Hello Fellow Listers, In responding to Paul's further contribution to this discussion, let me first of all clarify that I do not indulge in making "disparaging" remarks about other contributors on this, or any other, public forum. My use of quotation marks in referring generally to "professional" genealogists was purely to distinguish between those who make a living through ancestral research and those of us who are endeavouring to discover our family heritage for ourselves. No offence was intended and I'm surprised that it was interpreted as such. I actually said that "very few of us" could afford the fees entailed in engaging a professional to do the research for us. I felt it safer to presume that most people engaged in researching their family history were predominantly "ordinary" folk, who do not have money to burn, rather than the reverse. If the example I gave of the charges quoted by the Wicklow Family History Centre are not - in my opinion - somewhat exorbitant, then I don't know what is. (Please, no one take offence at my use of quotes around the word ordinary - it's actually meant as a compliment!). That all said, there is really much that Paul and I agree upon. It is purely on the question of internet use that we differ. Whilst I respect Paul's views I do think it important that an opposing view is equally stated, otherwise a complete newcomer to genealogy might well be deterred from using the internet to its full potential. In the pursuit of knowledge - any knowledge - is there any one source that holds the ultimate truth? I don't believe so. For as many "bad" internet sites that exist, there are equally as many "bad" books and, dare I suggest, "bad" records. Surely I'm not alone in discovering inaccurate information contained in BMD certificates, Parish Registers and Census Returns. For all these records rely on human beings to impart the information contained within them and, as we all know, humans are not immune from making mistakes - or even fibbing! Now - if we don't occasionally read a "bad" book, how do we judge what is a good one? Similarly with the internet. Fortunately, I haven't yet encountered any of the areas of misinformation that Paul refers to in my own research. Perhaps it would be helpful if he could name some of these sites, so that we can protect ourselves from them. With regard to the availability of Irish records or resources on the internet, I find them to be woefully inadequate. The LDS site and its IGI only sparsely cover Ireland and there is next to nothing on Wicklow. In any event, the IGI is notoriously incomplete and riddled with errors, a fact most newcomers quickly pick up on, and seek further corroboration from parish registers and other documents. Despite all this, the IGI is an excellent reference point from which to launch further investigations and, as such, is highly valued as an aid to research. No, my criticism with Irish Records is that there is no equivalent to the UK's GRO Indices or census returns on the internet. Many of us may have only a vague idea of the BMD dates for our ancestors and the introduction of these resources onto the internet would prove to be invaluable when trying to track them down. In conclusion, I have to say that I believe people should feel free to pursue whatever direction they choose in pursuit of knowledge - genealogical or otherwise. If this means that, along the way, we receive some duff information or make mistakes, then so be it. For isn't this half the fascination and fun of our wonderful pursuit, and don't we also learn invaluable lessons from these mistakes? Internet users inhabiting "cyberspace" are not, generally, stupid and even brand new entrants into this fascinating world quite quickly learn to distinguish between the "good" and "bad". By all means offer help and guidance where it is required, but don't insult the intelligence of enquirers when doing so. "Marie" is under no illusions when it comes to the spread of misinformation - we get plenty of it from our politicians, lawyers, estate agents, bankers, businessmen and any others who attempt to control us. I trust that I am quite well able, therefore, to cast a cynical eye upon any such misinformation that comes my way on the internet. I firmly believe that most other users are equally adept. Since starting out on my own ancestral journey, just a few years ago, the internet has brought me into contact with some wonderful people all over the world, who have provided me with enormous amounts of information and advice. This, I treasure and it is in defence of such "second hand" helpers that I was initially prompted to join in the debate. The views I've expressed are purely my own and I wouldn't dream of imposing them upon anyone else - take them or leave them. All I would say is that, surely, any pursuit should, above all, be about joy and to deprive or restrict us in the use of the internet would kill much of that emotion. With warm regards to everyone, Marie. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Gorry" <gorry@indigo.ie> To: <IRL-WICKLOW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 6:29 PM Subject: [Wicklow] Re: Read a Book - An alternative View > Marie wrote:<snip>

Marie wrote: <snip> I actually said that "very few of us" could afford the fees entailed in > engaging a professional to do the research for us. I felt it safer to > presume that most people engaged in researching their family history were > predominantly "ordinary" folk, who do not have money to burn, rather than > the reverse. If the example I gave of the charges quoted by the Wicklow > Family History Centre are not - in my opinion - somewhat exorbitant, then I > don't know what is. (Please, no one take offence at my use of quotes around > the word ordinary - it's actually meant as a compliment!). I really have to reply to this. As a professional genealogist I take exception to the suggestion that 'ordinary' people could not afford my fees. As Cara knows, I am not taking any new clients for the foreseeable future due to writing commitments, so I'm not touting for business here. With a few exceptions, I would say that the hundreds of clients I have worked for over the past 26 years are 'ordinary' people. You do not have to be a millionaire to engage the services of a professional genealogist. I presume 'ordinary' people are used to paying professional fees to doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants, car mechanics and plumbers. The difference between paying one of those professionals and engaging a genealogist is that they provide essential services, while genealogy is a hobby, a luxuary. There is nothing extraordinary about the fees charged by professional genealogists and, unlike doctors, lawyers or accountants, they will tell you up front what their hourly fee is. Marie quotes the charges made by Wicklow Family History Centre as an example of what professional genealogists charge. They provide an entirely different service. They are an indexing centre. They indexed church and other records and, for a fee determined by them, they provide information from their indexes. They are not what is termed 'professional genealogists'. This is the definition of a professional genealogist in the current Constitution of the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland (APGI): "A genealogist is one who conducts genealogical research in primary and secondary sources, who assesses the findings, determines further sources or constructs a pedigree, and who compiles a written account of the completed research. A professional genealogist earns his/her living by such work." If you engage a professional genealogist you should get the benefit of their expertise as well as their research time. If you just want a record examined or a document asearched for, you should engage a record agent instead. If you want an indexing centre to check their indexes, you engage the indexing centre's services. They're three entirely different services. And the thing about it is that you can choose to do the research yourself without engaging anyone's services. The indexing centres have exclusive access to their indexes, but the actual records are freely available elsewhere. Paul Gorry

Hello Paul, I hope you don't mind me addressing you directly on a public forum but, as our debate has so far been conducted on the board and others have also participated, I thought it more appropriate than approaching you off-list. I'm sorry that you have taken exception to my remarks about fees paid to professionals. I can assure you that they were in no way directed at you personally, nor to any of your colleagues in the field. My point in referring to fees at all was to highlight the economic difficulties that many, less fortunate, people can experience when they choose to embark upon their family history investigations. It was also raised within the context of my remarks about the digitising of various records and making them more easily accessible to the general public. I know personally many unemployed, elderly, and sick or disabled people, most of whom have to rely upon some very meagre state benefits. I also come into contact with many youngsters, studying under the burden of student loans, who similarly struggle in their daily lives. There are any number of internet users who find themselves in like circumstances. You mention fees paid to various other professionals - and herein lies the shame. In the UK people's dental health, in particular, is being sadly neglected because more and more dentists are no longer taking on NHS patients, who then simply cannot afford the fees to go private - so their teeth rot. Lawyers' and accountants' fees are largely irrelevant to the class of people I've alluded to - they don't employ them. Obviously, I have no way of knowing how many people on the internet suffering these disadvantages are actually engaged in family history research, but I have had several email conversations with a fair number who are. For people in their circumstances, even a reasonable fee will be beyond their reach. There are, of course, those who would prefer to do their own research and again, bearing in mind my intended context, the releasing of official records into the public domain - via the net or in CD format - would be a godsend. I trust this explanation on my part will alleviate any doubts you may have as to my intentions. Perhaps I should have referred, in general terms, to the costs that can be incurred (and accrued!) in setting out on this pursuit, rather than using the word "professional?" Thank you very much for clarifying the situation regarding the Wicklow Family History Centre and the three different services that are available within the genealogy field. In view of what you say, it looks like I'll have an awful lot of "foot slogging" to do once I finally get down to thoroughly tracing my Irish ancestors! Thanks for the discussion, Paul. I hope others have found it interesting too. Best wishes, Marie. ----- Original Message ----- > Marie wrote:<snip>