All this may be true. In my experience, I've learned more facts about how to research, via the net, than answers to my research. Participants postings have provided abundant reference info. Keep up the good work, gang. Paul -----Original Message----- From: Paul Gorry [mailto:gorry@indigo.ie] Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 11:04 To: IRL-WICKLOW-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Wicklow] Read A Book! Seeing the various postings about Griffith's Valuation makes me wonder yet again if anyone who lives in cyberspace over reads a book. I know that the entire world thinks that the internet is where you find answers to everything these days. But you won't find answers to everything about Irish genealogy, that's for sure. Dare I accuse people in general who inhabit cyberspace of being LAZY!?! Well, I've said it. I'm not having a go at anyone who's asked a question on this list (or anyone who's been helpful enough to answer them). I'm just concerned that people seem to think that all their research can be done by proxy by using this list or other sites on the internet. It can't! If you want to trace your ancestry back to Adam and Eve by sitting at a computer, you'll probably find a ready-made family tree somewhere that you can graft your people on to. It may look nice, but it won't be correct. There is some wonderful (and FREE) information on the internet, but there's also a lot of rubbish. Knowing how to distinguish between the two takes experience. In the Genealogy Advisory Service (GAS) at the National Library and National Archives in Dublin we get a lot of people these days coming in with information they got about their "ancestors" from someone they met in cyperspace or that their long-dead grandaunt accumulated God-knows-where. Instead of getting out of their house and going to the record office that holds their grandparents' marriage record or the relevant census return or whatever, they asked someone out there in the dark if they know anything about Joe Bloggs who married Jane Doe. Based on the replies they start gathering information on a Joe and Jane couple who may or may not be their ancestors and turn up in Dublin with a lot of relevant and irrelevant stuff nicely blended together. You can take the wrong turn at any point along the path of your search unless you do your research carefully. At the GAS I often find myself stripping away the layers of internet-provided stuff people have accumulated till there is nothing left. The disappointed people had thought they knew their ancestor was Patrick Murphy born in Ballygobackwards in 1840 because someone told them they found him on the IGI but in reality they themselves had not even obtained their grandparents' marriage record and didn't know their great-grandparents' names for sure. Genealogy is a hobby but it's one that leaves being documentation for future generations. If your research is faulty your grandnephew won't think to question it when he picks up the documents long after you're gone. As genealogy is a hobby people don't take it as seriously as other things they might do. I wonder how many of you take medical or legal advice from strangers over the internet. If you don't take medical or legal advice over the internet, why not???? I generally warn beginners off using the internet until they have some experience of REAL research. So, my advice for all beginners is READ A BOOK. There are several good books on genealogical research out there. Get one about research in your home country first, as that's where you need to start. Then, before trying to go beyond the Irish born ancestor, get one on Irish research. By far the most widely read book on the subject is John Grenham's "Tracing Your Irish Ancestors" (second edition) which is available just about anywhere for purchase or for reference. A third edition is due out soonish, but don't wait for that. Get out and get yourself a guide book. Then when you've read it you'll be in a better position to ask questions and judge the quality of the answers. Paul Gorry ==== IRL-WICKLOW Mailing List ==== If you have a problem, question, need direction or to report a virus, please contact IRL-WICKLOW-admin@rootsweb.com. off-list at Admin Thanks ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Cara faithfully carries that book where ever she is going it has been lodged in the bottom of her bag forever, and wont be leaving there either never know when the call will come that says get your bags packed I will meet you in Ireland And I have an extended library of Irish books both old and new and some were gifts. But it is true to use this list, you do have to use the front of the list and share, not go behind it , and of course go visit the library, even if you have a profesional do your research there are cases like this where a person died of *Senile Bronchitis* now that is a new desease to me and we wouldnt want us getting that by not using our brains ..............besides it stops the widening of the nether regions if you take a stroll down town to the library But dont be put off and not ask questions, thats what the list is for. Cheers Cara

Hello Paul, Top of the morning to you on this day as it's Fathers Day in Australia. The first book on genealogy that I read was an Indian book called the Karma Sutra. I was only eighteen & couldn't make head nor tail of it. It was a real pain in the neck! Seriously, I use the Collins Pocket Reference book titled "Tracing Irish Ancestors a practical guide to Irish genealogy" as it's easy to carry around the traps. My edition is dated 1997. I purchased it in Ireland during 1998. Its ISBN is 0-00-472095-4 & contains 288 pages. The distinguished authors are Màire Mac Conghall and Paul Gorry. I believe that this Paul is directly related to your parents. Smiling, Pierré Mayberry Tuggeranong ACT Australia

Excellent letter. -- both in content and form. I send you best and all good wishes too !! Cece ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Subject: [Wicklow] Read a Book - An alternative View > Hello people,

Hello All, Following on from Paul's posting, there is an excellent book on the subject by James R Reilly. It's an American publication with the title, "Richard Griffith and His Valuation of Ireland." My copy is a reprint (2002) of the original in 2000. It was printed for the Clearfield Company Inc by Genealogical Publishing Co Inc out of Baltimore, Maryland. The book's size is A4 & contains about 108 pages with plenty of figures/diagrams for easy understanding. The ISBN is 0 8063 4954 9. Regards, Peter Mayberry Tuggeranong in Canberra ACT The bush capital of Australia http://www.pcug.org.au/~ppmay/

Hello people, I read with interest - and growing concern - Paul Gorry's contribution to the postings regarding Griffith's Valuation. Whilst I cannot disagree that there is no substitute for visiting local record offices and archives in pursuit of tracing our ancestors, it is a great leap of faith to believe that we will find such information in any book. Yes, there are a number of excellent guides available, telling us how to set about our research, but none that tell us when our ancestors were born, married and died; where they lived and went to school, or what occupations they had. For this information we have to rely on "family gossip" and documents where possible. Many of us, for various reasons, are unable to travel to Ireland and do the rounds of National and Local archives in pursuit of such information and very few of us could afford the prices charged by "professional" genealogists to do the work for us. This is where the internet comes in to play such a vital role in our research. Projects like Free BMD, Free Cen, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website and numerous other sites, some of which charge a nominal fee, are invaluable to us. The releasing of all the available censuses for England and Wales, either on pay-per view sites or in CD format is a move forward for the better. Then there are those kind souls who have transcribed parish registers and placed the results on websites - they all deserve a medal. As far as I'm concerned, the more information on the internet the better and I'd dearly love to see all the parish records fully digitised and made available to the general public. This information belongs to the people - not Governments. Such projects also preserve the knowledge that is available and does not become prey to the war, flood or fire damage that has destroyed so many vital documents over the years. I also find it difficult to understand why so few Irish records are available on the internet and cannot help but feel the authorities responsible are guilty of a general rip-off. A couple of years ago my niece visited the Wicklow Family History Centre and was informed that she could not look up records for herself but would have to pay 95 euros as an assessment fee to see if there were any records. If she then wanted a more detailed report, a fee of 444 euros would be charged. Being a student, with no income to speak of, she understandably declined both offers!! A great deal of criticism is hurled at the internet and its users but, in the area of genealogy, it has opened the doors to a wealth of knowledge that many of us would otherwise have missed, not least of all in appreciating our ancestors, their lives, struggles, hardships and sacrifices in order that we may enjoy the lives we do today. Internet users are neither lazy nor unread. For the most part they recognise a modern technology for what it is and put it to the use for which is was originally designed - the acquisition of knowledge and the development of world-wide friendship and understanding for people of all classes, backgrounds, races and creeds. In response to Paul's contribution then, all I can say is that there is room for all types of research, including the internet, and no one should feel less "worthy" for having used this wonderful tool to gather whatever information they can upon their ancestors. With every good wish to one and all, Marie.

Seeing the various postings about Griffith's Valuation makes me wonder yet again if anyone who lives in cyberspace over reads a book. I know that the entire world thinks that the internet is where you find answers to everything these days. But you won't find answers to everything about Irish genealogy, that's for sure. Dare I accuse people in general who inhabit cyberspace of being LAZY!?! Well, I've said it. I'm not having a go at anyone who's asked a question on this list (or anyone who's been helpful enough to answer them). I'm just concerned that people seem to think that all their research can be done by proxy by using this list or other sites on the internet. It can't! If you want to trace your ancestry back to Adam and Eve by sitting at a computer, you'll probably find a ready-made family tree somewhere that you can graft your people on to. It may look nice, but it won't be correct. There is some wonderful (and FREE) information on the internet, but there's also a lot of rubbish. Knowing how to distinguish between the two takes experience. In the Genealogy Advisory Service (GAS) at the National Library and National Archives in Dublin we get a lot of people these days coming in with information they got about their "ancestors" from someone they met in cyperspace or that their long-dead grandaunt accumulated God-knows-where. Instead of getting out of their house and going to the record office that holds their grandparents' marriage record or the relevant census return or whatever, they asked someone out there in the dark if they know anything about Joe Bloggs who married Jane Doe. Based on the replies they start gathering information on a Joe and Jane couple who may or may not be their ancestors and turn up in Dublin with a lot of relevant and irrelevant stuff nicely blended together. You can take the wrong turn at any point along the path of your search unless you do your research carefully. At the GAS I often find myself stripping away the layers of internet-provided stuff people have accumulated till there is nothing left. The disappointed people had thought they knew their ancestor was Patrick Murphy born in Ballygobackwards in 1840 because someone told them they found him on the IGI but in reality they themselves had not even obtained their grandparents' marriage record and didn't know their great-grandparents' names for sure. Genealogy is a hobby but it's one that leaves being documentation for future generations. If your research is faulty your grandnephew won't think to question it when he picks up the documents long after you're gone. As genealogy is a hobby people don't take it as seriously as other things they might do. I wonder how many of you take medical or legal advice from strangers over the internet. If you don't take medical or legal advice over the internet, why not???? I generally warn beginners off using the internet until they have some experience of REAL research. So, my advice for all beginners is READ A BOOK. There are several good books on genealogical research out there. Get one about research in your home country first, as that's where you need to start. Then, before trying to go beyond the Irish born ancestor, get one on Irish research. By far the most widely read book on the subject is John Grenham's "Tracing Your Irish Ancestors" (second edition) which is available just about anywhere for purchase or for reference. A third edition is due out soonish, but don't wait for that. Get out and get yourself a guide book. Then when you've read it you'll be in a better position to ask questions and judge the quality of the answers. Paul Gorry

Susan Marshall wrote: > Where con you get a full copy of the entries in the Griffiths Valuation. I > have found plenty of web sites where the names and locations are listed - > but it would be great to find out more. Irish Origins http://www.origins.net/OWelcome-8.aspx has a database of Griffith's Valuation, searchable by personal name, with images of the related pages in the original publication. It is a pay site. Griffith's Valuation lists the occupiers of all properties in Ireland, stating also their immediate landlord. It lists only the occupier, not his/her children or anyone else. Any farmer or shopkeeper in Ireland AT THE TIME (it was published in stages between 1848 and 1864) will appear. It should include any dwelling or piece of land, but in practice an unquantifiable number of landless labourers are unrecorded. I would say, however, that 90% of heads of families appear. The labourers who don't appear may have been occupying herds' houses which appear under the employing farmer's name. People working for the gentry or aristocracy as game keepers, gate keepers, etc., generally don't appear, as the gate lodges and such buildings are usually listed for the employer also. Teachers and policemen are highly unlikely to appear too, as they were by and large living on the premises. Paul Gorry

That is why I am surprised by the adoration of the Griffith's. My family surnames are very common ones in Ireland, and with no other info., how is one to know they have the right person? I guess I will keep saving my quarters and plan a trip to the homeland of my brave and wonderful ancestors, and dig around for a while !! I think a lovely thatched roof abode would be nice for a month----which month should I choose for optimum weather? Cousin Cece ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Gorry" <gorry@indigo.ie> To: <IRL-WICKLOW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 11:04 AM Subject: [Wicklow] Read A Book! > Seeing the various postings about Griffith's Valuation makes me wonder yet > again if anyone who lives in cyberspace over reads a book. I know that > the > entire world thinks that the internet is where you find answers to > everything these days. But you won't find answers to everything about > Irish > genealogy, that's for sure. Dare I accuse people in general who inhabit > cyberspace of being LAZY!?! Well, I've said it. I'm not having a go at > anyone who's asked a question on this list (or anyone who's been helpful > enough to answer them). I'm just concerned that people seem to think that > all their research can be done by proxy by using this list or other sites > on > the internet. It can't! > > If you want to trace your ancestry back to Adam and Eve by sitting at a > computer, you'll probably find a ready-made family tree somewhere that you > can graft your people on to. It may look nice, but it won't be correct. > There is some wonderful (and FREE) information on the internet, but > there's > also a lot of rubbish. Knowing how to distinguish between the two takes > experience. In the Genealogy Advisory Service (GAS) at the National > Library > and National Archives in Dublin we get a lot of people these days coming > in > with information they got about their "ancestors" from someone they met in > cyperspace or that their long-dead grandaunt accumulated God-knows-where. > Instead of getting out of their house and going to the record office that > holds their grandparents' marriage record or the relevant census return or > whatever, they asked someone out there in the dark if they know anything > about Joe Bloggs who married Jane Doe. Based on the replies they start > gathering information on a Joe and Jane couple who may or may not be their > ancestors and turn up in Dublin with a lot of relevant and irrelevant > stuff > nicely blended together. > > You can take the wrong turn at any point along the path of your search > unless you do your research carefully. At the GAS I often find myself > stripping away the layers of internet-provided stuff people have > accumulated > till there is nothing left. The disappointed people had thought they knew > their ancestor was Patrick Murphy born in Ballygobackwards in 1840 because > someone told them they found him on the IGI but in reality they themselves > had not even obtained their grandparents' marriage record and didn't know > their great-grandparents' names for sure. Genealogy is a hobby but it's > one > that leaves being documentation for future generations. If your research > is > faulty your grandnephew won't think to question it when he picks up the > documents long after you're gone. As genealogy is a hobby people don't > take > it as seriously as other things they might do. I wonder how many of you > take medical or legal advice from strangers over the internet. If you > don't > take medical or legal advice over the internet, why not???? > > I generally warn beginners off using the internet until they have some > experience of REAL research. So, my advice for all beginners is READ A > BOOK. There are several good books on genealogical research out there. > Get > one about research in your home country first, as that's where you need to > start. Then, before trying to go beyond the Irish born ancestor, get one > on > Irish research. By far the most widely read book on the subject is John > Grenham's "Tracing Your Irish Ancestors" (second edition) which is > available > just about anywhere for purchase or for reference. A third edition is due > out soonish, but don't wait for that. Get out and get yourself a guide > book. Then when you've read it you'll be in a better position to ask > questions and judge the quality of the answers. > > Paul Gorry > > > > > > ==== IRL-WICKLOW Mailing List ==== > If you have a problem, question, need direction or to report a virus, > please contact IRL-WICKLOW-admin@rootsweb.com. off-list at Admin Thanks > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > >

Hello Paul, I, for one, feel properly chastened! I agree that the Internet has become a much too easy and popular tool and that we expect instant answers. Although I read a great deal, I must admit that I haven't any books yet, on Irish research! Thanks for the reminder - we all need a good, swift kick in the pants, now and again. Sharon

Do you have any Brownrigg or Hopkins listed in Shillelagh? Thank you Jeff Jernegan ----- Original Message ----- From: "JR Hopkins" <j.hopkins@shaw.ca> To: <IRL-WICKLOW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 2:51 AM Subject: Re: [Wicklow] GRIFFITHS VALUATION > Dave, > You are right about the lessee's being listed as well, I have a printed > copy (1853) of the individual townlands for the Barony of Shillelagh and > Upper Ballincor and it gives the lessee and who the lease is from. > > > ==== IRL-WICKLOW Mailing List ==== > Stick to the lists Golden Rule and you will never go wrong, Co Wicklow > genealogy~history~news~ and be nice to one another. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Susan I would suggest you call at nearest Mormon Family Library to find your nearest LDS Familysearch site www.familysearch.org Visit my homepage http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/djgriff/

Cara what you said " only IF they were land owners. It was indeed only a Valuation of landed people... so if you ancestors were not land people then I have to assume they did not appear in this source either" I do not think this is correct My understanding was that if you were leasing land you would appear on Griffith's Valuation.not necessary owning the land. . Regards Dave Visit my homepage http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/djgriff/

Sorry, I omitted to say that Anne was the daughter of a James Eager. My Jackson line connection started when Peter married Charlotte Jane Moody 7th June 1866 at Dunlavin, Charlotte was the daughter of William Moody and Elizabeth Williams. It is through the Williams line that I am connected, so you will understand that the Eagers would only be connected by this marriage of Annie. However I would like details of her parents and their marriage, please. Peter Jackson was the son of a William Jackson, farmer. If you would like anything further from my line do let me know but I am sorry that I don't have any further information on the Eagers. All I had was the marriage date and venue. Do you know where William Jackson and Annie lived after their marriage? I will have a look at Dunlavin etc. and if I find anything I will let you know. Should be back to handson research shortly. I had a break with summer etc. Joyce -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/88 - Release Date: 01/09/05

Yes Annie Sarah Eager is the the oldest sister of the twins Catherine and Susannah. Her husband William is the son of Peter Jackson. I would be very grateful of any further information on this couple if you have any. All I have is a marriage date of 30th June 1904. I have lots of info on Annie Sarah Eager's ancestors. Thanks Susan

I have a WILLIAM JACKSON who married ANNE SARAH EAGER of Tourboy in 1904 at Kiltegan. Any connection? I don't as yet have any children listed for this couple. Joyce -------Original Message------- From: IRL-WICKLOW-L@rootsweb.com Date: 09/01/05 09:31:51 To: IRL-WICKLOW-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [Wicklow] Wilsons/Moyne I have two twin sisters in my tree which will probably somehow link into yours. They are the daughters of James Eager b. abt 1839 Ballinaguile? d. Tourboy - Farmer, bur. 30th Mar 1912, St. Peters, Kiltegan - C. of I. m2. 4th May 1873 St Peters, Mary Anne Jackson, b. abt 1843 Crossmacool d. 1932, Bartle, Wicklow, bur. 18th Jan 1932, St Peters, Father - John Jackson. 7. Catherine Eager (Twin) c. 19th July 1887 St Peters m. 30th June 1904 St Peters William Willoughby Wilson Drein, Wicklow. Son of William Wilson 8. Susannah Eager (Twin) c. 19th July 1887 St Peters m. 9th Aug 1911 St Peters Thomas Henry Bourne Clonmore, Wicklow Son of John Bourne Hope that this is of some help Susan ==== IRL-WICKLOW Mailing List ==== Did you remind the list this month (September 2005) who you were looking For? ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/86 - Release Date: 31/08/05 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/88 - Release Date: 01/09/05

IS used as a source to find names within Ireland indeed it is used as a kind of census substitute but it does not give you the names of related families, only the person and his or her parish and only IF they were land owners. It was indeed only a Valuation of landed people... so if you ancestors were not land people then I have to assume they did not appear in this source either . Indeed irish research is a twist and turn of many little quirky things, not least being that our ancestors were not to know we would be looking for them in 2005.......... Cheers Cara

Where con you get a full copy of the entries in the Griffiths Valuation. I have found plenty of web sites where the names and locations are listed - but it would be great to find out more.

Dave, You are right about the lessee's being listed as well, I have a printed copy (1853) of the individual townlands for the Barony of Shillelagh and Upper Ballincor and it gives the lessee and who the lease is from.

From my files; This may help. The following has been copied from the back of CD case. Index to Griffith)s Valuation of Ireland, 1848-1864 from Heritage World & the Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc. This Family Archive CD is part of a growing collection of genealogical data, offering quick access to historical information on CD-ROM Family Archive CD 188 This Family Archive is an index to one of Ireland's premier genealogical resources, Griffith's Valuation. It references more than one million individuals who occupied property in Ireland between 1848 and 1864. Since no Irish census of the nineteenth century has survived, Griffith's Valuation is a record of extreme importance. It is, essentially, the only detailed guide to where in Ireland people lived during the mid-nineteenth century and what property they possessed. In effect, Griffith's Valuation can be used as a census substitute for the years before, during, and after the Great Famine. Few other records can be used to identify an Irish ancestor's exact place of origin, and only Griffith's Valuation links an individual to a specific townland and civil perish. This information is very beneficial since identifying an ancestor's townland and civil parish is the first step in Irish genealogical research. For your convenience and to make this important reference fully accessible, Broderbund has provided an electronic name index (searchable by name as well as location) that allows you to search for your ancestors quickly and easily. << About a year ago there was a discussion on this list about several missing baronies in the FHL Griffith's Valuation films of Tipperary. Microfilm # 0101756 has baronies of Eliogarty, Middlethird and Slieverdagh, and someone on the list thought it probably contained the missing baronies of Clanwilliam, Lower Ormond and Owney & Arra, even though these are not mentioned as being contained in this film. Question: Before I order this film at my FHC, does anyone know with certainty that these missing baronies are shown on # 0101756? >> I am the one who suggested that the film might contain the six baronies not on the other two films. At the time, the FHL catalog did not provide any information about which baronies are on the film. Since then the listings for Griffith's Valuation in the online version of the catalog have been greatly improved. The catalog currently lists only the three baronies which you gave for that film. That is probably all that the film has. Visit my homepage http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/djgriff/