These pages describe a turmoil in Pennsylvania government, as is was. The discussion is not so much about how they should govern, as is how they should be governed. As Freeholders they carried some weight...but it seems they defered to the royalty, yet decided against them in matters of representation...or in some counties non-representation to date. This is a Charter for some means of self-government and everyone is lost. Read for yourself and give opinion. Colonial Records of Pennsylvania, Vol. 2 pages 82-86 MINUTES OF THE PROVINCIAL COUNCIL Hora 3tia, Present Iidem qui antea. The Representatives of both Province and Territories, after some considerable stay, at Length by a message, desired to know of the Governour and Council, when they might attend: To which Answer was made forthwith if they were ready. Accordingly they came, and Joseph Growdon, in the name of the rest acquainted the Govr that they had the Questions sent to them by Ordr of Council, and having maturely Considered them, they of the Province and those of the Territories Distinctly, they had severally drawn up their answers in writing, wch they gave in, and that of the Province was first Read in these words: We, The Representatives of the Freemen of the Province of Pensilvania, are both willing and Desirous to Proceed in Ordr to act in Assembly, according to the Direction of the Charter, Being the foot on which we conceive ourselves called and Convened. Witness our hands the day and year first above written. Andrew Job, David Lloyd, Griffith Jones, Nicholas Pule, Antho Morris, John Swift, John Warrall, Jer Langhorn, Willm Paxon. John Bennett, Joseph Growdon, Those of the Lower Counties also presented theirs in the following words: Philadelphia, November 19th, 1702 The answer to two propositions sent to the members of the three Lower Counties by order of the Governour and Council. The said members finding they are called here on a different foot with those of the upper Counties cannot, if there was no other obstacle, joyn with them in Legislation, But are cheerful and willing when warrantably convened to proceed in Assembly to answer her majesties Commands, & such other matters of Importance as shall then be laid before them, though they'll not psume to direct the Governmt in what methods to convene them, they supposing it not their business but that of those who rule over them. Signed Robt. ffrench, Richard Halliwell, Jasper Yeats, Evan Jones, Thomas Sharp, John ffoster, John Hill, Joseph Booth. Both which being severally read, The Governour answered to those of the Province, That their answer eluded the intent of the Question which was laid in positive words to obtain the Like answer, instead of wch they had Returned one wholly ambiguous and therefore desired them to explain whether they meant by these words, [That they were both willing and desirous to proceed in order to act in assembly according to the direction of the Charter.] That they were willing now to proceed in conjunction with the Lower Counties as called, or that they were desirous according to Charter to have more members added. To which some of the members answered they Intended by it that they were willing now to proceed on the foot they were now chosen with the Lower Counties. David Lloyd Insisted that they had given their answer agreed on ye Govr Continued to require their Intentions severally, To which Anthony Morris answered, That it expressly his meaning to proceed forthwth in Conjunction with the Lower Counties on ye foot they were now Chosen, wch he understood to be Charter , that he took to be the meaning of their answer and of all those that signed it, & Repeating this Severall times over desired that if any other member had any thing to object against this he prest that they might speak, David Lloyd continued to interpose that the question might be no further urged, affirming their answer was Plain and clear, tho the question was double and ambiguous. The Governour still Insisted that they might severally and expressly declare their meaning, but those of the Lower Counties and David Lloyd opposed, still Requesting the Question might be no further put, upon which they were Licensed to withdraw, and desired to wait on the Govr to morrow at ten of the clock, at which time they should have their full answer; till when the Council adjourned. _______________________ At a Council held at Philadia, 20th 9br., 1702 Present: the same as before. The Govr and Council Entring into Consideration what was fitt to be done, and the psent Circumstances of things relating to this Government being duly weighed, It was resolved to be at this Juncture most expedient to Dismisse the members, both of the Upper and Lower Counties, till time might offer some Occasion by advice from England, or otherwise facilitate or necessitate their better agreement, or finally to divide them, Whereupon a Message was ordered to know if they had met, and desire their attendance on ye Governour, and being come they were asked if they had any thing to add to their answers given in last night in writing, to which they answered they had not; then the Govrnr. addressed himself to them to this effect: Seeing neither the Importance and weight of what had been laid before them, first verbally and after by a message more fully in writing, nor the ill consequence of a separation could prevaile with the members of the Lower Counties to proceed at this time with those of the province in Legislation, wch separation must needs ensue, or the Province be left in a very ill state if the members of the Counties continue to insist on the same objections as now; and pretend other obstacles, and seeing the members of the Province were not a Sufficient number to act, the Governour was unwilling to spend their time any further to no purpose, and therefore, with advice of Council, thought fitt to Dismiss them, and accordingly they were thereby Dismissed. And the Council adjourned of course. _________________________ Memorandum. In the afternoon all the members of the Province waited on the Governour, and by an address under all their hands and Seals Desired that according to Charter they might be enabled to hold an Assembly by the addition of more members for each County, and two for Philadelphia City. Mendm also, That all the sd members, (Joseph Growdon & David Lloyd excepted,) declared one by one their intention was to proceed Immediately. The address was in these words: To ANDREW HAMILTON, Esqr., Deputy Govr of the Province of Pensilvania, &c: The Humble Address and Request of the Representatives of the ffreemen of the respective Counties of Philadia, Bucks & Chester, Elected to serve in Assembly for the said Province, In all humble manner shew: That Wm Penn, Proprietary and Govr. of the said province, &c, by his Grant or Charter Under his hand and broad Seal, bearing date the Twenty-eighth Day of October, in the year 1701, Did Grant unto the Inhabitants, ffreeholders and others of this Province and Territories, divers Immunities, Rights & Privileges for the well being, Good Governmt, and Benefit thereof, In and by which Charter the said Proprietary did, amongst other things, declare that if the Representatives of the Province and Territories Should not hereafter agree to Join together in Legislation, and that the same should be signified to the said Proprietary or his Deputy, in open Assembly or otherwise, from under the hands and Seals of the Representatives (for the time being) of the Province or Territories, or the major part of either of them, at any time within three Yeares from the Date of the said Charter, That in such Case the Inhabitants of Eachof the three Counties of this Province should not have less than eight Persons to Represent them in Assembly for the Province, And the Inhabitants of each County in the Territories should have as many persons to Represent them in a Distinct assembly for the Territories, as should be Requested by them as aforesaid as by the same Charter Relation being thereunto had, may more fully appeare. Now for as much as the freeholders of the three Counties of this province, To Witt: Philadelphia, Bucks & Chester, according to the Direction of the said Charter, having in their severall Counties mett on the ffirst day of October last, and by a majority of voters Elected us whose names are Subscribed to be their representatives in assembly, as by the returns of the respective Sheriffs may appear, And we making our personal appearance here at Philadelphia, on ye fourteenth Day of the same month according to the Charter, to attend the Governour in Legislacon, & to doe & perform our Duty & Service in Assembly. And the Secretary in Council then declared, That no Representatives were Returned to serve in this Assembly for the Territories, to witt: The Counties of New Castle, Kent and Sussex, Which manifestly proved their Disagreemt to and non acceptance of the sd Charter. Nevertheless It pleased the Governour & Council to indulge them so farr as to Issue forth Writts Impowering them (notwithstanding their said Omission or neglect,) to chuse their Representatives to serve in this Assembly, and most of us then agreed to meet here on the Sixteenth of November instant, in order to receive them & proceed to business. In pursuance of which writts, it seem the sd Inhabitants have Elected and sent up their Delegates, who after several Debates and Conferences about their and our Joynt acting in Assembly, they were pleased to Express their unwillingnesse therevnto, And further declare their Dislike of the said Charter, and refused to agree to Joyn together with us in Legislation by vertue thereof, Which lays a necessity vpon vs humbly to Signify the same under our hands and Seals, Earnestly Requesting That thou wilt be pleased, either by writt or otherwise, to Cause our Number to be Compleat as the said Charter directs, that is to say for each County of this Province four more members and two for the Town of Philadelphia, (now Incorporated,) added unto us, whereby we may be Enabled, with as much Expedicon as may be Considering our present circumstances and Emergency of Affairs to act in Legislacon, and to prevent the great Inconveniency that we conceive will attend the Province by being not in a present posture to answer the Exigencies of Government in form of an Assembly, desireing that the number of nine members may be made vp to represent the County of Bucks, and as many for the County of Chester. Joseph Growdon, Samll. Richardson, John Swift, Griffith Jones, William Paxon, Nicholas Pyle, Jer. Langhorn, Andrew Job, 86 David Lloyd, John Bennett, Anthony Morris, John Worrall. I sine with Exception againste ye adionall member more then Eight for bucks and Chester County, by Griffith Jones. Transcribed bu Gale and Lonnie Vanderpol GorLVDPOL@aoil.com Do not go where the path may lead; Go where there is no path and leave a trail. Emerson

Wow--that boggles the mind--lol! Very confusing, but seems like there always has been disagreement in politics. :o) xoxo Patti These pages describe a turmoil in Pennsylvania government, as is was. The discussion is not so much about how they should govern, as is how they should be governed. As Freeholders they carried some weight...but it seems they defered to the royalty, yet decided against them in matters of representation...or in some counties non-representation to date. This is a Charter for some means of self-government and everyone is lost. Read for yourself and give opinion. Colonial Records of Pennsylvania, Vol. 2 pages 82-86 MINUTES OF THE PROVINCIAL COUNCIL Hora 3tia, Present Iidem qui antea. The Representatives of both Province and Territories, after some considerable stay, at Length by a message, desired to know of the Governour and Council, when they might attend: To which Answer was made forthwith if they were ready. Accordingly they came, and Joseph Growdon, in the name of the rest acquainted the Govr that they had the Questions sent to them by Ordr of Council, and having maturely Considered them, they of the Province and those of the Territories Distinctly, they had severally drawn up their answers in writing, wch they gave in, and that of the Province was first Read in these words: We, The Representatives of the Freemen of the Province of Pensilvania, are both willing and Desirous to Proceed in Ordr to act in Assembly, according to the Direction of the Charter, Being the foot on which we conceive ourselves called and Convened. Witness our hands the day and year first above written. Andrew Job, David Lloyd, Griffith Jones, Nicholas Pule, Antho Morris, John Swift, John Warrall, Jer Langhorn, Willm Paxon. John Bennett, Joseph Growdon, Those of the Lower Counties also presented theirs in the following words: Philadelphia, November 19th, 1702 The answer to two propositions sent to the members of the three Lower Counties by order of the Governour and Council. The said members finding they are called here on a different foot with those of the upper Counties cannot, if there was no other obstacle, joyn with them in Legislation, But are cheerful and willing when warrantably convened to proceed in Assembly to answer her majesties Commands, & such other matters of Importance as shall then be laid before them, though they'll not psume to direct the Governmt in what methods to convene them, they supposing it not their business but that of those who rule over them. Signed Robt. ffrench, Richard Halliwell, Jasper Yeats, Evan Jones, Thomas Sharp, John ffoster, John Hill, Joseph Booth. Both which being severally read, The Governour answered to those of the Province, That their answer eluded the intent of the Question which was laid in positive words to obtain the Like answer, instead of wch they had Returned one wholly ambiguous and therefore desired them to explain whether they meant by these words, [That they were both willing and desirous to proceed in order to act in assembly according to the direction of the Charter.] That they were willing now to proceed in conjunction with the Lower Counties as called, or that they were desirous according to Charter to have more members added. To which some of the members answered they Intended by it that they were willing now to proceed on the foot they were now chosen with the Lower Counties. David Lloyd Insisted that they had given their answer agreed on ye Govr Continued to require their Intentions severally, To which Anthony Morris answered, That it expressly his meaning to proceed forthwth in Conjunction w! ith the Lower Counties on ye foot they were now Chosen, wch he understood to be Charter , that he took to be the meaning of their answer and of all those that signed it, & Repeating this Severall times over desired that if any other member had any thing to object against this he prest that they might speak, David Lloyd continued to interpose that the question might be no further urged, affirming their answer was Plain and clear, tho the question was double and ambiguous. The Governour still Insisted that they might severally and expressly declare their meaning, but those of the Lower Counties and David Lloyd opposed, still Requesting the Question might be no further put, upon which they were Licensed to withdraw, and desired to wait on the Govr to morrow at ten of the clock, at which time they should have their full answer; till when the Council adjourned. _______________________ At a Council held at Philadia, 20th 9br., 1702 Present: the same as before. The Govr and Council Entring into Consideration what was fitt to be done, and the psent Circumstances of things relating to this Government being duly weighed, It was resolved to be at this Juncture most expedient to Dismisse the members, both of the Upper and Lower Counties, till time might offer some Occasion by advice from England, or otherwise facilitate or necessitate their better agreement, or finally to divide them, Whereupon a Message was ordered to know if they had met, and desire their attendance on ye Governour, and being come they were asked if they had any thing to add to their answers given in last night in writing, to which they answered they had not; then the Govrnr. addressed himself to them to this effect: Seeing neither the Importance and weight of what had been laid before them, first verbally and after by a message more fully in writing, nor the ill consequence of a separation could prevaile with the members of the Lower Counties to proceed at this time with those of the province in Legislation, wch separation must needs ensue, or the Province be left in a very ill state if the members of the Counties continue to insist on the same objections as now; and pretend other obstacles, and seeing the members of the Province were not a Sufficient number to act, the Governour was unwilling to spend their time any further to no purpose, and therefore, with advice of Council, thought fitt to Dismiss them, and accordingly they were thereby Dismissed. And the Council adjourned of course. _________________________ Memorandum. In the afternoon all the members of the Province waited on the Governour, and by an address under all their hands and Seals Desired that according to Charter they might be enabled to hold an Assembly by the addition of more members for each County, and two for Philadelphia City. Mendm also, That all the sd members, (Joseph Growdon & David Lloyd excepted,) declared one by one their intention was to proceed Immediately. The address was in these words: To ANDREW HAMILTON, Esqr., Deputy Govr of the Province of Pensilvania, &c: The Humble Address and Request of the Representatives of the ffreemen of the respective Counties of Philadia, Bucks & Chester, Elected to serve in Assembly for the said Province, In all humble manner shew: That Wm Penn, Proprietary and Govr. of the said province, &c, by his Grant or Charter Under his hand and broad Seal, bearing date the Twenty-eighth Day of October, in the year 1701, Did Grant unto the Inhabitants, ffreeholders and others of this Province and Territories, divers Immunities, Rights & Privileges for the well being, Good Governmt, and Benefit thereof, In and by which Charter the said Proprietary did, amongst other things, declare that if the Representatives of the Province and Territories Should not hereafter agree to Join together in Legislation, and that the same should be signified to the said Proprietary or his Deputy, in open Assembly or otherwise, from under the hands and Seals of the Representatives (for the time being) of the Province or Territories, or the major part of either of them, at any time within three Yeares from the Date of the said Charter, That in such Case the Inhabitants of Eachof the three Counties of this Province should not have less th! an eight Persons to Represent them in Assembly for the Province, And the Inhabitants of each County in the Territories should have as many persons to Represent them in a Distinct assembly for the Territories, as should be Requested by them as aforesaid as by the same Charter Relation being thereunto had, may more fully appeare. Now for as much as the freeholders of the three Counties of this province, To Witt: Philadelphia, Bucks & Chester, according to the Direction of the said Charter, having in their severall Counties mett on the ffirst day of October last, and by a majority of voters Elected us whose names are Subscribed to be their representatives in assembly, as by the returns of the respective Sheriffs may appear, And we making our personal appearance here at Philadelphia, on ye fourteenth Day of the same month according to the Charter, to attend the Governour in Legislacon, & to doe & perform our Duty & Service in Assembly. And the Secretary in Council then declared, That no Representatives were Returned to serve in this Assembly for the Territories, to witt: The Counties of New Castle, Kent and Sussex, Which manifestly proved their Disagreemt to and non acceptance of the sd Charter. Nevertheless It pleased the Governour & Council to indulge them so farr as to Issue forth Writts Impowering them (notwithstanding their said Omission or neglect,) to chuse their Representatives to serve in this Assembly, and most of us then agreed to meet here on the Sixteenth of November instant, in order to receive them & proceed to business. In pursuance of which writts, it seem the sd Inhabitants have Elected and sent up their Delegates, who after several Debates and Conferences about their and our Joynt acting in Assembly, they were pleased to Express their unwillingnesse therevnto, And further declare their Dislike of the said Charter, and refused to agree to Joyn together with us in Legislation by vertue thereof, Which lays a necessity vpon vs humbly to Signify the same under our hands and Seals, Earnestly Requesting That thou wilt be pleased, either by writt or otherwise, to Cause our Number to be Compleat as the said Charter directs, that is to say for each County of this Province four more members and two for the Town of Philadelphia, (now Incorporated,) added unto us, whereby we may be Enabled, with as much Expedicon as may be Considering our present circumstances and Emergency of Affairs to act in Legislacon, and to prevent the great Inconveniency that we conceive will attend the Province by being not i! n a present posture to answer the Exigencies of Government in form of an Assembly, desireing that the number of nine members may be made vp to represent the County of Bucks, and as many for the County of Chester. Joseph Growdon, Samll. Richardson, John Swift, Griffith Jones, William Paxon, Nicholas Pyle, Jer. Langhorn, Andrew Job, 86 David Lloyd, John Bennett, Anthony Morris, John Worrall. I sine with Exception againste ye adionall member more then Eight for bucks and Chester County, by Griffith Jones. Transcribed bu Gale and Lonnie Vanderpol GorLVDPOL@aoil.com Do not go where the path may lead; Go where there is no path and leave a trail. Emerson *Descend from Andrew Job Jr - Elizabeth Vernon, Job(e) Legacy, please send records, old photos, memorials, letters, heirlooms to Freida -- freida49@yahoo.com -- or myself (Ann) -- ann@personainternet.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to JOB-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1293 - Release Date: 2/22/2008 9:21 AM