In a message dated 26/10/99 3:54:14 PM Central Standard Time, philip@pjhood.freeserve.co.uk writes: << Sanderson was born in 1798 in Eccleston by Chorley which lies on the route between the two towns, giving some possible credence to this claim. If anyone would be kind enough to give me any help, advice or suggestions, I would be very grateful. Thanks Philip Hood Tollerton Nottingham. >> My Dear Mr. Hood: First and foremost welcome to the list. Now sir as to your question. While the Highland Scot, like many peoples of this world have many virtues, chastity is not one that was often celebrated, nor would it be the first to spring to mind. Add to this the excitement in a young lassies heart at seeing these "Gentlemen" Barbarians coming down the road with banners high and pipes skirling away, and the bright tartans and bare legs and chests. I ask you sir; What young maiden can be held accountable under such circumstances. It's the Old Baily I should be right chuff wee masel. Dave, PS: I do intend to seem impudent, or imertinent, but you have the last name Hood and you live in Nottingham, pray tell is there any connection between yourself and Loxlie? Also near where I am living now, in Texas, America there is a very large fort called Ft. Hood I wounder if that would be named after a releation of yours.

In a message dated 26/10/99 11:09:55 AM Central Standard Time, mark@highland-family-heritage.co.uk writes: << Hi Bob, Thanks for getting in touch. I am hoping that we can have a good rip-roaring discussion on the '45 as the list develops. There isn't a day passes but I learn something about the Jacobite era and I consider myself a good Hanoverian (Sutherland blood prevails!!). >> Right matie here's your discussion. Our lot were right, your lot were wrong! where is the appology? This argument was made by an expert, ME, please do not attempt this much holier than thou at home, without proper adult supervision. Dave

Mark, This might violate your rules of engagement but I see it as one aspect of the significance of the historic Jacobitical movement in Britain. This might be obvious to you Top Feeding Scots but to this descendant of Bottom Feeding Scots, it just struck me whilst reading Bill’s posting where the term "Christian name" originated. This has always bothered me, since I became conscience: what would a non-Christian have for a first name? In America the term "free thinker" was used in the last century as a euphemism for "atheist." My great great grandfather Pvt. Joseph Warren Lockhart, a smith, is said to have proclaimed he was a "free thinker," who did not believe in slavery and therefore joined the Union Army in Galveston in 1863. Perhaps "Christian name" should be "christening name", and would therefore only apply to "Christians." And, furthermore, I doubt many of our Top Feeding or Bottom Feeding Scot ancestors who were Calvinists considered Jacobites Christian. Therefore, in the Reformed Christian world, we might conclude that Jacobites had no first names, by definition. And Our Jacobitical ancestors certainly did not recognize "chistening" by Presbyterians. In fact, in the Colonies after 1720's, the Church of England priests would declare Presbyterian marriages and christenings void. Presbyterians from "the Scotch Irish Colony" (Ulster Scots), Staunton, Augusta County, Virginia, often would travel to Charlottesville, some thirty miles, to get married or have a child christened and then return to Staunton and repeat the same in the Presbyterian Church. (I am not certain when the Church of Scotland or Congregation of the People started being called the Kirk "Presbyterian?") These Ulster Scots were highly motivated to join George Washington, when the latter and cohorts decided to take on the mightiest army on the globe, the "English Army", and sever ties with Hanoverian Britain. The Hanoverians could have stopped this by allowing gentlemen like, Mr. Washington, into polite English society. After all, who but some sort of Scot, would be fool hearty enough to follow some idiot in such a certain-to-lose enterprise. I'll tell you, it was these same "idiots" and their descendants, who were the only people who took up the Mexican Government's plea for some peoples to move to Tejas de Coahuila, become Roman Catholic (JacobitE?) and destroy the Comanche Amerindians. Although, I feel quite certain that the cause of the Jacobites was far from the vast majority of these far removed Scots. The Comanche Amerindians were the most robust light cavalry to ever live or who will ever live! Who but an amalgam of Gaelic-Saxon Scots, highland and lowland, would be audacious enough to move in between the Mexicans and Comanches. The Mexican Army was the most modern in North America and the Comanche were considered invincible. This created a propinquity of Calvinist and Roman Catholic cultures similar in distaste for each other as occurred in Scotland and Ulster Ireland. These people traveled far to escape social stratification and Mary Stuart’s progeny's Jacobitical concerns. Then these Ulster Scots and progeny, took the land from Mexico and the Comanche, with similar tactics the English Army used on Highland Scots, and created a statified society, which excluded or persecuted Roman Catholics. Albeit, a stratified society within which Anglo-Saxons and eventially Germans and Nordic people had status mobility. Today the descendants of the Mexicans and Amerindians dream of taking this land back from, largely, the descendants of those Ulster Scots, who established a virtual "Scots Colony" between 1822 and 1848, which resulted in "reservationing" the few Amerindians alive, after "holocaustic" wars, which were ultimately generaled and inspired by Ulster Scot descendants Pres. Grant, and Generals Sherman and Sheridan. By 1848 Mexico ceded half her land and Comancheria was "reservationed" by the 1870's. Many Mexicans from Mexico, D.F. area (central Mexico) are convinced that the Nortenos (residents of the northern states of Mexico) who are the most prosperous Mexicans, want to secede and join the United States. This is pure paranoia. However, it is a cultural obsession of Nortenos and Hispanic Americans, to ultimately take back the Southwestern United States. This could augur direct conflict between Mexican and Hispanic Americans and the coming Anglo minority. The Ulster Scot Calvinistic culture -- largely Baptists, Pentecostals, and other fundamentalist Protestants as they converted from the Presbyterian Church, when "they could no longer understand the minister" -- are eager to resort to arms to seal the Mexican Border from the Rio Grande (Rio Bravo in Mexico) to the Pacific. These fundamentalist Churches hold faster to Calvinistic rigor than the modern Methodist and Presbyterians. One aspect of that is lack of tolerance for people of other faiths, ethnic origin, race, etc. There is sentiment among some Anglo Texans to secede from the United States and return to the Republic of Texas. This could mean war with Mexico. Although, we see some parallels with devolution in Scotland, Texas was a separate republic for only ten years. It currently enjoys massive in-migration and immigration of educated people; that is, a major influx of human capital. It is striking how a phenomenal conflict, symbolically started by Knox and Mary Stuart, is found, not just in the borderlands of Scotland and England, but also in the borderlands of Mexico and the Southwestern United States. Bill Stevenson wrote: > Does anyone know of any research which has been made into the occurrence (or > exclusion) of particular christian names in Jacobite famillies in the > various periods of Scottish history? > > ********************************************************************* > Bill Stevenson E-mail: > bste@aub.auc.dk > Incorporated Urban Planner > Research Librarian/Map Librarian Telephone: (+45) 9635 9384 > Aalborg University Library Telefax: (+45) 9815 3844 > Postbox 8200 > DK-9220 AALBORG URL: > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2271 > Denmark > ********************************************************************* > We are drowning in information, while starving for > wisdom > This message was transmitted by using information enriched recyclable > electrons > **********************************************************************

At 07:08 AM 11/13/99 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 12/11/99 6:17:23 PM Central Standard Time, >wlockhart@brooksdata.net writes: > >It was not The English Army, It was the british Army. The Kings Army. Which >included Irish, Welsh Scottish English and Highland, as well as the famed >Immigent Regiments. The reason I act so strongly to this remark is that we >of the United Kingdom but not of English birth, are very quick to agree that >it was the bloody sodding English who dominated India, ripped off the West >Indies, Imerial Bastards everyone of those bloody Limie sodders. He is right you know, at the time the US was not worth the fight in the grand scheme of things. Many on us Americans don't really lose sight of that but it is that we are never taught that in our school history. Great book on the subject is "The First Salute" by I forget who :). Gary

Does anyone know of any research which has been made into the occurrence (or exclusion) of particular christian names in Jacobite famillies in the various periods of Scottish history? ********************************************************************* Bill Stevenson E-mail: bste@aub.auc.dk Incorporated Urban Planner Research Librarian/Map Librarian Telephone: (+45) 9635 9384 Aalborg University Library Telefax: (+45) 9815 3844 Postbox 8200 DK-9220 AALBORG URL: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2271 Denmark ********************************************************************* We are drowning in information, while starving for wisdom This message was transmitted by using information enriched recyclable electrons **********************************************************************

Hello, Can anyone tell me if Sir William Maxwell and his wife Katherine Douglas were Jacobite sympathisers. They lived at Springkell in south east Dumfriesshire during the middle period of the 18th century. Regards, -- Peter Kinghorn Northumberland

Hi Mark, Thanks for your reply. I have in fact checked out John Anderson of Bourtie and there is no apparent link with my John Anderson who was born in Kemnay parish. There were of course many thousands of Jacobite supporters who were never listed in military records and he must have been one of them. His University colleague Thomas Ruddiman was a publisher and librarian and we only know about his Jacobite sympathies through his writings. Also, the links between the Episcopal church and the Jacobite movement were very close. John Anderson's posting from London where he was a schoolmaster to the Caribbean in 1719 could easily have been a career move rather than an escape from the 1715 rebellion. He did however meet up with many Jacobite deportees and escapees in the Caribbean and if anyone reading this listing finds that their researches point in that direction I would be very willing to help. Regards, Bruce Manson PS Anderson's money was left in perpetuity and whilst the capital was borrowed several times over after 1745 to restore a number of attainted estates, the interest is still used today both by his descendants and the church throughout Scotland. A number of lines of inheritance (particularly of the Stevens family) remain unclaimed and awaiting a diligent genealogist! In message <001401bf27b9$978a00a0$9d3d883e@default>, Mark Sutherland- Fisher <mark@highland-family-heritage.co.uk> writes >Hi Bruce and troops, >This is a real poser. I have consulted my book of words and your man is not >shown as a Jacobite. HOWEVER in the '15 List is an Alexander Anderson from >Aberdeen who died in 1728 and was son of Captain John Anderson of Bourtie. I >don't know anything about the Andersons but since Captain John isn't listed >in the '15 Muster Rolls, could he be your man or can another list member >eliminate him from the picture. Remember it was common for clergymen to have >been soldiers in an earlier "life", often the horror of hand to hand combat >and seeing mens' bodies blown to bits on the battlefield having pushed them >towards a career in the church after leaving the army. Only a thought. >Regards to all, >Mark >Genealogist: Clan Sutherland >Co-genealogist: Clan Mackenzie >see my web-site: http://www.highland-family-heritage.co.uk >Professional Genealogist specialising in Highland Research and the 18th >century >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bruce Manson <bruce@brucemanson.demon.co.uk> >To: <JACOBITES-D-request@rootsweb.com> >Sent: 04 November 1999 18:28 >Subject: JohnAnderson of St Kitts > -- Bruce Manson

Hi William or is it Bill! My own view has always tended to the Norman argument for the Lockharts, rather than Saxon and yes many Normans were Flemish, not Belgian, same geographical area, different ethnic origins. The greatest "Norman" influence in Scotland was in the first half of the 12th century as a result of Malcolm III Canmore who married the shipwrecked Princess Margaret Atheling, one of the last surviving members of the Saxon Royal Family and their sons, especially the youngest, David, one of Scotland's greatest kings. First Malcolm and then David encouraged their Norman cousins and friends to move up to Scotland to help keep down the supporters of Malcolm's sons from his first marriage Ingebiorg who was descended from the Norwegian Royal House which still rules large parts of northern and western Scotland. Anyway the Lockharts first surface in Scotland in Ayrshire and Lanarkshire in the 12th century, slap bang in the middle of that period. However, another source suggests it is a Gaelic name from "luchairt", meaning castle or palace, but since that was the first thing Norman nobles did on arrival, it may be the same story. However without meaning to offend you, I did set this list up to discuss the Jacobite period, so if you wish to discuss this further with me, please do so off-list. Regards to all, Mark Genealogist: Clan Sutherland Co-genealogist: Clan Mackenzie see my web-site: http://www.highland-family-heritage.co.uk Professional Genealogist specialising in Highland Research and the 18th century ----- Original Message ----- From: W.E. Lockhart III <elockhartosiris@yahoo.com> To: Mark Sutherland-Fisher <mark@highland-family-heritage.co.uk>; <wlockhart@brooksdata.net> Cc: <JACOBITES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 07 November 1999 05:30 Subject: Re: Edgar : English Jacobite /Regular army recruits > Mark, > much to the chagrin of my fellow Lockharts, my > idea that Locard was indeed originally a Norman > name, probably originating in today's Belgian. > This contradicts Sir Simon McDonald-Lockhart's > claim that the Locards were Saxons fleeing the > Normans. He speculates that they founded > Lockerbie (Locard Byg) before moving north to > Ayleshire and Lanarkshire. > Then as the story goes Sir Symon Locard, or > heirs, changed the name to Lockheart after > returning with the key to the box with the > Bruce's heart, circa 1330 ACE. It would make > since that they would get on the Braveheart > bandwagon, even though some claim Sir Symon was a > betrayer of William Wallace. However, I cannot > substantiate this claim. > The Lockhart spelling and other cognates like > Lockart, etc. first were seen in writing in the > 1500's, from the best information I have. > Do you agree with the Norman theory? > > William Edgar Lockhart III > > ps aint no doubt that the "William" was a Norman > name, no? > > --- Mark Sutherland-Fisher > <mark@highland-family-heritage.co.uk> wrote: > > Hi folks, > > I would consider Edgar to be an English > > surname, after the Saxon king, > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com >

Thanks Dave........I needed that. A lost American in Bucharest with a soul so Highland and a name that is inexplicably associated with a Gaelic variant for wolf.....I need to know some "home boys" have soul too...Highland or otherwise...and Hope..and I hope to get home soon..Just wish I knew where it was. For Mark: Yep..I'm still here...Maybe Rosshire in the spring..never did like winter. Blame it on the lady. La Revedere; Rex H. McTyeire (Madadh Alladh) Bucharest, Romania <rexbo@customers.digiro.net> <rexbo@netscape.net>

In a message dated 31/10/99 7:02:00 AM Central Standard Time, wlockhart@brooksdata.net writes: << Mark, As a Scottish descendant in the "Texas Colony", I have to admit we do deserve the horrible reputation in capital punishment and the expenditures on prisons now exceeds higher education. <MacSnipped Stuff> I was going to answer this in private, but I think I can destroy a wee Scottish myth here. First off Howdy Partner. Now draw you dirty pole cat, and I ain't ah smilin when I says it.( only found out last year a pole cat and a skunk are the same thing). For myself, and for most of the other wee boys and girls who grew up in post war Scotland, Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, and my personal favorite Mr. Tonto and Mr, Lone Ranger had a much greater influence on our lives than William Wallace, The Bruce or Even Queen Elizabeth or Bonnie Prince Chairly combined. I knew more about Dodge and Wyatt Earp than I ever knew about James the I. I never had to study the cowboys, it came natural. It took the strap to get me to learn about the Kings. Ah the Saturday Matinee at the La Scala in Inverness. We ran around with feathers and guns and cowboy hats, not kilts and claymoores etc. (Well the odd stick, properly held, did slaughter the English Army some days.) As Uncle Murdoch used to say in the Gaelic "We are all more similar than we are different," and he should know, he was so old God came to him for advice. Dave

Hi John, According to my records, he was transported on 21st April 1716, just as you say. At present, without going and looking at all my books, I can't tell you a great deal about Preston. The English Jacobites, supported by a force of Scottish Jacobites, had taken the town of Preston and occupied it. The Scottish campaign ended after the indecisive battle at Sheriffmuir on 13th November 1715, when the Earl of Mar's Scottish Jacobite force clashed in little more than a day long skirmish with the Royal Army led by the Duke of Argyll. Both armies had minor victories during the day and in the evening, Mar's army retreated north and Argyll's returned to Stirling Castle. Almost at the same time, another Government army in England successfully completed the siege of Preston, in consequence of which your ancestor John MacKinnon was captured and transported. Regards, Mark Genealogist: Clan Sutherland Co-genealogist: Clan Mackenzie see my web-site: http://www.highland-family-heritage.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Doris Winskie <dwinskie@triax.com> To: <JACOBITES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 30 October 1999 20:31 Subject: Preston > My ancestor, John (or Joseph) MacKintosh was > captured at Preston and was > transported to Charles Town, South Carolina on the > ship, Wakefield in > 1716. He married Mary (Snipes) Perryman, widow, 5 > Oct 1727 and died in > 1731. Request a description of the forces and > action at Preston. > John Winskie > Chewelah, WA > > >

Hi folks, Just wanted to record the appreciation of the Jacobite list to Iain for coming up trumps as I knew he would. Can I also mention Dave, alias ScotHeritage, formerly The Exile. Dave is a born Highlander, now living in "exile" who always contributes well to topics, but sometimes he and I disagree about interpretation and that's healthy. It's just that Dave usually reprints the sender's message and interlines his comments or expresses his views. It may look as though he is simply re-posting the original author's message, but if you read it carefully, which I hope you will do, he often adds important, though usually controversial views. For example on this topic HE raised the fact that some countries still apply the death sentence, NOT ME. Dave is perfectly entitles to state such a view and as Listowner of Jacobites I wish to encourage such free expressions,because history would be very dull if we all share the same views. After this posting can I ask my Jacobite members not to keep re-sending this set of postings as I only wished to "stray" on to the list of our friends in britregiments because the particular point Paul raised, in my view was of interest to that list as well and of course I was seeking Iain's input. To all our friends in britregiments I say thanks for your encouragement and hard work on that list and to my own members in Jacobites I say keep up the good work, our new list seems to have got off to a flying start and the more, the merrier. Mark Genealogist: Clan Sutherland Co-genealogist: Clan Mackenzie see my web-site: http://www.highland-family-heritage.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: Iain Kerr <iainkerr@clara.net> To: Mark Sutherland-Fisher <mark@highland-family-heritage.co.uk> Cc: <JACOBITES-L@rootsweb.com>; Paul Dwerryhouse <Paul.Dwerryhouse@tesco.net>; <britregiments@egroups.com> Sent: 30 October 1999 04:07 Subject: [britregiments] Re: Edgar : English Jacobite /Regular armyrecruits > At 00:08 29/10/99 , Mark Sutherland-Fisher wrote: > >Hi Paul and list and friends in the Brit Regiment list, > >I am no expert on all matters Jacobite or anything like it. However as I > >said, the one place they successfully recruited in England during the > >march to Derby, was in Lancashire, after they captured Carlisle. These > >recruits were assumed into the Manchester Regiment commanded by the brave, > >(but as history proved naive or foolish) Col. Francis Townley. It also > >"sucked up" the stragglers and deserters from the Regular army. > >Unfortunately Townley volunteered his regiment to hold Carlisle during the > >retreat and when he surrendered, he and his men were treated as traitors, > >rather than as prisoners-of-war. He and most of his Captains were among > >the last men in Britain to suffer the dreadful punishment of being hung, > >cut down just before they were dead, having their entrails removed while > >they were alive and then if they hadn't died with shock or loss of blood, > >watched as the axeman put them out of their misery. This was the execution > >William Wallace faced 450 years earlier. We weren't that terribly much > >more civilised almost half a millennium later!! > >Anyway I am not sure about all the sources of Muster Rolls in England and > >hopefully Iain Kerr will see this posting and give a far more eloquent > >answer than I ever can. Iain as you read this along with all the other > >Brit Regiment "troops", don't blush because you will probably forget more > >about British military history than most of the rest of us will ever learn. > > Mark, > > Flattery will get you anything, well almost! And thanks for that jolly > snapshot of the campaign of 1745-46! > > The Muster Rolls of the British Army are held in the Public record Office, > Kew, Surrey. The Pay Lists and Muster Rolls were a monthly summary > submitted quarterly to the War Office by each regiment. They offer the > means of establishing the soldier's date of enlistment, his movements > throughout the world and his date of discharge or death. The first entry > may show his age on enlistment, as well as the place where he enlisted. An > entry on the form 'men becoming non-effective', sometimes found at the end > of each quarter's muster, shows the birthplace, trade and date of > enlistment of any soldier discharged or dying during the quarter. > > From about 1868 to about 1883, at the end of each muster (or the beginning > for regiments stationed in India), may be found a marriage roll, which > lists wives and children for whom married quarters were provided - who were > "on the strength". (Note that there was only a limited scale of official > married quarters. Some soldiers managed to have their wives and families > accompany them as "camp followers".) > > The main series of muster books and pay lists are arranged by regiment and > are bound in volumes covering a period of twelve months. They were compiled > monthly. They are in the following separate classes for: > > Unit Dates Class reference > Artillery 1708-1878 WO 10 > Engineers 1816-1878 WO 11 > General 1732-1878 WO 12 > Militia and Volunteers 1780-1878 WO 13 > New series 1878-1898 WO 16 > Scutari Depot 1854-1856 WO 14 > Foreign Legions 1854-1856 WO 15 > > WO 12 includes household troops, cavalry, Foot Guards, regular infantry, > special regiments and corps, colonial troops, various foreign legions and > regiments, and regimental, brigade and other depots. WO 14 and WO 15 relate > to troops engaged in the Crimean War. > > Yours aye, Iain > In Windsor, Berkshire > > Web Page at: http://home.clara.net/iainkerr/index.htm > Rootsweb Sponsor Listowner for the KERR; McTURK and SOUTHON lists. > Maintainer of the Ayrshire Surnames Database at: > http://home.clara.net/iainkerr/genuki/AYR/SID/indexsid.htm > Maintainer of the GENUKI Ayrshire pages at: > http://home.clara.net/iainkerr/genuki/AYR/index.htm > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Imagine a credit card with a 0% Intro APR and Instant Approval. > It seems impossible, but it's not. Visit GetSmart.com's Credit Card > Finder and click on instant approval cards right now at > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1272 > > > Check out the Millennial Archive at > http://www.millennial-archive.com/index.html?AffiliateID=MA011 > > >

I just recently joined this site . My husband James Coats is a direct descendant of Ludovic Grant , exiled to the colonies following the Jacobite Rebellion in 1715 . Do any of you have any information on him and his family and the part he played in that particular rebellion ?. I would also like to find out any particulars on the Lord or Maxwell who was sentenced to death by beheading to the Tower of London for the same rebellion . This maxwell escaped from ,the Tower disguised as his wife's maid. He reportedly spent the rest of his life in exile in Italy . Does anyone have any information on his descendants and their migration patterns. Enjoy reading the information that becomes available on this site. Juanell Maxwell Coats JACOBITES-D-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > Subject: > > JACOBITES-D Digest Volume 99 : Issue 6 > > Today's Topics: > #1 Preston [Doris Winskie <dwinskie@triax.com>] > #2 Battle of Culloden ["Bruce Stewart" <thebruce@sprintma] > #3 Re: ["jedp" <jedp@erols.com>] > #4 Re: Perth [ScotHeritage@aol.com] > #5 Re: Edgar : English Jacobite /Regu [ScotHeritage@aol.com] > #6 Re: Culloden and the 45 [ScotHeritage@aol.com] > #7 Re: Edgar : English Jacobite /Regu [William Lockhart <wlockhart@brooks] > #8 Re: Perth [William Lockhart <wlockhart@brooks] > > Administrivia: > To unsubscribe from JACOBITES-D, send a message to > > JACOBITES-D-request@rootsweb.com > > that contains in the body of the message the command > > unsubscribe > > and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software > requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. > > To contact the JACOBITES-D list administrator, send mail to > JACOBITES-admin@rootsweb.com. > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Preston > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:31:34 -0700 > From: Doris Winskie <dwinskie@triax.com> > To: JACOBITES-L@rootsweb.com > > My ancestor, John (or Joseph) MacKintosh was > captured at Preston and was > transported to Charles Town, South Carolina on the > ship, Wakefield in > 1716. He married Mary (Snipes) Perryman, widow, 5 > Oct 1727 and died in > 1731. Request a description of the forces and > action at Preston. > John Winskie > Chewelah, WA > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Battle of Culloden > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 14:02:10 -0700 > From: "Bruce Stewart" <thebruce@sprintmail.com> > To: JACOBITES-L@rootsweb.com > > Hi listers, > > I am looking for information for the men from Atholl in this last battle. > Who went and who came back? Specifically those from Kynachan, Foss and > Garth. Where can I find info for this area & time? > > Love/Peace > > Bruce M Stewart > thebruce@sprintmail.com > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:44:57 -0400 > From: "jedp" <jedp@erols.com> > To: JACOBITES-L@rootsweb.com > > unsubscribe! > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: Perth > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 06:12:51 EST > From: ScotHeritage@aol.com > To: JACOBITES-L@rootsweb.com > > In a message dated 28/10/99 1:11:21 PM Central Standard Time, dsaban@trib.com > writes: > > << We are researching a couple who were married in 1739 in Perth. His name > was > John Sabine, a soldier of this parish, and Ann Deer, of this parish. > > Since he was listed as soldier, we are presuming he was of the regular army > such as the Black Watch. Any ideas on how to trace him and what happened to > him? > > The 42nd was in Flanders at that time. Try the regimental museum in Perth, or > the Scottish Museum in Edinburgh. > > I also have a unique situation that brings up the subject of the Highland > migration south. My grandmother was a Meikle, and the family immigrated to > the USA around 1875. I have them traced in Lanark, technically a lowland > county. The more I learn about Lanark the more I realize how it became the > melting pot of > Scotland. My grandmother spoke Gaelic as well as English, and had in her > possession a set of bagpipes and a blue/green tartan (well worn). It has > puzzled me how a Lanark family would be speaking Gaelic and have such things > as bagpipes and tartans. > > Lanark was the sight chosen by "The Utopian Socialists", to attempt to > revolutionize society and was the most advance area to live in at the period. > (Beginning of Industrial Revolution.) Each worker had a flat, (apartment), > each child went to school, each family had medical coverage, and it was all > supplied by the company. Perhaps the best known of the group to America is > Adam Smith, the father of modern economics, and probably capitalism as we > know it. (How to anger an Englishman; Scotland the Birth Place of Adam Smith, > England the grave of Karl Marks hehhe) Why Gaels in the area. 1; sheep > taking over the land, 2: work in the South. The tenements filled very fast > with Highlanders and Islanders who were being driven from the land. Glasgow > had Gaelic congregation the churches, the Highland regiments found a right > haven of sympathy when the began to mutiny, and there was a great feeling of > Republicanism in the area at the time. (Not a political Party, a government > without a King.) There is a place called the Highlandman's Umbrella in > Glasgow, and it is an arch where the Gaels would gather to exchange news and > stories and just to socializes and find out what was going on at home. > Hope this helps a little bit. > > We recently took the Meikle line back to a > marriage in Perth in 1750 between James Meikle, of Lesmahagow and Janet > Taylor of Perth. Janet was the daughter of George Taylor and Janet > Stirling. > > Would like some suggestions on where to go from here to uncover the Gaelic > in this family. > > Don and Mary in Wyoming > > > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: Edgar : English Jacobite /Regular army recruits > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 06:21:15 EST > From: ScotHeritage@aol.com > To: JACOBITES-L@rootsweb.com > > In a message dated 28/10/99 5:55:56 PM Central Standard Time, > mark@highland-family-heritage.co.uk writes: > > << Hi Paul and list and friends in the Brit Regiment list, > I am no expert on all matters Jacobite or anything like it. However as I > said, the one place they successfully recruited in England during the march > to Derby, was in Lancashire, after they captured Carlisle. These recruits > were assumed into the Manchester Regiment commanded by the brave, (but as > history proved naive or foolish) Col. Francis Townley. > > If I am not mistaken, the greatest strength of The Manchester Group was never > more than 200. > > It also "sucked up" the stragglers and deserters from the Regular army. > Unfortunately Townley volunteered his regiment to hold Carlisle during the > retreat and when he surrendered, he and his men were treated as traitors, > rather than as > prisoners-of-war. He and most of his Captains were among the last men in > Britain to suffer the dreadful punishment of being hung, cut down just > before they were dead, having their entrails removed while they were alive > and then if they hadn't died with shock or loss of blood, watched as the > axeman put them out of their misery. This was the execution William Wallace > faced 450 years earlier. We weren't that terribly much more civilised almost > half a millennium later!! > > Many places still are not. Many of the less civilized countries still have > the death penalty. > > Anyway I am not sure about all the sources of Muster Rolls in England and > hopefully Iain Kerr will see this posting and give a far more eloquent > answer than I ever can. > > It will be very interesting to see if any record was kept. The English King > and his officers were not know for their kindness, or mercy in this campaign. > > Iain as you read this along with all the other Brit > Regiment "troops", don't blush because you will probably forget more about > British military history than most of the rest of us will ever learn. > Regards to all from the Jacobite list. > Mark > Genealogist: Clan Sutherland > Co-genealogist: Clan Mackenzie > see my web-site: http://www.highland-family-heritage.co.uk > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: Culloden and the 45 > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 06:33:11 EST > From: ScotHeritage@aol.com > To: JACOBITES-L@rootsweb.com > > As hard as it is to say I feel I must comment on the romantic image of the > Jacobyte. Perhaps I should explain that I grew up a Jacobyte and I am still a > "HARD CORE NATIONALIST." Just so there is no mistake in case of any slant in > what I am about to write. My first language is/was Gaelic. I grew up running > over the heather hills of the North West Coast in a house where a peat fire > burned and our history was still taught over the fire at night in the Gaelic > and the bible was read every day in the Gaelic. Later as a wee boy in > Inverness there was many a day we cycled out to Culloden to play at > rebellion. There was a deep pride and respect when we saw the massed graves > etc. There were signs of rebellion in every inch of the town, (a lot of it > has been knocked down in the recent past). OK so you will agree that you > cannot get much more Highland than me, at least by the stereotypes. > > The best thing that ever happened to Scotland was the fall of the Stuart's > and the tragic loss at Culloden. B.P.C. would have reigned from London same > as all the other Stuart's. Culloden was more a civil war than a war of > Independence, (Last time I shall admit to this). As with most nations it was > the economy that cause changes. We went to war for money and power, we built > an empire for money and power, and we migrated because of money and power, > and all the pipes and all the tartan wrapped heather in the world will not > change that reality. Now back to the romance it is a much easier pill to > swallow. > Dave > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: Edgar : English Jacobite /Regular army recruits > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 08:01:41 -0500 > From: William Lockhart <wlockhart@brooksdata.net> > To: JACOBITES-L@rootsweb.com > > Mark, > As a Scottish descendant in the "Texas Colony", I > have to admit we do deserve the horrible > reputation in capital punishment and the > expenditures on prisons now exceeds higher education. > It seems that when a people emigrate, they bring > with them the worst of the original culture. The > French in Canada and Louisiana for instance and > the Ulster Scots here in Texas. I imagine only > Pennsylvania out does Texas is Scottish surnames, > even on a per capita basis. > The Ku Klux Klan is an Ulster Scot institution > that brings shame all over this land. Our greatest > challenge is the prevention of a military coup de > e'tat in the United States, and we could see a > horrible worldwide holocaust. > > > > treated as traitors, > > rather than as > > prisoners-of-war. He and most of his Captains were among the last men in > > Britain to suffer the dreadful punishment of being hung, cut down just > > before they were dead, having their entrails removed while they were alive > > and then if they hadn't died with shock or loss of blood, watched as the > > axeman put them out of their misery. This was the execution William Wallace > > faced 450 years earlier. We weren't that terribly much more civilised almost > > half a millennium later!! > > > > Many places still are not. Many of the less civilized countries still have > > the death penalty. > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: Perth > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 08:07:33 -0500 > From: William Lockhart <wlockhart@brooksdata.net> > To: JACOBITES-L@rootsweb.com > > Many Utopian socialist moved to PA and Ohio. And a > few colonies moved on the Texas Panhandle. Swisher > County, is very Celtish and votes liberal, while > the Panhandle is the most conservation part of Texas. > These people established Co-Ops to share > machinery, all farmer would help each other out at > harvest time, etc. > The Tulia Herald was one of the really great > American small town newspapers. Tulia is the > county seat. > > ScotHeritage@aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 28/10/99 1:11:21 PM Central Standard Time, dsaban@trib.com > > writes: > > > > << We are researching a couple who were married in 1739 in Perth. His name > > was > > John Sabine, a soldier of this parish, and Ann Deer, of this parish. > > > > Since he was listed as soldier, we are presuming he was of the regular army > > such as the Black Watch. Any ideas on how to trace him and what happened to > > him? > > > > The 42nd was in Flanders at that time. Try the regimental museum in Perth, or > > the Scottish Museum in Edinburgh. > > > > I also have a unique situation that brings up the subject of the Highland > > migration south. My grandmother was a Meikle, and the family immigrated to > > the USA around 1875. I have them traced in Lanark, technically a lowland > > county. The more I learn about Lanark the more I realize how it became the > > melting pot of > > Scotland. My grandmother spoke Gaelic as well as English, and had in her > > possession a set of bagpipes and a blue/green tartan (well worn). It has > > puzzled me how a Lanark family would be speaking Gaelic and have such things > > as bagpipes and tartans. > > > > Lanark was the sight chosen by "The Utopian Socialists", to attempt to > > revolutionize society and was the most advance area to live in at the period. > > (Beginning of Industrial Revolution.) Each worker had a flat, (apartment), > > each child went to school, each family had medical coverage, and it was all > > supplied by the company. Perhaps the best known of the group to America is > > Adam Smith, the father of modern economics, and probably capitalism as we > > know it. (How to anger an Englishman; Scotland the Birth Place of Adam Smith, > > England the grave of Karl Marks hehhe) Why Gaels in the area. 1; sheep > > taking over the land, 2: work in the South. The tenements filled very fast > > with Highlanders and Islanders who were being driven from the land. Glasgow > > had Gaelic congregation the churches, the Highland regiments found a right > > haven of sympathy when the began to mutiny, and there was a great feeling of > > Republicanism in the area at the time. (Not a political Party, a government > > without a King.) There is a place called the Highlandman's Umbrella in > > Glasgow, and it is an arch where the Gaels would gather to exchange news and > > stories and just to socializes and find out what was going on at home. > > Hope this helps a little bit. > > > > We recently took the Meikle line back to a > > marriage in Perth in 1750 between James Meikle, of Lesmahagow and Janet > > Taylor of Perth. Janet was the daughter of George Taylor and Janet > > Stirling. > > > > Would like some suggestions on where to go from here to uncover the Gaelic > > in this family. > > > > Don and Mary in Wyoming > > > >

Hi folks, I would consider Edgar to be an English surname, after the Saxon king, Edgar who reigned from 958 to 975 AD. However the name does appear in Scotland in Nithsdale which is Border country in the 12th century, probably an Englishman coming north to Scotland as indeed the remains of much of the Saxon Royal family and their court did, after Queen Margaret Atheling became the second wife of Malcolm III Canmore of Scotland. regards, Mark Genealogist: Clan Sutherland Co-genealogist: Clan Mackenzie see my web-site: http://www.highland-family-heritage.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: William Lockhart <wlockhart@brooksdata.net> To: Mark Sutherland-Fisher <mark@highland-family-heritage.co.uk> Cc: <JACOBITES-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 29 October 1999 06:06 Subject: Re: Edgar : English Jacobite /Regular army recruits > Is "Edgar" a Scottish origin surname" > > William Edgar Lockhart III >

Many Utopian socialist moved to PA and Ohio. And a few colonies moved on the Texas Panhandle. Swisher County, is very Celtish and votes liberal, while the Panhandle is the most conservation part of Texas. These people established Co-Ops to share machinery, all farmer would help each other out at harvest time, etc. The Tulia Herald was one of the really great American small town newspapers. Tulia is the county seat. ScotHeritage@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 28/10/99 1:11:21 PM Central Standard Time, dsaban@trib.com > writes: > > << We are researching a couple who were married in 1739 in Perth. His name > was > John Sabine, a soldier of this parish, and Ann Deer, of this parish. > > Since he was listed as soldier, we are presuming he was of the regular army > such as the Black Watch. Any ideas on how to trace him and what happened to > him? > > The 42nd was in Flanders at that time. Try the regimental museum in Perth, or > the Scottish Museum in Edinburgh. > > I also have a unique situation that brings up the subject of the Highland > migration south. My grandmother was a Meikle, and the family immigrated to > the USA around 1875. I have them traced in Lanark, technically a lowland > county. The more I learn about Lanark the more I realize how it became the > melting pot of > Scotland. My grandmother spoke Gaelic as well as English, and had in her > possession a set of bagpipes and a blue/green tartan (well worn). It has > puzzled me how a Lanark family would be speaking Gaelic and have such things > as bagpipes and tartans. > > Lanark was the sight chosen by "The Utopian Socialists", to attempt to > revolutionize society and was the most advance area to live in at the period. > (Beginning of Industrial Revolution.) Each worker had a flat, (apartment), > each child went to school, each family had medical coverage, and it was all > supplied by the company. Perhaps the best known of the group to America is > Adam Smith, the father of modern economics, and probably capitalism as we > know it. (How to anger an Englishman; Scotland the Birth Place of Adam Smith, > England the grave of Karl Marks hehhe) Why Gaels in the area. 1; sheep > taking over the land, 2: work in the South. The tenements filled very fast > with Highlanders and Islanders who were being driven from the land. Glasgow > had Gaelic congregation the churches, the Highland regiments found a right > haven of sympathy when the began to mutiny, and there was a great feeling of > Republicanism in the area at the time. (Not a political Party, a government > without a King.) There is a place called the Highlandman's Umbrella in > Glasgow, and it is an arch where the Gaels would gather to exchange news and > stories and just to socializes and find out what was going on at home. > Hope this helps a little bit. > > We recently took the Meikle line back to a > marriage in Perth in 1750 between James Meikle, of Lesmahagow and Janet > Taylor of Perth. Janet was the daughter of George Taylor and Janet > Stirling. > > Would like some suggestions on where to go from here to uncover the Gaelic > in this family. > > Don and Mary in Wyoming > >

Mark, As a Scottish descendant in the "Texas Colony", I have to admit we do deserve the horrible reputation in capital punishment and the expenditures on prisons now exceeds higher education. It seems that when a people emigrate, they bring with them the worst of the original culture. The French in Canada and Louisiana for instance and the Ulster Scots here in Texas. I imagine only Pennsylvania out does Texas is Scottish surnames, even on a per capita basis. The Ku Klux Klan is an Ulster Scot institution that brings shame all over this land. Our greatest challenge is the prevention of a military coup de e'tat in the United States, and we could see a horrible worldwide holocaust. > treated as traitors, > rather than as > prisoners-of-war. He and most of his Captains were among the last men in > Britain to suffer the dreadful punishment of being hung, cut down just > before they were dead, having their entrails removed while they were alive > and then if they hadn't died with shock or loss of blood, watched as the > axeman put them out of their misery. This was the execution William Wallace > faced 450 years earlier. We weren't that terribly much more civilised almost > half a millennium later!! > > Many places still are not. Many of the less civilized countries still have > the death penalty.

As hard as it is to say I feel I must comment on the romantic image of the Jacobyte. Perhaps I should explain that I grew up a Jacobyte and I am still a "HARD CORE NATIONALIST." Just so there is no mistake in case of any slant in what I am about to write. My first language is/was Gaelic. I grew up running over the heather hills of the North West Coast in a house where a peat fire burned and our history was still taught over the fire at night in the Gaelic and the bible was read every day in the Gaelic. Later as a wee boy in Inverness there was many a day we cycled out to Culloden to play at rebellion. There was a deep pride and respect when we saw the massed graves etc. There were signs of rebellion in every inch of the town, (a lot of it has been knocked down in the recent past). OK so you will agree that you cannot get much more Highland than me, at least by the stereotypes. The best thing that ever happened to Scotland was the fall of the Stuart's and the tragic loss at Culloden. B.P.C. would have reigned from London same as all the other Stuart's. Culloden was more a civil war than a war of Independence, (Last time I shall admit to this). As with most nations it was the economy that cause changes. We went to war for money and power, we built an empire for money and power, and we migrated because of money and power, and all the pipes and all the tartan wrapped heather in the world will not change that reality. Now back to the romance it is a much easier pill to swallow. Dave

In a message dated 28/10/99 5:55:56 PM Central Standard Time, mark@highland-family-heritage.co.uk writes: << Hi Paul and list and friends in the Brit Regiment list, I am no expert on all matters Jacobite or anything like it. However as I said, the one place they successfully recruited in England during the march to Derby, was in Lancashire, after they captured Carlisle. These recruits were assumed into the Manchester Regiment commanded by the brave, (but as history proved naive or foolish) Col. Francis Townley. If I am not mistaken, the greatest strength of The Manchester Group was never more than 200. It also "sucked up" the stragglers and deserters from the Regular army. Unfortunately Townley volunteered his regiment to hold Carlisle during the retreat and when he surrendered, he and his men were treated as traitors, rather than as prisoners-of-war. He and most of his Captains were among the last men in Britain to suffer the dreadful punishment of being hung, cut down just before they were dead, having their entrails removed while they were alive and then if they hadn't died with shock or loss of blood, watched as the axeman put them out of their misery. This was the execution William Wallace faced 450 years earlier. We weren't that terribly much more civilised almost half a millennium later!! Many places still are not. Many of the less civilized countries still have the death penalty. Anyway I am not sure about all the sources of Muster Rolls in England and hopefully Iain Kerr will see this posting and give a far more eloquent answer than I ever can. It will be very interesting to see if any record was kept. The English King and his officers were not know for their kindness, or mercy in this campaign. Iain as you read this along with all the other Brit Regiment "troops", don't blush because you will probably forget more about British military history than most of the rest of us will ever learn. Regards to all from the Jacobite list. Mark Genealogist: Clan Sutherland Co-genealogist: Clan Mackenzie see my web-site: http://www.highland-family-heritage.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- >>

In a message dated 28/10/99 1:11:21 PM Central Standard Time, dsaban@trib.com writes: << We are researching a couple who were married in 1739 in Perth. His name was John Sabine, a soldier of this parish, and Ann Deer, of this parish. Since he was listed as soldier, we are presuming he was of the regular army such as the Black Watch. Any ideas on how to trace him and what happened to him? The 42nd was in Flanders at that time. Try the regimental museum in Perth, or the Scottish Museum in Edinburgh. I also have a unique situation that brings up the subject of the Highland migration south. My grandmother was a Meikle, and the family immigrated to the USA around 1875. I have them traced in Lanark, technically a lowland county. The more I learn about Lanark the more I realize how it became the melting pot of Scotland. My grandmother spoke Gaelic as well as English, and had in her possession a set of bagpipes and a blue/green tartan (well worn). It has puzzled me how a Lanark family would be speaking Gaelic and have such things as bagpipes and tartans. Lanark was the sight chosen by "The Utopian Socialists", to attempt to revolutionize society and was the most advance area to live in at the period. (Beginning of Industrial Revolution.) Each worker had a flat, (apartment), each child went to school, each family had medical coverage, and it was all supplied by the company. Perhaps the best known of the group to America is Adam Smith, the father of modern economics, and probably capitalism as we know it. (How to anger an Englishman; Scotland the Birth Place of Adam Smith, England the grave of Karl Marks hehhe) Why Gaels in the area. 1; sheep taking over the land, 2: work in the South. The tenements filled very fast with Highlanders and Islanders who were being driven from the land. Glasgow had Gaelic congregation the churches, the Highland regiments found a right haven of sympathy when the began to mutiny, and there was a great feeling of Republicanism in the area at the time. (Not a political Party, a government without a King.) There is a place called the Highlandman's Umbrella in Glasgow, and it is an arch where the Gaels would gather to exchange news and stories and just to socializes and find out what was going on at home. Hope this helps a little bit. We recently took the Meikle line back to a marriage in Perth in 1750 between James Meikle, of Lesmahagow and Janet Taylor of Perth. Janet was the daughter of George Taylor and Janet Stirling. Would like some suggestions on where to go from here to uncover the Gaelic in this family. Don and Mary in Wyoming

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