Sandi: You are so right about everything that you said regarding the white vs. Indian subject especially regarding the intermarriage thing. I have suspected for quite some time that my family intermarried in colonial times with a New England band, and succeeding generations married indigenous folks until the 1840's. So in my case I don't believe that it was to get the land necessarily. There is a photo of my GGGgrandfather that shows him with a Mohawk hairstyle and his ears have been pierced. He appears to have blue eyes and lighter skin, so you know that intermarriages happened before the land rush. In the era of the Revolution, the victor was offering land bounty rights to those who were patriotic to the cause. This included land for indigenous people who cooperated. I am sure they viewed it as rather ridiculous since the land belonged to them to begin with. Before the Revolution, the Shawnee had intermarried so much with the French, that they had the lightest skin and often blue eyes - of any tribe in the 1750's. This GGGrandfather left N.Y. after the death of his father who had a good piece of land there. We don't know why all the children left, but most of them did. The boys inherited the land, but it appears that it was sold and they went on to Ohio around 1818. They just keep moving but we don't know why, from one place to another. I suspect that it was because the land they secured was somehow removed from them. Still tryng to find out more, but the historical record is not great about this. Sue

Deannie has a point for sure.

Just read through all these messages and noticed some of you are confused about what is Indian vs. White.. The facts I learned early in life regarding Races and their Color that there is (and always has been since man decided this description) only Three Races... Negroid, Caucasian, Asian (Oriental) ... That's why, Hispanics, and American Indians are classified as "White", as are Italians, Egyptians, all the Semitic tribes, etc... I think most dictionaries explain it far better than I. I have Great-Grandparents who migrated from Ireland... they were called the "Black Irish" go figure!... they were "Basque", migrated from the Pyrenees on the Spanish Armada's (if I can remember correctly in the 1600's or 1700's), settled in and around County Cork... Dark curly hair, blue/green eyes, light olive complextion, medium to tall in height. Their language has no known root. What would they be called here? Spanish or French? They spoke their own language, used drums, etc., and special vocalizations to communicate between settlements on each side of the Pyrenees.. Origin of the people, unknown also. Those that traveled, did speak French and Spanish.. So our early settlers, had to use one of the accepted Race nomenclatures...thus using "White" ... Consider those that were raised with SHAME, even if they were half- white, they were called Half-Breeds... Gosh! Our African Americans classified by the USGov as Negro... even if a person had only a 64th negro (so called Blood in their veins).. it was against the law to not proclaim it... RATS! What would any of us do under those conditions? Us Whities are still the intruders here, I feel.. what do "They" call it? Manifest Destiny? Makes a person do a little soul searching while searching for their Roots, I'd say. Deannie San Diego Born in OK and proud of it! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

In a message dated 5/22/01 4:25:26 PM, [email protected] writes: << Many people didn't register because they were trying to pass themselves off as white. This happened with my people and I have never been able to document them. Sue >> Sue: That was a tragic situation back then. Those who married Native Americans, if they were dark, tried to pass them off as Black Dutch. Also, as we know, the Natives didn't want to have to deal with the gov't and the discriminating put downs from the white community. Many didn't consider their tribes as being uncivilized, as did the US gov't. But, it seems, that most men who went to Indian Territory, were leaving another life, and many did marry Natives Americans so they could get land. As the passed down, word of mouth, record goes, in one part of my family, one of my GG granddaddy's told his children and grandchildren that he heard there was land to be had in OK if he married an Indian, and, that he did! She wasn't dark so was passed off as a white person. Till this day, some of the family refuse to know they have native blood, and, yet, it is showing up a lot with some of the younger now generation! One needs to read a lot of old history on this subject to try and get the drift of what it was like back then. And, still, many Native Americans are being discriminated against, which is so very sad. This was THEIR country! Sandi

I think that is what he did! I found a Samuel Butler on the roles and the name Gee Dick is with them and my grandmother recalls having a uncle by that name. I sent to Oklahoma Archives for the records that they have on this family. Got all the info together sent it to Talequah and they sent it all back and told me that i had the wrong one? How many Gee Dicks' can there be out there. I have checked the Dawes Roll that is how I found the Gee Dick with the brother by the name of Samuel. And on the death certificate it is listed as white? So I thought maybe I can find something out there that tells me other wise. I was also told that my great grandmother had a card from the indians, but my great grandfather was ashamed of hand outs and burned the card!!!!!!! If he only knew what he was doing to me now! So I have been trying other avenues since. [email protected]

Cheryl: Check the Dawes Lists and see if he shows up there. There are quite a few sites online where you can find them, or go to a library and ask for them. He was born about the right time to be listed, if his parents applied. Even if they weren't accepted, their application might be there. Since he died in Oklahoma that might also be a good sign. Have you checked with other Cherokee records? Many people didn't register because they were trying to pass themselves off as white. This happened with my people and I have never been able to document them. Sue

I am trying to find info out on my great grandfather. was told that he was Indian and the two pictures that I do have of him do show that he was in deed some indian. But they can't agree if it was Cherokee or what. Though I have been told Cherokee more then any other. I found a census record on him for 1910 listing him, his wife Viola, daughter Mary Jane and son? Charles. We are not for sure if this is in fact his son because my grandmother was told that the child that she had at that time was in fact a child from her sister that passed on. My grandfather was born 3-8-1880 in Missouri and passed on in 1961 in Ft. Gibson,Oklahoma. I ordered his death certificate and it doesn't list nothing that can help. Any help will be appreciated. Thank you [email protected]

Thank you Elaine! I will get it together and send to you. My children are about to get out of school for the summer, and we're moving, so if you don't hear from me don't think I've forgotten. I appreciate your willingness to help. Thanks again. Teresa

Thanks,That is the best so far.....Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [IT-INDIAN] Need Help Finding Tribe > Regarding your request to find the band your ancestor belonged to. There is > quite a bit of information about Idaho and it's native tribes written in the > Indian Tribes of North America by John R. Swanton. Smithsonian Press > > The sections dealing with Idaho start on page 398-412. I scanned through the > information, but it really needs to be studied a closer so that you can > determine for yourself which tribe she belonged to. There are no fewer that > 12 tribes mentioned in the list, plus all the bands listed by geographic area. > > You might also try reading information published by Dr. Brigham Madsen PhD. > retired from the University of Utah. His research/work is extremely good > regarding the Indians of Utah, Idaho, Wyoming. He is highly regarded by the > elders of the tribes. > > Sue > > > ============================== > Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate > your heritage! > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog > >

I'm from a long line of Walkers from East Tennessee...my grandmother was a Walker and my son is named after her, but no Seminoles! Thanks Sandi. Teresa ---- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 10:41 PM Subject: Re: [IT-INDIAN] Wyandot*WALKER > > In a message dated 5/21/01 4:34:05 PM, [email protected] writes: > > << I am researching Walkers in the Wyandot Nation. If anyone has info, please > > post! Thanks! >> > > > My maiden name was WALKER but they are all Seminole from Wewoka, Oklahoma. > > Good luck, Sandi Carter > > > ============================== > Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp >

In a message dated 5/21/01 4:34:05 PM, [email protected] writes: << I am researching Walkers in the Wyandot Nation. If anyone has info, please post! Thanks! >> My maiden name was WALKER but they are all Seminole from Wewoka, Oklahoma. Good luck, Sandi Carter

Regarding your request to find the band your ancestor belonged to. There is quite a bit of information about Idaho and it's native tribes written in the Indian Tribes of North America by John R. Swanton. Smithsonian Press The sections dealing with Idaho start on page 398-412. I scanned through the information, but it really needs to be studied a closer so that you can determine for yourself which tribe she belonged to. There are no fewer that 12 tribes mentioned in the list, plus all the bands listed by geographic area. You might also try reading information published by Dr. Brigham Madsen PhD. retired from the University of Utah. His research/work is extremely good regarding the Indians of Utah, Idaho, Wyoming. He is highly regarded by the elders of the tribes. Sue

Teresa, I'm in Semilole,Ok. Wewoka is about 20 miles from here. I'll sure look to see if I can find anything for you but I'll need more than just the last name. I need the first names and any dates (approximately or firm) you might have. Elaine Foote ([email protected]) --- teresa angle <[email protected]> wrote: > I'm from a long line of Walkers from East > Tennessee...my grandmother was a > Walker and my son is named after her, but no > Seminoles! Thanks Sandi. > Teresa > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 10:41 PM > Subject: Re: [IT-INDIAN] Wyandot*WALKER > > > > > > In a message dated 5/21/01 4:34:05 PM, > [email protected] writes: > > > > << I am researching Walkers in the Wyandot Nation. > If anyone has info, > please > > > > post! Thanks! >> > > > > > > My maiden name was WALKER but they are all > Seminole from Wewoka, Oklahoma. > > > > Good luck, Sandi Carter > > > > > > ============================== > > Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp > > > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy > access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/

I am researching Walkers in the Wyandot Nation. If anyone has info, please post! Thanks!

I noticed the Armstrong & Knisley surnames in your subject. It just so happens those are two surnames that I am researching in the Seneca and Wyandot Indian tribes. The ones I am researching were removed from Ohio to Kansas in 1843. Then some came on down to Indian Territory (now NE Oklahoma). The Knisely surname that I am researching is also known as Crow and as Whitecrow. If you think there may be a connection to these families, please write. Kathryn in OK

I am researching Molly (Mollie,Mary)Ellen Moss b. Apr 23, 1871 Ft Smith Ark, d. Jan 2 1937 Exeter Ca. m. John Calvin Johnson. Her parents were John Moss and Aspicia (no last name known) I would appreciate any leads. She is a brick wall. Willette Walter ===== Researching: CHANEY, MCCARTY, MCCALL, BLAIR, EDMONDSON, JAMESON, JOHNSON, MOSS, ANDERSON, HART, POLLARD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Dear List, I am wanting to find out more about my gggrandmother,a man named Capt.Jonathan Keeney operated a ferry on the Snake River where the Boise River emptied into it at the site of Old Fort Boise.They were having trouble with Indians stealing Horses and burning homes so they got a posse together to stop them,the Capt's wife was wanting him to bring her back a papoose so he brought back two after they had cornered them in the Owyhee Hills I suppose they killed all them to be able to get the babies I would just like to find what band she came from it would have been in SE Idaho and SW Oregon and may be NW Nevada.I would appreciate any help may be the story below will explain better than me.Thank You..Marty Please Read This; During the time Jonathan Keeney made his home on the Boise River and operated the ferry, the Indians became troublesome; stealing the settlers horses and burning their homes; so the pioneer settlers decided something had to be done. A party of settlers gathered at the Keeney ferry to track the troublesome Indians down; before the men left the Fort, Mrs. Keeney told Jonathan not to come back without bringing her a papoose. The posse finally tracked down and cornered the Indians in the Owyhee Hills, and after the battle with the Indians, the posse returned to the ferry with two papooses; a boy and a girl for Mrs. Keeney. The little Indian girl had a string of beads tied around her neck with a buckskin string and Mrs. Keeney decided to give her a bath and clean her up; so, she asked her daughter to bring the scissors to remove the beads. The little Indian girl thought they were going to butcher her and she became so alarmed and frightened that she bit a good-sized mouthful of hide out of Mrs. Keeney's neck. Mrs. Keeney cared for and raised the two children. When the boy became a young man, he left home and went to rejoin his own people. Several years later, on a hot summer day, the Indian boy came back all dressed in Indian fashion, with feathers around his head. He came to the ferry to see Mrs. Keeney and after a short visit, he left, never to return. The Indian girl, Eliza, married a man by the name of Jim Holcomb, who settled and made his home in Eagle Valley, near Richland, Oregon. The Indian woman passed away, leaving a large family, which Mr. Holcomb raised and cared for until his death.

In a message dated 5/21/01 2:03:07 PM, [email protected] writes: << You know, it may turn out that they were Western Cherokee, do you? Wouldn't that be a dissapointment. >> Hi Elaine: I see you ARE on the list now. Good! I have a tiny bit of information on two ALLEN people from Grady CO, OK: ALLEN, Arthur Marmeduke, was Choctaw newborn #698 on the Dawes rolls. He received 200 acres of land southeast of Bradley. ALLEN, Sylvia Eltine, was Choctaw newborn #699 on the Dawes rolls. She received 200 acres northeast of Alex. Do you think your old ones might have been Choctaw? There were a lot in that area and still are a lot. Best, Sandi

--part1_104.3a889d3.283adf6d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All: If you have any information for Elaine, please email her directly at: <[email protected]> Best, Sandi Carter In a message dated 5/21/01 1:56:10 PM, [email protected] writes: << I am searching for a Joseph Willis Allen and his wife, Martha Ann (Williams) Allen who came from Alabama via Mississipi to Oklahoma Indian Territory. We are guessing it was around late 1850s to early 1860s and lived around what is now Chickasha, OK. They are buried in Rose Hill Cemetery. They both died in 1907. Joseph Willis is supposed to have been 1/2 Chero-kee. We don't know how to find his parents to prove it. It is thought that his Father's name was Jobe and that he (Joseph) may have been born in 1825, N. Carolina. Could anyone please direct me or know anything about this person? Thank you. Elaine Foote >> --part1_104.3a889d3.283adf6d_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <[email protected]> Received: from rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (rly-xd04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.169]) by air-xd04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:56:10 -0400 Received: from lists2.rootsweb.com (lists2.rootsweb.com [63.92.80.32]) by rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:56:01 -0400 Received: from web11707.mail.yahoo.com (web11707.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.73]) by lists2.rootsweb.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id f4LKtwv16576 for <[email protected]>; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:55:58 -0700 Message-ID: <[email protected]> Received: from [38.195.219.146] by web11707.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:56:00 PDT Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:56:00 -0700 (PDT) From: elaine foote <[email protected]> Subject: Allen/Williams To: [email protected] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) I am searching for a Joseph Willis Allen and his wife, Martha Ann (Williams) Allen who came from Alabama via Mississipi to Oklahoma Indian Territory. We are guessing it was around late 1850s to early 1860s and lived around what is now Chickasha, OK. They are buried in Rose Hill Cemetery. They both died in 1907. Joseph Willis is supposed to have been 1/2 Chero-kee. We don't know how to find his parents to prove it. It is thought that his Father's name was Jobe and that he (Joseph) may have been born in 1825, N. Carolina. Could anyone please direct me or know anything about this person? Thank you. Elaine Foote __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --part1_104.3a889d3.283adf6d_boundary--

--part1_9a.14962ff5.283aca6c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/21/01 10:28:44 AM, [email protected] writes: << Any information >> Where was your LUCAS family from? I have some from KY. Col. John J. Lucas ? - 1896 m. Maria Brawner Williams 1837 - 1868 Best, Sandi Carter --part1_9a.14962ff5.283aca6c_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <[email protected]> Received: from rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (rly-yd04.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.4]) by air-yd01.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:28:44 -0400 Received: from lists2.rootsweb.com (lists2.rootsweb.com [63.92.80.32]) by rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:28:27 -0400 Received: (from [email protected]) by lists2.rootsweb.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4LHSD828169 for [email protected]; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:28:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:28:13 -0700 X-From_: [email protected] Mon May 21 10:28:13 2001 Received: from newmail.rootsweb.com ([192.168.1.103]) by lists2.rootsweb.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4LHSDv28150 for <[email protected]>; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:28:13 -0700 Received: from gig.centurytel.net (gig.centurytel.net [209.206.160.248]) by newmail.rootsweb.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4LHS4W30707 for <[email protected]>; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:28:04 -0600 Received: from centurytel.net (ppp031.gh.centurytel.net [209.206.171.62]) by gig.centurytel.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4LHSE907460 for <[email protected]>; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <[email protected]> Old-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:28:29 -0700 From: Pauline and Jerry Winchell <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: Lucas-Armstrong-Knisley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Diagnostic: Unprocessed X-Envelope-To: IT-INDIAN-L-request Any information --part1_9a.14962ff5.283aca6c_boundary--