationship is which would allow a 39 year old Male to call a 13 year old Female his "Sister in Law"? I am puzzled because, as far as I can see, neither the 39 year old nor his Wife seem to be related to the 13 year old in any way Thanks Peter Jones

Dick, Check this link for information on workhouses. http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?poorlaws/poorlaws.shtml If the link fails, Google workhouses.org Good luck Richard Brown Bromley, Kent U.K. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 06:46:56 -0000 From: "Richard Fowler" <dfowler1@onetel.com> Subject: [KENT-ENG] Workhouse/Hospital/ ship Births and deaths :=>< SNIP What happened before the centralised Union workhouses were established? When were there earlier epidemics in Thanet? Was a hospital ship used in Thanet and did this change procedures? Many Thanks Dick Fowler ***************************************

Recent postings on the Kent list about hospital ships being used during Cholera epidemics either to supplement or replace use of workhouses during epidemics trigger several questions. I have 2 child deaths in Minster workhouse in the 1854 cholera epidemic recorded in Minster and also notified to St Laurence parish and recorded in the registers there. But I suspect others were not recorded in this way. Were there any rules or conventions about regiistration in this situation or was it likely to be chaos with healthy poor being sent out; workhouse officials, nurses, cooks disappearing or dying etc, ? What records might be kept by 'Fever Hospitals'? And where were they? What happened before the centralised Union workhouses were established? When were there earlier epidemics in Thanet? Was a hospital ship used in Thanet and did this change procedures? Many Thanks Dick Fowler

Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions. The writing is stacked like below, so I think the suggestion of hours and minutes as she was a twin makes sense. She comes up on census with a sister the same age, and they are in the indexes, but I won't say for sure she is a twin until I obtain the certificate, but its likely. Thank you again for all your help On 5 February 2010 19:05, muddcity <muddcity@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi > > I just rejoined the Kent list tonight as i had left to give myself a break > > But have started digging again for my own ancestors as well as helping a > friend. I am hoping that someone can help me decipher something on a birth > cert. > > I sent off for my friends mothers birth certficate. She was born in Sand St > in Woolwich, but the entry where the date of birth is there are two extra > lines of script. > > It says > > 30th Nov 1894 > H - M > 5 - am > 49 Sand St > > Its the H - M that I am puzzled about. We think she was a twin and I am > lucky in that it gives the time of birth. but can anyone suggest what the > H-M is about. > > Thanks for any help and suggestions > > Lynn >

I had the same thing with a 'grandchild' listed but it turned out he was actually a nephew of the head of household's daughter-in-law's deceased sister! I had to do some searching on that one! How far back and sideways have you searched?? Andy http://www.savekingstonhospital.org.uk/ Save Kingston Hospital by signing this petition. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Jones" <peterjones550@btinternet.com> To: <KENT-ENG@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:33 PM Subject: [KENT-ENG] Brother or Sister in Law > Hi List > > > Can someone remind me what the relationship is which would allow a 39 year > old Male to call a 13 year old Female his "Sister in Law"? > > I am puzzled because, as far as I can see, neither the 39 year old nor his > Wife seem to be related to the 13 year old in any way > > Thanks > > Peter Jones > > Studying Trus(s)lers worldwide > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > KENT-ENG-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi List Can someone remind me what the relationship is which would allow a 39 year old Male to call a 13 year old Female his "Sister in Law"? I am puzzled because, as far as I can see, neither the 39 year old nor his Wife seem to be related to the 13 year old in any way Thanks Peter Jones Studying Trus(s)lers worldwide

Hi Peter, Think "Sister by law" in place of "Sister-in-law". The terms in-law and step-... were not fully understood by the masses until quite late - 1870s to 1890s - and did not often appear on the census in those designations until that time. What we know, today, as a step-sister (being the biological child of one of the parents, only) was generally referred to as sister-in-law when in fact the person had been a sister 'by' law owing to the marriage of one of her biological parents to a different spouse than the brother. This scenario also holds true in respect of your man's wife's parents. So, in your case, you will likely find that the sister-in-law had been either, 1. the daughter of your man's mother; 2. the daughter of your man's father; 3. the daughter of your man's wife's mother; or, 4. the daughter of your man's wife's father. Happy hunting and I hope this explanation is clear. Sincerely, Susan D. Young, St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada Chief Executive, Ancestry Solutions www.ancestrysolutions.com County Administrator, Kent OPC www.kent-opc.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Jones" <peterjones550@btinternet.com> To: <KENT-ENG@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 5:33 PM Subject: [KENT-ENG] Brother or Sister in Law > Hi List > > > Can someone remind me what the relationship is which would allow a 39 year > old Male to call a 13 year old Female his "Sister in Law"? > > I am puzzled because, as far as I can see, neither the 39 year old nor his > Wife seem to be related to the 13 year old in any way > > Thanks > > Peter Jones > > Studying Trus(s)lers worldwide > > > >

I have seen the term used when the person concerned was a step-sister or step-brother ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Jones" <peterjones550@btinternet.com> To: <KENT-ENG@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:33 PM Subject: [KENT-ENG] Brother or Sister in Law > Hi List > > > Can someone remind me what the relationship is which would allow a 39 year > old Male to call a 13 year old Female his "Sister in Law"? > > I am puzzled because, as far as I can see, neither the 39 year old nor his > Wife seem to be related to the 13 year old in any way > > Thanks > > Peter Jones > > Studying Trus(s)lers worldwide > > >

Barbara Clarke wrote: > Hi Charani > Yes there was an outbreak of cholera in Britain, 1853-1854. > I believe that hospital ships were initially for sailors but that other > sick citizens were also admitted. > There were hospital ship/ships in the area you are searching. Yes, I am > pretty sure the C would have indicated cholera. > If you google "hospital ships cholera" you will get masses of > information, apologies if you have already done this. Many thanks :)) The registers gave no obvious indication whether those who'd died were sailors or local citizens. I've just been reading the transcript of a lecture given on this subject. It was very interesting as was the piece about hospital ships on the Workhouses site. It'll be interesting to see what my George LEWIS's cause of death was when his cert arrives. There wasn't a C by his name so probably not cholera. It seemed to be only those who were given as being from the "Hospital Ship". -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

The certificate probably won't tell you whether she is a twin. My great grandmother's birth certificate states that she was born at "30 minutes past 6 A.M.", which I thought strange but no indication of her being a twin. I didn't even think of that either, as there was no close sibling on any census. Eventually another family member told me that she'd had a twin brother who died quite soon after birth. He is present on FreeBMD with exactly the same details and one of these days I'll spring for his birth certificate too to see what time he was born. Terry, Oakville, Ontario >but I won't say for sure she is a twin until I obtain the certificate, but its likely.

dk990 wrote: > There was a hospital ship the Dreadnought moored at Greenwich which acted > like the navy's veteran's home. The death registers of st Alfrege's are > full of the deaths of inhabitants of the Dreadnought. I imagine conditions > on it were fairly dreadful. Thank you :)) Conditions may well have been pretty dire and a veteran needn't necessarily have been an older person. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk

On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 19:05:19 +0000 muddcity <muddcity@gmail.com> wrote: Hello muddcity, > Its the H - M that I am puzzled about. We think she was a twin and I > am lucky in that it gives the time of birth. In the event of twins time of birth is important. Not at the time, but later, for inheritance purposes, etc. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)rad never immediately apparent" Why do they try to hide our past pulling down houses and build car parks Bricks & Mortar - The Jam

Lynne Berntsson wrote: > Hi Charani > > There used to be hospital ships at Long reach there was 1 ship called > the Castalia, from what I can see is as they were for smallpox sufferers > then it maybe the C is for that ship > > http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?MAB-HospitalShips/MAB-HospitalShips.shtml > > this tells you about them Thank you for that. I wouldn't have thought to look on the Workhouses site for hospital ships! :)) It's a bit later than the entries I'd found but gives a very good picture. -- Charani (UK) OPC for Walton, Greinton and Clutton, SOM Asst OPC for Ashcott and Shapwick, SOM http://wsom-opc.org.uk