Martha, I am the person Gwen mentioned in her email to you. I have previously noticed that my father's DNA is a close match to some RICE people. However, it appears there has been a mutation in one marker, and at this point we do not know where the mutation occurred. We should be able to tell shortly, when another family member's test results come back. If the mutation occurred in my father's line, then the "true" DNA markers for my JAMES line are actually THREE off from the RICE family, and not two. However, if this other test comes back as matching my father's, then the mutation occurred elsewhere, and my father has the "true" markers, and would be legimately just a distance of two from the Rice family. Because my JAMES family is of Welsh descent, last names are not a good indication of relationship. My David JAMES was born about 1669 somewhere in Wales. I do not know his father's name with certainty. It is possible that his father did not have the last name of JAMES. Many Welsh did not have surnames as late as the 18th century. So, if your RICE family comes from Wales (RHYS is a Welsh name that sometimes changed into RICE), then we could share a common ancestor 1669 or earlier. For example, if there was a man named "James, son of Rhys" (or "James ap Rhys"), then some of his children may have taken the last name of JAMES, while others took RHYS/RICE. I'm not saying this is fact, I'm just saying it's a possibility. I've seen Welsh siblings taking different last names many times, and that is why it's hard to research Welsh lines, and the DNA test doesn't really help when you get about 300-400 years back in Welsh lines. I am not going to pursue a possible Rice connection with my James family until I know whether my father's line contains a mutated marker or not. We should know soon. Oh, and my JAMES line is not related to Ezekiel and Sherrad James as far as I know. If we are connected, it will likely be back in Wales, not in the USA. Susan --- Original Message --- From: ricesouthern@comcast.net To: JAMES-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Rice & James DNA >Gwen, > Thank you for your comments. In some instances the statistics are not always correct. It certainly would be interesting to have a descendant of Sherrad and Ezekiel James tested as this is a strange coincidence since they did associate with our line. It should be noted the differences are only one step and they occur at DYS458 and DYS449. Both of these loci are known to mutate at a faster than normal rate. >Martha Rice

Here is the latest word on the James DNA test. It looks like William Russell James and David Alan James should be getting their 12 marker results by Oct. 15. That would be this Saturday. Your cousins are David Alan and John Stewart. David is only getting the 12 marker test and the two markers, DYS458 and DYS449, are on the next 13 markers. We will know about those mutations when John Stewart James gets back his 25 marker test in November. 40303 Y-DNA25 Y-DNA13-25 Markers Joe M. James 120 11/12/2005 40303 Y-DNA25 Y-DNA1-12 Markers Joe M. James 120 10/29/2005 42104 Y-DNA12 Y-DNA1-12 Markers William Russell James 119 10/15/2005 42410 Y-DNA12 Y-DNA1-12 Markers David Alan James 119 10/15/2005 42754 Y-DNA12 Y-DNA1-12 Markers Richard Dale James 120 10/29/2005 43728 Y-DNA25 Y-DNA13-25 Markers John Stewart James 121 11/25/2005 43728 Y-DNA25 Y-DNA1-12 Markers John Stewart James 121 11/11/2005 There are four more tests that have been mailed, but have not yet been returned to the FTDNA. I still need to get family lines from two of them. Here are the four tests. I hope the two will send their family lines soon so we can get them posted on the James DNA website. THOMAS JAMES #44840 E-mail:Lucy DeYoung lucydeyoung@isomedia.com E-mail:Thomas James tjames89@juno.com John Thomas James 1923 WV-/Beatrice Fronk Solomon James 1873 KY-1952 WV/Elsie Spaulding John James 1842 Lawrence or Martin Co., KY-??/Rhoda Brewer Ephraim James 1819 Floyd Co. KY-abt1865 Lawrence or Martin Co, KY/Sarah Stepp John James 1798 Orange or Surry Co, NC-abt 1840 Lawrence Co, KY/Milly Vaughan Samuel James abt 1774 MA-1836 Floyd Co, KY/Sarah Charles 44840 Thomas James Test: Y-DNA25 TOMMY HARPER JAMES #44808 E-mail: Tommy James tjames@adcomworldwide.com 44808 Tommy James Test: Y-DNA12 THOMAS MALCOLM JAMES #44611 E-mail: Thomas James tj48@comcast.net Thomas Malcolm James, 1877 Shawnee Co. KS-1958 Multnomah Co. OR/Bertha Smith Thomas Malcolm James, 1839 Erie Co. Ohio-1918 Shawnee Co. KS/Laura Wendell Thomas Malcolm James, 1805 Kiltrisk Parish Wexford Ireland-1887 Erie Co. OH/Francis Hill Thomas Malcolm James, ~1770 Ireland-1830 Erie Co. OH/Jane Taylor 44611 Thomas James Test: Y-DNA37 RICKY MALVERN JAMES #44395 E-mail: Ricky James osagem@msn.com 44395 Ricky James Test: Y-DNA37 Gwen Boyer Bjorkman gwenbj@seanet.com -----Original Message----- From: Susan Rosine [mailto:S.JAMES.CLARK@prodigy.net] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 12:36 PM To: JAMES-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [JAMES-L] Re: Rice & James DNA Martha, I am the person Gwen mentioned in her email to you. I have previously noticed that my father's DNA is a close match to some RICE people. However, it appears there has been a mutation in one marker, and at this point we do not know where the mutation occurred. We should be able to tell shortly, when another family member's test results come back. If the mutation occurred in my father's line, then the "true" DNA markers for my JAMES line are actually THREE off from the RICE family, and not two. However, if this other test comes back as matching my father's, then the mutation occurred elsewhere, and my father has the "true" markers, and would be legimately just a distance of two from the Rice family. Because my JAMES family is of Welsh descent, last names are not a good indication of relationship. My David JAMES was born about 1669 somewhere in Wales. I do not know his father's name with certainty. It is possible that his father did not have the last name of JAMES. Many Welsh did not have surnames as late as the 18th century. So, if your RICE family comes from Wales (RHYS is a Welsh name that sometimes changed into RICE), then we could share a common ancestor 1669 or earlier. For example, if there was a man named "James, son of Rhys" (or "James ap Rhys"), then some of his children may have taken the last name of JAMES, while others took RHYS/RICE. I'm not saying this is fact, I'm just saying it's a possibility. I've seen Welsh siblings taking different last names many times, and that is why it's hard to research Welsh lines, and the DNA test doesn't really help when you get about 300-400 years back in Welsh lines. I am not going to pursue a possible Rice connection with my James family until I know whether my father's line contains a mutated marker or not. We should know soon. Oh, and my JAMES line is not related to Ezekiel and Sherrad James as far as I know. If we are connected, it will likely be back in Wales, not in the USA. Susan --- Original Message --- From: ricesouthern@comcast.net To: JAMES-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Rice & James DNA >Gwen, > Thank you for your comments. In some instances the statistics are not always correct. It certainly would be interesting to have a descendant of Sherrad and Ezekiel James tested as this is a strange coincidence since they did associate with our line. It should be noted the differences are only one step and they occur at DYS458 and DYS449. Both of these loci are known to mutate at a faster than normal rate. >Martha Rice