Dear Cara, I read with alarm the description you were given of someone’s recent visit to the National Library of Ireland. I don’t know when this visit took place but I would be quite disappointed if it happened since 1st July 2011. First of all, it would help people’s understanding of the situation if the institution was referred to by its real name – the National Library of Ireland [NLI], in Kildare Street, Dublin . It’s confusing even to me (a regular NLI reader) when it’s referred to as ‘the Dublin Library’. That’s because Dublin City Library & Archive is the name of a different institution in Pearse Street, Dublin. The first section of the NLI to which your correspondent refers is called the Genealogical Advisory Service (it’s not the Genealogical Office, which has been downgraded almost to extinction by the NLI over the past decade). The second section of the Library to which he / she refers is the lower Microfilm Room, where the microfilms of Roman Catholic parish registers are accessed. Further up the stairs is the main Reading Room. Off that is the upper Microfilm Room, where microfilms of everything OTHER THAN RC parish registers are accessed. The Genealogical Advisory Service [GAS] was set up in 1989 at the Genealogical Office (further down Kildare Street). It was established as part of what became known as the Irish Genealogical Project – a government-backed initiative to promote tourism through genealogy. The GAS was run under the auspices of the Chief Herald by the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland [APGI] in conjunction with staff members. There was a charge for the service and the consultation lasted an hour. In 1998 the GAS was transferred up to the National Library’s main building so that it would relieve congestion at the counter at the desk of the Reading Room. It was also made a free service. It continued to be run by APGI members in conjunction with NLI staff but eventually it was left to APGI to operate. Contrary to general perception, the APGI members who ran the GAS were not volunteers. They were professionals paid by the NLI to impart their expertise to visitors. They advised on the best method of finding information on the visitor’s specific family and explained how to use the relevant records. This could involve records accessed in the NLI, in another record repository in Dublin or Belfast, a local library or indeed contacting an indexing (or ‘heritage’) centre. Because the visitor was no longer paying for the consultation, he / she could be given a 10-20 minute advisory session and sent on their way to research the first steps. They were then free to come back for more. The GAS worked so well that the National Archives in Bishop Street, Dublin, asked APGI to run a similar service at its premises. This began in 2003. The following year both services were visited on behalf of the LDS (the Mormon Church) by a genealogist surveying genealogical research services in various countries. In 2005 he communicated to APGI that the GAS at the National Library and the National Archives in Dublin provided the best services he had seen during his survey. In January 2007 the National Library discontinued its association with APGI. From that point forward the GAS room was run by NLI staff members, supplemented by students or interns engaged during summer months. This summer the NLI engaged APGI members to provide ‘emergency cover’ to help staff members during the months of July-September. There is one APGI member on duty each day (Mon-Fri), 10am-1pm & 2pm-5pm. The APGI member is identifiable by the blue APGI badge they wear. Sometime almost a year ago the NLI made the decision to change the system of accessing microfilms of RC parish registers in the lower Microfilm Room. Instead of placing an order for up to 3 films at a time in the main Reading Room, members of the public (without the need for a reader’s ticket) could help themselves to films from cabinets in the lower Microfilm Room. Despite the NLI being approached by many regular readers about the inadvisability of such a free-for-all, that ‘system’ remains. A few months ago a major change was made in the NLI, one not touched on at all by the person who advised Cara. It was always the case that readers ordered all materials, as they were needed, at the desk in the main Reading Room, requesting 3 items at a time. Now you may request up to 5 items, but only at certain times during the day. You must place orders before 10am, 12 noon, 2pm or 4pm (or 6.30pm on the evenings the NLI opens late). So unless you want RC parish registers you are confined to these times and must predict which books, journals or microfilms you will need. If you get through 5 items in half an hour (as experienced researchers will often do) you must twiddle your thumbs till the next delivery. Readers are told that this is due to redeploying staff to cataloguing, etc., and that restricted ordering is common policy in ‘closed stack’ libraries. It is in the British Library, but you could fit the NLI and its collections into that institution ten times. The NLI has received complaints about this unworkable situation from many (including me) and suggestions on how they could save staff for cataloguing, etc., while providing the service expected of a national library. I suggested that they employ the same system for all their microfilm collection (newspapers, manuscripts such as Genealogical Office pedigrees, Tithe Books, etc. – including much non-genealogical material) as is in use in the National Archives and the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland. This would involve bar-coding all microfilm boxes, placing them in self-service cabinets and scanning them each time a reader takes them out and returns them, one at a time. That would ensure that microfilms don’t go astray, while allowing speedy access to the material. That could all be supervised by one staff member at a time. The rest of them could continue delivering books, journals, etc. (without time restrictions) and get on with cataloguing without shutting down the system. My suggestion was not even acknowledged in the bland reply I received from the NLI. That restricted access system is quite simply a scandal, and Cara’s correspondent didn’t experience it because he / she just went for RC parish register microfilms. If any of you have completed the NLI’s survey (as I have) you’ll see no mention of the restricted access system and nowhere in which to make general comments. It looks like the NLI’s survey is intended to get the results that the NLI want so that they can continue turning it into a book museum. I’ll be reiterating my comments and suggestions in a letter to Fiona Ross, Director of the National Library, which I’ll copy to Jimmy Deenihan, TD, Minister for Arts, Heritage & the Gaeltacht. I have to say that Cara’s correspondent’s comment “it feels to me like, Heritage Centers, Pro Reseachers, would be delighted with this daunting system now in place in the NLI Dublin” was very offensive and showed great ignorance of how things operate in Irish genealogy. I cannot speak for unaccredited individuals who call themselves professional genealogists, but I can talk about the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland [APGI]. I am an accredited member of APGI. It should not be confused with the American-based APG (a networking organisation for people working in genealogy-related careers which does not have an accreditation process for expertise). Over the years the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland [APGI] (and I personally) have worked for better access to records for all researchers in all Irish record repositories. It was primarily through our efforts that the NLI re-opened the ‘closed’ parish register microfilms from Cashel, Cloyne and Kerry dioceses. As a constituent member of CIGO [Council of Irish Genealogical Organisations], APGI has worked with bodies such as the Irish Genealogical Research Society, the Irish Family History Society and the North of Ireland Family History Society to improve conditions for all. They are societies that anyone can join, and they should be supported by individuals who inhabit newsgroups like this one because they work together systematically to improve your lot. Getting back to “Pro Researchers”, APGI members give a lot of their free time to serving on committees of genealogical organisations, etc.. I myself served on the NLI’s Committee on Genealogy and Heraldry for over three years. I found it a particularly frustrating and unrewarding experience as I achieved almost nothing in trying to get this advisory committee to recommend anything useful in relation to genealogy to the NLI’s Board. Anything that did get to the Board fell on deaf ears. I hope this background information will put into perspective the latest NLI survey along with the reality on the ground. Apologies for the length of this post. Paul Gorry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange

No need to apoligise for the length of the mail Paul as it held most in depth insight, but the Library was tested on its system as late as the 12th August to see how it was all running but the first test began over 6 weeks ago, and yes not all areas were tested, but the ones that were necessary to the basic research of any non professional person beginning their research were tested, I only commented on the fiasco of two or maybe three of the things that were uncovered in this exercise to test the system. Cara Allowing Your mail to flow through again as it is so informative. ----- Original Message ----- From: <gorry@indigo.ie> To: <cara_links@bigpond.com>; <irl-wicklow@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 5:20 AM Subject: National Library of Ireland and its survey Dear Cara, I read with alarm the description you were given of someone's recent visit to the National Library of Ireland. I don't know when this visit took place but I would be quite disappointed if it happened since 1st July 2011. First of all, it would help people's understanding of the situation if the institution was referred to by its real name - the National Library of Ireland [NLI], in Kildare Street, Dublin . It's confusing even to me (a regular NLI reader) when it's referred to as 'the Dublin Library'. That's because Dublin City Library & Archive is the name of a different institution in Pearse Street, Dublin. The first section of the NLI to which your correspondent refers is called the Genealogical Advisory Service (it's not the Genealogical Office, which has been downgraded almost to extinction by the NLI over the past decade). The second section of the Library to which he / she refers is the lower Microfilm Room, where the microfilms of Roman Catholic parish registers are accessed. Further up the stairs is the main Reading Room. Off that is the upper Microfilm Room, where microfilms of everything OTHER THAN RC parish registers are accessed. The Genealogical Advisory Service [GAS] was set up in 1989 at the Genealogical Office (further down Kildare Street). It was established as part of what became known as the Irish Genealogical Project - a government-backed initiative to promote tourism through genealogy. The GAS was run under the auspices of the Chief Herald by the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland [APGI] in conjunction with staff members. There was a charge for the service and the consultation lasted an hour. In 1998 the GAS was transferred up to the National Library's main building so that it would relieve congestion at the counter at the desk of the Reading Room. It was also made a free service. It continued to be run by APGI members in conjunction with NLI staff but eventually it was left to APGI to operate. Contrary to general perception, the APGI members who ran the GAS were not volunteers. They were professionals paid by the NLI to impart their expertise to visitors. They advised on the best method of finding information on the visitor's specific family and explained how to use the relevant records. This could involve records accessed in the NLI, in another record repository in Dublin or Belfast, a local library or indeed contacting an indexing (or 'heritage') centre. Because the visitor was no longer paying for the consultation, he / she could be given a 10-20 minute advisory session and sent on their way to research the first steps. They were then free to come back for more. The GAS worked so well that the National Archives in Bishop Street, Dublin, asked APGI to run a similar service at its premises. This began in 2003. The following year both services were visited on behalf of the LDS (the Mormon Church) by a genealogist surveying genealogical research services in various countries. In 2005 he communicated to APGI that the GAS at the National Library and the National Archives in Dublin provided the best services he had seen during his survey. In January 2007 the National Library discontinued its association with APGI. From that point forward the GAS room was run by NLI staff members, supplemented by students or interns engaged during summer months. This summer the NLI engaged APGI members to provide 'emergency cover' to help staff members during the months of July-September. There is one APGI member on duty each day (Mon-Fri), 10am-1pm & 2pm-5pm. The APGI member is identifiable by the blue APGI badge they wear. Sometime almost a year ago the NLI made the decision to change the system of accessing microfilms of RC parish registers in the lower Microfilm Room. Instead of placing an order for up to 3 films at a time in the main Reading Room, members of the public (without the need for a reader's ticket) could help themselves to films from cabinets in the lower Microfilm Room. Despite the NLI being approached by many regular readers about the inadvisability of such a free-for-all, that 'system' remains. A few months ago a major change was made in the NLI, one not touched on at all by the person who advised Cara. It was always the case that readers ordered all materials, as they were needed, at the desk in the main Reading Room, requesting 3 items at a time. Now you may request up to 5 items, but only at certain times during the day. You must place orders before 10am, 12 noon, 2pm or 4pm (or 6.30pm on the evenings the NLI opens late). So unless you want RC parish registers you are confined to these times and must predict which books, journals or microfilms you will need. If you get through 5 items in half an hour (as experienced researchers will often do) you must twiddle your thumbs till the next delivery. Readers are told that this is due to redeploying staff to cataloguing, etc., and that restricted ordering is common policy in 'closed stack' libraries. It is in the British Library, but you could fit the NLI and its collections into that institution ten times. The NLI has received complaints about this unworkable situation from many (including me) and suggestions on how they could save staff for cataloguing, etc., while providing the service expected of a national library. I suggested that they employ the same system for all their microfilm collection (newspapers, manuscripts such as Genealogical Office pedigrees, Tithe Books, etc. - including much non-genealogical material) as is in use in the National Archives and the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland. This would involve bar-coding all microfilm boxes, placing them in self-service cabinets and scanning them each time a reader takes them out and returns them, one at a time. That would ensure that microfilms don't go astray, while allowing speedy access to the material. That could all be supervised by one staff member at a time. The rest of them could continue delivering books, journals, etc. (without time restrictions) and get on with cataloguing without shutting down the system. My suggestion was not even acknowledged in the bland reply I received from the NLI. That restricted access system is quite simply a scandal, and Cara's correspondent didn't experience it because he / she just went for RC parish register microfilms. If any of you have completed the NLI's survey (as I have) you'll see no mention of the restricted access system and nowhere in which to make general comments. It looks like the NLI's survey is intended to get the results that the NLI want so that they can continue turning it into a book museum. I'll be reiterating my comments and suggestions in a letter to Fiona Ross, Director of the National Library, which I'll copy to Jimmy Deenihan, TD, Minister for Arts, Heritage & the Gaeltacht. I have to say that Cara's correspondent's comment "it feels to me like, Heritage Centers, Pro Reseachers, would be delighted with this daunting system now in place in the NLI Dublin" was very offensive and showed great ignorance of how things operate in Irish genealogy. I cannot speak for unaccredited individuals who call themselves professional genealogists, but I can talk about the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland [APGI]. I am an accredited member of APGI. It should not be confused with the American-based APG (a networking organisation for people working in genealogy-related careers which does not have an accreditation process for expertise). Over the years the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland [APGI] (and I personally) have worked for better access to records for all researchers in all Irish record repositories. It was primarily through our efforts that the NLI re-opened the 'closed' parish register microfilms from Cashel, Cloyne and Kerry dioceses. As a constituent member of CIGO [Council of Irish Genealogical Organisations], APGI has worked with bodies such as the Irish Genealogical Research Society, the Irish Family History Society and the North of Ireland Family History Society to improve conditions for all. They are societies that anyone can join, and they should be supported by individuals who inhabit newsgroups like this one because they work together systematically to improve your lot. Getting back to "Pro Researchers", APGI members give a lot of their free time to serving on committees of genealogical organisations, etc.. I myself served on the NLI's Committee on Genealogy and Heraldry for over three years. I found it a particularly frustrating and unrewarding experience as I achieved almost nothing in trying to get this advisory committee to recommend anything useful in relation to genealogy to the NLI's Board. Anything that did get to the Board fell on deaf ears. I hope this background information will put into perspective the latest NLI survey along with the reality on the ground. Apologies for the length of this post. Paul Gorry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange