Now I don't want to start a flame war - I had ancestors killed at New Ross (Republicans). There were atrocities on both sides - but what went on prior to the rebellion would have given me reason to fight I think (or would like to think). In any event, I read Musgrave's Report - simply to provide a balance to most of the information I have been exposed to in the past - knowing that both sides would naturally see things from their own perspective (See Hemingway's "For Whom the Bell Tolls"). Musgrave was difficult for me to read - perhaps not 100% accurate any more than materials from (our) side are. But it was in fact not allowed to be published at the time - the authorities feared that it might well start things up all over again. It was many years before it was published, and is in most reference libraries or available through interlibrary loan. Many who started the rebellion, looking to France and the US, were idealists and Protestant - some were well to do and therefore had a lot on the line. They soon realized they had unleashed a worldwind however, and many stepped back, leaving the more militant on both sides to go at it. This did not save many of them in the end and they were either killed in skirmishes or later - after trial - by execution. It must be said that there were great acts of heroism and humanity on both sides - with many laying their lives on the line to try to save people from the other side. A side bar (unknown to many) is that there was an aborted rebellion in Newfoundland in 1800 because many United Irishmen were members of British Regiments stationed there. They plotted a violent take over because things there were much as in Ireland - Penal Laws and all - but the RC Bishop got wind of it (some say through the confessional). He alerted the British Officers, and the Irishmen were taken. Several were hanged in NF, and the rest taken to Halifax because authorities feared the Irish populace just might rise up at the sight of too many hangings and lashings. The Bishop was rewarded with a pension from the government of 50 pounds upon his retirement back to Co Wexford in old age. After some time there, he was reading in a chair and a candle "fell" catching him on fire. It took him 6 days to die. But his letters of the day are somewhat appalling. He - like many in the Church hierarchy was pro establishment (or to be more fair - pro law and order - frightened by out-of-control mob violence, no matter how justified). Some of what he says in writing about the Irish Republicans and about the men hanged in NF (to whom he gave final rites) is rather unseemly to put it mildly. But I think people should read both sides - taking each with a grain of salt - history is like that - as is journalism - afterall. It is forgotten that many said they regretted ever following Father Roche (at New Ross and Wexford) - and General Roche is rarely mentioned because he and some followers either took or were given poison and died in their cells rather than be publicly butchered. I am not related to either - so far as I know - but I suspect they knew they had little chance of winning, and hoped to send a message without things becoming too extreme. Both saved many Protestant?Loyalist lives and many Protests/Loyalists saved RC/Protestant/Republican lives --- this as a counterbalance to the atrocities, as I see it. War is like that. Just my two cents worth. I hope it helps. Jim

Jim; You are correct, there is no harsher war than that between brothers or countrymen. Look at the US Civil War. The worst ever fought. In 70 years I have studied much. I am no longer Catholic or Prodesrant. But allow me to tell you this; after years of research into both religionand politics, the catholic church has much to answer for. I have no axes to grind, that is a simple statement of fact. Thom Sutton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Roache" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 4:12 PM Subject: [IRL-WEXFORD] Musgrave's Report > Now I don't want to start a flame war - I had ancestors killed at New Ross > (Republicans). There were atrocities on both sides - but what went on > prior > to the rebellion would have given me reason to fight I think (or would > like > to think). In any event, I read Musgrave's Report - simply to provide a > balance to most of the information I have been exposed to in the past - > knowing that both sides would naturally see things from their own > perspective (See Hemingway's "For Whom the Bell Tolls"). > > Musgrave was difficult for me to read - perhaps not 100% accurate any more > than materials from (our) side are. But it was in fact not allowed to be > published at the time - the authorities feared that it might well start > things up all over again. It was many years before it was published, and > is > in most reference libraries or available through interlibrary loan. > > Many who started the rebellion, looking to France and the US, were > idealists > and Protestant - some were well to do and therefore had a lot on the line. > They soon realized they had unleashed a worldwind however, and many > stepped > back, leaving the more militant on both sides to go at it. This did not > save > many of them in the end and they were either killed in skirmishes or > later - > after trial - by execution. > > It must be said that there were great acts of heroism and humanity on both > sides - with many laying their lives on the line to try to save people > from > the other side. > > A side bar (unknown to many) is that there was an aborted rebellion in > Newfoundland in 1800 because many United Irishmen were members of British > Regiments stationed there. > > They plotted a violent take over because things there were much as in > Ireland - Penal Laws and all - but the RC Bishop got wind of it (some say > through the confessional). He alerted the British Officers, and the > Irishmen > were taken. Several were hanged in NF, and the rest taken to Halifax > because > authorities feared the Irish populace just might rise up at the sight of > too > many hangings and lashings. > > The Bishop was rewarded with a pension from the government of 50 pounds > upon > his retirement back to Co Wexford in old age. After some time there, he > was > reading in a chair and a candle "fell" catching him on fire. It took him 6 > days to die. > > But his letters of the day are somewhat appalling. He - like many in the > Church hierarchy was pro establishment (or to be more fair - pro law and > order - frightened by out-of-control mob violence, no matter how > justified). > Some of what he says in writing about the Irish Republicans and about the > men hanged in NF (to whom he gave final rites) is rather unseemly to put > it > mildly. > > But I think people should read both sides - taking each with a grain of > salt - history is like that - as is journalism - afterall. It is forgotten > that many said they regretted ever following Father Roche (at New Ross and > Wexford) - and General Roche is rarely mentioned because he and some > followers either took or were given poison and died in their cells rather > than be publicly butchered. > > I am not related to either - so far as I know - but I suspect they knew > they > had little chance of winning, and hoped to send a message without things > becoming too extreme. Both saved many Protestant?Loyalist lives and many > Protests/Loyalists saved RC/Protestant/Republican lives --- this as a > counterbalance to the atrocities, as I see it. War is like that. > > Just my two cents worth. I hope it helps. > > Jim > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jim, Your article was so interesting about Musgroves Report and I wanted to tell you that. I just wanted to tell you that our ancestors intermarried with Roache. I keep running into it when I TRY to find out where our ancestors came from in Ireland. The name is Hoare and from what we were told they came from Wexford . The intriging thing about it is that they left Ireland ca. 1826 and it is said that they must have left due to pressure to do so. And I would love to know if that is TRUE. James F. Hoare (Wexford) was b. 1802 (very close) ma. Bridget Spence there ca. 1830 and she was the daughter of a Michael spence & Marcella- no maiden name. My problem is I cannot find them there but they are in Cheshire 1832 . Can you give me any idea what to do to find them and if those circumstances might be true about why they left Ireland and where were the Roaches from? ?Wexford and any links of your Roaches to Hoare? Thank You-your response would be soooooo appreciated! [email protected] Jim Roache <[email protected]> wrote: HNow I don't want to start a flame war - I had ancestors killed at New Ross (Republicans). There were atrocities on both sides - but what went on prior to the rebellion would have given me reason to fight I think (or would like to think). In any event, I read Musgrave's Report - simply to provide a balance to most of the information I have been exposed to in the past - knowing that both sides would naturally see things from their own perspective (See Hemingway's "For Whom the Bell Tolls"). Musgrave was difficult for me to read - perhaps not 100% accurate any more than materials from (our) side are. But it was in fact not allowed to be published at the time - the authorities feared that it might well start things up all over again. It was many years before it was published, and is in most reference libraries or available through interlibrary loan. Many who started the rebellion, looking to France and the US, were idealists and Protestant - some were well to do and therefore had a lot on the line. They soon realized they had unleashed a worldwind however, and many stepped back, leaving the more militant on both sides to go at it. This did not save many of them in the end and they were either killed in skirmishes or later - after trial - by execution. It must be said that there were great acts of heroism and humanity on both sides - with many laying their lives on the line to try to save people from the other side. A side bar (unknown to many) is that there was an aborted rebellion in Newfoundland in 1800 because many United Irishmen were members of British Regiments stationed there. They plotted a violent take over because things there were much as in Ireland - Penal Laws and all - but the RC Bishop got wind of it (some say through the confessional). He alerted the British Officers, and the Irishmen were taken. Several were hanged in NF, and the rest taken to Halifax because authorities feared the Irish populace just might rise up at the sight of too many hangings and lashings. The Bishop was rewarded with a pension from the government of 50 pounds upon his retirement back to Co Wexford in old age. After some time there, he was reading in a chair and a candle "fell" catching him on fire. It took him 6 days to die. But his letters of the day are somewhat appalling. He - like many in the Church hierarchy was pro establishment (or to be more fair - pro law and order - frightened by out-of-control mob violence, no matter how justified). Some of what he says in writing about the Irish Republicans and about the men hanged in NF (to whom he gave final rites) is rather unseemly to put it mildly. But I think people should read both sides - taking each with a grain of salt - history is like that - as is journalism - afterall. It is forgotten that many said they regretted ever following Father Roche (at New Ross and Wexford) - and General Roche is rarely mentioned because he and some followers either took or were given poison and died in their cells rather than be publicly butchered. I am not related to either - so far as I know - but I suspect they knew they had little chance of winning, and hoped to send a message without things becoming too extreme. Both saved many Protestant?Loyalist lives and many Protests/Loyalists saved RC/Protestant/Republican lives --- this as a counterbalance to the atrocities, as I see it. War is like that. Just my two cents worth. I hope it helps. Jim ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message