Quote: "The message is that there are no knowns. There are things that we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things we now know, we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns - things we do not know we don't know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all of this information together, and we then say, 'Well that's basically what we see as the situation,' that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year we discover a few more of the unknown unknowns." Unquote Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld made the above remarks to an Indian press conference on a recent trip to Pakistan and India regarding the current War on Terror. It strikes me as a pretty good explanation of the study of genealogy and the problems associated therewith. When asked to translate, Secretary Rumsfeld replied, "There is another way to phrase that and that is, that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Rsp. Jim Allen Claimina kin to Arthur 1627-1698 Surry Va George 1657-1718 Thomas 1700-1769 Drury, Sr. 1765/67-1835 etc., etc. through Mom [email protected] wrote: > Robert, > > Can you tell us your definition of PROVEN? This seems to vary considerably > among family historians. > Everyone seems to agree that "aunt Tilly said so" isn't proof, but the > documentation for establishing > a line needs to be defined. Of course, contemplated genetic testing > involving the Y chromosome may be > useful as biological proof, which may be even better than some written > records. > > Scott Jordan (a member of the Pennsylvania Jordan line) > > --On Sunday, July 07, 2002 12:33 PM -0300 Robert Jordan <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Please let me float this idea by you. I would be happy to hear from other > > Jordans concerning proven family lines. I don't care if your line is only > > 3 generations. Do we have PROVEN members from the Thomas line of VA? Do > > we have PROVEN members from Robert of Maine? How about Solomon from NC? > > Any GA-AL Jordans? Any others? I would be willing to start a catalog of > > proven Jordan lines and publish to the list once per month. I would > > publish the Jordan ancestor name (location, aprox. birth-death dates), > > the name of the sender and state, and the number of generations from that > > ancestor, and use the letter system for ID. Please send your answers to > > the Jordan List so we might find the best solution. I would like to wait > > a week before starting the data base. If someone has a web-site for data > > base purposes (and I don't) please let us know if you would be interested > > in collecting this type information. Thanks. Bob Jordan > > > > > > ==== JORDAN Mailing List ==== > > JORDAN list website - http://www2.netdoor.com/~cch/lists/JORDAN.htm > > > > ==== JORDAN Mailing List ==== > JORDAN list website - http://www2.netdoor.com/~cch/lists/JORDAN.htm

There are several Fleming Jordans, and yes they do come from this family. This family combined names all over the place. Fleming Bates, is another very popular one. Tarleton Fleming, is another.....on and on. Carleen

Well, here is my take on DNA "proof." How do you know that you are not matching any number of lines in VA, i.e., females, or some you don't even know you belong to? Everyone has some unknown female lines, and since there were not, comparably, that many people in early VA, what does it tell you? You would have to know every line, complete, to see that you are not matching some other way. Does this make sense? Carleen

Bob, I would also like to know what your definition of "proven" is. I am a 5th generation Alabama Jordan. My documentation comes from bible records, land sales, and elderly relatives who still live on the land that "ole" Grandpa Jordan homesteaded. Janet

I said I did not have this will for Samuel Jordan, but I see I did/do have some information somewhere, because I have that Samuel had "two daughters who were minors at the time of his death." So let me look in all my old files (30 yrs worth) and see if I have something more. Carleen

Samuel Jordan IS the son of Thomas of Nansmond Co. I don't understand your question/statement. Carleen

--On Sunday, July 07, 2002 3:32 PM +0000 [email protected] wrote: > Well, here is my take on DNA "proof." How do you know that you are not > matching any number of lines in VA, i.e., females, or some you don't even > know you belong to? Everyone has some unknown female lines, and since > there were not, comparably, that many people in early VA, what does it > tell you? You would have to know every line, complete, to see that you > are not matching some other way. > Does this make sense? > Carleen I think it depends on what is being tested. As I understand it, the markers on the Y chromosome are a test of identity in the paternal line. If two males have the same Y chromosome markers, they are presumptively related, whether as siblings, or distant cousins. The Y chromosome is thought to be stable for many generations. Changes in the Y chromosome may occur over a period of centuries, but even then there are many points of similarity. The disadvantage is that Y chromosome analysis is limited to the male line. You probably have a valid point regarding other types of genetic testing. I agree that it is important to have as much information as possible about classical kinship information. Scott Jordan -- PA line

Please let me float this idea by you. I would be happy to hear from other Jordans concerning proven family lines. I don't care if your line is only 3 generations. Do we have PROVEN members from the Thomas line of VA? Do we have PROVEN members from Robert of Maine? How about Solomon from NC? Any GA-AL Jordans? Any others? I would be willing to start a catalog of proven Jordan lines and publish to the list once per month. I would publish the Jordan ancestor name (location, aprox. birth-death dates), the name of the sender and state, and the number of generations from that ancestor, and use the letter system for ID. Please send your answers to the Jordan List so we might find the best solution. I would like to wait a week before starting the data base. If someone has a web-site for data base purposes (and I don't) please let us know if you would be interested in collecting this type information. Thanks. Bob Jordan

I've looked at several DNA tests sites and have tentatively decided to go with Family Tree DNA for testing. If anyone has knowledge of any other testing service that might be as good, please let me know so I can take a look. They only have one Jordan listed in their data base right now. It should take a couple of months to get the results and at that time I will publish to the Jordan list. My markers won't do any good unless there is a match with others. I am generation 11 from Arthur Jordan of Surry Co. VA and have documented my line about as well as can be done through primary records. I am age 65 right now, so I doubt if these results can be used against me. Anyone heard of DNA stealing? http://www.familytreedna.com/index.html When I publish my results, I would hope a couple of other Jordans from Arthur will do the same so we can be sure of the results.

Robert, Can you tell us your definition of PROVEN? This seems to vary considerably among family historians. Everyone seems to agree that "aunt Tilly said so" isn't proof, but the documentation for establishing a line needs to be defined. Of course, contemplated genetic testing involving the Y chromosome may be useful as biological proof, which may be even better than some written records. Scott Jordan (a member of the Pennsylvania Jordan line) --On Sunday, July 07, 2002 12:33 PM -0300 Robert Jordan <[email protected]> wrote: > Please let me float this idea by you. I would be happy to hear from other > Jordans concerning proven family lines. I don't care if your line is only > 3 generations. Do we have PROVEN members from the Thomas line of VA? Do > we have PROVEN members from Robert of Maine? How about Solomon from NC? > Any GA-AL Jordans? Any others? I would be willing to start a catalog of > proven Jordan lines and publish to the list once per month. I would > publish the Jordan ancestor name (location, aprox. birth-death dates), > the name of the sender and state, and the number of generations from that > ancestor, and use the letter system for ID. Please send your answers to > the Jordan List so we might find the best solution. I would like to wait > a week before starting the data base. If someone has a web-site for data > base purposes (and I don't) please let us know if you would be interested > in collecting this type information. Thanks. Bob Jordan > > > ==== JORDAN Mailing List ==== > JORDAN list website - http://www2.netdoor.com/~cch/lists/JORDAN.htm >

Can someone give a location for this will? I would think the speculation that there is a connection to Thomas Jordan of Nans. Co. VA is through the Fleming and Pleasant names. Can anyone clarify and give children's names? Estate files? Bob Jordan Will of Samuel Jordan I Samuel Jordan of New Kent County being sick and weak of body but of perfect sense and memory praise God for it Do make this my Last Will & Testament in manner and form following viz; It is My will that my loving Wife Elizabeth keep in her possession during the time she continues my Widow all my Negroes for the support of herself and children and likewise all others of my Personal Estate of what nature of kind soever to be in her possession for the aforesaid use during the time she continues my Widdow but if she marries again it is my Will that she then have only her Dower of my Negroes and one fourth part of what of my Estate that is then left of what nature or kind soever and the other two thirds of my Negroes and three fourths of my Personal Estate to be equally divided between my five children or so many of them that is living But it is my Will that if she continues my Widdow till any of our children comes to age that they then are to receive their proportionable part of the moveable Estate as they come to age, then my Widdow to keep all my Negroes whilst the youngest of my children comes to age for their support and education and when the youngest come to age that then one half of the negroes be divided Equally between my children and the other half to continue for the support of my loving wife if she continues my Widdow and after her decease to be equally divided amongst my children. I likewise appoint my loving wife Elizabeth Executrix of this my Last Will & Testament and do appoint and I empower my true and well beloved Friends Charles Fleming John Fleming Tarlton Woodson and Thomas Pleasant to see this my will performed and in case of any of their Death the Survivors to choose another in his room. It is my Will that if my wife die before my children come to age that all the Estate be equally divided between my children as well as the Negroes as other Personal Estate which I leave wholly to the management of my Friends above named and the Court to have nothing to do with it. It is my Will that my well Beloved Friend John Fleming have the Plantation of Thomas Langford deed and the management of his Estate and the bringing up of his son Thomas as wholely to himself. In Testimony whereof I have hereunto act my hand and affixed my Seal this second day of October In the year of our Lord Christ one Thousand Seven hundred and Eighteen. Saml Jordan Signed & Sealed New Kent: 11 June 1719 This will was In the Presents of us proved in open Court by the Oaths of Chas. Charl es Boulton Boulton and Susanh Bacon two Of the witnesses to it. Mary Baker Subscribed and admitted to record. Susannah Bacon Test: J. Thornton Elizabeth X Turner 0. Court her mark A Copy Test: Will: Clayton, C. C

To Norman Jordan and others, We do need to find someone to post a web-site in a protected area (where it doesn't disappear if the person maintaining it drops out). I think a good candidate would be a spread sheet expert. I also know of a dozen different Jordan lines from early VA, NC, Maine, and PA. If we are relatively sure of a Jordan line back to the 1600s or early 1700s, these can be labeled A-B-C. If we run out of letters, then go to double letters - AA-BB-CC. I think that would give us around 700 possibilities. Only Jordan lines with good accuracy should be used. If one Jordan line is reliable only to 1850 for instance - only that line should be used. All of the speculation should be removed before that 1850 date. Perhaps DNA would show if the speculation might be right. Most of the Jordans came from England, but other European countries can be involved. Leave out the English ancestors if there is speculation. We also need English DNA, which I think we could find. Also, I have questions on the te! sting. For instance, how would the DNA testing show up for different generations? My grandfather Jordan had two different wives - 3 boys from the first, 4 boys from the second. How would my DNA compare to my second half cousin, who is a generation younger than myself? Bob Jordan X-Message: #3 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 17:56:16 -0400 From: "Norman Jordan" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [JORDAN] DNA Testing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, Norman Jordan of the New England group here. I have been talking about a DNA study for a year now. Lots of people seem to think it a good idea but it has not got off the ground yet. We are having our yearly business meeting in two weeks and I am going to bring it up. I know of several Jordan Families. Arthur, Thomas and Samuel in VA. and mow all over, our Rev. Robert in Maine. The large family in Calif. comes from Arthur (I think) . Then have e-mailed with family in Nova Scotia, Canada. There Jordan came from England in early 1800's do not think they know where in England. Have talked to a Jordan family in Australia that trace back to England in 1500's. Also we have family in England who we think are related to our Rev. Robert bur can not prove it.. This would make a good DNA study. What is needed is someone to manage the study. Maybe a teacher or person used to planing a project and pushing it along to conclusion. Three good places to find info on DNA. Ancestry GenetiKit at www.ancestry.com/genetics. Oxford Ancestors at www.oxfordancestors.com. Family Tree DNAat www.familytreedna.com. Norman

I know of things written on Fleming Jordan in GA in 1800's. I see that in the will, 2 of Thomas Jordan's friends have last name of Fleming. Is there a connection? I know that sometimes children were named for friends or perhaps Jordans married into Flemings, and it was given from a mother's surname. I am researching Gray Jordan in GA and MS and cannot find his father,,,he comes from the same area and time frame on the Fleming Jordan that I find(whom much is written about). I have yet to connect them (if there is a connection). Kathy

They tell me that DNA testing for females is more costly and more complicated. Figures! Carleen

Bob, Norman Jordan of the New England group here. I have been talking about a DNA study for a year now. Lots of people seem to think it a good idea but it has not got off the ground yet. We are having our yearly business meeting in two weeks and I am going to bring it up. I know of several Jordan Families. Arthur, Thomas and Samuel in VA. and mow all over, our Rev. Robert in Maine. The large family in Calif. comes from Arthur (I think) . Then have e-mailed with family in Nova Scotia, Canada. There Jordan came from England in early 1800's do not think they know where in England. Have talked to a Jordan family in Australia that trace back to England in 1500's. Also we have family in England who we think are related to our Rev. Robert bur can not prove it.. This would make a good DNA study. What is needed is someone to manage the study. Maybe a teacher or person used to planing a project and pushing it along to conclusion. Three good places to find info on DNA. Ancestry GenetiKit at www.ancestry.com/genetics. Oxford Ancestors at www.oxfordancestors.com. Family Tree DNAat www.familytreedna.com. Norman ---- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Jordan" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 12:28 PM Subject: [JORDAN] DNA Testing > Other surname lists have started DNA testing for male descendants in their lines. I'm thinking about completing a test for myself because I am descended from Arthur Jordan (1627-99) of Surry Co. VA (95 percent probability). If I should complete the test, would there be a place where this information could be stored and compared? Others that might think about these tests would be male descents of Thomas of VA and the New England group, plus other early Jordan lines. > > Bob Jordan > > > > ==== JORDAN Mailing List ==== > JORDAN list website - http://www2.netdoor.com/~cch/lists/JORDAN.htm > >

Yes, I am interested in knowing where you can put your DNA for future public knowledge. Jeannette Is your family already traced? Find out at www.georgiapioneers.com

Hello Everyone, Below is copy of the will of Samuel JORDAN of New Kent Co., VA. This Samuel is believed to be the son of Thomas JORDAN and Margaret BRASSEUR. I found this in a published book of VA wills, but I can't remember the exact title (I misplaced the title page). I forgot I had this until I was cleaning out my file cabinet. Anyway, thought it might be helpful to other JORDAN researchers. If anyone knows this source of this, let me know. Sincerely, Kim Ivey <[email protected]> ______________________________________ Will of Samuel Jordan I Samuel Jordan of New Kent County being sick and weak of body but of perfect sense and memory praise God for it Do make this my Last Will & Testament in manner and form following viz; It is My will that my loving Wife Elizabeth keep in her possession during the time she continues my Widow all my Negroes for the support of herself and children and likewise all others of my Personal Estate of what nature of kind soever to be in her possession for the aforesaid use during the time she continues my Widdow but if she marries again it is my Will that she then have only her Dower of my Negroes and one fourth part of what of my Estate that is then left of what nature or kind soever and the other two thirds of my Negroes and three fourths of my Personal Estate to be equally divided between my five children or so many of them that is living But it is my Will that if she continues my Widdow till any of our children comes to age that they then are to receive their proportionable part of the moveable Estate as they come to age, then my Widdow to keep all my Negroes whilst the youngest of my children comes to age for their support and education and when the youngest come to age that then one half of the negroes be divided Equally between my children and the other half to continue for the support of my loving wife if she continues my Widdow and after her decease to be equally divided amongst my children. I likewise appoint my loving wife Elizabeth Executrix of this my Last Will & Testament and do appoint and I empower my true and well beloved Friends Charles Fleming John Fleming Tarlton Woodson and Thomas Pleasant to see this my will performed and in case of any of their Death the Survivors to choose another in his room. It is my Will that if my wife die before my children come to age that all the Estate be equally divided between my children as well as the Negroes as other Personal Estate which I leave wholly to the management of my Friends above named and the Court to have nothing to do with it. It is my Will that my well Beloved Friend John Fleming have the Plantation of Thomas Langford deed and the management of his Estate and the bringing up of his son Thomas as wholely to himself. In Testimony whereof I have hereunto act my hand and affixed my Seal this second day of October In the year of our Lord Christ one Thousand Seven hundred and Eighteen. Saml Jordan Signed & Sealed New Kent: 11 June 1719 This will was In the Presents of us proved in open Court by the Oaths of Chas. Charl es Boulton Boulton and Susanh Bacon two Of the witnesses to it. Mary Baker Subscribed and admitted to record. Susannah Bacon Test: J. Thornton Elizabeth X Turner 0. Court her mark A Copy Test: Will: Clayton, C. C

For those interested in DNA testing, it would be a good idea to start with the Ancestry.com site which explains the DNA animal. I think Rootsweb also has some explanations. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?sourceid=1644&targetid=3346

Other surname lists have started DNA testing for male descendants in their lines. I'm thinking about completing a test for myself because I am descended from Arthur Jordan (1627-99) of Surry Co. VA (95 percent probability). If I should complete the test, would there be a place where this information could be stored and compared? Others that might think about these tests would be male descents of Thomas of VA and the New England group, plus other early Jordan lines. Bob Jordan

I am researching my gg-grandfather Wiley Prentiss JORDAN dob 01/24/1840 in NC, dod 09/01/1915 m. Elizabeth Susan CAMPBELL dob 11/02/1827 in SC dod 02/26/1918. I would like to know any information about his parents and siblings and his Civil War service. Also where he and his wife are buried and where they died. Their children: John Jasper JORDAN, my g-grandfather Benjamin Franklin JORDAN Elizabeth Holland JORDAN Thomas Hudson JORDAN James Baker JORDAN Jerome JORDAN Wiley Prentiss "Bud" JORDAN, Jr. Any help or information will be much appreciated. I will be glad to share. Peggy Peninger [email protected]