James Rogan of Knockanree died March 20th 1881 aged 82 years His wife Mary died March 9th 1873 aged 80 yrs Daughter of above parents named Anne died May 16th 1846 aged 18 yrs Son William Died Jan 14 1856 aged 51 years. Son Francis died 15th march 1885 aged 53 years Son John Rogan died 11/12/1887 aged 49 years Bridget Rogan died May 13th 1876 aged 30 years Maria Rogan died 6/6/1876 aged 40 years Catherine Rogan daughter of Mary and John died 7/12/1885 aged 18 years Thomas Rogan died 15/4/1916 aged 89 years and his son James Rogan died 14th Nov 1918 aged 34 yrs All buried together in St Gabriels Graveyard also known as New Arklow graveyard Co Wicklow Ireland Main Street Arklow ( now a park of sorts soon to be demolished for real estate if not already done) Robert Rogan died 5/6/1808 aged 67 years. Cheers Cara

Dear Paul, Marie, Thomas, Nick and List, My small brain is working overtime. I feel I could learn a lot from this discussion if only I was able to read all the "inputs" in chronological order but my computer has a mind of its own! Just puts the emails in helter skelter. Have you ever thought of co operating on writing a book ( Yes, another One)? Regards to All. Inga J. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas ohare" <tohare@adelphia.net> To: <IRL-WICKLOW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Wicklow] Re: Read a Book - An alternative View > Paul & List, A provocative debate! What is "Ancestral File"? I am not > familiar with it. Thanks, Tom. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Gorry" <gorry@indigo.ie> > To: <IRL-WICKLOW-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:32 AM > Subject: [Wicklow] Re: Read a Book - An alternative View > > > > Marie wrote: > > <snip> In the pursuit of knowledge - any knowledge - is there any one > source > > that > > > holds the ultimate truth? I don't believe so. For as many "bad" > internet > > > sites that exist, there are equally as many "bad" books and, dare I > > suggest, > > > "bad" records. Surely I'm not alone in discovering inaccurate > information > > > contained in BMD certificates, Parish Registers and Census Returns. > <snip> > > > > Paul's response: > > A record is a primary source, whether or not it contains errors. A > > secondary source (such as information posted on the internet) will repeat > > the original errors but may add extra ones. I can't see how Marie equates > > actual records with copies or abstracts just because the actual records > may > > contain errors. That doesn't make them 'bad'. > > > > Marie wrote: > > <snip> Fortunately, I haven't yet > > > encountered any of the areas of misinformation that Paul refers to in my > > own > > > research. Perhaps it would be helpful if he could name some of these > > sites, > > > so that we can protect ourselves from them. > > > > Paul's response: > > Sorry Marie, I didn't make any reference to sites, but to misinformation. > > If you're looking for examples, I would cite Ancestral File as an > extremely > > misleading (and popular) research tool. I have come face to face with > > people who have gobbled up information from it without a thought as to how > > it got into Ancestral File. > > > > > > > > > > ==== IRL-WICKLOW Mailing List ==== > > Did you remind the list this month (September 2005) who you were looking > For? > > > > ============================== > > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > > New content added every business day. Learn more: > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > > > > > ==== IRL-WICKLOW Mailing List ==== > Never feel you shouldnt ask about your ancestors~ for if the first ask doesnt receive a reply then ask and ask again, for your family ancestors in Co Wicklow. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Sharon asks Paul " - would you kindly expand your comments about Ancestral File. I think it would be enlightening to read more about how records can and do get into the LDS File and why we should always 'consider the source.' I completely agree with you, but I think the List could benefit from your knowledge and familiarity with Ancestral File" My understanding of Ancestral File is than this is where church members list there people they won't baptised, It would appear that this used to be a bit of completion to see how many one could put into Ancestral File, some may were put in that were not researched as well as you would. While they are a pointer treat with caution All ways check out the source, it is listed. This only one file that one can access on LDS Familysearch site www.familysearch.org Visit my homepage http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/djgriff/ -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 26 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!

Hello Inga, You could try going back to the IRL-Wicklow-L Archives page, click on "browse the archives", then "September". Scroll down until you come to the relevant starting subject and then go through all the postings under that heading one by one. Mind you, I tried it out before responding and, on my computer, one or two of the postings are slightly askew!! But give it a go anyway - you might find it a bit clearer than on your email inbox. Hope this helps. Kind regards, Marie ----- Original Message ----- > My small brain is working overtime. <snip>

Wretched Internet!!! People keep keeping me awake! A very goodnight to you too Paul. Take care. Marie. ----- Original Message ----- > Good Night Marie,<snip>

Here's what could be an even easier way out - Taken from an unnamed gravestone in Suffolk, England, dated 1870, the following epitaph:- Stranger pass by and waste no time On bad biography and careless rhyme. For what I am, this humble dust encloses; And what I was is no affair of yourses. Goodnight all, Marie.

Good Night Marie, I've to go to Dublin on the 7am bus, so I won't be available for sparring till the weekend. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nik Leach" <nik.leach@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <IRL-WICKLOW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [Wicklow] "professional" genealogist > Hello Paul, > > I hope you don't mind me addressing you directly on a public forum but, as > our debate has so far been conducted on the board and others have also > participated, I thought it more appropriate than approaching you off-list. > > I'm sorry that you have taken exception to my remarks about fees paid to > professionals. I can assure you that they were in no way directed at you > personally, nor to any of your colleagues in the field. > > My point in referring to fees at all was to highlight the economic > difficulties that many, less fortunate, people can experience when they > choose to embark upon their family history investigations. It was also > raised within the context of my remarks about the digitising of various > records and making them more easily accessible to the general public. > > I know personally many unemployed, elderly, and sick or disabled people, > most of whom have to rely upon some very meagre state benefits. I also come > into contact with many youngsters, studying under the burden of student > loans, who similarly struggle in their daily lives. There are any number of > internet users who find themselves in like circumstances. You mention fees > paid to various other professionals - and herein lies the shame. In the UK > people's dental health, in particular, is being sadly neglected because more > and more dentists are no longer taking on NHS patients, who then simply > cannot afford the fees to go private - so their teeth rot. Lawyers' and > accountants' fees are largely irrelevant to the class of people I've alluded > to - they don't employ them. > > Obviously, I have no way of knowing how many people on the internet > suffering these disadvantages are actually engaged in family history > research, but I have had several email conversations with a fair number who > are. For people in their circumstances, even a reasonable fee will be > beyond their reach. > > There are, of course, those who would prefer to do their own research and > again, bearing in mind my intended context, the releasing of official > records into the public domain - via the net or in CD format - would be a > godsend. > > I trust this explanation on my part will alleviate any doubts you may have > as to my intentions. Perhaps I should have referred, in general terms, to > the costs that can be incurred (and accrued!) in setting out on this > pursuit, rather than using the word "professional?" > > Thank you very much for clarifying the situation regarding the Wicklow > Family History Centre and the three different services that are available > within the genealogy field. In view of what you say, it looks like I'll > have an awful lot of "foot slogging" to do once I finally get down to > thoroughly tracing my Irish ancestors! > > Thanks for the discussion, Paul. I hope others have found it interesting > too. > > Best wishes, > Marie. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > Marie wrote:<snip> > > > > ==== IRL-WICKLOW Mailing List ==== > SUBJECT LINE~ Make it catch the eye of the reader, > Body of the mail add as much information as you can > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > >

Hello everyone, I sincerely hope that you are not becoming bored with my exchanges with Paul Gorry - but here I go with another response! I must admit to being a little lost when it comes to Paul's first point. I wasn't aware that I was equating actual records with copies or abstracts "just because the actual records may contain errors." When referring to "bad" books and "bad" records, the word "bad" could easily be replaced with "inaccurate" or "ill informed", etc. The point I was trying to convey was that the internet is not alone in giving out inaccurate, questionable or misleading information. Virtually all media are at times guilty of the same. The thing to do, when it comes to the internet, is to submit corrections or amendments to the sites in question in order to help purge any "contamination" from this media. One of the joys of the internet is that this can often be achieved almost instantaneously - unlike a book which, having been published containing errors, is there for all posterity or until such time as a revised edition can be issued. Although I'm aware of it, I've never used Ancestral File, so I will heed Paul's warning and avoid it. If I may - just one last time - go back to my original posting. I had been reading, no doubt along with many others, the thread on Griffith's Valuation. At no time do I recall any of the contributors to that thread proffering the view that their research could be done by proxy by using this list or other sites on the internet. In fact, one or two were actually recommending books to read for further reference. There was certainly nothing to suggest that any were being lazy. Then along came Paul's contribution, containing references to what the whole world was allegedly thinking and a little dig at people who inhabit cyberspace, followed up with what was a pretty scathing attack on all the misinformation circulating on the internet. Now, although Paul included a rider to the effect that he wasn't having a go at anyone who's asked a question on this list, I have to say that I found his contribution to be somewhat incongruous and unwarranted within the context of the discussion that was taking place. Perhaps, an entirely separate thread on the use of the internet, and all its pitfalls, in researching family history would have been a more productive approach to have taken? I certainly would not have been moved to respond to his posting in the way I did if this had been the case. I really do not disagree with Paul on any crucial matter and it does appear to me to be more of a communications/context issue, as much as anything else. It just shows how careful we need to be when trying to get our points across. I'll stop now and go to sleep. Kind regards to one and all, Marie. ----- Original Message ----- > Marie wrote:<snip>

Hello Paul, I hope you don't mind me addressing you directly on a public forum but, as our debate has so far been conducted on the board and others have also participated, I thought it more appropriate than approaching you off-list. I'm sorry that you have taken exception to my remarks about fees paid to professionals. I can assure you that they were in no way directed at you personally, nor to any of your colleagues in the field. My point in referring to fees at all was to highlight the economic difficulties that many, less fortunate, people can experience when they choose to embark upon their family history investigations. It was also raised within the context of my remarks about the digitising of various records and making them more easily accessible to the general public. I know personally many unemployed, elderly, and sick or disabled people, most of whom have to rely upon some very meagre state benefits. I also come into contact with many youngsters, studying under the burden of student loans, who similarly struggle in their daily lives. There are any number of internet users who find themselves in like circumstances. You mention fees paid to various other professionals - and herein lies the shame. In the UK people's dental health, in particular, is being sadly neglected because more and more dentists are no longer taking on NHS patients, who then simply cannot afford the fees to go private - so their teeth rot. Lawyers' and accountants' fees are largely irrelevant to the class of people I've alluded to - they don't employ them. Obviously, I have no way of knowing how many people on the internet suffering these disadvantages are actually engaged in family history research, but I have had several email conversations with a fair number who are. For people in their circumstances, even a reasonable fee will be beyond their reach. There are, of course, those who would prefer to do their own research and again, bearing in mind my intended context, the releasing of official records into the public domain - via the net or in CD format - would be a godsend. I trust this explanation on my part will alleviate any doubts you may have as to my intentions. Perhaps I should have referred, in general terms, to the costs that can be incurred (and accrued!) in setting out on this pursuit, rather than using the word "professional?" Thank you very much for clarifying the situation regarding the Wicklow Family History Centre and the three different services that are available within the genealogy field. In view of what you say, it looks like I'll have an awful lot of "foot slogging" to do once I finally get down to thoroughly tracing my Irish ancestors! Thanks for the discussion, Paul. I hope others have found it interesting too. Best wishes, Marie. ----- Original Message ----- > Marie wrote:<snip>

Sharon asked: > Paul, if you are reading - would you kindly expand your comments about > Ancestral File. I think it would be enlightening to read more about how > records can and do get into the LDS File and why we should always 'consider > the source.' I completely agree with you, but I think the List could > benefit from your knowledge and familiarity with Ancestral File. Actually, I can't enlighten anyone on the use of Ancestral File as I rarely look at it! My problem with it is that it's composed of information submitted by individuals who may or may not have researched their family carefully. Other than telling you the name and contact details of the person who submitted the information (which in itself is useful in that you can try to make contact) it gives you no idea where the information comes from. I've seen pedigrees in it going back centuries that are all based on unreliable publications or pure fantasy. It is useful if you want a general outline of a fairly prominent family but it's not a record, just a research tool. It's one I'd remove from FamilySearch.org if I was in charge of that excellent site. That's all I can say about it. Paul Gorry

Paul & List, A provocative debate! What is "Ancestral File"? I am not familiar with it. Thanks, Tom. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Gorry" <gorry@indigo.ie> To: <IRL-WICKLOW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:32 AM Subject: [Wicklow] Re: Read a Book - An alternative View > Marie wrote: > <snip> In the pursuit of knowledge - any knowledge - is there any one source > that > > holds the ultimate truth? I don't believe so. For as many "bad" internet > > sites that exist, there are equally as many "bad" books and, dare I > suggest, > > "bad" records. Surely I'm not alone in discovering inaccurate information > > contained in BMD certificates, Parish Registers and Census Returns. <snip> > > Paul's response: > A record is a primary source, whether or not it contains errors. A > secondary source (such as information posted on the internet) will repeat > the original errors but may add extra ones. I can't see how Marie equates > actual records with copies or abstracts just because the actual records may > contain errors. That doesn't make them 'bad'. > > Marie wrote: > <snip> Fortunately, I haven't yet > > encountered any of the areas of misinformation that Paul refers to in my > own > > research. Perhaps it would be helpful if he could name some of these > sites, > > so that we can protect ourselves from them. > > Paul's response: > Sorry Marie, I didn't make any reference to sites, but to misinformation. > If you're looking for examples, I would cite Ancestral File as an extremely > misleading (and popular) research tool. I have come face to face with > people who have gobbled up information from it without a thought as to how > it got into Ancestral File. > > > > > ==== IRL-WICKLOW Mailing List ==== > Did you remind the list this month (September 2005) who you were looking For? > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx >

Marie wrote: <snip> I actually said that "very few of us" could afford the fees entailed in > engaging a professional to do the research for us. I felt it safer to > presume that most people engaged in researching their family history were > predominantly "ordinary" folk, who do not have money to burn, rather than > the reverse. If the example I gave of the charges quoted by the Wicklow > Family History Centre are not - in my opinion - somewhat exorbitant, then I > don't know what is. (Please, no one take offence at my use of quotes around > the word ordinary - it's actually meant as a compliment!). I really have to reply to this. As a professional genealogist I take exception to the suggestion that 'ordinary' people could not afford my fees. As Cara knows, I am not taking any new clients for the foreseeable future due to writing commitments, so I'm not touting for business here. With a few exceptions, I would say that the hundreds of clients I have worked for over the past 26 years are 'ordinary' people. You do not have to be a millionaire to engage the services of a professional genealogist. I presume 'ordinary' people are used to paying professional fees to doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants, car mechanics and plumbers. The difference between paying one of those professionals and engaging a genealogist is that they provide essential services, while genealogy is a hobby, a luxuary. There is nothing extraordinary about the fees charged by professional genealogists and, unlike doctors, lawyers or accountants, they will tell you up front what their hourly fee is. Marie quotes the charges made by Wicklow Family History Centre as an example of what professional genealogists charge. They provide an entirely different service. They are an indexing centre. They indexed church and other records and, for a fee determined by them, they provide information from their indexes. They are not what is termed 'professional genealogists'. This is the definition of a professional genealogist in the current Constitution of the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland (APGI): "A genealogist is one who conducts genealogical research in primary and secondary sources, who assesses the findings, determines further sources or constructs a pedigree, and who compiles a written account of the completed research. A professional genealogist earns his/her living by such work." If you engage a professional genealogist you should get the benefit of their expertise as well as their research time. If you just want a record examined or a document asearched for, you should engage a record agent instead. If you want an indexing centre to check their indexes, you engage the indexing centre's services. They're three entirely different services. And the thing about it is that you can choose to do the research yourself without engaging anyone's services. The indexing centres have exclusive access to their indexes, but the actual records are freely available elsewhere. Paul Gorry

Dear Cara I am finding your discussion interesting. In all research one would start with what ones knows.Start off in the country of Death, from death certificate with luck find year of birth place of birth, date of marriage, who married, where and age. Next is to move out can we find parish records of christening, or record of birth, I would use family Mormon Family Library nearest from you, and order film of records of that time.. If you can not locate where born, to narrow search use cd of Griffith's Valuation put in surname of ancestor and make note town land then do the same for the spouse you may find both surnames in the same townland or near by.Once you have sorted out likely family. it is time to test out your theory. Can you get birth records? What about Grave stone inscriptions from Grave yard You see you go from what is known to new information Regards Dave Visit my homepage http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/djgriff/ -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 26 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!

I know we can't all go into Politics, but here is Mark Twain's rather flippant advice: "Why waste your money looking up your family tree, just go into politics and your opponents will do it for you". Regards Inga J.

Marie wrote: <snip> In the pursuit of knowledge - any knowledge - is there any one source that > holds the ultimate truth? I don't believe so. For as many "bad" internet > sites that exist, there are equally as many "bad" books and, dare I suggest, > "bad" records. Surely I'm not alone in discovering inaccurate information > contained in BMD certificates, Parish Registers and Census Returns. <snip> Paul's response: A record is a primary source, whether or not it contains errors. A secondary source (such as information posted on the internet) will repeat the original errors but may add extra ones. I can't see how Marie equates actual records with copies or abstracts just because the actual records may contain errors. That doesn't make them 'bad'. Marie wrote: <snip> Fortunately, I haven't yet > encountered any of the areas of misinformation that Paul refers to in my own > research. Perhaps it would be helpful if he could name some of these sites, > so that we can protect ourselves from them. Paul's response: Sorry Marie, I didn't make any reference to sites, but to misinformation. If you're looking for examples, I would cite Ancestral File as an extremely misleading (and popular) research tool. I have come face to face with people who have gobbled up information from it without a thought as to how it got into Ancestral File.

At the risk here of getting a little flack from those who would like to see these books digitised and placed on the net, I also think that would be great, so before you read on, please be aware that my feelings are the same as everyone elses. But I now draw a point on digitised images of some parish records They would be, impossible to read, having had my hands on several of Wicklows RC and Church of Ireland records, I can now see why the LDS opted to do Church of Ireland for imaging and transcriptions more so than RC. Church of Ireland were easier to read. Roman Catholic Registers Some of these registers as you all know, who have taken the time to spin a reel will see that they are written in every available space, as I guess ink and paper was a valuable comodity. But the hand writing varies from page to page, so therefore transcritions must vary on these free sites also as well as paid sites, as well as by those who are professional researchers. Also for these parish registers to ever become digitised, you will have to cross the boundaries of red tape, enforced by the churches, particularly the RC...................Now before you all decide I am picking on the RC I am not, I am simply telling it as I see it, and I am not a paid reseacher although these days I have earnt my badge as a researcher. Now lets look at Church of Ireland They have been fairly well perused by most, easier to get at and easier in places to read, but once again the red tape to get these digitised is not going to be cut in a hurry by anyone, least of all those who have the registers. Now an overall look at things Registers are accessible on microfilms either from the LDS center nearest you, or unfortunately at the National Library Ireland. Also at the RCB but one must also be there to do one's own research, but I feel this is what this is all about, if you dont see with your own eyes the name in print, how do you know it is yours, I have a hard job knowing if they are mine even when I see the certificate. Now with the coming of the new age of Heritage societies, and research centers, Co Wicklow jumped aboard the bus, and they approached the parish priests ( RC) and collected and made copies of their parish registers on the promise that there would be one for them and one for the parish in question, it has now gone 2005 and that promise has not been fullfilled. ( I wont name the parish priest who shares this with me ) The priest believed that they would receive a digitised copy of all their books on a searchable CD, but thats not happened The parish priest does bless heselfs soul, but he rings on a regular base, still to this day trying to get his copy for his parsih. Now having said all this and digressed from digitizing the registers, I do find that even if you travel the net, looking for resources for Co Wicklow it still takes you back to that WHC and not wishing to open that can of worms again, I have realised that when the looking for ancestors became fashionable, WHC were smarter than most, they collected everything they could and have it housed in their office, and may I say this, they dont move their nether region to search anything than whats in their office, or take a walk to the other county office to get a photo copy of your ancestors for 2 euros and sell it on to you for whatever they like. The problem is there is no fair fee from any of these heritage centers, which by the way and this one in particular, usually only has one full time staffer and a part time staffer so even her work is cut out to meet the demands of the public. Yes first and fore most you need the date and the place to research, but if you dont know this how do you know who are your ancestors even if they ever digitize the parish registers So in fact it is back to reading a book and deciding what townland they were in, what barony they came from , were they in a poor law union area, did they live on a border, were they involved in two parishes covered by one poor law union, yes it is hard to understand how to solve these problems, and very off setting for anyone branching into it all, be it by a book or by the internet. Sorry for rambling Cara

The recent List discussions about the importance of reading books, recognizing on-line records as helpful second-hand (or further) information, hiring professionals, knowing the difference between prof.genealogists and county heritage centre clerks, the value of personal visits to see actual vital records, etc. are exactly the sort of discussion that got me started out on the right (I hope) foot a few years ago when I began to research my husband's Irish family. I read every book my local LDS family history library holds on searching for your Irish roots. (I visited 3 local libraries and one had their own Irish 'expert,' someone who had done travel to collect information from Irish record offices and had helped those searching for Irish roots.) Of course some of the information from books was introductory - suggesting one first talk to all living family, etc. But what if a person might not have actually done so before looking on-line. That would be a classic waste of time and the information on the Web could then lead one down that garden path...In our case, it took two people three years to collect the stacks of information I "started" with - all gathered from living family. I have been listening to the RTE Radio 1 broadcasts called "The Family Tree." I was delighted to recognize Paul Gorry on that program as a contributor to the Wicklow List. I heartily recommend these programs to all: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thefamilytree/ You can listen to them on your PC. The LDS library supplied a blank paper pedigree chart called "Where Do I Start?' - step 1: Identify what you know about your family. Step 2: Decide what you want to learn about your family. (For determining what you want to learn next, I would refer you to Dave Griffith's concise posting, attached below.) Then they supplied a way to search, by using their own "Ancestral File" - the LDS computerized collection of genealogies that links families into pedigrees. Their directions to using Ancestral File are three pages. Paul, if you are reading - would you kindly expand your comments about Ancestral File. I think it would be enlightening to read more about how records can and do get into the LDS File and why we should always 'consider the source.' I completely agree with you, but I think the List could benefit from your knowledge and familiarity with Ancestral File. I have searched Ancestral File with benefit of that volunteer 'expert' (whom I paid to help me at the LDS library) and photocopied pertinent pages of parish records, censuses, etc. I'd like to hear how (if) they photocopied the actual parish registers, for example. Can those photocopied records be considered as valid as the actual parish register, if, of course, legible. From books, I learned which vital records exist, in both the States and in Ireland (for my situation). For example, don't waste time looking for a government record of a BMD before governments began to record same, and know where to look instead. I learned from books how to search for a birthplace in Ireland, how to search for church records in Ireland, how to search civil registers in Ireland, which Irish censuses exist. I read books from individual Irish counties, from societies and dioceses etc. Probably most important -I learned some Irish history (and have learned much more from the Rootsweb Lists) - for example, the history of religion in Ireland and how records were affected by that history. History of wars and rebellions. I learned about Griffiths Valuation from books, about Famine history and dates, immigration etc. In other words, before I ever looked on-line, I knew what I was looking for, because I had already gathered all that I could from family, from U.S. vital records (by U.S. mail) and then from books. During the years of my research, much of the reading I did has made it onto the Web. But, as we all know, someone with their own agenda decides what information to post online - the info is abridged, as it were. Someone else has decided for you what you won't ever know unless you have read the book. What was omitted is often what you seek. No, you might not find a family BMD in a book - but you might find a fact that saves you years of searching on-line for something that doesn't exist because of what you don't know and can't know from working only on-line. So I can tell you that books are invaluable and I ask Paul, and the List, for guidance in using Ancestral File in the future, and also for help in determining the significance of individuals of same surname being listed consecutively in Griffiths - how significant is that when those individuals have all the 'correct' family given names, for example. Thanks to all for postings. This is the most active List I monitor. Sharon Sharon At 03:51 PM 9/5/2005 +1200, you wrote: >I am finding your discussion interesting. In all research one would start >with what one knows.Start off in the country of Death, from death >certificate with luck find year of birth place of birth, date of marriage, >who married, where and age. >Next is to move out can we find parish records >of christening, or record of birth, I would use family Mormon Family Library >nearest from you, and order film of records of that time.. >If you can not locate where born, to narrow search use cd of Griffith's >Valuation put in surname of ancestor and make note town land then do the >same for the spouse you may find both surnames in the same townland or near >by.Once you have sorted out likely family. it is time to test out your >theory. >Can you get birth records? >What about Grave stone inscriptions from Grave yard >You see you go from what is known to new information >Regards >Dave

Hello Cara, Many thanks for all this detailed information - it's warmly appreciated. In another thread, I did advocate the digitising of parish registers and was speaking generally, not simply about Ireland. Obviously, where the original material is in a decayed or illegible state, it would be quite pointless to do this, so I fully understand your concerns. Have you any idea on the state of Irish census returns and if there are any plans to digitise these documents? On the question of the WHC, I have no criticism at all to make of the staff employed there and they are probably on quite low wages themselves. My concern, as ever, is with the "powers that be" and my niece's experience (mentioned elsewhere) when she was seeking information on her great grandparents. She was quite distressed that she could not afford even the assessment fee and so my advocacy for digitising records is prompted by my concern for people in similar positions, who shouldn't feel deprived of information due to lack of funds or availability to travel to Ireland. I agree completely with your comments on "going back to reading a book." I'm an avid reader myself and a world without books would be a sorry place indeed. In supporting the internet, I certainly would not recommend it as a sole source for information. Rather, it is best used as a complementary tool to the rest of one's research. Because the internet, these days, reaches out to so many differing people around the world I don't believe its contribution to human knowledge should in any way be underestimated, though. There you go, Cara. No complaints from me and, although I have very rarely posted on these boards, I take a keen interest in all the information and opinion that is being shared. Your contributions, in particular, have never been anything other than fascinating and informative. I've printed out quite a number of posts from this board, which I'm keeping filed safely away - all ready for future reference once I really get down to my Irish research. I must stop rambling, too. All the very best to you Cara, and many thanks for running such an excellent board. Best regards, Marie ----- Original Message ----- > At the risk here of getting a little flack from those who would like to > see these books digitised and placed on the net, I also think that would > be great, so before you read on, please be aware that my feelings are the > same as everyone elses.<snip>

Hello Fellow Listers, In responding to Paul's further contribution to this discussion, let me first of all clarify that I do not indulge in making "disparaging" remarks about other contributors on this, or any other, public forum. My use of quotation marks in referring generally to "professional" genealogists was purely to distinguish between those who make a living through ancestral research and those of us who are endeavouring to discover our family heritage for ourselves. No offence was intended and I'm surprised that it was interpreted as such. I actually said that "very few of us" could afford the fees entailed in engaging a professional to do the research for us. I felt it safer to presume that most people engaged in researching their family history were predominantly "ordinary" folk, who do not have money to burn, rather than the reverse. If the example I gave of the charges quoted by the Wicklow Family History Centre are not - in my opinion - somewhat exorbitant, then I don't know what is. (Please, no one take offence at my use of quotes around the word ordinary - it's actually meant as a compliment!). That all said, there is really much that Paul and I agree upon. It is purely on the question of internet use that we differ. Whilst I respect Paul's views I do think it important that an opposing view is equally stated, otherwise a complete newcomer to genealogy might well be deterred from using the internet to its full potential. In the pursuit of knowledge - any knowledge - is there any one source that holds the ultimate truth? I don't believe so. For as many "bad" internet sites that exist, there are equally as many "bad" books and, dare I suggest, "bad" records. Surely I'm not alone in discovering inaccurate information contained in BMD certificates, Parish Registers and Census Returns. For all these records rely on human beings to impart the information contained within them and, as we all know, humans are not immune from making mistakes - or even fibbing! Now - if we don't occasionally read a "bad" book, how do we judge what is a good one? Similarly with the internet. Fortunately, I haven't yet encountered any of the areas of misinformation that Paul refers to in my own research. Perhaps it would be helpful if he could name some of these sites, so that we can protect ourselves from them. With regard to the availability of Irish records or resources on the internet, I find them to be woefully inadequate. The LDS site and its IGI only sparsely cover Ireland and there is next to nothing on Wicklow. In any event, the IGI is notoriously incomplete and riddled with errors, a fact most newcomers quickly pick up on, and seek further corroboration from parish registers and other documents. Despite all this, the IGI is an excellent reference point from which to launch further investigations and, as such, is highly valued as an aid to research. No, my criticism with Irish Records is that there is no equivalent to the UK's GRO Indices or census returns on the internet. Many of us may have only a vague idea of the BMD dates for our ancestors and the introduction of these resources onto the internet would prove to be invaluable when trying to track them down. In conclusion, I have to say that I believe people should feel free to pursue whatever direction they choose in pursuit of knowledge - genealogical or otherwise. If this means that, along the way, we receive some duff information or make mistakes, then so be it. For isn't this half the fascination and fun of our wonderful pursuit, and don't we also learn invaluable lessons from these mistakes? Internet users inhabiting "cyberspace" are not, generally, stupid and even brand new entrants into this fascinating world quite quickly learn to distinguish between the "good" and "bad". By all means offer help and guidance where it is required, but don't insult the intelligence of enquirers when doing so. "Marie" is under no illusions when it comes to the spread of misinformation - we get plenty of it from our politicians, lawyers, estate agents, bankers, businessmen and any others who attempt to control us. I trust that I am quite well able, therefore, to cast a cynical eye upon any such misinformation that comes my way on the internet. I firmly believe that most other users are equally adept. Since starting out on my own ancestral journey, just a few years ago, the internet has brought me into contact with some wonderful people all over the world, who have provided me with enormous amounts of information and advice. This, I treasure and it is in defence of such "second hand" helpers that I was initially prompted to join in the debate. The views I've expressed are purely my own and I wouldn't dream of imposing them upon anyone else - take them or leave them. All I would say is that, surely, any pursuit should, above all, be about joy and to deprive or restrict us in the use of the internet would kill much of that emotion. With warm regards to everyone, Marie. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Gorry" <gorry@indigo.ie> To: <IRL-WICKLOW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 6:29 PM Subject: [Wicklow] Re: Read a Book - An alternative View > Marie wrote:<snip>

Marie wrote: <snip> Whilst I cannot disagree that there is no substitute for visiting local record offices and archives in pursuit of tracing our ancestors, it is a great leap of faith to believe that we will find such information in any book. Yes, there are a number of excellent guides available, telling us how to set about our research, but none that tell us when our ancestors were born, married and died; where they lived and went to school, or what occupations they had. <snip> Paul's response: I didn't make myself clear if that's what you read from my posting. I meant that reading a book will give you the knowledge to use the records which will provide the answers about your ancestors' dates of birth, marriage and death, etc.. Marie wrote: <snip> Many of us, for various reasons, are unable to travel to Ireland and do the rounds of National and Local archives in pursuit of such information and very few of us could afford the prices charged by "professional" genealogists to do the work for us.<snip> Paul's response: Many finding aids and some actual records from Ireland are available through outlets worldwide, principally through the LDS (Mormon) Church, but also through organisations such as the Society of Australian Genealogists. I presume the use of quotation marks about the word 'professional' is meant to make it disparaging towards me and my colleagues in the profession. Perhaps you should investigate 'prices charged' before you assume that most people on the list cannot afford them. Marie wrote: <snip> Projects like Free BMD, Free Cen, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website and numerous other sites, some of which charge a nominal fee, are invaluable to us. <snip> Paul's response: I couldn't agree more. Marie wrote: <snip> I'd dearly love to see all the parish records fully digitised and made available to the general public.<snip> Paul's response: So would I. For research purposes, digitised images of parish registers are the same as the originals, so you wouldn't be dealing with a mere index or research tool but an actual record. Marie wrote: <snip> A great deal of criticism is hurled at the internet and its users but, in the area of genealogy, it has opened the doors to a wealth of knowledge that many of us would otherwise have missed, not least of all in appreciating our ancestors, their lives, struggles, hardships and sacrifices in order that we may enjoy the lives we do today.<snip> Paul's response: My point is that while the internet opens the doors to a wealth of knowledge it also lets in a lot of misinformation that contaminated that knowledge. People who are just starting to research their family history should not expose themselves to that contamination till they know what they're dealing with. Genealogy is a serious study which is also a hobby, and people for whom it's a hobby contribute to it in compiling pedigrees that others will use in the future. Genealogy is in a more or less unique position in this regard. That's why we need to be very careful about how people new to the subject use information. As someone who loves genealogy I don't want to see it contaminated with misinformation for future generations. A quarter of a century ago genealogy had little respect from academic historians. I can see it going back to that position if genealogists don't do something to stop the circulation of misinformation on the internet. Whether people like Marie recognise it, the internet is spreading misinformation almost as fast as it spreads knowledge. Marie wrote: <snip> In response to Paul's contribution then, all I can say is that there is room for all types of research, including the internet, and no one should feel less "worthy" for having used this wonderful tool to gather whatever information they can upon their ancestors.<snip> Paul's response: I hope others didn't think I was suggesting they were wrong to use the internet for research. What I hope is that people will use actual records and seek advise elsewhere as well as using the internet, so that they can distinguish between factual records and second-hand information.