Hi listers, The Isle of Wight Family History Society Births list ref 1844 R5/P71, records the birth of Rose Ellen Lambert mother Loder. I am unable to find any marriage between a Lambert and a Lo(a)der, so assume that Rose Ellen was illegitimate. In the 1851 Census ref HO107/1663/47/31 Rose Ellen Loader is aged 6 years and living with James & Fanny Loader. Rose married Robert Morgan as Rose Ellen Loader IOW FHS Marriages list 1870 RO15/179. Is it possible that some kind soul could investigate mother's full name and any other detail of father, for me? Regards, Brian in West Oz

Hello Folks, First I want to acknowledge some excellent help recently from a lister in this group whom I asked to review the Prangnell section of my Fleming Tree. Not only did he do that but reviewed the whole Tree. This is typical of the help I have received from these various Rootsweb based groups around the country, just plain unselfish use of their time. NOW to current business I have a problem with one John PRAGNELL / PRANGNELL who married Eliza Fleming 10 May 1840, and they had 10 children until Eliza died in Mar Qtr 1860 (as PRAGNELL) John remarried, this time to Mary Ann, who was possibly another FLEMING but I cannot find a marriage, only Census reports. However the first child from this marriage, and subsequently 2 more, were recorded by the IOWFHS as having a mother named FLEMING. Mary Ann died and John remarried again, this time to Frances Pain Dec 1870 St Mary's Brading. If anyone can contribute anything to this situation I would be very appreciative Phil White in New Hampshire USA Roots in Sussex and IOW

Hi Folks Thanks to all those that sent in tips etc on how to find a US Staff Sergeant lastg heard of in Butte Montana Well my friend contacted The Montana Standare who put a piece in the paper for him He had three replies all with the sad news that his friend Howard White and his wife Phyllis had both passed away. But a lady also emailed him who grandson is Debbies son (Phyllis' daughter) so he still has a link to the family. But sad that he could not reunited them with his wife ready for their wedding anniversary Once again many thanks to all Chris History of the villages of Dorset, Hampshire and Isle of Wight http://southernlife.org.uk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi List, There is a story about my father that I would love to get to the truth. My father and one of his brothers (usually in their cups) would start talking about it until my mother, realising that us children were listening, would shut them up. My grandmother, Violet Daisy (Pickett) FOSKETT was widowed by WW1, and raised 5 children on her own. At some time in the 1920's she came from Southampton to the Island with the children as a "housekeeper", although I do question what the actual relationship was between her and her "employer", who I think was called Harry. Something happened between her and her "employer", resulting in my father being determined to kill him. So, as a 13 year old, he was up a tree with a gun, taking potshots at the said "Harry". It was at this point that my mother would intervene to stop the story. As this would have taken place in about 1928/9, there is no-one left who could shed light on the story. Their sojourn on the Island probably ended around this time when they returned to Southampton. My own feeling is that she was more a mistress than a housekeeper and that the said Harry ended the relationship, and possibly threw her out. Her boys were very defensive where she was concerned and perhaps were angry to see their mother so upset. Did the matter end up in court? Was Harry injured? I dont really expect anyone to know the answers, but who knows..... Regards Sandra

What a hoot!!!!!! Ann Spiro Member #1551 The good side of Family History Research: Banging your head against a wall uses 150 calories a hour I've got cousins, for whom there is not Isle of Wight connection, whose surname is Fagot and they lived in rural Nebraska in the US for 150 years. The grandson, my cousin, was never embarrassed by the name and thought nothing of using it publicly or privately. But his kids cringed every time they had to wait for a table at a restaurant. because the wait ended when the maitre'd announced "The Fagot's table is ready." The great grandson, who now lived in Cincinnati, Ohio, once grown legally changed his name to Forester, the English translation of Fagot (which is French). In a couple of generations, the Foresters will have forgotten the original name only to have it be rediscovered by some curious kid to the consternation of all. Kelvin Kean Elverson PA

I have been reading about surnames in this list with interest and have seen changes happen in my own family tree. When I was growing up on the Isle of Wight, we were a large group -my Father being the youngest of fifteen siblings- our surname was/is FOUNTAINE. Now we knew there was another family with the surname FOUNTAIN and we were told these were nothing short of an anomaly, no relation at all. I remember an elderly aunt telling me once; "Oi dunno where they be from, but they ain't our'n!" Then, when visiting the Island in 1987, we found that my Great Grandmother was a Miss FOUNTAIN who gave birth to my Grandfather, WALTER in the Carribrooke House of Industry. He was listed as FOUNTAIN, but his father was the ubiquitous Mr UNKNOWN! (This revelation, when I made it known, brought howls of protests from some of my relatives !!! Their problem, not mine!) Some years later, when he - my G'Father- married he had acquired the 'E' on his name and was referred to as FOUNTAINE. At whose behest this 'E' became added is totally unknown, it could even have been a spelling error by the clerk, but it became jealously guarded and was worn almost as a badge of office to distance ourselves '...from that other lot!' Derek In the South Sea Isles of Vanuatu -Once an Islander, always an Islander! Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/2009 5:53 p.m.

HI People sometimes do not like their names, so they change them. For example Mrs. Bucket = Bouquet. I now a family in NSW whose ancestors came out her in the very early days and have the surname BOTTLES - but always give their name as BOTTELLS. My families from the IoW are Baskett and Nutty (on the 1901 census as NUTTS). My grandfather used to sometimes refer to us as little baskets! It wasn't until I was quite old that I realized what he meant. Have a nice day - from very hot Western Australia (heat will reach 41C today, not for the first time of course). Kind regards Ann Spiro Member #1551 research@sbse.net.au Families are  like fudge...mostly sweet, with few nuts.

Hi A very interesting and amusing story, thanks. In my family the COPESTAKEs, had their name changed to COPESTICK in 1744 when the vicar changed - sticks and stakes are essentially the same thing and I suspect no-one ever knew about the change as they would have been illiterate... Best wishes Carole > From: deev@vanuatu.com.vu > To: carolewill28@hotmail.com; roy.stockdill@btinternet.com; isle-of-wight@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: [IoW] SURNAME ATLAS > Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:32:30 +1100 > > > > I have been reading about surnames in this list with interest and have seen > changes happen in my own family tree. When I was growing up on the Isle of > Wight, we were a large group -my Father being the youngest of fifteen > siblings- our surname was/is FOUNTAINE. Now we knew there was another > family with the surname FOUNTAIN and we were told these were nothing short > of an anomaly, no relation at all. I remember an elderly aunt telling me > once; "Oi dunno where they be from, but they ain't our'n!" > > Then, when visiting the Island in 1987, we found that my Great Grandmother > was a Miss FOUNTAIN who gave birth to my Grandfather, WALTER in the > Carribrooke House of Industry. He was listed as FOUNTAIN, but his father > was the ubiquitous Mr UNKNOWN! (This revelation, when I made it known, > brought howls of protests from some of my relatives !!! Their problem, not > mine!) Some years later, when he - my G'Father- married he had acquired the > 'E' on his name and was referred to as FOUNTAINE. At whose behest this 'E' > became added is totally unknown, it could even have been a spelling error by > the clerk, but it became jealously guarded and was worn almost as a badge of > office to distance ourselves '...from that other lot!' > > Derek In the South Sea Isles of Vanuatu -Once an Islander, always an > Islander! > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/2009 > 5:53 p.m. > _________________________________________________________________ Do you have a story that started on Hotmail? Tell us now http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/

I've got cousins, for whom there is not Isle of Wight connection, whose surname is Fagot and they lived in rural Nebraska in the US for 150 years. The grandson, my cousin, was never embarrassed by the name and thought nothing of using it publicly or privately. But his kids cringed every time they had to wait for a table at a restaurant. because the wait ended when the maitre'd announced "The Fagot's table is ready." The great grandson, who now lived in Cincinnati, Ohio, once grown legally changed his name to Forester, the English translation of Fagot (which is French). In a couple of generations, the Foresters will have forgotten the original name only to have it be rediscovered by some curious kid to the consternation of all. Kelvin Kean Elverson PA

The best authority on Scottish surnames would be "The Surnames of Scotland" by George F Black. It is the only book which has my rare Scottish maiden name BANKIER. Angela

Hello Roy Thanks for the recommendation. I'll take a look at that book and see if I too find his work superior to David Hey's, who is Emeritus (retired) Professor of Local and Family History, University of Sheffield. I attended a couple of David's lectures a few years ago and found him an excellent and knowledgeable speaker, with a highly accessible style. He seems to hold a similar approach to George Redmonds, as in the particular book (2000) of his that I recommended (which is not a dictionary), he recommends a multidisciplinary approach. He critically reviews a wide variety of philologists' methodologies and recommends that these should be considered alongside the work of family historians. He praises the work of George Redmonds especially the 1997 book you recommend, making many citations to it. The exact derivations and suggested etymologies of individual surnames are still mysterious and hypothetical in the vast majority of cases and/or lost in the annals of time, but we'll never know what we'll find on our quest to dicover if 'ours' are there to be found - an absolutely fascinating hobby isn't it.... I now look forward to some more fascinating winter nights of reading with this new book, thanks. Best wishes Carole > From: roy.stockdill@btinternet.com > To: isle-of-wight@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:12:58 +0000 > Subject: Re: [IoW] SURNAME ATLAS > > On 22 Feb 2010 at 20:02, carole williams wrote: > >> >> Hi Listers >> >> I'd like to recommend "Family Names and Family History" by David Hey, >> for an excellent exposition on various writers, theories and >> methodologies used to identify the source of names, usually 13th >> century. >> >> Amazon has some used copies at very affordable prices. >> >> Best wishes Carole> > > No disrespect to David Hey, who is good, but in my humble opinion George > Redmonds leaves him well behind when it comes to the theory and study of > surnames. > > I especially recommend George's book "Surnames and Genealogy: A New Approach", > though it may now be out of print. If you can find a copy in a library, borrow it and read > from cover to cover! I have chaired George Redmonds' lectures a couple of times and > he is a superb speaker as well. > > As I explained in a previous message, he holds the view that each and every surname > belonging to each and every individual is unique in itself and that the surname > dictionaries are too simplistic in their approach, often being based purely on etymology > and plain guesswork. George believes you can only explain a surname by tracing it > back to the original holder in written records - which very few of us can do. > > -- > Roy Stockdill > Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer > Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html > > "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, > and that is not being talked about." > OSCAR WILDE > > > > ************************************** > You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: > Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Tell us your greatest, weirdest and funniest Hotmail stories http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/

Here's something you don't come across very often . (from the IoW bap card indexes) Jane SARGANT "bap Freshwater 1812 bap completed 1827" A very long bap service :-) Angela

On 23 Feb 2010 at 7:03, Claire Bennett-Claypole wrote: > It would be interesting to do a study of how names have changes over > the years... > > Having a name like Claypole has been interesting as they are very > localised and if you find one that escaped their 'natural habitat' > there is a good chance that they are a distant relative. Some of the > misspellings have been really funny (I get Claypoti, Cleypole, and the > Italian version Claypolo). I also think with names that if it is > unusual people will sometimes confuse it with a similar name eg > Claypole becomes Catchpole (people seem to have heard of Catchpole). > Claypole is a blessing when doing family history - my grandfather's > second wife was a Smith and its proving bery difficult to find out > about her and where she came from etc. I am doing some research for > their adopted daughter and its been tough although I recently had a > breakthrough with the marriage certificate. > > When we looked up a 'meaning of names book' it mentioned that > Claypole's were clay pit workers - which confirms that both my side of > the family and my husbands were definately were lower class! So when > distant rellies show me the family coat of arms I have a good laugh - > as if a ag lab would have one! > Wouldn't it be amusing to imagine what sort of surnames would be around today if we revived the medieval fashion of naming people after their occupations? We would have names like Jennifer Secretary, John Computer-Programmer, Natalie Pop-Singer, Nigel Footballer and Harold Accountant! -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

On 22 Feb 2010 at 19:50, Angela McMurtry wrote: > In my humble view, the various surname maps are good if you have a > rare or unusual surname. > > I've long been suspicious of the view that all SMITHS were once > SMITHS, all CLARKS were once CLERKS, always seemed a bit too > simplistic. If trades became surnames and we have CARTERS why not > CARRIERS. > > I think the Victorians spear headed surname 'histories' when coats of > arms became all the rage. > > Over time, many surnames have been corrupted and the original meaning > has been lost. Two diiferent names can appear to be the same one, > being similar in sound, but different in origin. > > One of my surnames is fairly uncommon and is DUNCH from Norwich, > thanks to a clerical error at marriage I have a whole branch on my > tree spelling it DENCH..how many times has your own surname being > spelt incorrectly. If some people had their way McMurtry would be > Murphy :-) > > I think it all comes down to etymology and linguistics ....interesting > subject. Angela > You confirm my own views, Angela, which is that trying to explain the origins and meaning of surnames is fraught with pitfalls and much too simplistic. I too suffer from the misspelling of my name. I think my favourites are STOCKDRILL and STOCKDULL (one thing I don't think I am is dull!). One useful thing, though, about having an unusual surname misspelt is that you don't have to respond to letters you don't much like (bills, etc) as you can always pretend they were addressed to the wrong person! I have expounded the views of Dr George Redmonds, probably the world's leading academic researcher of surnames, and I agree with him that each and every surname is unique in itself to a particular individual and can only be explained if traced right back to the original holder. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

On 22 Feb 2010 at 20:02, carole williams wrote: > > Hi Listers > > I'd like to recommend "Family Names and Family History" by David Hey, > for an excellent exposition on various writers, theories and > methodologies used to identify the source of names, usually 13th > century. > > Amazon has some used copies at very affordable prices. > > Best wishes Carole > No disrespect to David Hey, who is good, but in my humble opinion George Redmonds leaves him well behind when it comes to the theory and study of surnames. I especially recommend George's book "Surnames and Genealogy: A New Approach", though it may now be out of print. If you can find a copy in a library, borrow it and read from cover to cover! I have chaired George Redmonds' lectures a couple of times and he is a superb speaker as well. As I explained in a previous message, he holds the view that each and every surname belonging to each and every individual is unique in itself and that the surname dictionaries are too simplistic in their approach, often being based purely on etymology and plain guesswork. George believes you can only explain a surname by tracing it back to the original holder in written records - which very few of us can do. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Hi Angela It would be interesting to do a study of how names have changes over the years... Having a name like Claypole has been interesting as they are very localised and if you find one that escaped their 'natural habitat' there is a good chance that they are a distant relative. Some of the misspellings have been really funny (I get Claypoti, Cleypole, and the Italian version Claypolo). I also think with names that if it is unusual people will sometimes confuse it with a similar name eg Claypole becomes Catchpole (people seem to have heard of Catchpole). Claypole is a blessing when doing family history - my grandfather's second wife was a Smith and its proving bery difficult to find out about her and where she came from etc. I am doing some research for their adopted daughter and its been tough although I recently had a breakthrough with the marriage certificate. When we looked up a 'meaning of names book' it mentioned that Claypole's were clay pit workers - which confirms that both my side of the family and my husbands were definately were lower class! So when distant rellies show me the family coat of arms I have a good laugh - as if a ag lab would have one! Claire -----Original Message----- From: isle-of-wight-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:isle-of-wight-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Angela McMurtry Sent: Tuesday, 23 February 2010 6:51 AM To: isle-of-wight@rootsweb.com Subject: [IoW] SURNAME ATLAS In my humble view, the various surname maps are good if you have a rare or unusual surname. I've long been suspicious of the view that all SMITHS were once SMITHS, all CLARKS were once CLERKS, always seemed a bit too simplistic. If trades became surnames and we have CARTERS why not CARRIERS. I think the Victorians spear headed surname 'histories' when coats of arms became all the rage. Over time, many surnames have been corrupted and the original meaning has been lost. Two diiferent names can appear to be the same one, being similar in sound, but different in origin. One of my surnames is fairly uncommon and is DUNCH from Norwich, thanks to a clerical error at marriage I have a whole branch on my tree spelling it DENCH..how many times has your own surname being spelt incorrectly. If some people had their way McMurtry would be Murphy :-) I think it all comes down to etymology and linguistics ....interesting subject. Angela ************************************** You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2703 - Release Date: 02/22/10 18:34:00

Hi According to David Hey in "Family Names and Family History", p 167, CATCHPOLE was an occupational name recorded in Suffolk in 1674 for a tax gatherer - literally meaning 'chase fowl' i.e. a collector of poultry in default of money. Best wishes Carole > From: claypole@netspeed.com.au > To: angelamciow@talktalk.net; isle-of-wight@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:03:39 +1100 > Subject: Re: [IoW] SURNAME ATLAS > > Hi Angela > > > It would be interesting to do a study of how names have changes over the > years... > > Having a name like Claypole has been interesting as they are very localised > and if you find one that escaped their 'natural habitat' there is a good > chance that they are a distant relative. Some of the misspellings have been > really funny (I get Claypoti, Cleypole, and the Italian version Claypolo). > I also think with names that if it is unusual people will sometimes confuse > it with a similar name eg Claypole becomes Catchpole (people seem to have > heard of Catchpole). Claypole is a blessing when doing family history - my > grandfather's second wife was a Smith and its proving bery difficult to find > out about her and where she came from etc. I am doing some research for > their adopted daughter and its been tough although I recently had a > breakthrough with the marriage certificate. > > When we looked up a 'meaning of names book' it mentioned that Claypole's > were clay pit workers - which confirms that both my side of the family and > my husbands were definately were lower class! So when distant rellies show > me the family coat of arms I have a good laugh - as if a ag lab would have > one! > > Claire > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: isle-of-wight-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:isle-of-wight-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Angela McMurtry > Sent: Tuesday, 23 February 2010 6:51 AM > To: isle-of-wight@rootsweb.com > Subject: [IoW] SURNAME ATLAS > > > In my humble view, the various surname maps are good if you have a rare or > unusual surname. > > I've long been suspicious of the view that all SMITHS were once SMITHS, all > CLARKS were once CLERKS, always seemed a bit too simplistic. If trades > became surnames and we have CARTERS why not CARRIERS. > > I think the Victorians spear headed surname 'histories' when coats of arms > became all the rage. > > Over time, many surnames have been corrupted and the original meaning has > been lost. Two diiferent names can appear to be the same one, being similar > in sound, but different in origin. > > One of my surnames is fairly uncommon and is DUNCH from Norwich, thanks to a > clerical error at marriage I have a whole branch on my tree spelling it > DENCH..how many times has your own surname being spelt incorrectly. If some > people had their way McMurtry would be Murphy :-) > > I think it all comes down to etymology and linguistics ....interesting > subject. > Angela > > > ************************************** > You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: > Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2703 - Release Date: 02/22/10 > 18:34:00 > > > ************************************** > You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: > Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Do you have a story that started on Hotmail? Tell us now http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/

Hi Listers I'd like to recommend "Family Names and Family History" by David Hey, for an excellent exposition on various writers, theories and methodologies used to identify the source of names, usually 13th century. Amazon has some used copies at very affordable prices. Best wishes Carole > From: angelamciow@talktalk.net > To: isle-of-wight@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:50:51 +0000 > Subject: [IoW] SURNAME ATLAS > > In my humble view, the various surname maps are good if you have a rare or > unusual surname. > > I've long been suspicious of the view that all SMITHS were once SMITHS, all > CLARKS were once CLERKS, always seemed a bit too simplistic. If trades > became surnames and we have CARTERS why not CARRIERS. > > I think the Victorians spear headed surname 'histories' when coats of arms > became all the rage. > > Over time, many surnames have been corrupted and the original meaning has > been lost. Two diiferent names can appear to be the same one, being similar > in sound, but different in origin. > > One of my surnames is fairly uncommon and is DUNCH from Norwich, thanks to a > clerical error at marriage I have a whole branch on my tree spelling it > DENCH..how many times has your own surname being spelt incorrectly. If some > people had their way McMurtry would be Murphy :-) > > I think it all comes down to etymology and linguistics ....interesting > subject. > Angela > > > ************************************** > You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: > Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/

In my humble view, the various surname maps are good if you have a rare or unusual surname. I've long been suspicious of the view that all SMITHS were once SMITHS, all CLARKS were once CLERKS, always seemed a bit too simplistic. If trades became surnames and we have CARTERS why not CARRIERS. I think the Victorians spear headed surname 'histories' when coats of arms became all the rage. Over time, many surnames have been corrupted and the original meaning has been lost. Two diiferent names can appear to be the same one, being similar in sound, but different in origin. One of my surnames is fairly uncommon and is DUNCH from Norwich, thanks to a clerical error at marriage I have a whole branch on my tree spelling it DENCH..how many times has your own surname being spelt incorrectly. If some people had their way McMurtry would be Murphy :-) I think it all comes down to etymology and linguistics ....interesting subject. Angela

See http://globalgenealogy.com/globalgazette/gazrr/gazrr189.htm Linda & Tony Knight -----Original Message----- From: isle-of-wight-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:isle-of-wight-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Roy Stockdill Sent: 22 February 2010 12:57 To: isle-of-wight@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IoW] Surname history in shopoing centres On 22 Feb 2010 at 11:21, SBS Engineers Genealogy wrote: > Good morning list > > For new researchers finding their way:- I have to agree with Roy's > warning to be careful about those <<snip>>"shop genealogy" outfits who For the benefit of newcomers here who may be tempted to fall for the whiles of these people and think they are buying their "family coat of arms", perhaps I could spell out the pitfalls? There is NO such thing as a family coat of arms, nor is there a coat of arms for a particular surname. With a few exceptions, a coat of arms is issued only to an individual and his heirs in the direct male line and they have to make what are called "differences". Sometimes females can also use it. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html