Hi All I receved the marriage cert for my gg grandparents as follows, I have some queries re the content and hope to get some thoughts. Im hopng some of you have experence with parish records from this church. 4th March 1847 Wicklow Church John NILE bachelor a labourer residence Castle McAdam Coy Wicklow- father John Nile labourer Bridget SULAVAN spinster residence Wicklow- father Patrick Sulavan labourer both of full age. Wtnesses Wlliam McPhail John Milar/Nilan???(dare I even think a bad version of Niles) Curate John Eccles married by licence John Niles signed hs name, Bridget made a mark. This has certainly made my day and got me thinking. Does anyone know whether the witnesses are regulars to save me wondering if they are related/connected to John and Bridget? I have found a Wlliam McPhail knocking about Wcklow Town in Trade Directories and am dubious as to whether he would be a labourers friend, I also found a McPhail listed as beng a church organist there suggestng links with the church rather than my rellies. Does anyone know whether Johns residence- Castle McAdam will have been specific to the village or the area in general? Would Johns beng able to write his name suggest he may have been the non catholic, Im thinking he may have had the chance to go to school etc etc. John and Bridget baptised all kids catholic Avoca Parish from 1847. All thoughts as ever welcome. carol

I noticed that Carol came up with the same question that has been on my mind lately. As I try to break down the bricks, I have now started looking at marriage witnesses, out of desperation .....I would love to know what experience others have had in connecting witnesses with the marriage couple? Is it fairly normal for the Irish to have brought their own to the wedding... or is that a more recent custom? m Mary Villalba AZTEC Communications, LLC (303) 290-8415 Tele Distinguished Past Governor, Rocky Mountain District Kiwanis International "A global organization of volunteers, dedicated to changing the world, one child and one community at a time." -------------------------------------------------- > > This has certainly made my day and got me thinking. > > Does anyone know whether the witnesses are regulars to save me > wondering if they are related/connected to John and Bridget? I have >

Evening all. While I cannot speak for my Irish family I van say that I have found Brothers , Sisters, Bother-in Law and Sister-in -Law [including some who have not officially connected with the family at the time of the marriage. This part of the Family came from South Shields , Durham England and happened in several generations. Regards to all Peter Collins Cheltenham UK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Villalba" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-WICKLOW] relation to witnesses I would love to know what > experience others have had in connecting witnesses with the marriage > couple? > Is it fairly normal for the Irish to have brought their own to the > wedding... or is that a more recent custom?

I am glad you asked this question.  I recently made a special database in Excel for witnesses to marriages and godparents at baptisms, to get a handle on finding out whom these people were and if they were related.  .   At this point it only created more questions about these individuals. One that got my attention was Catherine Mahar. She was a witness to the marriage of my g. grandparents, John Darcy of Co Clare and Mary Moran of Co Kildare, at Notre Dame in Montreal, Quebec, in April 1853. Her name appeared again in April 1855 as godmother to their son, Patrick, when he was baptized in Boston, Mass. I have yet been able to find out who she was.  There was a Catherine Mahar listed in Griffiths Evaluation in Co Kildare near Mary's father, John Moran, years earlier, but I doubt if it was here.  She must have stayed in Boston, as her name never appeared again after they moved to Texas in 1859.   The only surname that appeared in the list that was the same as one in my lineage was Moran.  Margaret and Michael Moran were listed as godparents of John and Mary's first child, Margaret, who was baptized at Notre Dame in Montreal in 1853. Mary Moran Darcy did not have a sibling named Michael, so I am wondering if he was a cousin, or, was this just someone they knew in Montreal who was of Irish origin and had the same surname as Mary’s maiden name.   .   I called it the "relation to the mysterious witness."   Joseph Sealy, Texas  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Villalba" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-WICKLOW] relation to witnesses I would love to know what experience others have had in connecting witnesses with the marriage couple? Is it fairly normal for the Irish to have brought their own to the wedding... or is that a more recent custom?

John Milar sometimes Meyler was a miner so he would have been a known friend or work colleague. McPhail name in Wicklow town is associated with the Newspaper there much later than your time frame so this man could have been a fore runner of that name All this data simply matches mine now so where are we I have finally read the thoughts on marriage Witnesses and Baptism witnesses I am now probably going to open a storm or a deluge of whatever. Parish registers for Roman Catholic have Witnesses and sponsors now lets stick to the RC side of things in this part of my thoughts, and not be messing them up with Church of Ireland. Roman Catholic thoughts......... 1- You need to know if they were churched or front roomed married meaning were they married in a church? because some of these churches as you see them, TODAY did not exist back then. But the parish man kept a book he entered names into when he remembered of course, we must allow that some marriages will never be located. Burnt registers- lost registers, and all that guff. So obviously some of the early witnesses lets say before 1845 would have been family, or neighbour within the homeor beside the home Marriages occurred in the down time of farming and not always on a weekend ( still dont in Ireland) Common practice here in Australia was to wed on a weekend. I did see that someone raised the point that witnesses were oft clerks etc within the church circle as is the case of the Dempsey family at Avoca. I would not say that every witness you found on a certificate was related to the family in question getting married or having a baptism done.( Both religions) If that was the case I could certainly give you plenty of witnesses for the Co Wicklow area that may sort the family out for some of you ...........but you would need to know who you were looking for. As Peggy has stated the Baptisms for Avoca do not or most often do not state the mothers maiden name. I myself over a period of many years working in these registers have made in roads into maiden names, but some are simply based on a time frame and as I say, *its not for me to prove it its up to you to check it all out* I like Peggy can only do my very best or very worst for you all. Church of Ireland marriages before or up until 1845 appear to have mostly the father as a witness.........or an older brother in the registers I have transcribed BUT yet again that is not set in cement. Also you need to look at the customs of the time- Mothers of child just birthed ( RC) did not take the child for baptism if done in the first few hours of birth that could be a neighbour a grandmother even the mid wife and no doubt the clergy arrived on horse back and did that at home as well. So the child when baptised at the Church Service ............ was this where the RC people gave their children more names ???? just thought I might ask that as I see a child can be registered Patrick Toole and ends up when he is located in the church parish register as Patrick Joseph John Michael Toole etc .......... Church of Ireland well thats a custom in itself Child was not baptised or christened within the church they have a presentation thing and more than likely the child having been baptised at home. So there fore arises the thought from me- if the Child was born at home............and not within a bulls roar of the mother's family then who did stand for her child in the Church of Ireland congregation no one I assume no sponsors on records for babies baptism in the early days . So there you are my ten cents worth for you all to diagree with or add your thoughts to. It is a most interesting subject. Cheers from here Cara

Cara This is a great pile of useful information. I am sure it will add to the knowledge of all of us. regards Paddy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cara_Links" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 10:53 AM Subject: [IRL-WICKLOW] DEM SULLIVANS AND WITNESSES > John Milar sometimes Meyler was a miner so he would have been a known > friend or work colleague. > > McPhail name in Wicklow town is associated with the Newspaper there much > later than your time frame so > this man could have been a fore runner of that name > All this data simply matches mine now so where are we > > I have finally read the thoughts on marriage Witnesses and Baptism > witnesses > > > I am now probably going to open a storm or a deluge of whatever. > > Parish registers for Roman Catholic have Witnesses and sponsors now lets > stick to the RC side of things in this > part of my thoughts, and not be messing them up with Church of Ireland. > > Roman Catholic thoughts......... > 1- You need to know if they were churched or front roomed married meaning > were they married in a church? because some of these churches as you see > them, > TODAY did not exist back then. But the parish man kept a book he entered > names into when he remembered of course, we must allow that some marriages > will never be located. > Burnt registers- lost registers, and all that guff. > > So obviously some of the early witnesses lets say before 1845 would have > been family, or neighbour within the homeor beside the home > Marriages occurred in the down time of farming and not always on a weekend > ( still dont in Ireland) Common practice here in Australia was to wed on a > weekend. > I did see that someone raised the point that witnesses were oft clerks > etc > within the church circle as is the case of the Dempsey family at Avoca. > > I would not say that every witness you found on a certificate was related > to > the family in question getting married or having a baptism done.( Both > religions) > If that was the case I could certainly give you plenty of witnesses for > the > Co Wicklow area that may sort the family out for some of you > ...........but > you would need to know who you were looking for. > As Peggy has stated the Baptisms for Avoca do not or most often do not > state the mothers maiden name. I myself over a period of many years > working > in these registers have made in roads into maiden names, but some are > simply > based on a time frame and as I say, *its not for me to prove it its up to > you to check it all out* I like Peggy can only do my very best or very > worst > for you all. > > Church of Ireland marriages before or up until 1845 appear to have mostly > the father as a witness.........or an older brother in the registers I > have > transcribed BUT yet again > that is not set in cement. > > Also you need to look at the customs of the time- > Mothers of child just birthed ( RC) did not take the child for baptism if > done in the first few hours of birth that could be a neighbour a > grandmother even the mid wife and no doubt the clergy > arrived on horse back and did that at home as well. > So the child when baptised at the Church Service ............ was this > where > the RC people gave their children more names ???? just thought I might ask > that as I see a child can be registered Patrick Toole and ends up when he > is > located in the church parish register as Patrick Joseph John Michael Toole > etc .......... > > Church of Ireland well thats a custom in itself > Child was not baptised or christened within the church they have a > presentation thing and more than likely the child having been baptised at > home. > So there fore arises the thought from me- if the Child was born at > home............and not within a bulls roar of the mother's family then > who > did stand for her child in the Church of Ireland congregation > no one I assume no sponsors on records for babies baptism in the early > days > . > > So there you are my ten cents worth for you all to diagree with or add > your > thoughts to. > > It is a most interesting subject. > > Cheers from here > Cara > > *************************************** > 1- Only leave in the body of the mail what is relevant to your answer > > 2- Change the SUBJECT LINE to suit the body of your own Mail to List. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09 18:01:00

Cara, you said regarding Church of Ireland baptisms "Church of Ireland well thats a custom in itself Child was not baptised or christened within the church they have a presentation thing and more than likely the child having been baptised at home." Just to clear up any confusion, Church of Ireland children were indeed baptised in the church as evidenced by the presense of baptismal fonts in all Church of Ireland churches. However as the church did not believe in Limbo, there was not a sense of urgency as there was in the Catholic church, therefore the child was often baptised months after the birth. Jane

PS: forgot to mention....the witnesses/sponsors to my baptism and that of my sisters were family friends. Each of us girls had our own husband and wife team, that in my case, I was very close to. We were told as children that if anything was to happen to our parents we would be raised by the Godparents. I got my first prayer book, and first bible from my Godparents, who took it very seriously. Since my mother had no siblings in the US she had no family to stand in....Interestingly, my Godparents were also witnesses for my parents' marriage. m Mary Villalba AZTEC Communications, LLC (303) 290-8415 Tele Distinguished Past Governor, Rocky Mountain District Kiwanis International "A global organization of volunteers, dedicated to changing the world, one child and one community at a time."

Ah, yes....now I remember.....us COI, COE, Anglican, Episcopal Protestants don't believe in Limbo!!! Bet not too many younger church goers have ever heard that term! m Mary Villalba AZTEC Communications, LLC (303) 290-8415 Tele Distinguished Past Governor, Rocky Mountain District Kiwanis International "A global organization of volunteers, dedicated to changing the world, one child and one community at a time." -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jane Daly" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 7:08 AM To: "Cara_Links" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [IRL-WICKLOW] DEM SULLIVANS AND WITNESSES > Cara, you said regarding Church of Ireland baptisms > > "Church of Ireland well thats a custom in itself > Child was not baptised or christened within the church they have a > presentation thing and more than likely the child having been baptised at > home." > > Just to clear up any confusion, Church of Ireland children were indeed > baptised in the church as evidenced by the presense of baptismal fonts in > all Church of Ireland churches. However as the church did not believe in > Limbo, there was not a sense of urgency as there was in the Catholic > church, > therefore the child was often baptised months after the birth. > > Jane > *************************************** > 1- Only leave in the body of the mail what is relevant to your answer > > 2- Change the SUBJECT LINE to suit the body of your own Mail to List. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >