Hello, There are 52 instances of men born in Tipperary in the Trafalgar Ancestors Index from the National Archives site. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/trafalgarancestors Click on Advanced Search and under Birth Place, type in - tip* Every little bit helps. Christine Walsh - Melbourne, Australia

----- Original Message ----- From: "Maree Ring" <M.Ring@utas.edu.au> To: <AUS-Tasmania-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-Tas] Transportation > Dear All, > > Just adding a little to Ray's info... which I hope is of interest... > > At 04:54 PM 16/09/2005, Ray Edmunds wrote: > <snip> > > >It may come as a surprise to find that transporting British people started > >in the reign of Elizabeth 1 and continued until 1875. > > The first Act authorising transportation was passed in 1597 in the reign of > Queen Elizabeth I and was entitled 'For the Punishment of Rogues, Vagabonds > and Sturdy Beggars....to be banished out of this Realm....' This provided > two forms of punishment, firstly employment in the Royal Galleys and > secondly, banishment from the Realm. > Copyright > > >Hope this is of interest. > > > >Ray > > Maree > > > ==== AUS-Tasmania Mailing List ==== > Don't waste valuable archive space discussing technical or other problems on the mailing list. > E-mail the list admin direct at either > AUS-Tasmania-Admin@rootsweb.com or austas@tasfamily.net.au > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.3/107 - Release Date: 9/20/05 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.5/177 - Release Date: 11/21/05

----- Original Message ----- From: "Tocal convicts" <convicts@tocal.com> To: <AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 7:18 AM Subject: [PJ] Convicts Thomas Ward- Canada (3) 1815 & Kitty Sheene- Brothers (1) 1824 > Glen > a surprisingly high proportion of convicts had migrated from their > county of birth to another county or country before they were > transported. In fact one study found that 38 per cent of the English and > Irish convicts transported to NSW between 1817 and 1840 had already left > their county of birth before transportation. Source is "Convict Workers > - Reinterpreting Australia's Past", by Stephen Nicholas (ed.), > Cambridge, 1988, p54. > In the case of my Tocal convicts, 40 of them (29 per cent) were tried in > a county other than that of their birth, and eight of them in a > different country to that of their birth. > Regards > Brian > > > ==== AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS Mailing List ==== > Don't forget to *thank* people should they reply to your question ! > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 9/16/05 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.5/177 - Release Date: 11/21/05

Dear Listers, I contributed some messages re transportation and sentences to this list some weeks ago, which started a small thread. In a long overdue, (as you will see by the original dates on the emails) cleaning out of my email inbox, I found I had not deleted *all* of them on the subject. I am forwarding those that I feel may be of some interest to the list, which were posted to various Australian lists - in the past few months - as I find them. This particular one is quite long, because it includes both the original email and the answer. Of course, the original question should be read first to understand the context of the answer. Hope you find them interesting, Wynnette, in Queensland, Australia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Edmunds" <Wattle@iprimus.com.au> To: <AUS-Tasmania-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 4:54 PM Subject: Re: [AUS-Tas] Transportation > Hi, > It is really important to view sentences according to the laws which > prevailed at the time. What may seem petty by today's standard were still > serious crimes prior to consolidation in 1832 - 1837, which removed hundreds > of archaic crimes from the statutes and the death sentence for same. > Although this was substituted by transportation. > > Following is an excerpt from a bio I'm writing: > "Crime and punishment > Amongst the two hundred and twenty offences subject to death were: private > stealing (picking pockets) of more than one shilling, shoplifting goods of > more than five shillings in value, stealing articles worth more than two > pounds in any house or on the river, stealing cattle, horses or sheep, > cutting down trees in an avenue or garden, helping another to steal goods, > treason and petty treason, counterfeiting gold and silver coin, stealing an > heiress, pulling down houses or churches, sending threatening letters, deer > stealing, second offence, returning from transportation. Theft or Burglary > was treated more harshly if it was done during the hours of darkness. > Contrast these with examples, which were not punishable by death or > transportation and were considered misdemeanours: perjury, fraud, conspiracy > to defraud, stealing growing cabbages or turnips, deer or dogs, robbing > orchards, stealing wood or trees, stealing fire works or throwing them > around the streets, robbing customs and excise, setting fire to a house to > defraud insurance, conspiring to raise wages. It is true to say that a crime > against property was dealt with more severely than a crime against the > person. Until 1803 attempted murder was treated as a misdemeanour, unless > the injured party was maimed. It wasn't until the latter part of the 19th > century that children were treated differently than adults. In 1833 for > example a child of nine was sentenced to death for stealing goods worth two > pence. He was held in the condemned cells at Newgate and was reprieved, but > only just in time! > > Governments were more concerned about the deterrent nature of the punishment > than any reformatory effect. And this is the key to understanding the > severity of punishments in the British penal codes certainly until the > latter part of the nineteenth century. > > Gradually the public turned against capital punishment for all but the most > serious crimes, and by about 1810 the practice was hanging for murder only. > Nevertheless, it wasn't until 1861 when the Consolidation Statutes were > passed that the death penalty was retained only for murder, treason, piracy > with violence and setting fire to dockyards and arsenals. In the meantime > sentences of seven, fourteen years and life became the norm whether for > prison or transportation. This had the effect of crowding more prisoners in > already overcrowded goals and hulks. It wasn't until 1821 that the first > penitentiary was completed - Millbank Penitentiary - which housed 1000 > prisoners. > > By the latter half of the eighteenth century transportation had become an > accepted alternative, certainly an economic solution, since it removed the > offenders from the kingdom. It was a way of emptying overcrowded prisons > and hulks; it was also a means of supplying cheap labour to support > colonization. Although more humane, it was still cruel because it separated > the convicted person from their family, and wrenched mothers and fathers > from their spouses and children. If a father was transported it meant that > his wife and children had to rely on charity to survive, and many didn't! > With relatively few exceptions it was exile for life. Apart from the > physical punishment and dislocation of families, there was the mental > anguish and hopelessness of never being able to return home. > > It may come as a surprise to find that transporting British people started > in the reign of Elizabeth 1 and continued until 1875. From 1610 until the > start of the American War of Independence in 1776, just over 40,000 convicts > were transported to Virginia and Maryland. Between 1842 and 1875 some 9000 > were dispatched to Gibraltar to build a fortress, although they were able to > return to Britain after completion of their sentence. The British used > native convicts of their colonies to provide cheap labour to build the > infrastructure in various settlements. These included Sumatra 4-6000 and > 15,000 to the Straits Settlements (Singapore, Penang and Malacca). The > British weren't alone in this policy. France shipped 24,000 to New > Caledonia from 1852 -1879, and about 14, 000 to French Guyana between > 1855-1911. Russia transported internally and externally over 2,000,000, the > principal destination being Siberia. " > Copyright > > Hope this is of interest. > > Ray > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karen Groeneveld" <groeneve@iimetro.com.au> > To: <AUS-Tasmania-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 7:49 PM > Subject: [AUS-Tas] Transportation > > > > Hi everyone > > > > I've been enjoying this discussion. > > > > I remember reading some submissions (was it on the National Archives of > > Ireland website??) from family members in defence of their convicted. > There > > seem to be quite a few in the later years of transportion which suggest > that > > desperate people committed crimes deliberately to be transported - I > > remember reading some cases where the judge ordered them a free passage > > (without conviction) once it became clear that their crimes had been > > committed purely with the intention of being transported out of the hell > > that must have been famine affected Ireland and rural England. I > certainly > > wonder if one of mine wasn't up to the same tricks - Jacob was convicted > at > > 15 of stealing a jacket after a previous conviction a year earlier of > > stealing lead pipe off a building - his brother had been transported 12 mo > > earlier. Jacob went on to become a model citizen in Tas - farming and > > acquiring land (something he could never have hoped to do in his native > > England). Perhaps he was just a Lad! > > > > Almost all of mine where single when they came, so probably had everything > > to gain. Notably, the one who had left family behind committed suicide > many > > years later - so you have to wonder! > > > > As for whether their sentences would stand up today? Based on my four, I > > don't think so somehow: > > 10 yrs for stealing a jacket (previous conviction of stealing lead pipe > for > > which he was whipped and received 3 mo hard labour, at age 14) > > 7 yrs for stealing a sheep (no previous con) > > 10 yrs for killing a sheep (previous con, stealing money) > > 10 yrs for stealing a coat and shawl (previous con). > > > > Cheers > > > > Karen Groeneveld > > in cold Queanbeyan (lots of snow on the hills today) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.5/177 - Release Date: 11/21/05

Geralyn, In your search for your Ellen Carr in New Jersey, you may wish to explore Keansburg on the Raritan Bay. I went to school there at St. Ann's which was located on Carr avenue. I have not had the necessity for reading the Town's history, but the Keansburg Public Library on Church Street may know of such a work. It would be worth a call. The Irish tended to cluster together in the US--and Kean, Keane, etc, is another name one encounters in CoTipperary. The pattern of development along the Jersey Shore in the early centuries was, first, to clear the land and fill in the meadows for farming. By the last quarter of the 19th century (at least), developers were converting the farms into lots for construction of simple beach cottages to give people relief from the heat, pollution, and disease in the cities. My impression is that this Kean was an original holder of the farmland and that the Carr was a developer. They wouldn't have had to live in Keansburg to do business there, but it is a possibility. Could this be helpful in searching for your Ellen Carr's family in the US? Rosemary

Hi Wayne, You sound as if you may be from Australia. I don't have any information for you though I thought I would make contact as we appear to be researching CARRs from the same area. I don't know whether you saw my recent request. Apparently CARR is not an overly common name in this area so perhaps there may be a connection somewhere. Regards, Christine -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Fitzgibbon [mailto:fitzgiwr@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 03:03 To: IRL-TIPPERARY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [TIP] Re: Carr G'day List Members, I would appreciate help uncovering information on my great great grandmother (Annie or Mary Carr) in Tipperary. Family information indictates that she married my great great grandfather (John Fitzgibbon) around 1836 and they appeared to have lived or settled around Templemore. Regards Wayne __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com ==== IRL-TIPPERARY Mailing List ==== Check out the Coroners Inquests: http://www.rootsweb.com/~`irltip2/inquests/index.htm -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.0/167 - Release Date: 11/11/05

Mary Carr married John Fitzgibbon 11/13/1836 in Templemore. The sponsors were Matthew Kerby [Kirby] and Mary Keogh. I don't have any of the records for their children, however. Janet On 11/16/05, Wayne Fitzgibbon <fitzgiwr@yahoo.com> wrote: > > G'day List Members, > > I would appreciate help uncovering information on my > great great grandmother (Annie or Mary Carr) in > Tipperary. Family information indictates that she > married my great great grandfather (John Fitzgibbon) > around 1836 and they appeared to have lived or settled > around Templemore. > > Regards > > Wayne > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. > http://farechase.yahoo.com > > > ==== IRL-TIPPERARY Mailing List ==== > Check out the Coroners Inquests: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~irltip2/inquests/index.htm > >

I have a Baptism of a John Lonergan, born Carrick on Suir in 1838 and the address on the baptism record is "definitely" Whites Lane. There is no record of Whites Lane in Griffiths Valuation and I am aware that Lanes in Carrick were given Local names after some prominent local who lived there. Is there anyone on the list that has come across the name Whites Lane in Carrick in there own research or any lister with local knowlege who could tell me were it was. Regards David

Janet, Thanks for the info. I appreciate your help. Regards Wayne --- Janet Crawford <reojan@gmail.com> wrote: > Mary Carr married John Fitzgibbon 11/13/1836 in > Templemore. The sponsors > were Matthew Kerby [Kirby] and Mary Keogh. I don't > have any of the records > for their children, however. > Janet > > On 11/16/05, Wayne Fitzgibbon <fitzgiwr@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > G'day List Members, > > > > I would appreciate help uncovering information on > my > > great great grandmother (Annie or Mary Carr) in > > Tipperary. Family information indictates that she > > married my great great grandfather (John > Fitzgibbon) > > around 1836 and they appeared to have lived or > settled > > around Templemore. > > > > Regards > > > > Wayne > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in > one click. > > http://farechase.yahoo.com > > > > > > ==== IRL-TIPPERARY Mailing List ==== > > Check out the Coroners Inquests: > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~irltip2/inquests/index.htm > > > > > > > ==== IRL-TIPPERARY Mailing List ==== > Join us for a chat about researching families in > Tipperary (and > everything else!). 'Open House Sessions' every > Thursday/Friday (depending on your location). > Starting at 11pm Thursday Tipperary Time. This means > the time will be 11pm in England; 6 pm in New York > and Montreal; 3pm in California and Vancouver; 7am > (Friday) in Perth; 10am (Friday) in Sydney; 12 noon > (Friday) in Wellington. > http://www.rootsweb.com/~irltip2/chat/index.htm > > __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com

My gg-gmother Ellen CARR was born about 1835 in Ireland. In 1859, married John HAROLD in Paterson, New Jersey (US). The HAROLDs came from along the Tipperary-Laois border. They left documentation saying they were from Tipperary, and I have found them living in Ireland just across the border at Coolowley, Co. Laois in the 1840s, shortly before they left Ireland for the US. However, I have been able to find out only a little information about Ellen Carr's family in 15 years of research. According to her death (1880, Paterson, New Jersey) and marriage records, Ellen Carr's parents were Terence and Mary. That's all I know... Ellen appears to have had no other family in Paterson from what I can tell. Has anyone seen a Terence Carr in Irish records? The family was very likely Catholic. Geralyn Wood Barry in Oregon, USA Janet Crawford wrote: >Hi Christine, I collect Carr marriages in Tipp and don't have yours as >Downie, but I have something close that you might tuck away. In 1840 James >Carr married Mary Donnell in Galbally; they may have lived in Tipp after >that. Could be, however, that it was a C of I marriage and I don't have all >of those. > Janet > >

Hi Rosemary. I never would have thought of Bridgett. I had an aunt who was christened Bridgett but was called Bridie. Thanks. Julie

Hi John. I thought it may have been short for Elizabeth as well. Thanks Julie

G'day List Members, I would appreciate help uncovering information on my great great grandmother (Annie or Mary Carr) in Tipperary. Family information indictates that she married my great great grandfather (John Fitzgibbon) around 1836 and they appeared to have lived or settled around Templemore. Regards Wayne __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com

I have updated the Ireland books section of my website. New books have been added in all sections: Parish History, Local History, Genealogy, History, Fiction. New volunteers have also been added to do lookups in the books. You can find the links by going to the URL below my name. At the top of my homepage, under Ireland, click on Ireland Books. That will take you to the Ireland Books Discussion Mailing List website. At the bottom of that page, you will find links to both the Parish History Books and to the Ireland Book List. If you would like to add books to this website, just use the convenient forms at the bottom of all the book pages. If you would like to volunteer to do lookups, just email me off list. If your email address has changed and you are a lookup volunteer, please write me off list, giving the the book category and title. -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

Thanks Janet for this information. -----Original Message----- From: Janet Crawford [mailto:reojan@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, 14 November 2005 07:28 To: IRL-TIPPERARY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [TIP] CARR It is just over the border and not all that far from Tipp Town. Galbally would be her home parish but not be an indication of where James would have lived. Probably not all that far away though. The date is good as well as the husband's name and the wife's Christian name. It could also be that this was her second marriage having married a Donnell first. Something like that can create real confusion. Janet

Hi Janet, Thanks for your reply. I have had another look at Catherine CARR's marriage certificate. Her Mother's surname is definitely given as DOWNIE although I note that Catherine didn't sign her name. I suppose it is possible therefore that the person who wrote down the information misheard it. Can you tell me where Galbally is? Is it close to Tipperary? Regards, Christine -----Original Message----- From: Janet Crawford [mailto:reojan@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, 13 November 2005 20:04 To: IRL-TIPPERARY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [TIP] CARR Hi Christine, I collect Carr marriages in Tipp and don't have yours as Downie, but I have something close that you might tuck away. In 1840 James Carr married Mary Donnell in Galbally; they may have lived in Tipp after that. Could be, however, that it was a C of I marriage and I don't have all of those. Janet

It is just over the border and not all that far from Tipp Town. Galbally would be her home parish but not be an indication of where James would have lived. Probably not all that far away though. The date is good as well as the husband's name and the wife's Christian name. It could also be that this was her second marriage having married a Donnell first. Something like that can create real confusion. Janet On 11/13/05, Christine Tregonning <CJTregonning@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > > Hi Janet, > > Thanks for your reply. > > I have had another look at Catherine CARR's marriage certificate. Her > Mother's surname is definitely given as DOWNIE although I note that > Catherine didn't sign her name. I suppose it is possible therefore that > the > person who wrote down the information misheard it. > > Can you tell me where Galbally is? Is it close to Tipperary? > > Regards, > > Christine > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Janet Crawford [mailto:reojan@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, 13 November 2005 20:04 > To: IRL-TIPPERARY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [TIP] CARR > > Hi Christine, I collect Carr marriages in Tipp and don't have yours as > Downie, but I have something close that you might tuck away. In 1840 James > Carr married Mary Donnell in Galbally; they may have lived in Tipp after > that. Could be, however, that it was a C of I marriage and I don't have > all > of those. > Janet > > > > > ==== IRL-TIPPERARY Mailing List ==== > Join us for a chat about researching families in Tipperary (and > everything else!). 'Open House Sessions' every Thursday/Friday (depending > on your location). Starting at 11pm Thursday Tipperary Time. This means the > time will be 11pm in England; 6 pm in New York and Montreal; 3pm in > California and Vancouver; 7am (Friday) in Perth; 10am (Friday) in Sydney; 12 > noon (Friday) in Wellington. > http://www.rootsweb.com/~irltip2/chat/index.htm > >

Dear List Members, I have recently joined this list in the hope that I may be able to find out about my Great Great Grandmother's family. Her name was Catherine CARR. She was born in Tipperary about 1846. I have no further information about where or when she was born. Her parents were James CARR and Mary DOWNIE. This information comes from Catherine CARR's marriage certificate. She married Kenneth KENNEDY a widower who was born in Scotland in 1881 in Dunedin, New Zealand. Although the KENNEDY's were Presbyterian, Catherine was buried in a Catholic cemetery and the minister who officiated at the service was a Roman Catholic. I have searched the IGI and have not been able to find a record of Catherine's birth or Baptism. Nor have I been able to find a record of her parents marriage or the birth of any possible siblings. Any help would be appreciated. Regards, Christine

Christine: This is no guarantee of success, but one thing I try to do with a birth in Tipperary that occurs between 1838 and 1850 is to try and find the parent in the Primary Valuation index. This is basically a tax document, so you will only find the head of household, but when you are working with no precise location, sometimes it will help you narrow your search parameters. In Tipperary, in 1850, there were just 2 entries for a James Carr. One was in the civil parish of Nenagh, in the townland of Fawnlough. The other was in the civil parish of Loughmoe West, in the townland of Kilahara. Nenagh is part of the Killaloe Diocese, and has Catholic parish records that date back to 1792, though it does have some significant gaps in them. Loughmoe West is part of the Cashel and Emly diocese and has records that date back to 1798 and are virtually intact. It is unusual to find Catholic records for Ireland on the LDS site, so don't necessarily rely on that site as the end all be all for Catholic research. Civil registration of births in Ireland did not begin until 1864, so you will not find a birth record for Catherine and will have to rely only on baptismal records. Downie is not a spelling you will find in Tipperary, so you must also consider the Downey version of the name. This is a really unusual surname in Tipperary, so I'd probably also advise you to consider that it may not be correct. Under those circumstances, I have a tendency to check where in Tipperary I would find a James Carr in conjunction with the Downey surname. In 1850, that would have me sighting on the James Carr in Loughmoe, because in Thurles civil parish, less than 2 miles from Kilahara, I find a Downey entry. Basically, if it were me, I'd start looking for your girl in Loughmoe. As I said, it's no guarantee of success, but at least now you have a smaller area to start a search in! Unfortunately, as part of the Cashel Diocese, you may find you have to go through the Tipperary Heritage Unit. However, on the chance that you can get one of the priests in the parish to check the records for you, try writing Nativity of Our Lady, Loughmore, Templemore, Co. Tipperary. Good luck. Cindy Wood

Hi Christine, I collect Carr marriages in Tipp and don't have yours as Downie, but I have something close that you might tuck away. In 1840 James Carr married Mary Donnell in Galbally; they may have lived in Tipp after that. Could be, however, that it was a C of I marriage and I don't have all of those. Janet On 11/13/05, Christine Tregonning <CJTregonning@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > > Dear List Members, > > I have recently joined this list in the hope that I may be able to find > out > about my Great Great Grandmother's family. Her name was Catherine CARR. > She was born in Tipperary about 1846. I have no further information about > where or when she was born. Her parents were James CARR and Mary DOWNIE. > > This information comes from Catherine CARR's marriage certificate. She > married Kenneth KENNEDY a widower who was born in Scotland in 1881 in > Dunedin, New Zealand. Although the KENNEDY's were Presbyterian, Catherine > was buried in a Catholic cemetery and the minister who officiated at the > service was a Roman Catholic. > > I have searched the IGI and have not been able to find a record of > Catherine's birth or Baptism. Nor have I been able to find a record of her > parents marriage or the birth of any possible siblings. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Regards, > > Christine > > > ==== IRL-TIPPERARY Mailing List ==== > >>Watch those SUBJECT headings! When the topic changes - change the > subject<< > >