Flattering as it is to find one's name now mentioned as a subject header, I cannot allow the debate to pass without my further contribution. I have just returned from Dorset after spending a few days with my dear wife, since we are currently living apart forcibily as she has to remain in Poole to look after her mother who is almost a centenarian whilst I keep our other home in Hertfordshire going. I arrive home to hundreds of e-mails, including ones which suggest that my name is now being taken in vain as not knowing my history. I cannot, of course, permit this to pass unchallenged! I will therefore quote at length from perhaps the best-known and most knowledgeable historian of the Wars of the Roses period, ALISON WEIR, whose book "Lancaster & York: The Wars of the Roses" was published by Random House in 1995..... "A colourful legend, enshrined in the plays of Shakespeare, relates that the Wars of the Roses broke out in the gardens of the Inns of Temple in London. York and Somerset were one day walking there and fell into an argument, in the course of which Somerset plucked a red rose from a nearby bush and said, 'Let all of my party wear this flower!' York, not to be outdone, picked a white rose to be the emblem of his party. "Sadly, there is no truth in the legend. York was in the north in May 1455 when the incident is said to have taken place, and there is no evidence that the red rose was used as a badge by the House of Lancaster at this date. Nevertheless, red and white roses have been grown in the Temple Gardens since the sixteenth century to commemorate the event. "The white rose was certainly one of the badges of the House of York, although York's personal badge was the falcon and fetterlock. Many modern historians claim that the Lancastrian red rose symbol was invented as propaganda by the first Tudor king, Henry VII. York Civic Records state that in 1486, while on progress in the north, he gave orders for a pageant to be held at York, incorporating 'a royal, rich red rose, unto which rose shall appear another rich, white rose, unto whom all flowers shall give sovereignty, and there shall come from the cloud a crown covering the roses'. Thus evolved the Tudor badge of the Rose and Crown, representing the union of Lancaster and York, Henry VII having recently married Elizabeth of York. "The Croyland Chronicle, written in April 1486, also refers to the red rose of Lancaster. There is evidence, though, that the red rose symbol dates from at least as early as the reign of Edward IV, for a Yorkhist genealogy drawn up during this time, and now in the British Library, shows a bush bearing both red and white roses. It should be borne in mind that the rose badges were just two of a number of badges used by members of the Houses of Lancaster and York. "What we now call the Wars of the Roses were sometimes referred to by contemporaries as the 'Cousins' wars'. The phrase 'Wars of the Roses' was coined by Sir Walter Scott in his novel Anne of Geierstein, published in 1829, but the concept was by no means new and originated in fifteenth-century propaganda. A pamphlet of Sir Thomas Smith, written in 1561, referred to 'the striving of the two roses', while Sir John Oglander wrote in 1646 a tract called The Quarrel of the Warring Roses", and David Hume, in 1761, published The Wars of the Two Roses." The above passage would appear to indicate that the origins of the roses theme is shrouded in mystery and uncertainty, a fact which I myself established several years ago when talking to the College of Arms. The plain and simple fact is that no-one quite knows the truth, but I suspect Alison Weir gets as close to it as anyone ever will. She suggests - and I go along with her - that the Tudor Rose was a creation of Henry VII, the victor of Bosworth Field, for propaganda purposes. After all, he would wish to reunite his kingdom after 30 years of civil war and in those times symbols were hugely important. What seems also to be clear is that white and red roses were never more than secondary symbols for the Houses of York and Lancaster and, certainly, the idea that soldiers on opposing sides wore them on their breastplates to enable them to distinguish friends from enemies is almost certainly nonsense. Alison Weir refers quite plainly to the invention by Shakespeare, which is what I mentioned originally. She also mentions something which I have often pointed out, namely that the Wars of the Roses, as a historical phrase, was invented by Sir Walter Scott as recently as 1829. I think I know my history as well as most here, plus I have a considerable library of books (anyone remember books, BTW?) and I am always happy to engage in debate about historical events, since I believe I am more knowledgeable than most on the subject. My researches are not confined to schoolboy history lessons. Pip, pip, all !!! -- Roy Stockdill Professional genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE