Indeed a most interesting topic for discussion. It seems there were no hard and fast rules or customs. With regard to COI, practices may have differed from place to place but I have many baptisms with multiple sponsors, dating from the 1700s. Not so many recorded sponsors in the 1800s but still some there. Children were often baptised privately (especially if sickly) then formally 'received' into the church at a later date. This means, of course, that researchers should be aware that sometimes the official baptism may have been some months or years after the birth. I have found in my Co Cork COI research that sponsors were often family members, including quite young ones. This has helped with linking up various branches of families. Hope this is helpful. Best wishes, Patsy - New Zealand Subject: [IRL-WICKLOW] DEM SULLIVANS AND WITNESSES <snip> Church of Ireland marriages before or up until 1845 appear to have mostly > the father as a witness.........or an older brother in the registers I > have > transcribed BUT yet again > that is not set in cement. > <snip> > Church of Ireland well thats a custom in itself > Child was not baptised or christened within the church they have a > presentation thing and more than likely the child having been baptised at > home. > So there fore arises the thought from me- if the Child was born at > home............and not within a bulls roar of the mother's family then > who > did stand for her child in the Church of Ireland congregation > no one I assume no sponsors on records for babies baptism in the early > days > . > > So there you are my ten cents worth for you all to diagree with or add > your > thoughts to. > > It is a most interesting subject. > > Cheers from here > Cara

PS: forgot to mention....the witnesses/sponsors to my baptism and that of my sisters were family friends. Each of us girls had our own husband and wife team, that in my case, I was very close to. We were told as children that if anything was to happen to our parents we would be raised by the Godparents. I got my first prayer book, and first bible from my Godparents, who took it very seriously. Since my mother had no siblings in the US she had no family to stand in....Interestingly, my Godparents were also witnesses for my parents' marriage. m Mary Villalba AZTEC Communications, LLC (303) 290-8415 Tele Distinguished Past Governor, Rocky Mountain District Kiwanis International "A global organization of volunteers, dedicated to changing the world, one child and one community at a time."

I was raised "high" Episcopalian, which my father, a Catholic deserter, used to say "was as close as you could get to Catholic and still not have Christ on the cross." From my mother's perspective it was as close as she could get to COI & COE, since the church in the US was not called Anglican. Baptism usually took place just after birth, but in my case I wasn't baptized until I was 5 yrs. old, and my two younger sisters were baptized at the same time. Then when I turned 12, I went through "Confirmation", which was typical for that age, and the same thing was done in the Catholic church across the street from our church....after taking classes for 10 weeks we were all hauled by bus into Denver, where the service took place in the Episcopal cathedral, and we took our first communion. My names did not change with either service; I was given a first and middle name at birth, the same was true for my mother. As a child I was told my first name was for my grandmother, and my middle name came from a dear friend of my mother. I know things have changed in the Episcopal church, because when I tried to get married in the church for my second marriage, I was told they no longer married divorcees. By that time (21 yrs ago) we also had an Anglican church in Denver, and they told me the same thing. Of course, I questioned this based on the history of Protestantism but didn't get anywhere. So, when I called the Catholic church to see what they would say (my 2nd husband is Catholic), I was stunned that they said it was not a problem; they would simply annul the first marriage (even though it produced 4 children), we would have to wait 6 months, and give the Catholics $1000, and they would marry us! We ended up getting married in a Methodist church down the street from where we lived. I guess all of this is just to say there are no rules written in stone, and it seems rules are fluid and change with the times. hugs, m Mary Villalba AZTEC Communications, LLC (303) 290-8415 Tele Distinguished Past Governor, Rocky Mountain District Kiwanis International "A global organization of volunteers, dedicated to changing the world, one child and one community at a time."

Cara This is a great pile of useful information. I am sure it will add to the knowledge of all of us. regards Paddy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cara_Links" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 10:53 AM Subject: [IRL-WICKLOW] DEM SULLIVANS AND WITNESSES > John Milar sometimes Meyler was a miner so he would have been a known > friend or work colleague. > > McPhail name in Wicklow town is associated with the Newspaper there much > later than your time frame so > this man could have been a fore runner of that name > All this data simply matches mine now so where are we > > I have finally read the thoughts on marriage Witnesses and Baptism > witnesses > > > I am now probably going to open a storm or a deluge of whatever. > > Parish registers for Roman Catholic have Witnesses and sponsors now lets > stick to the RC side of things in this > part of my thoughts, and not be messing them up with Church of Ireland. > > Roman Catholic thoughts......... > 1- You need to know if they were churched or front roomed married meaning > were they married in a church? because some of these churches as you see > them, > TODAY did not exist back then. But the parish man kept a book he entered > names into when he remembered of course, we must allow that some marriages > will never be located. > Burnt registers- lost registers, and all that guff. > > So obviously some of the early witnesses lets say before 1845 would have > been family, or neighbour within the homeor beside the home > Marriages occurred in the down time of farming and not always on a weekend > ( still dont in Ireland) Common practice here in Australia was to wed on a > weekend. > I did see that someone raised the point that witnesses were oft clerks > etc > within the church circle as is the case of the Dempsey family at Avoca. > > I would not say that every witness you found on a certificate was related > to > the family in question getting married or having a baptism done.( Both > religions) > If that was the case I could certainly give you plenty of witnesses for > the > Co Wicklow area that may sort the family out for some of you > ...........but > you would need to know who you were looking for. > As Peggy has stated the Baptisms for Avoca do not or most often do not > state the mothers maiden name. I myself over a period of many years > working > in these registers have made in roads into maiden names, but some are > simply > based on a time frame and as I say, *its not for me to prove it its up to > you to check it all out* I like Peggy can only do my very best or very > worst > for you all. > > Church of Ireland marriages before or up until 1845 appear to have mostly > the father as a witness.........or an older brother in the registers I > have > transcribed BUT yet again > that is not set in cement. > > Also you need to look at the customs of the time- > Mothers of child just birthed ( RC) did not take the child for baptism if > done in the first few hours of birth that could be a neighbour a > grandmother even the mid wife and no doubt the clergy > arrived on horse back and did that at home as well. > So the child when baptised at the Church Service ............ was this > where > the RC people gave their children more names ???? just thought I might ask > that as I see a child can be registered Patrick Toole and ends up when he > is > located in the church parish register as Patrick Joseph John Michael Toole > etc .......... > > Church of Ireland well thats a custom in itself > Child was not baptised or christened within the church they have a > presentation thing and more than likely the child having been baptised at > home. > So there fore arises the thought from me- if the Child was born at > home............and not within a bulls roar of the mother's family then > who > did stand for her child in the Church of Ireland congregation > no one I assume no sponsors on records for babies baptism in the early > days > . > > So there you are my ten cents worth for you all to diagree with or add > your > thoughts to. > > It is a most interesting subject. > > Cheers from here > Cara > > *************************************** > 1- Only leave in the body of the mail what is relevant to your answer > > 2- Change the SUBJECT LINE to suit the body of your own Mail to List. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09 18:01:00

John Milar sometimes Meyler was a miner so he would have been a known friend or work colleague. McPhail name in Wicklow town is associated with the Newspaper there much later than your time frame so this man could have been a fore runner of that name All this data simply matches mine now so where are we I have finally read the thoughts on marriage Witnesses and Baptism witnesses I am now probably going to open a storm or a deluge of whatever. Parish registers for Roman Catholic have Witnesses and sponsors now lets stick to the RC side of things in this part of my thoughts, and not be messing them up with Church of Ireland. Roman Catholic thoughts......... 1- You need to know if they were churched or front roomed married meaning were they married in a church? because some of these churches as you see them, TODAY did not exist back then. But the parish man kept a book he entered names into when he remembered of course, we must allow that some marriages will never be located. Burnt registers- lost registers, and all that guff. So obviously some of the early witnesses lets say before 1845 would have been family, or neighbour within the homeor beside the home Marriages occurred in the down time of farming and not always on a weekend ( still dont in Ireland) Common practice here in Australia was to wed on a weekend. I did see that someone raised the point that witnesses were oft clerks etc within the church circle as is the case of the Dempsey family at Avoca. I would not say that every witness you found on a certificate was related to the family in question getting married or having a baptism done.( Both religions) If that was the case I could certainly give you plenty of witnesses for the Co Wicklow area that may sort the family out for some of you ...........but you would need to know who you were looking for. As Peggy has stated the Baptisms for Avoca do not or most often do not state the mothers maiden name. I myself over a period of many years working in these registers have made in roads into maiden names, but some are simply based on a time frame and as I say, *its not for me to prove it its up to you to check it all out* I like Peggy can only do my very best or very worst for you all. Church of Ireland marriages before or up until 1845 appear to have mostly the father as a witness.........or an older brother in the registers I have transcribed BUT yet again that is not set in cement. Also you need to look at the customs of the time- Mothers of child just birthed ( RC) did not take the child for baptism if done in the first few hours of birth that could be a neighbour a grandmother even the mid wife and no doubt the clergy arrived on horse back and did that at home as well. So the child when baptised at the Church Service ............ was this where the RC people gave their children more names ???? just thought I might ask that as I see a child can be registered Patrick Toole and ends up when he is located in the church parish register as Patrick Joseph John Michael Toole etc .......... Church of Ireland well thats a custom in itself Child was not baptised or christened within the church they have a presentation thing and more than likely the child having been baptised at home. So there fore arises the thought from me- if the Child was born at home............and not within a bulls roar of the mother's family then who did stand for her child in the Church of Ireland congregation no one I assume no sponsors on records for babies baptism in the early days . So there you are my ten cents worth for you all to diagree with or add your thoughts to. It is a most interesting subject. Cheers from here Cara

Cara- thanks so much for putting together your thoughts on witnesses sponsors etc, Makes us realise how lucky we are to find even just one of our rellies. I see you know who John Milar/Meylor was- my witness at John Nile and Bridget Sulavans Church of Ireland wedding Wicklow Town 1847. Do you know where he came from, who he married etc etc, Im also thinking a miner in Wicklow Town must have been an invited guest rather than someone passng by and so a clue may be got from him. Carol On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Cara_Links <[email protected]> wrote: > John Milar sometimes Meyler was a miner so he would have been a known > friend or work colleague.

Hi Cara, In regard to R.C. Baptisms....I can only add, from my experience, looking at microfilm of handwritten Church Registers, there are a scarce few children with more than one given name. I also wonder where all the extra names came from. I don't see "middle names" in the written records or the indexes that I look at. Catholics have a Sacrament called Confirmation (usually when a child is a teen). At this ceremony, the child confirms and renews the promises/statements made for them by their sponsors, during Baptism, assuming that now, a teen would have the power of reason and can answer for his or herself. The Confirmation Candidate takes a new "Baptism" name (we call it a Confirmation name). So I also wonder, how or why an Anthony is called Michael, after his father, who was also Baptized Anthony, but also known as Michael! And when I speak to people in Ireland about their forebearers, I always have to remember to ask, is that their maiden or married name? In our time, in my country, a person can't get married in the "Official" R.C. Church/Community, or Sponsor (stand up) for a child in Baptism without having been Confirmed, themselves. I think that probably, that was true a century ago as well. Not sure, though, except that our modern customs are a reflection on our past customs, for the most part. The change in custom seems to become less strict, rather than more stringent. ie: Limbo, the 24 hr. rule for Communion, fasting from meat on Fridays, touching a host, etc. Anyway, to add fuel to the fire, I wonder if one of the names in the string could be a Confirmation name. So there, Peggy In a message dated 2/15/2009 3:11:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: So the child when baptised at the Church Service ............ was this where the RC people gave their children more names ???? just thought I might ask that as I see a child can be registered Patrick Toole and ends up when he is located in the church parish register as Patrick Joseph John Michael Toole etc .......... **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=fe bemailfooterNO62)

Cara, Thanks so much for the information. You had already told me my Great Grandparents were probably married at home for their 1834 marriage. Hadn't thought about RC baptisims being at home also. Catholics usually give their children a Saints name for baptism other than their legal name and they also have a Godmother and Godfather. Usually a relative. Hope this means you are feeling much better, I sure hope so. I have learned so much from you and I really appreciate you. Gail Researching Long, Holden and Hennessy

If you have some idea of time and you know the names I can have a look at the Chaplains Returns at Parramatta for you. Cheers for now from Valerie in sunny Sydney -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cara_Links Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2009 10:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [IRL-WICKLOW] MARRIED IN INDIA? IRELAND - AUS CONNECTED I have a girl born in Australia - okay so many were born there or here but his one is the one that interests me..............she is either on her way via India to England when she married a man on his way from Ireland to Australia ( Tasmania to be exact you know the Island state of Australia ?) and they then proceed to have a few children. Now how would one prove they married in India is a question I would love to solve not speculate on ............ So any ideas of how to prove this one? Now in regards to Soldier families I am going to type up a family that marched here and there and show you how hard it is to research these families when they have a child in one country bury it in another and have another in another country - my heart goes to those who are researching the the service men ......... Cara *************************************** 1- Only leave in the body of the mail what is relevant to your answer 2- Change the SUBJECT LINE to suit the body of your own Mail to List. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, is it me, James Higgins that you are trying to reach? Emailed Cara offline but no response yet. Jim HIGGINS G G'son of Capt James Higgins and Sarah Jane (Luke), Tigroney, Avoca, Co Wicklow late 1800's-1936

Dear Cara, Did you get my message off list ? James. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Cara_Links Sent: 12 February 2009 10:35 To: [email protected] Subject: [IRL-WICKLOW] JAMES HIGGINS PLEASE James If you are still a member here please contact me off the list Cara *************************************** 1- Only leave in the body of the mail what is relevant to your answer 2- Change the SUBJECT LINE to suit the body of your own Mail to List. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1947 - Release Date: 2/11/2009 6:11 PM

The personnel and subscribers to the hospital are listed at http://www.eppi.ac.uk/eppi/digbib/view?did=c1:10839&p=277

For what it's worth my comment is meant to help. If this lady was born in Tasmania (or any other State in Australia)then there will be a record of her parents in Tasmania archives i.e. birth registration records. The next question to ask is how do you know she was on her way to England via India i.e. what evidence do you have to establish that fact. It is certainly possible that a ship might have returned to England from Tasmania via India and if she was a passenger on such a journey it seems to me that Tasmanian archives would also have a record of that. You seem to be suggesting that the couple met in India and married there is that correct ? The next logical question is what happened then, did the couple return to Tasmania ? If so, and if they died there then their death certificate might contain details of where and when they were married - Victorian death certificates have a requirement that asks IF DECEASED WAS MARRIED (1)Where and at what Age (2) to Whom. I'm not sure of other States but it is worth investigating. I hope these suggestions help. James. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Cara_Links Sent: 12 February 2009 10:56 To: [email protected] Subject: [IRL-WICKLOW] MARRIED IN INDIA? IRELAND - AUS CONNECTED I have a girl born in Australia - okay so many were born there or here but his one is the one that interests me..............she is either on her way via India to England when she married a man on his way from Ireland to Australia ( Tasmania to be exact you know the Island state of Australia ?) and they then proceed to have a few children. Now how would one prove they married in India is a question I would love to solve not speculate on ............ So any ideas of how to prove this one? Now in regards to Soldier families I am going to type up a family that marched here and there and show you how hard it is to research these families when they have a child in one country bury it in another and have another in another country - my heart goes to those who are researching the the service men ......... Cara *************************************** 1- Only leave in the body of the mail what is relevant to your answer 2- Change the SUBJECT LINE to suit the body of your own Mail to List. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1947 - Release Date: 2/11/2009 6:11 PM

I have a girl born in Australia - okay so many were born there or here but his one is the one that interests me..............she is either on her way via India to England when she married a man on his way from Ireland to Australia ( Tasmania to be exact you know the Island state of Australia ?) and they then proceed to have a few children. Now how would one prove they married in India is a question I would love to solve not speculate on ............ So any ideas of how to prove this one? Now in regards to Soldier families I am going to type up a family that marched here and there and show you how hard it is to research these families when they have a child in one country bury it in another and have another in another country - my heart goes to those who are researching the the service men ......... Cara

James If you are still a member here please contact me off the list Cara

Hi Cara The IGI "All Resources" option?might be helpful - just type in India. Stephanie in California . . . . still searching for Wicklow Wheatley/Whately -----Original Message----- From: Cara_Links <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 3:55 pm Subject: [IRL-WICKLOW] MARRIED IN INDIA? IRELAND - AUS CONNECTED I have a girl born in Australia - okay so many were born there or here but his one is the one that interests me..............she is either on her way via India to England when she married a man on his way from Ireland to Australia ( Tasmania to be exact you know the Island state of Australia ?) and they then proceed to have a few children. Now how would one prove they married in India is a question I would love to solve not speculate on ............ So any ideas of how to prove this one? Now in regards to Soldier families I am going to type up a family that marched here and there and show you how hard it is to research these families when they have a child in one country bury it in another and have another in another country - my heart goes to those who are researching the the service men ......... Cara *************************************** 1- Only leave in the body of the mail what is relevant to your answer 2- Change the SUBJECT LINE to suit the body of your own Mail to List. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

County of Wicklow Securities :- On election of the present Treasurer, John Revell of Seapark esq., he entered into security, together with William Revell of Ballymoney and Thomas Revell of Castletimon, esqr., in the sum of 1,500 and that Mr. Revell entered into additioanl recognizance, himself in 4,000 together with the said William Revell and John Revell of Ardoyne esq., in the sum of 2,000 each which securities have been approved of by the Grand Jury at this last Lent Assizes Deficiencies:- No presentments have been made within seven years last past, on account of any defalcation in the treasurer or collector's accounts of said county 18th March 1822 Samuel Bury Secretary Grand Jury County of Wicklow

Yes I am one of those Hotkey users and now asking questions Would the person researching this name contact me off the list please. And repeat your request about the Ford/e name to me. Cara

Okay today is first time for almost a week or more that anyone associated with the Hotkey internet provider has received mails. Myself included wow hundreds of them began pouring in a few minutes back...........now should a Hotkey person ask a question or answer a question that has been discussed I ask you all to exercise your niceness and be polite. If any of you have been trying to reach me let me assure you I have been trying to use Yahoo...........well that is an experience in itself these days, and sometimes what is sent is not. So I am about to now update and look at mails and hopefully get on with sharing data with you all. Who knows we may all be down again tomorrow well those of us that use Hotkey. But for any of you with a spare prayer- please spare one for those fire fighters out there giving there all in our Bush fires and a another prayer for all those who have lost their loved ones in this cursed fire. Great to be back Cara

I hope someone can help me. I just discovered another Byrne connection. Does anyone have anything on a Mary Byrne born c 1785, who married James Wall in 1829 in Dublin? Cheers Pat