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    1. Re: [IoW] Missing from the 1881 Census IOW: William Henry WILLIAMS
    2. Jon Baker
    3. Robert I think I suggested in an earlier mail that it is highly likely that the reason William cannot be found is because he was in some sort of institution on census night. This would fit in with his wife being found and recorded as "wife" rather than "Head", i.e. he was away from home temporarily. The most likely "institutions" (without trying to cast aspersions on William) would be the Workhouse (possibly the infirmary), a mental hospital (in 1881 Isle of Wight Mental Patients would be at Knowle Hospital, Fareham), Prison or the Military (unlikely given his age). In many cases patients or inmates at such institutions were recorded only by their initials, age and occupation. I hope you can find him elsewhere, because identifying people by their initials only is difficult and imprecise. Would he be recorded as WW or WHW? The alternative is that he was simply missed from the census because he was not at home. There are many people that did not show up in a census, either by design or accident. Regards Jon -----Original Message----- I realise that we've been over this before, But: Search as I might and also others; William Henry WILLIAMS cannot be found in the 1881 Census. If any fellow lister has any spare time and can find him in the 1881 Census; I would be ever so very grateful as I would expect to find him somewhere on the IOW as he was there for the previous and subsequent Census, plus his Wife and family were still there for the 1881 Census, plus he was a Labourer. Initially: William Henry WILLIAMS b) abt 1834 said he was from England; thereafter from Devonshire.

    05/10/2017 08:03:42
    1. Re: [IoW] Obtaining IOW Marriage Certificates from outside the UK?
    2. Jon Baker
    3. Hi Robert I suspect that the IW Council are unable to deal with overseas applications for certificates. The form you were filling in had no space for country name, even if you could enter a postcode (note that in my account the post code was entered with no spaces, whereas normally in the UK there is a space between the first 3 or 4 characters and the last 3 characters). I suggest the easiest way (and cheaper) is to apply for the certificate through the GRO who are better geared up to overseas applications. Regards Jon Baker -----Original Message----- I would be interested to know if any fellow lister have obtained IOW Certificates from outside the UK and how they were able to do so? I visited the site and found I had to create an account which I endeavoured to do, but; it will not accept my Post Code. I thought that by obtaining the Marriage Certificate from the IOW would be very much quicker than going through the GRO? Robert Australia

    05/10/2017 07:52:24
    1. [IoW] Missing from the 1881 Census IOW: William Henry WILLIAMS
    2. Robert N. G. KEMSLEY
    3. I realise that we've been over this before, But: Search as I might and also others; William Henry WILLIAMS cannot be found in the 1881 Census. If any fellow lister has any spare time and can find him in the 1881 Census; I would be ever so very grateful as I would expect to find him somewhere on the IOW as he was there for the previous and subsequent Census, plus his Wife and family were still there for the 1881 Census, plus he was a Labourer. Initially: William Henry WILLIAMS b) abt 1834 said he was from England; thereafter from Devonshire. Robert Australia

    05/04/2017 07:06:34
    1. [IoW] England and Wales Census, 1881
    2. SBS Engineers Research
    3. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27X-WM3C Here is one Henry .W. Williams bon 1834 Cornwall later living in Devon. Wife Elizabeth. A. and daughter Ada. E. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27X-WM3C familysearch.org is a FREE site. Regards Ann Spiro Guild ONS Representative for WA & NT. rep-australia-north-west@one-name.org Guild registered surnames: BASKETT; BRIGGS http://www.one-name.org/ <http://www.one-name.org/> Baskett DNA Project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Baskett <http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Baskett>

    05/04/2017 05:35:10
    1. [IoW] Obtaining IOW Marriage Certificates from outside the UK?
    2. Robert N. G. KEMSLEY
    3. I would be interested to know if any fellow lister have obtained IOW Certificates from outside the UK and how they were able to do so? My reason for asking is that I found the Marriage I was seeking on the IOW FHS WebSite which gives a Reference Number for the Entry, which when clicked on; takes you to "Application for a Marriage Certificate Form"; at the bottom of which is: Cheques are no longer accepted by the Register Office. Postal orders (in UK Pounds) should be made payable to "IWC". The Isle of Wight Register Office aim to return applications within two working days. If we have a problem with your application we will always try to contact you in the first instance. Arrangements can be made to pay by credit card -- please contact us by email -- see below. Please send your application to: Isle of Wight Register Office, Seaclose Offices, Fairlee Road, Newport, Isle of Wight, PO30 2QS Tel. 01983 821000. International +44 1983 821000 Email: <mailto:registrars@iow.gov.uk> registrars@iow.gov.uk As I wished to pay by Credit Card: I sent an Email off and in due course; received a response from Coroners & Registration Services Manager With the following message: Have you tried applying for the certificate through the councils website: <https://www.iwight.com/iwforms/form.aspx?k=marriagecert> https://www.iwight.com/iwforms/form.aspx?k=marriagecert I visited the site and found I had to create an account which I endeavoured to do, but; it will not accept my Post Code. I thought that by obtaining the Marriage Certificate from the IOW would be very much quicker than going through the GRO? Robert Australia

    05/03/2017 04:31:29
    1. Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Jon Baker
    3. Robert Good luck with finding details about events in Alderney. Other than the census there is very little available online, and from what I can gather, there is not very good coverage offline either (some losses due to WW2). The details of how to find civil registrations that do exist can be found here: http://www.alderney.gov.gg/article/114569/The-Registers-of-Birth-Marriage--D eath Hopefully you may be able to locate the death of Sarah Ann Wood Williams (William's first wife), assuming she died on Alderney. Apparently the Priaulx Library on Guernsey may also have some Alderney records: http://www.priaulxlibrary.co.uk/ Hopefully you will let us know when you get the details of the marriage between William Henry Williams and Sarah Sims in 1867. Regards Jon Baker -----Original Message----- From: Robert N. G. KEMSLEY [mailto:robtricia@optusnet.com.au] The only matters I would now like to see cleared up is where William Henry WILLIAMS was in the 1841, 1851 and in the 1881 Census and what became of Sarah Ann WOOD/WILLIAMS which I will continue to work away at finding if possible? Kindest Regards; Robert Australia -----Original Message----- From: Jon Baker [mailto:jon@vectisjon.com] Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2017 10:23 PM To: 'Robert N. G. KEMSLEY'; Isle-of-Wight@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867 Robert Regarding Sarah Ann Williams (b1857 Alderney, in the 1871 census with William and Sarah). In 1891 census she is listed at 17 Mount Street, Ryde as Sarah White (30, born Alderney), wife of William White (30), together with 2 children, William and Ada, and (solving another mystery) sister-in-law Cicelna Williams, aged 6 (Cicelina). Sarah's age is out by about 3 years, she would have been about 33. Sarah and William married in 1883 at the Independent Chapel, High Street, Ventnor (IWFHS Marriages). The son William was born 1885, MMS (Mother Maiden Surname) Williams, Ada born 1887, again MMS Williams. In 1901 (Class: RG13; Piece: 1025; Folio: 51; Page: 2) the family are at 49 High Street, Ryde. Sarah is now 41. Cecilina has become Cecilina White and recorded as daughter! 2 more children, Frank and Eva. They are in Surrey Street, Ryde in 1911 (Cecilina has gone). Regards Jon

    04/28/2017 05:22:43
    1. Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Jon Baker
    3. Robert Regarding Sarah Ann Williams (b1857 Alderney, in the 1871 census with William and Sarah). In 1891 census she is listed at 17 Mount Street, Ryde as Sarah White (30, born Alderney), wife of William White (30), together with 2 children, William and Ada, and (solving another mystery) sister-in-law Cicelna Williams, aged 6 (Cicelina). Sarah's age is out by about 3 years, she would have been about 33. Sarah and William married in 1883 at the Independent Chapel, High Street, Ventnor (IWFHS Marriages). The son William was born 1885, MMS (Mother Maiden Surname) Williams, Ada born 1887, again MMS Williams. In 1901 (Class: RG13; Piece: 1025; Folio: 51; Page: 2) the family are at 49 High Street, Ryde. Sarah is now 41. Cecilina has become Cecilina White and recorded as daughter! 2 more children, Frank and Eva. They are in Surrey Street, Ryde in 1911 (Cecilina has gone). Regards Jon -----Original Message----- I've been battling now for a few days to absorb what you are telling me and research it; although up until today; I've been rejecting the 2 families for William Henry WILLIAMS, but I am now coming around to accepting, but; it's the missing members of the 1st family that makes me wonder and that aside; what happened to the Ist Sarah Anne?

    04/27/2017 07:23:15
    1. Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Jon Baker
    3. Robert I forgot to stress one of the most important things in my earlier mail. The 1861 census. We know where both William Henry Williams were in 1861. (1) The one born in 1840 on the IW was in Bishops Waltham, Hampshire at the Kings Head. Aged 21, single, engine turner and fitter from Newport, IW (2) The one born 1833/34 in Devon was in Alderney with wife Sarah Ann and Daughter Sarah Ann (3), the daughter that appears with him in 1871 on the IW. Regards Jon -----Original Message-----

    04/27/2017 05:07:26
    1. Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Jon Baker
    3. Hi Robert Firstly just to confirm you are right, William henry and Sarah did have 8 children. I had missed William (1868-1868) from my mail although I had him in my rough notes. I also missed Cecilina Sarah (1885-), oversight due to the restriction on the IWFHS BMD search limit of 500 records - my excuse anyway :-) You are also correct in that William Henry Williams born 1840 was the son of John Williams and Elizabeth Loader, no doubt. He can be traced in 1841 (HO107/405/f6/p7) aged 1 living in Carisbrooke. In 1851 (Pan Mill Cottage, Carisbrooke), aged 11 born St Nicholas (this is the parish of Carisbrooke Castel, St Nicholas in Castro) and in 1861 at the Kings Head in Bishops Waltham (RG9/696/f53/p37) aged 21 born Newport IW. In 1861 he was described as an Engine Turner and Fitter. His age is absolutely consistent with his year of birth and his place of birth is consistent enough, Carisbrooke/Newport are often blurred. What happens to this William Henry after 1861 is a mystery. I am absolutely convinced this is not the same man as found in the 1871, 1891 and 1901 censuses where his age is consistently 6 years older than the other man (37, 57 and 67) and his place of birth is consistently given as Devonshire. He was 68 when he died in 1903 according to the GRO. The other point to bear in mind is the difference in occupation, in 1861 the William born 1840 is an Engine Fitter and Turner - a skilled occupation, whereas the older Devonshire William is a labourer - of course it is possible that he "downgraded" himself to a labourer after 1861 but to me it seems highly unlikely. You mentioned that you were not convinced that the family in the 1871 census were not the same as the 1881 because of the names of the children. In 1871 only William H (37), wife Sarah (28) and daughter Sarah (13, born Alderney) are recorded. The two eldest children born on the IW had both died in infancy, William aged 6 weeks and Mary Ann Clara aged 2 months, so neither would have been alive in 1871, the third child (William John Sims Williams) was born in 1872. Wife Sarah is only 15 years older than daughter Sarah, now children at 15 is of course possible, but I seriously doubt that this is the case here, Sarah (13) is William's daughter, Sarah's step-daughter. In 1881, though there is no sign of William, Sarah is there with the four surviving IW born children (William, Fanny M, Florence and (Annie) May) together with Betsy aged 16 (born Alderney). Betsy again pre-dates the marriage of William and Sarah on the Island in 1867. Betsy is usually a shortened version of Elizabeth, and Elizabeth Williams is found in Alderney in 1861, aged 6 with her Grandmother and Aunt at the Dolphin Inn (Sarah Wood and Isabella Wood). Going back to the 1861 census for Alderney, William is there with Sarah Ann (wife) and Sarah Ann (daughter, the same Sarah as in the 1871 census on the IW) and another daughter Mary, who we know nothing more about. They are living next door to Sarah Wood and Isabella Wood in Braze Road. I have to say the fact that we find two Williams daughters in the censuses both born in Alderney is compelling evidence to me that they were sisters. Alderney is such as small place (about 4000 people in 1861) that the chances of two different families called William and Sarah Williams living on the Isle of Wight with different daughters born in Alderney is infinitesimally small! Following on to 1881. Firstly it is a mystery where William henry is. The 1881 census shows Sarah as "Wife", specifically it does not show her as Head. Betsy is shown as Daughter, but this does not mean she is Sarah's daughter, because the column records the Relationship to the Head of the Household, in other words she is William's daughter. The census does not confirm any relationship to Sarah, you cannot imply anything from this record about whether Sarah and Betsy are Mother/daughter or Step-Mother/Step-daughter. Sarah then dies in 1885 and is buried in Godshill in 1885 on the 4th April. Interestingly Cecilina Sarah was born on the 1st April 1885 according to her Baptism record. We can speculate from this that Sarah may well have died due to complications with the birth of Cecilina - the death certificate would confirm. So William is left alone with a young family, and in 1891he is living in The Mall, Brading (RG12/893/F19/P17), recorded as a Widower, aged 57 from Devonshire, with children William (19), Florence A (12) and Annie M (10), consistent with the 1871 census, with the exception that Fanny has left the household. He remains at the same address in 1901, aged 67 and from Devonshire (RG13/1028/F20/P2), still a widower but living alone and of course dies a couple of years later, buried in Brading, consistent with his residence. So to conclude, the evidence is very strong that there are two different William Henry Williams, one born in 1840 in Carisbrooke, Isle of Wight (son of John Williams and Elizabeth Loader) and one born in 1883/34 in Devon. The latter is the husband of Sarah Sims, not the former. The critical piece of evidence that is missing is the marriage certificate for William and Sarah Sims, the information that is important from that document is the name of William's father, his marital status and his age. Even his marital status might be misleading, we have to accept that William Henry and Sarah Ann may not have ever married. I also never conclude anything based solely on the name of the father on a marriage certificate, it is one of the most misleading pieces of data available to family historians in my experience, but it can be used as another piece in a jigsaw to add weight to other information. I wonder if anyone based on the Isle of Wight could do a look up in the Newport Record Office to let you know the complete information on the marriage record - it should be recorded on the Card Index. Otherwise you will need to purchase the Certificate from the GRO or the Isle of Wight Register Office and that will take some time to reach you in Australia of course. Other mysteries resulting from this: (1) Where was William Henry in 1881? He was clearly alive. In such cases it often transpires that a missing person is in some form of institution; hospital, workhouse, prison, armed services (unlikely in this case). (2) What happened to Cecilina born in 1885. She clearly survives until December 1885, but afterwards I cannot find any reference to anyone named Cecilina or variants. She may have been known as Sarah of course (her middle name). Hope this all helps. Regards Jon -----Original Message----- From: Robert N. G. KEMSLEY [mailto:robtricia@optusnet.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 12:29 To: 'Jon Baker' <jon@vectisjon.com> Subject: RE: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867 Good evening Jon: I realise I am jumping the gun here, as I am still very much in the midst of responding to your previous message; thus far only getting up to the 1851 & 1861 Census re the SIMS family which I had all sorts of trouble in finding with the Surname incorrectly transcribed 1851 , plus John's age from 45 to 40? Re William Henry WILLIAMS b) 1840, Newport District, Isle of Wight? I've been wrong before and will be again, but; strive for perfection and if wrong; I like to be proved wrong, so that I can correct my findings. Re the 1871 Census, Wroxall: wherein Willian H WILLIAMS appears: To be honest: at the moment; I am not convinced that although it seems to be my family; I do not feel comfortable in accepting as the ages are not correct, nor are the children mentioned therein. Re William Henry WILLIAMS parents: Again right or wrong: I've them as John WILLIAMS & Elizabeth LOADER??? Re the 8 children born to William & Sarah: I obtained them from the Isle of Wight Family History Society and again; If I am wrong; then my whole research of late is incorrect and I would again have to start from scratch? Forgetting Betsy for the moment whom is a bit of a mystery: I've William & Sarah's children as follows: William b) 1868, Ryde District, Isle of Wight D) Dec 1/4 1868 IOW Mary Ann Clara b) 1869, Godshill District, IOW William John Sims b) 1872, Godshill, IOW Fanny Mary bp) 12 Jul 1874, Methodist Bible Christian , Wroxall, IOW Obed Augustus bp) 10 Dec 1876, Wroxall, IOW d) 1879, Godshill District, IOW Florence Amy bp) 30 Jan 1879, Methodist Bible Christian, Wroxall, IOW Annie May bp) 22 Jul 1880, Wroxall, IOW Cecilina Sarah bp) 3 Dec 1885, Wesleyan Methodist, Ryde District, IOW You mention Betsy & Sarah born on Alderney? I know of Betsy, not Sarah? What is the IW Census? And who is their Grandmother on Alderney and the 3rd Daughter? You mention Betsy is to old to be Sarah SIMS's Daughter? I've Betsy b) Abt 1865 and in the 1881 Census of Wroxall; Betsy is recorded as Sarah's Daughter? I think I will leave it at that for the moment; as I've been working away at since the day before yesterday in trying to sort it all out and be clear in my own mind which is just about worn out at the moment. I hopeful will get back to your previous message this evening or tomorrow. Many thanks; Robert Australia -----Original Message----- From: ISLE-OF-WIGHT [mailto:isle-of-wight-bounces+robtricia=optusnet.com.au@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jon Baker Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2017 7:05 PM To: 'Peter Booth'; Isle-of-Wight@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867 Peter/Robert The William Henry Williams birth in 1840 has thrown me a bit, I didn't see that originally. But that rather conflicts with the 1871 census that says he was born in Devonshire and also his age which suggests he was actually born in 1834 or thereabouts. The details of the marriage in 1867 to me remain critical, specifically the status of William when he married (bachelor or widower) and his father's name. I can't see 8 children born to William and Sarah on the Island, just the 6 I listed. There are two born on Alderney who appear in the IW censuses, Betsy (Elizabeth) and Sarah, and the link with their Grandmother on Alderney is clear (there is also the third daughter on Alderney, Mary who appears there in the 1861 census, but never appears on the IW). Both Betsy and Sarah are clearly too old to be daughters of Sarah Sims. Finding Birth records for the Alderney children will be difficult, they are not online for sure. I assume there is some way of getting birth certificates. Regards Jon Baker

    04/27/2017 04:21:06
    1. Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Peter Booth
    3. Robert / Jon, Just to add a bit more to the story, 1851 Channel Islands census has the family at Valdes Portes. Head is Thomas Wood c1810, wife Sarah c1805, children Thomas c1837, Sarah c1838, Mary c1840. All these are born in Devon. In addition there's Tryphena c1843, Betsey c1847 and Isabella c1849 born on Guernsey. So the probable scenario is that Thomas married Sarah in Devon about 1833 and they had three or four children before moving to Guernsey around 1841. Unfortunately I can't find them in Devon or Guernsey in 1841 census I can't find the marriage of Thomas & Sarah. There is a 1837 baptism of son Thomas at Musbury on Family Search and a possible son Marn (sic) born c1835. FreeBMD has birth registrations for children Thomas, Sarah & Mary at Axminster. I checked and Musbury is in Axminster Registration District. Thomas Snr dies between 1851 and 1861. Widow Sarah is an Innkeeper in 1861 & 1871 Her daughter Sarah Wood marries William Williams around 1857. Sarah dies about 1866 and William Williams re-marries Sarah Sims id Dec 1867 on IOW. Robert did have some reservations, so I hope he checks this out. Unfortunately, without records for the Channel Islands there is only so much that can be fully proven. Peter ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jon Baker" <jon@vectisjon.com> To: "'Peter Booth'" <pbo08596@bigpond.net.au>; Isle-of-Wight@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, 26 Apr, 2017 At 7:04 PM Subject: RE: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867 Peter/Robert The William Henry Williams birth in 1840 has thrown me a bit, I didn't see that originally. But that rather conflicts with the 1871 census that says he was born in Devonshire and also his age which suggests he was actually born in 1834 or thereabouts. The details of the marriage in 1867 to me remain critical, specifically the status of William when he married (bachelor or widower) and his father's name. I can't see 8 children born to William and Sarah on the Island, just the 6 I listed. There are two born on Alderney who appear in the IW censuses, Betsy (Elizabeth) and Sarah, and the link with their Grandmother on Alderney is clear (there is also the third daughter on Alderney, Mary who appears there in the 1861 census, but never appears on the IW). Both Betsy and Sarah are clearly too old to be daughters of Sarah Sims. Finding Birth records for the Alderney children will be difficult, they are not online for sure. I assume there is some way of getting birth certificates. Regards Jon Baker -----Original Message----- Jon, Well done. It looks like you've cracked it. I considered the prospect of an earlier marriage but then discounted it because Ancestry had mistranscribed the ages of William's wife Sarah in both 1861 and 1871. But even with correct ages going from 23 in 1861 to 28 in 1871, it should have warranted closer checking. It might have been more obvious except 1861 census only gave Sarah's birthplace as England. And finding Betsy (Elizabeth) in 1861 was probably a critical clue. Hopefully Robert can draw it all together and find supporting BDM records. Peter

    04/26/2017 03:43:01
    1. Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Peter Booth
    3. Jon, Well done. It looks like you've cracked it. I considered the prospect of an earlier marriage but then discounted it because Ancestry had mistranscribed the ages of William's wife Sarah in both 1861 and 1871. But even with correct ages going from 23 in 1861 to 28 in 1871, it should have warranted closer checking. It might have been more obvious except 1861 census only gave Sarah's birthplace as England. And finding Betsy (Elizabeth) in 1861 was probably a critical clue. Hopefully Robert can draw it all together and find supporting BDM records. Peter ------ Original Message ------ From: "Jon Baker" <jon@vectisjon.com> To: "'Robert N. G. KEMSLEY'" <robtricia@optusnet.com.au>; Isle-of-Wight@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 25 Apr, 2017 At 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867 Robert The marriage record for William Henry Williams and Sarah Sims at the Newport Primitive Methodist Chapel is probably key. I suspect from the census records that William Henry will be found to be a widower. It appears as though he married two different Sarahs. His first wife was Sarah Ann, probably Wood, and his second Sarah Sims. Sarah Sims was born 1842 on the IW (MMS Saunders), and shows up in the 1851 and 1861 census with Father John and Mother (in 1851) Mary (not sure what happened to Mary in 1861). She also has a brother Frank. 1851 reference, HO107/1665/118/10 (Wroxall) and 1861 reference RG9/660/99/5 also in Wroxall. In the 1871 census in Wroxall, William H aged 37 from Devonshire is recorded with wife Sara (Sims) aged 28 and daughter Sarah 13 born Alderney, clearly Sarah (13) is not the daughter of this Sarah (28). The 1861 census for Alderney shows William 26 and Sarah Ann 33 both born England and Sarah Ann aged 3 (there is also a daughter Mary aged 1, I have not found her later). The 1871 Alderney census shows Elizabeth Williams aged 6 living with her Grandmother Sarah Wood and her daughter Isabella Wood (unmarried, 21) at the Dolphin Inn on Alderney. Betsy is usually a shortened version of Elizabeth, Betsy aged 16 living with Sarah Williams (nee Sims) in Brookside Cottages, Wroxall. It looks like Sarah Williams (Sims) died in 1885, and was buried at Godshill All Saints 4 Apr 1885 in the same grave as Mary Ann Sims (Sarah's Mother) and Frank Sims (Sarah's brother), the ages don't seem quite right, as Sarah should be older than Frank, but otherwise this looks right. John Sims, Sarah's father is buried in the adjacent grave (see the IWFHS Monumental Inscriptions database). So William Henry Williams and Sarah Ann Wood? Had at least 3 children, Sarah Ann (1857), Mary (1859) and Elizabeth/Betsy (1864). William Henry Williams and Sarah Sims had 6 children, Mary Ann Clara (1869-1871), William John Sims (1872-), Fanny Maria/Mary (1874-), Obed Augustus (1876-1879), Florence Amy (1878-) and Annie May (1880-). Fanny Mary, Obed Augustus and Florence Amy baptised in Methodist Chapel, Wroxall. It looks like William Henry died in 1903 and is buried at Brading Congregational (there is no age on the Burial record, but the GRO index shows him to have been 68 years. Mary Ann Clara Williams was buried in Brading St Mary, aged 2 months. The remaining issues are finding William Henry's birth, according to the 1871 census in Devon and his first marriage, to Sarah Ann, hopefully Wood, maybe in the mid 1850s. I think the first thing you need to confirm is William's status when he married Sarah Sims in 1867, was he a Widower as I suspect. Hope this helps Jon Baker -----Original Message----- From: ISLE-OF-WIGHT [mailto:isle-of-wight-bounces+jon=vectisjon.com@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Robert N. G. KEMSLEY Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 01:19 To: Isle-of-Wight@rootsweb.com Subject: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867 I am currently researching William henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS who married Dec ¼ 1867, Isle of Wight. William & Sarah had 9 children to the best of my knowledge; finding the family in the 1861 & 1871 Census which are rather confusing; then finding Sarah & 5 of her children in the 1881 Census. As yet; I’ve been unable to find the family members prior to 1861 and after 1881 census. Sarah is said to have been Born Wroxall, as were some of the Children. Some of the children were Baptised Methodist Bible Christians, Wroxall and wonder if William & Sarah were also married there? Would there be any fellow list members researching this family or may be able to assist me with the research of this family? Robert Australia ************************************** You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    04/26/2017 04:12:24
    1. Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Jon Baker
    3. Peter/Robert The William Henry Williams birth in 1840 has thrown me a bit, I didn't see that originally. But that rather conflicts with the 1871 census that says he was born in Devonshire and also his age which suggests he was actually born in 1834 or thereabouts. The details of the marriage in 1867 to me remain critical, specifically the status of William when he married (bachelor or widower) and his father's name. I can't see 8 children born to William and Sarah on the Island, just the 6 I listed. There are two born on Alderney who appear in the IW censuses, Betsy (Elizabeth) and Sarah, and the link with their Grandmother on Alderney is clear (there is also the third daughter on Alderney, Mary who appears there in the 1861 census, but never appears on the IW). Both Betsy and Sarah are clearly too old to be daughters of Sarah Sims. Finding Birth records for the Alderney children will be difficult, they are not online for sure. I assume there is some way of getting birth certificates. Regards Jon Baker -----Original Message----- Jon, Well done. It looks like you've cracked it. I considered the prospect of an earlier marriage but then discounted it because Ancestry had mistranscribed the ages of William's wife Sarah in both 1861 and 1871. But even with correct ages going from 23 in 1861 to 28 in 1871, it should have warranted closer checking. It might have been more obvious except 1861 census only gave Sarah's birthplace as England. And finding Betsy (Elizabeth) in 1861 was probably a critical clue. Hopefully Robert can draw it all together and find supporting BDM records. Peter

    04/26/2017 04:04:33
    1. Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Peter Booth
    3. Robert, For what it's worth, I draw your attention to the Channel Islands census of 1861 where at Alderney you find William Williams 26, wife Sarah 23, (mistranscribed as 13 on Ancestry) and daughters Sarah 3 and Mary 1. Then I draw your attention to 1871 census for Hampshire, where at Newchurch you find William 37, born Devonshire, Sarah 28 (again mistranscribed as 23) born Godshill IOW, and daughter Sarah 13 born Alderney. It looks like Mary has died, and there is no sign of Betsy who appears in 1881 census with the family and is supposedly born c1865 at Alderney. I'm not sure where you find BDM records for the Channel Islands, but it may be worth a try. I suspected William may have died before 1881, but couldn't get a match on approx age. I You would also expect Sarah to marry about this time, but couldn't pin it down. It may be worth a look at 1881 census for any Sarah born c1857 in Channel Islands. I did see a couple of trees for Albert Kemsley & Florence Williams. But only one had any suggestions for parents of Florence. And they have William & Sarah born c1856, meaning they would be under 5 years old when their first two daughters were born on Alderney. I found Methodist Baptisms for Fanny, Obed, Florence & Annie May and they also look to be on civil records at FreeBMD. But I wonder why William, Mary & William would not be there also, unless they didn't move from Channel Islands until just before 1871 census. Peter ------ Original Message ------ From: "Peter Booth" <pbo08596@bigpond.net.au> To: Isle-of-Wight@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 25 Apr, 2017 At 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867 Robert, I can see what you mean about being tricky. I'm struggling to get anywhere. If you haven't done so already, I'd suggest focussing on matching BDM records on FreeBMD to 1881 census to ensure the census data is correct. I'd also look to find a birth of Betsy on the Channel Islands as indicated by 1881 census. If she was born 1865, I wonder in the 1867 marriage in Isle of Wight is correct. Can you also advise who Florence married? Have you found her in 1901 or 1911? Does that data agree with age and birthplace from 1881. Peter ------ Original Message ------ From: "Robert N. G. KEMSLEY" <robtricia@optusnet.com.au> To: Isle-of-Wight@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 25 Apr, 2017 At 10:19 AM Subject: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867 I am currently researching William henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS who married Dec ¼ 1867, Isle of Wight. William & Sarah had 9 children to the best of my knowledge; finding the family in the 1861 & 1871 Census which are rather confusing; then finding Sarah & 5 of her children in the 1881 Census. As yet; I’ve been unable to find the family members prior to 1861 and after 1881 census. Sarah is said to have been Born Wroxall, as were some of the Children. Some of the children were Baptised Methodist Bible Christians, Wroxall and wonder if William & Sarah were also married there? Would there be any fellow list members researching this family or may be able to assist me with the research of this family? Robert Australia ************************************** You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ************************************** You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    04/25/2017 02:41:41
    1. Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Peter Booth
    3. Robert, I can see what you mean about being tricky. I'm struggling to get anywhere. If you haven't done so already, I'd suggest focussing on matching BDM records on FreeBMD to 1881 census to ensure the census data is correct. I'd also look to find a birth of Betsy on the Channel Islands as indicated by 1881 census. If she was born 1865, I wonder in the 1867 marriage in Isle of Wight is correct. Can you also advise who Florence married? Have you found her in 1901 or 1911? Does that data agree with age and birthplace from 1881. Peter ------ Original Message ------ From: "Robert N. G. KEMSLEY" <robtricia@optusnet.com.au> To: Isle-of-Wight@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 25 Apr, 2017 At 10:19 AM Subject: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867 I am currently researching William henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS who married Dec ¼ 1867, Isle of Wight. William & Sarah had 9 children to the best of my knowledge; finding the family in the 1861 & 1871 Census which are rather confusing; then finding Sarah & 5 of her children in the 1881 Census. As yet; I’ve been unable to find the family members prior to 1861 and after 1881 census. Sarah is said to have been Born Wroxall, as were some of the Children. Some of the children were Baptised Methodist Bible Christians, Wroxall and wonder if William & Sarah were also married there? Would there be any fellow list members researching this family or may be able to assist me with the research of this family? Robert Australia ************************************** You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    04/25/2017 09:09:33
    1. Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Ros Fletcher
    3. Hi Robert, If you look up the "IOW FHS" website you will find a comprehensive database for BMDs. There is a marriage for William Henry WILLIAMS and Sarah SIMS in 1867 at the Primitive Methodist Chapel in Newport. You will also find possible births for both. I have WILLIAMS ancestors from Newport so we may find a connection if you have a little more detail. All the best .... Ros (Melbourne). Sent from my iPad > On 25 Apr 2017, at 10:19 AM, Robert N. G. KEMSLEY <robtricia@optusnet.com.au> wrote: > > I am currently researching William henry WILLIAMS & Sarah > SIMS who married Dec ¼ 1867, Isle of Wight. > > > > William & Sarah had 9 children to the best of my knowledge; > finding the family in the 1861 & 1871 Census which are rather confusing; > then finding Sarah & 5 of her children in the 1881 Census. > > > > As yet; I’ve been unable to find the family members prior to > 1861 and after 1881 census. > > > > Sarah is said to have been Born Wroxall, as were some of the > Children. > > > > Some of the children were Baptised Methodist Bible > Christians, Wroxall and wonder if William & Sarah were also married there? > > > > Would there be any fellow list members researching this > family or may be able to assist me with the research of this family? > > > > Robert > > > > Australia > > > > > > > ************************************** > You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: > Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    04/25/2017 08:10:01
    1. Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Jon Baker
    3. Robert The marriage record for William Henry Williams and Sarah Sims at the Newport Primitive Methodist Chapel is probably key. I suspect from the census records that William Henry will be found to be a widower. It appears as though he married two different Sarahs. His first wife was Sarah Ann, probably Wood, and his second Sarah Sims. Sarah Sims was born 1842 on the IW (MMS Saunders), and shows up in the 1851 and 1861 census with Father John and Mother (in 1851) Mary (not sure what happened to Mary in 1861). She also has a brother Frank. 1851 reference, HO107/1665/118/10 (Wroxall) and 1861 reference RG9/660/99/5 also in Wroxall. In the 1871 census in Wroxall, William H aged 37 from Devonshire is recorded with wife Sara (Sims) aged 28 and daughter Sarah 13 born Alderney, clearly Sarah (13) is not the daughter of this Sarah (28). The 1861 census for Alderney shows William 26 and Sarah Ann 33 both born England and Sarah Ann aged 3 (there is also a daughter Mary aged 1, I have not found her later). The 1871 Alderney census shows Elizabeth Williams aged 6 living with her Grandmother Sarah Wood and her daughter Isabella Wood (unmarried, 21) at the Dolphin Inn on Alderney. Betsy is usually a shortened version of Elizabeth, Betsy aged 16 living with Sarah Williams (nee Sims) in Brookside Cottages, Wroxall. It looks like Sarah Williams (Sims) died in 1885, and was buried at Godshill All Saints 4 Apr 1885 in the same grave as Mary Ann Sims (Sarah's Mother) and Frank Sims (Sarah's brother), the ages don't seem quite right, as Sarah should be older than Frank, but otherwise this looks right. John Sims, Sarah's father is buried in the adjacent grave (see the IWFHS Monumental Inscriptions database). So William Henry Williams and Sarah Ann Wood? Had at least 3 children, Sarah Ann (1857), Mary (1859) and Elizabeth/Betsy (1864). William Henry Williams and Sarah Sims had 6 children, Mary Ann Clara (1869-1871), William John Sims (1872-), Fanny Maria/Mary (1874-), Obed Augustus (1876-1879), Florence Amy (1878-) and Annie May (1880-). Fanny Mary, Obed Augustus and Florence Amy baptised in Methodist Chapel, Wroxall. It looks like William Henry died in 1903 and is buried at Brading Congregational (there is no age on the Burial record, but the GRO index shows him to have been 68 years. Mary Ann Clara Williams was buried in Brading St Mary, aged 2 months. The remaining issues are finding William Henry's birth, according to the 1871 census in Devon and his first marriage, to Sarah Ann, hopefully Wood, maybe in the mid 1850s. I think the first thing you need to confirm is William's status when he married Sarah Sims in 1867, was he a Widower as I suspect. Hope this helps Jon Baker -----Original Message----- From: ISLE-OF-WIGHT [mailto:isle-of-wight-bounces+jon=vectisjon.com@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Robert N. G. KEMSLEY Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 01:19 To: Isle-of-Wight@rootsweb.com Subject: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867 I am currently researching William henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS who married Dec ¼ 1867, Isle of Wight. William & Sarah had 9 children to the best of my knowledge; finding the family in the 1861 & 1871 Census which are rather confusing; then finding Sarah & 5 of her children in the 1881 Census. As yet; I’ve been unable to find the family members prior to 1861 and after 1881 census. Sarah is said to have been Born Wroxall, as were some of the Children. Some of the children were Baptised Methodist Bible Christians, Wroxall and wonder if William & Sarah were also married there? Would there be any fellow list members researching this family or may be able to assist me with the research of this family? Robert Australia ************************************** You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    04/25/2017 06:18:30
    1. Re: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Peter Booth
    3. Robert, Could you provide more information about names, ages and where you found them in 1871 & 1881. I had trouble identifying them. Was Sarah shown as a widow perhaps? I'm not sure of your meaning about finding the family in 1861. You say they didn't marry until 1867. There are no trees for this couple on Ancestry. Peter in Sydney ------ Original Message ------ From: "Robert N. G. KEMSLEY" <robtricia@optusnet.com.au> To: Isle-of-Wight@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 25 Apr, 2017 At 10:19 AM Subject: [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867 I am currently researching William henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS who married Dec ¼ 1867, Isle of Wight. William & Sarah had 9 children to the best of my knowledge; finding the family in the 1861 & 1871 Census which are rather confusing; then finding Sarah & 5 of her children in the 1881 Census. As yet; I’ve been unable to find the family members prior to 1861 and after 1881 census. Sarah is said to have been Born Wroxall, as were some of the Children. Some of the children were Baptised Methodist Bible Christians, Wroxall and wonder if William & Sarah were also married there? Would there be any fellow list members researching this family or may be able to assist me with the research of this family? Robert Australia ************************************** You can contact the Isle of Wight List Administrator by emailing: Isle-of-Wight-Admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ISLE-OF-WIGHT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    04/25/2017 06:10:31
    1. [IoW] Seeking to find William Henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS Married Dec 1/4 1867
    2. Robert N. G. KEMSLEY
    3. I am currently researching William henry WILLIAMS & Sarah SIMS who married Dec ¼ 1867, Isle of Wight. William & Sarah had 9 children to the best of my knowledge; finding the family in the 1861 & 1871 Census which are rather confusing; then finding Sarah & 5 of her children in the 1881 Census. As yet; I’ve been unable to find the family members prior to 1861 and after 1881 census. Sarah is said to have been Born Wroxall, as were some of the Children. Some of the children were Baptised Methodist Bible Christians, Wroxall and wonder if William & Sarah were also married there? Would there be any fellow list members researching this family or may be able to assist me with the research of this family? Robert Australia

    04/25/2017 04:19:28
    1. [IoW] Loader
    2. Ann Barrett
    3. Regarding the grave of Charles and Maria Loader, it has now been completely cleared and new photographs and description have been put on the RSHG website Ann Barrett Sent from my iPad

    03/02/2017 12:38:37
    1. [IoW] ISLE-OF-WIGHT Digest, Vol 12, Issue 3
    2. Many thanks to all the kind people who replied re: Maria LOADER (Mrs. Charles LOADER) you have more than answered my query. Ta nicely, Brian in West Oz. Sent from Mail for Windows 10

    02/27/2017 07:20:04