On 27 Sep 2009 at 19:39, Joy Langdon wrote: > I don't claim any knowledge or wisdom but Roy has said he values > attention to detail and hates it if anyone gets anything wrong about > genealogy so I knew he wouldn't want to continue telling people that > they were misquoting Shakespeare when they were actually quoting > Homer.   Sorry if that makes me lacking in humility, I thought I was > being helpful! > Joy was quite correct! I had forgotten that Shakespeare plagiarised the saying from someone else and if she says it was Homer I am sure she's right. But, then, Shakespeare was never averse to a bit of plagiarism - just like Oscar Wilde. As a Yorkshireman, I happen to believe that it was The Bard who also invented the myth of the Roses, Lancashire red, Yorkshire white, in Henry VI Part 1. In real life it never happened until Shakespeare dreamed it up. We should always remember he was a dramatist and not a historian. -- Roy Stockdill Professional genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

I haven't replied to any of the comments recently posted about Mariage cert / fathers and further ongoing arguments about family history versus geneaology as it is all rather petty, but am now infuriated thet Roy Stockdill is changing History!! I don't claim any particular wisdom either but having a love for early buildings, especially Tudor ones - I felt I had to comment... The Tudor rose was a combination of The York emblem (White rose and goes back to Edward IV (1461 - 14830) and the Lancasterian Emblem (Red Rose taken on by the Lancasterians at the Battle of Bosworth in recognition of supporting the descendents of John of Gaunt (Ist Duke of Lancaster via his son Henry IV (Bollingbrooke ), whose family emblem it was, The two roses were combined when Henry Tudor (a Lancastarian) married Elizabeth of York in 1486 after the Battle of Bosworth (1485). There are many examples all over Tudor buildings famous ones such as Hampton Court, Anne Boleyn's Gate etc. which were built long before Shakespeare was born!! There are also ones engraved on the cannons of the Mary Rose which sank in 1545, not to be seen again by divers until 1966! The Great Hall at Winchester was also 'adorned' with Tudor Roses by a young Henry VIII for a visit by the Charles V the Holy Roman Emperor, So it had happened 'in real life' before the Bard (1564 - 1592)! It is possible that Shakespeare took the details and enhanced them (as he was known to do) after performing at Hampton Court in 1603 or in one of the other great houses of the time as it was the custom to have the roses engraved everywhere to show support for the Tudors and especialy Henry VIII - a king you did not want to displease! Please get your facts correct before making such statements!! Vanessa Dorset (much of which was owned by John of Gaunt and also has some fine examples of early english and tudor roses in lesser known tudor buildings such as Hooke Court) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Stockdill" <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> To: <isle-of-wight@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [IoW] Joy On 27 Sep 2009 at 19:39, Joy Langdon wrote: > I don't claim any knowledge or wisdom but Roy has said he values > attention to detail and hates it if anyone gets anything wrong about > genealogy so I knew he wouldn't want to continue telling people that > they were misquoting Shakespeare when they were actually quoting > Homer. Sorry if that makes me lacking in humility, I thought I was > being helpful! > Joy was quite correct! I had forgotten that Shakespeare plagiarised the saying from someone else and if she says it was Homer I am sure she's right. But, then, Shakespeare was never averse to a bit of plagiarism - just like Oscar Wilde. As a Yorkshireman, I happen to believe that it was The Bard who also invented the myth of the Roses, Lancashire red, Yorkshire white, in Henry VI Part 1. In real life it never happened until Shakespeare dreamed it up. We should always remember he was a dramatist and not a historian. -- Roy Stockdill Professional genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE ************************************** You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thankyou Vanessa for the very interesting and factual account of the history of the Tudor Rose. Not a sign of condescension - which I applaud. Kind regards Sandra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vanessa Marshall" <van.m@o2.co.uk> To: "Roy Stockdill" <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com>; <isle-of-wight@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [IoW] Roy Stockdill's comments. >I haven't replied to any of the comments recently posted about Mariage cert > / fathers and further ongoing arguments about family history versus > geneaology as it is all rather petty, but am now infuriated thet Roy > Stockdill is changing History!! > > I don't claim any particular wisdom either but having a love for early > buildings, especially Tudor ones - I felt I had to comment... > > The Tudor rose was a combination of The York emblem (White rose and goes > back to Edward IV (1461 - 14830) and the Lancasterian Emblem (Red Rose > taken > on by the Lancasterians at the Battle of Bosworth in recognition of > supporting the descendents of John of Gaunt (Ist Duke of Lancaster via his > son Henry IV (Bollingbrooke ), whose family emblem it was, > > The two roses were combined when Henry Tudor (a Lancastarian) married > Elizabeth of York in 1486 after the Battle of Bosworth (1485). > > There are many examples all over Tudor buildings famous ones such as > Hampton > Court, Anne Boleyn's Gate etc. which were built long before Shakespeare > was > born!! There are also ones engraved on the cannons of the Mary Rose which > sank in 1545, not to be seen again by divers until 1966! > The Great Hall at Winchester was also 'adorned' with Tudor Roses by a > young > Henry VIII for a visit by the Charles V the Holy Roman Emperor, > > So it had happened 'in real life' before the Bard (1564 - 1592)! > It is possible that Shakespeare took the details and enhanced them (as he > was known to do) after performing at Hampton Court in 1603 or in one of > the > other great houses of the time as it was the custom to have the roses > engraved everywhere to show support for the Tudors and especialy Henry > VIII - a king you did not want to displease! > > Please get your facts correct before making such statements!! > > > Vanessa > Dorset > (much of which was owned by John of Gaunt and also has some fine examples > of > early english and tudor roses in lesser known tudor buildings such as > Hooke > Court) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy Stockdill" <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> > To: <isle-of-wight@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 10:17 PM > Subject: Re: [IoW] Joy > > > On 27 Sep 2009 at 19:39, Joy Langdon wrote: > >> I don't claim any knowledge or wisdom but Roy has said he values >> attention to detail and hates it if anyone gets anything wrong about >> genealogy so I knew he wouldn't want to continue telling people that >> they were misquoting Shakespeare when they were actually quoting >> Homer. Sorry if that makes me lacking in humility, I thought I was >> being helpful! > > > Joy was quite correct! I had forgotten that Shakespeare plagiarised the > saying from > someone else and if she says it was Homer I am sure she's right. > > But, then, Shakespeare was never averse to a bit of plagiarism - just like > Oscar Wilde. > > As a Yorkshireman, I happen to believe that it was The Bard who also > invented the > myth of the Roses, Lancashire red, Yorkshire white, in Henry VI Part 1. In > real life it > never happened until Shakespeare dreamed it up. We should always remember > he > was a dramatist and not a historian. > > -- > Roy Stockdill > Professional genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer > Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: > www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html > > "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, > and that is not being talked about." > OSCAR WILDE > > > > > ************************************** > You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: > Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ************************************** > You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: > Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > _______________________________________ > No viruses found in this incoming message > Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.6.4 > http://www.iolo.com > _______________________________________ No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.6.4 http://www.iolo.com

War of the roses or not, at least now we may better understand why the stocks were once so popular. All that pent up hatred could actually be turned into violence used to actually hurt the victim. Having very narrowly missed a lynching, it seems now that only the virtual nature of the internet is saving Roy from an obviously long and hurtful time in the stocks. Judged, condemned and committed, all without fair trial! Thank goodness that civilisation has progressed since then; or has it? Read the apparently offending quote again and ask yourselves if it really warrants such a violent reaction? "Frankly, I find it slightly astonishing that anyone even needs to ask the question. Haven't some listers here ever read a book on how to trace their family history or look at internet websites that give this kind of information readily?" It seems to me that Roy was never as offensive as those who have attacked him. Mark Urry France Researching URRY & BASTIANI