Susan I believe I told you that my grandfather Charles H. born in US had the middle name [spelled different]Havner, his father, Richard H. Stark born in Ireland had middle name Havener [note spelling] and Richard's sister married a Havner I believe in the Us. So the name is of importance to this Stark family, as you can see. These Stark's came to Maryland and Allegeny Co. in the Grantville, area and some move into PA just across the border. One of the Stark girls married a Custer a cousin of George Custer. Some Broadwater, I will have to look at the names and send them in the event that some others have these lines. there must have been a neet little group of IP that settled there. As I told you before I believe that gr grandfather married a Seibert but their family had been in US from the begining because her grandfather fought in Rev. war I can only wonder if they had past through Ireland first as I did see Seibert on the list and even more did they know of each others past. So many questions and I doubt that is one no one would know. Thanks again and Terry thank you for the reports I am printing them and saving them and I like the added impressions that you have. It helps me to figure out some of the jargone as I am totally lost on some of the Kings language. I read in a report that it was very greatly considered that German was to be the offical language in the US in the begining years as that was the primary immagrant at that time. I wonder myself to if it were because of the revolt against England to seperate themselves from the once mother country. The Amish it seem in Pennsylvanis call outsider Enlish It doesn't seem to matter if your are English, Greek, Italian or what ever, if you aren't Amish you must be one of those English!! Jean Stark Corwin Greene Co Pennsylvania >From: SLWillig <[email protected]> >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [IP] Great IP Group >Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:14:29 -0700 > >Hi, Jean - > >><<Just want you to know that each day I can hardly wait to see what the >>group has on the list. It is so incrediable to see such help for fellow >>extended family member of so many years past pulling together. >> > >What a nice thing to say! It's a great group indeed. ><< I'm still looking for Heavener and Mee family members. Did the Mee >family spell their name Mee or Mye? I notice their name included in the >very early list but not in later lists.>> > >Hank Jones' book, *Palatine Families of Ireland* has four references to the >surname of MEE. The alternate spellings Jones cites are MYE and even MACE. > >pp. 90, 81 > >"The first settler in Ireland with this surname [MACE] was Johann Philip >Mace." It goes on a bit and apparently the name MACE is mentioned in the >Tenison Grove papers. > >Then Jones says, > >"Perhaps this man (above-mentioned) was the founder of the MEE family of >Co. Limerick, which is said to be of Palatine origin. Some of the family >resided on the Oliver Estate at Kilfinane, and Mary MEE, [wife of] Thomas, >was bur. there in 1875, aged 60 yrs." > >There is mention of Thomas MEE as a landowner at Ballycampion and of Joseph >MEE of Kilfinane, who married Margaret BATEMAN. > >The next reference is to the MYE bunch... the "emigrant ancestor" of which >was David MEY. He, too, is mentioned in the Grove papers as the head of a >Palatine family in Ireland on 13 Jul 1715. > >Hope this helps a bit, Jean. > >Susan > > > >==== IRL-PALATINE Mailing List ==== >My folks didn't come over on the Mayflower, but >they were there to meet the boat. Will Rogers > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Hello chums I did warn you. These things take up a lot of space. But they help point the way. Very shortly, I'll tell you why I started these documents from 1713 rather than 1709 and try to explain my own (slightly more serious - but not too grubbily academic) interpretation of the whole purpose and benefit of the Tenison Groves archive. [#D: My view regarding the last despatch is that Fr. Leicester was a bit harsh on Daniel, the Agent - I personally know some Dutchmen and they're actually jolly nice. Indeed, my son lives in Amsterdam, so they can't all be bad. But I just have to shew you this gem, which I forgot to insert in the right place. (Dummy). It probably dates from early 1713. That Mr D Hintz, being a veritable bucket of slime, did approach said Archbishop (see my last Transcript #C), in order that his Grace might tip him the wink, in the same way as Leicester hinted at connivance with Him most highly-placed in the Diocese. This letter is truly a bowel-shifting experience in the XVIII-century art of the unctuous. It should carry you joyfully through breakfast, provided you've stopped convulsing at the pure anguish of the 'said' and 'such' prevarications in Transcript #B]. ***START HERE*** MS Volume V3-1-27 page 187 in Marsh's Library Dublin To His Grace the Lord Archbishop of Dublin The Humble Petition of Daniel Hintze Sheweth That your Petitioner is informed that a Meeting of the Commissioners for the Palatines is soon designed to be summoned, and least his present circumstances should prevent him from attending upon your Grace and the honourable Board as it is his duty He hereby prays your Grace will excuse his non-attendance But in case there should be an absolute necessity your Petitioner will attend, And as this is the first request of this nature, he hopes it will be the last, his Affairs being in a fair way of being speedily accomodated. Your Petitioner further craves leave to represent to your Grace that he has upon all occasions discharged his Duty faithfully, and with a good conscience, of which he humbly hopes your Grace is fully satisfied and presumes has induced your Grace to shew your favour and friendship to him, from time to time even as a father. That your Petitioner is at present a man overwhelmed with afflictions, from which he hopes it will please God soon to relieve him, therefore most humbly begs your Grace will please to continue your favour to him which shall always be his study to endeavour to deserve. May it please Almighty God to reward your Grace for all your good works is the fervent prayer of your Grace's most dutifull servant and his numerous family. DANL HINTZE ***END HERE*** [Agh. You can almost hear his palms squeaking.] Note: From time to time the spelling of some of the trickier words looks OK - that's because the mindless MS WORD program automatically corrects the original blunders when I'm not looking. All the mistakes you pick up here are as writ. I just have to creep back on my copy when WORD least expects it and correct its misguided corrections, if you follow me. Half the fun is in the mistakes, apart from the verbal flourishes that make a poem such as this so delightful. Danl could simply have said "I'm not in today, m'lud. I'm dying". Later I will post the Petition of his widow (dated 1733). The lady is clearly well-schooled in the same craft of up-sucking servility. A couple more packets to come later, to round off this little aside. Then we'll get down to some of the more germane material about the whole Palatine adventure from the wonderful Tenison Groves - archivist extraordinary. I have a mind to go back and start again with the first document I have, dated 24 August 1709. We'll see. Bye bye Terry (Ye gods, the instant I typed my name there, a little panel popped up on the screen and suggested my full name, address and 'phone number. . . .Pah.)

Hi Hazel... It is nice to see another name on the list, I to do more reading than adding, but have always been most comfortable when I do ask a question.. You have just joined one of the best. Have fun reading. I do and learn so much Just a old granny, having fun Mary Mcd

Our list of "good books" already includes "People Make Places - The Story of the Irish Palatines" by Patrick J O'Connor ISBN 0 9512184 1 7 I also have a copy of "All Ireland is in and about Rathkeale", ISBN 0 9512184 7 6, published by Oireacht na Mumhan Books 1966. Rathkeale has a rich and varied history. Palatines are a part of it. But I believe that to understand the part the Palatines have played - and still play - in Ireland I need to understand the history, geography and culture of "All Ireland". So I have enjoyed this book. The author makes many references to the "Southwell-Brown" Papers. These are another important collection of old documents, dating between 1706 and 1807, that were acquired by the Irish Palatine Association of Rathkeale in 1991 - thanks to the Bishop family of Kirkton, Ontario. I don't think they've been published yet, they may still be under analysis. They relate particularly to the Anglo-Irish landlords of our first forebears in Ireland. Perhaps they may not give us any great answers on the genealogical front, but explain a lot about the way of life at the time. Do you know more about them, Ken? TO TERRY PYPER - thank's so much for your transcripts of those Tennyson Groves papers! I want to tell you that in his book "All Ireland is in and about Rathkeale", Mr O'Connor refers to records amongst the "Southwell-Brown" papers concerning a robbery perpetrated against one George Piper, the miller of Courtmatrix, in September 1767. Perhaps if, as you say, Terry, you plan to visit Rathkeale this year, you may wish to liaise with the Irish Palatine Association to see if you can find out more about what is recorded. I know I'm not supposed to advertise (I hope this doesn't count as doing so), but do I hope all who are interested in Palatine History will join this society. It's run by volunteers who work very hard indeed. They're just ordinary people like you and I, working all day, and trying hard in their spare time to keep a museum/resource centre/association going in their spare time. They don't undertake to do genealogical research (you can't blame them - can you imagine trying to do that for EVERY family!) but will try to put you in touch with other researchers if you ask (with SAE if poss). They preserve all artifacts and history they can, and keep a paper file on every Palatine name of information, photographs, family trees that are sent to them. You get a little annual journal with your membership that tell's you all sorts of fascinating facts about Palatine researchers world-wide INCLUDING SOME VERY INTERESTING STORIES FROM PEOPLE WHO AREN'T ON THE INTERNET !!!! (It's not compulsory - yet!) The application form is on www.erin.ie/ipa At least take a look at the above site to see the costume display in the centre - that's what your umpteen-great grandparents would have worn in the early 1700s. And whether you join them or not - do please send them any info you have on your Palatine family history - even if you think it's very little. Love from Di England ( !! where the weather's a bit dull at the moment - maybe why we're getting a bit talkative !!) (Floundering around in Shier/Barkman/Le Gear)

As a farly new member of the list, one who 'lurks' instead of contributing, may I thank you all so much for what you give to the list. Maybe in time I'll have something to offer as well... Hazel

----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 6:31 PM Subject: [IP] GROVES TRANSCRIPTS A* Hi, here we go. Just a taster... [A: This doc., dated 10 June 1713, predates the Petition (posted by Susan on 7 Dec. 2000 - which merits a read) and is the deposition before the Court of FRANCIS LEICESTER, gent of the City of Dublin, whose part-time job as Accountant to the COMMISSIONERS FOR THE POOR PALATINES is seriously on the line and who will not give up the Books until he is paid. It is pure 'stream of consciousness' and only the upper case letters tell you when he draws breath…] ***START HERE*** Kings Bench Affidavits 1711-22 2F-35-6 In the Queens Bench The Commissioners &c for the Palatines V Francis Leicester FRANCIS LEICESTER of the city of Dublin maketh oath That he acted as Secretary and Accountant to the said Commissioners for taking care of the Palatines and that a little after Michaelmass last Mr John Smale Paymaster to the Palatines being under some trouble This Deponent by the Approbation & Directions of the said Commissioners acted and officiated in the said employment about 7 months. And this Deponent insisting to be paid for the time he acted as Paymaster was not only opposed by Isaac Manley esq one of the said Commissioners who has a debt due to him from the said John Smale and therefore would have the salary paid him to discharge the said debt but has also as this Deponent has very good reason to believe been the means and contriver of putting this said Deponent out of the said employments without any other cause that this Deponent knows but this Deponent opposing the said Manley's receiving the said Smales's salary before this Deponent was paid. This Deponent further Deposeth That there is a balance of near £50 due to him and is willing on being paid the same and stating and settling his accounts to deliver what books and papers are in his custody. But the said Books & Papers being all the vouchers this Deponent has to discharge him of near £2000 that he has received and paid during the time he acted in the employments aforesaid, apprehends it may be his utter ruin if he should deliver up the same before he has stated and settled his said accounts. jur' cor' me 10 die junii 1713 Rich Cox ***ENDS HERE*** [I think the Latin at the end means "I swear on my heart" … or is it body, or life? Mr SMALE - the name seems straight out of Nicholas Nickleby - is the light-fingered Paymaster to the Commissioners. We shall hear more of him…]. More anon. Bye bye Terry ==== IRL-PALATINE Mailing List ==== Try to do little things in an extraordinary way.

Hello, again This is the last for today (Thursday British Summer Time). [C: This should have come first. The story so far: Dramatis Personae: The said F. Leicester is nudging up to Lord Southwell, owner-in-fee of the estates around Castlematrix, Courtmatrix, Killiheen and Ballingarrane. (He also throws in a bit of intimacy with the Archbishop, who whispers behind his hand can you believe?). The good Lord S. himself is feeling slightly vexed because he is doling out goodies to the Palatines and not getting much support from the Commissioners' Paymaster, Accountant and Commissary. I get the feeling our Francis knows the fat is in the fire - his early retirement is imminent. Meanwhile the Palatines soldier on, oblivious to all the theatricals.] ***START HERE*** Letters &c before 1760 4Q-178-3 in Record Office Dublin Francis Leiscester to Edward Southwell (1 of 2) Dublin 26 May 1713 Right Honourable Sir Since my former of the 14th ult. I crave leave to acquaint you, That Mr Manley Postmaster General, and one of the Commissioners of the Palatines, Because he could not save himself of £50 through my labour, has made a shift at last by the condescention of Sir Thomas Southwell, who always promised me the contrary, to divest me of the Post of Secretary and Accountant to the Palatines, which Mr Watkins had resigned to me, and have ordered me to deliver up the Books & Employments, The occasion Thus About 7 months since Mr Smales the former Paymaster running in debt £100 and upwards to Her Majesty & to others, was arrested for £50 debt, and is still in cognito, so that he cannot attend the duty of his post, Mr Manley was bound for that private debt, The Commissioners ordered me to act as Paymaster also which I have done for 7 months past, The salary due for the said office, Mr Manley would have to discharge the aforesaid £50, On a full board, which we have but very seldom, It is denied him, And They say, He that hath done the work, which is myself, ought to have the wages. Several of the Commissioners bid me to take the salary, My Lord Archbishop also under his hand says I ought to be considered for the trouble of that post, which has been excessive, by reason of the settling the imperfect accounts of the former Paymaster with all the Gentlemen in the country and the Palatines in town, &c And because I did and do insist upon it, and Mr Manley thereby not saving himself of the £50 Mr Smales owed him, has taken such an implacable hatred and malice against me as is above mentioned, Ordering me to deliver up the Books and Employments without passing my accounts, there being 40 odd pounds due to me on the Balance. Now If they can give a Foreigner £122 in 6 months time for acting only as a Messenger & Interpreter, of which there is no occasion neither, I know not why such a deference should be paid to a Dutchman more than an Englishman acting in more difficult and higher posts, which I have done to all their satisfactions; How it will be yet I cannot tell, the Commissioners being divided about it. Now, Sir, If, When the Return of the Representation about the Palatines is sent back, you could get me an order to be continued in that post of Secretary & Accountant to the Commissioners, I should be willing to act for such a salary as shall be thought fit for the future, The 40s p.ann. fund being not half the trouble of the fund of £24000, which is now out, And I would take care That Her Majestie's interest should not suffer in some matters which are yet depending, And it should be owned as a particular favour by Right Honourable Sir, Your most humble & most obedient servant FRAN: LEICESTER To the Rt Hon Edward Southwell esq. at Whitehall London ***END HERE*** [More another day, if you're still with me. I have yet to work out how to present the pages with accounts on. Sometimes very revealing.] Bye bye Terry

Hello There will be 3 packets altogether today. This is the second. On reading the first return, I see that my little chain of dots (periods) at the end of sentences, etc - designed as a pause for reflection - comes out as 'circumflex a/box/vertical dashes'. Pity, it's a favourite piece of punctuation but this thing could confuse people. Still, that's the language of the Web: no time for such niceties. Here it comes, guys. . . [B: This doc., dated 18 June 1713, is the deposition of Thomas Watkins, gent of the City of Dublin, who delegated his job as Accountant with the PALATINE COMMISSIONERS (during the reign of Queen Anne, who was succeeded by George in 1714) to the Deponent F. Leicester whilst attending to business elsewhere …. Got it?] ***START HERE*** Kings Bench Affidavits 1711-22 2F-35-6 The Commissioners &c for the PALATINES V Francis Leicester In the Queens Bench Whereas Thomas Watkins of the city of Dublin gent being entertained and employed as clerk and accountant to the Commissioners for taking care of and settling the poor distressed Palatines in this Kingdom and the said Watkins having in May 1712 some urgent business to transact in England whereby he was obliged to be absent from the business he managed for the said Commissioners the said Watkins employed one Mr Francis Leicester as his Deputy or clerk to manage his the said Watkins business for the said Commissioners in the absence of him the said Watkins And the said Watkins did then deliver to the said Leicester all the Patents Minut Books Ledgers Books of Account Papers and other writings which he the said Watkins had in his keeping which belonged to the said Commissioners And the said Watkins business continuing as yet in England The said Commissioners have often directed the said Leicester to deliver up to them all such books papers and writings of theirs as he had left in his custody by the said Watkins. Now DANIEL HINTZ of the city of Dublin gent came this day before me and made oath that he this Deponent was at several times present at the Board where the said Commissioners frequently met to transact the business of the poor Palatines in this Kingdom, And this Deponent has heard the said Commissioners at their said Board demand their Books Papers & Writings from the said Leicester and heard the said Leicester promise to the said Commissioners that he would deliver them such Books Papers &Writings as he had of theirs and did at several times promise always to bring the said Books to the said Commissioners this That the said Commissioners did attend at their Board on the days and times the said Leicester appointed to bring the said Books in order to receive the said Books from the said Leicester but the said Leicester did not think fit to attend with the said Books &c according to his frequent promises This Deponent further saith that he this Deponent was directed by the said Commissioners to speak to the said Leicester about the said Books and to acquaint him of the said Commissioners attending to receive the said Books on the days he the said Leicester had appointed, which this Deponent accordingly did and the said Leicester then promised he would deliver up the said Books & Papers in two days to the said Commissioners. This Deponent further Deposeth that notwithstanding the said Leicester's many promises of deliveryng up the said Books to the said Commissioners He has not yet delivered up the said Books to the said Commissioners as this Deponent is informed and which he believes to be true And this Deponent saith that he has seen most of the said Books & Papers & Writings which belong to the said Commissioners in the custody of the said Leicester since the time the said Watkins left this kingdom And believes they are all now in the custody power and keeping of the said Leicester. And further Deposeth that by the said Leicester's detaining the said Books & Papers the said Commissioners are disabled from proceeding on their Commission for the benefit and advantage of the said poor distressed Palatines. And further saith not. jur' cor' me 18 die junii 1713 Richd Cox ***END HERE*** [Dramatis Personae: Daniel HINTZ, sometimes HINTS or HINCH, is the Agent or Commissary and Interpreter ('Mr Fixit') to the Commissioners. He is not liked by many other officials - including the said Leicester, who thinks such a "Foreigner" is unworthy of payment before him, the said L. See my next despatch [#C], which I should have sent before #A and #B… Sorry. Getting confused myself already. Dumber and dumber. Still, it's all good fun and the essential thing is that these various missives help us track the movements of our very important Palatines and - to some degree - get a measure of the misery they are being subjected to.] Last one coming shortly. Terry

Hi fellow descendents, I too am generally a "lurker" but find this the most fascinating of all the lists I belong to. I feel that it is unique as all of us living in many parts of the world are connected by not a name, but a region and a period of history as all of us descend from people who were brave enough to venture out into the unknown, very early on, some settling only "briefly" then moving on to other new places. I am descended from a Sparling who emigrated again in the early 1800s', this time to Ontario, Canada, starting a new life near Shiers and Switzers in Blanshard Township, Perth County. I am not actively researching that line at present, but find this list so interesting and full of information that I feel I am beginning to know all the various families. I'd love to know where some of the others moved on to and settled. Margot Jorgensen, Courtenay B. C. Canada

Hi, Jean - ><<Just want you to know that each day I can hardly wait to see what the >group has on the list. It is so incrediable to see such help for fellow >extended family member of so many years past pulling together. >> What a nice thing to say! It's a great group indeed. << I'm still looking for Heavener and Mee family members. Did the Mee family spell their name Mee or Mye? I notice their name included in the very early list but not in later lists.>> Hank Jones' book, *Palatine Families of Ireland* has four references to the surname of MEE. The alternate spellings Jones cites are MYE and even MACE. pp. 90, 81 "The first settler in Ireland with this surname [MACE] was Johann Philip Mace." It goes on a bit and apparently the name MACE is mentioned in the Tenison Grove papers. Then Jones says, "Perhaps this man (above-mentioned) was the founder of the MEE family of Co. Limerick, which is said to be of Palatine origin. Some of the family resided on the Oliver Estate at Kilfinane, and Mary MEE, [wife of] Thomas, was bur. there in 1875, aged 60 yrs." There is mention of Thomas MEE as a landowner at Ballycampion and of Joseph MEE of Kilfinane, who married Margaret BATEMAN. The next reference is to the MYE bunch... the "emigrant ancestor" of which was David MEY. He, too, is mentioned in the Grove papers as the head of a Palatine family in Ireland on 13 Jul 1715. Hope this helps a bit, Jean. Susan

Hi, here we go. Just a taster... [A: This doc., dated 10 June 1713, predates the Petition (posted by Susan on 7 Dec. 2000 - which merits a read) and is the deposition before the Court of FRANCIS LEICESTER, gent of the City of Dublin, whose part-time job as Accountant to the COMMISSIONERS FOR THE POOR PALATINES is seriously on the line and who will not give up the Books until he is paid. It is pure 'stream of consciousness' and only the upper case letters tell you when he draws breath…] ***START HERE*** Kings Bench Affidavits 1711-22 2F-35-6 In the Queens Bench The Commissioners &c for the Palatines V Francis Leicester FRANCIS LEICESTER of the city of Dublin maketh oath That he acted as Secretary and Accountant to the said Commissioners for taking care of the Palatines and that a little after Michaelmass last Mr John Smale Paymaster to the Palatines being under some trouble This Deponent by the Approbation & Directions of the said Commissioners acted and officiated in the said employment about 7 months. And this Deponent insisting to be paid for the time he acted as Paymaster was not only opposed by Isaac Manley esq one of the said Commissioners who has a debt due to him from the said John Smale and therefore would have the salary paid him to discharge the said debt but has also as this Deponent has very good reason to believe been the means and contriver of putting this said Deponent out of the said employments without any other cause that this Deponent knows but this Deponent opposing the said Manley's receiving the said Smales's salary before this Deponent was paid. This Deponent further Deposeth That there is a balance of near £50 due to him and is willing on being paid the same and stating and settling his accounts to deliver what books and papers are in his custody. But the said Books & Papers being all the vouchers this Deponent has to discharge him of near £2000 that he has received and paid during the time he acted in the employments aforesaid, apprehends it may be his utter ruin if he should deliver up the same before he has stated and settled his said accounts. jur' cor' me 10 die junii 1713 Rich Cox ***ENDS HERE*** [I think the Latin at the end means "I swear on my heart" … or is it body, or life? Mr SMALE - the name seems straight out of Nicholas Nickleby - is the light-fingered Paymaster to the Commissioners. We shall hear more of him…]. More anon. Bye bye Terry

Hello, Hazel! ><<As a farly new member of the list, one who 'lurks' instead of contributing, >may I thank you all so much for what you give to the list. >Maybe in time I'll have something to offer as well... >Hazel>> You are a contributor just by virtue of the fact that you are a willing part of the IP list! Not all of us have data or even much experience researching our IP ancestors. Nonetheless, we can all join in by posting to the list now and again - to remind everyone for whom we're looking, or to comment on another post, or say hello, or thanks, or to encourage another, etc. While the focus of the list is genealogy, there is indeed some room for a tangent now and again. In fact, discussion about history, researching techniques, resources, taking gravestone rubbings, etc... well, all those things are related! We'd like to hear from everyone... Please feel free to introduce or RE-introduce yourselves and let us get to know you... A mailing list is a community, the heart of which is communication. I manage and subscribe to a LOT of lists <g>, and from that experience you can rest assured that this is an especially nice list... a group of fine folks who are caring, helpful, funny and a pure delight. Thanks for opening the door on the subject, Hazel! We're delighted to have you as a part of the IP list! Susan Susan Laursen Willig [email protected] List Tender for: NY-WarWashSar; Sullivan Co., NH; Addison Co., VT; IRL-Palatine

*** START HERE *** Hello List No … too bland. Hi, good friends - here's a preliminary notice. Having received the go-ahead from Admin., over the next few weeks I propose to post here as much of the Tenison Groves material as I have to hand and have typed. This material is derived entirely from the manuscripts I received from the amazing Liz Haren (N.J.), who so generously copied it all from microfilm, duplicated it and sent it for the cost of postage to all who were interested. I'm probably preaching to the converted in most cases, but there are surely some who have no idea what these texts mean, so I need to explain. (Let's face it, six weeks ago, Tenison Groves meant no more to me than Jack Dempsey - he could have been a plantation of orange trees, or as Walter McE suggested, a relative of the English poet). Bear with me. Tenison Groves was the Belfast archivist who transcribed all (or a least most) of the original XVIII/XIX-century documents relating to the settlement of the German Palatine immigrants in Ireland (from 1709 onward), as compiled by various bodies and individuals for the benefit of the instigators, Queen Anne and her government and - later (1714) - her successor George I. If the documents said "Palatines" anywhere, good old Tenison jumped on them and reproduced them for us all to savour. Anyway, all of those people at the top were intent on subduing the "Papist/Popish" influence in Ireland and, by way of a bonus, perhaps developing a severely backward economy - at least that's how I read it. Along the way, the Rhinesiders are shuffled around from pillar to post, even lodging in the Barracks in Dublin and later in gaols (jails) for want of space, until those "poor, distressed Palatines" are eventually dispersed to the countryside, in about 1712. As the ranks thin out (many Palatines abscond, returning to England and sometimes Germany, or emigrating further to the Americas, often under their own steam) … the wrangling goes on behind the scenes. A monarch dies, the parties in government change hands, officials are fired and replaced with baffled newcomers and sometimes unscrupulous gangsters, whilst the industrious Palatines beaver away at the land, build homes and develop their individual trades and crafts, unaware of the shenanigans. [By the way, I talk a lot - sometimes too much, I know. But it's the fever of discovery that grips me. I hope you'll want to share it. ] The documents take up a lot of space, so: IF YOU'RE NOT KEEN, DON'T READ BEYOND THE "SUBJECT" BOX AT THE TOP OF YOUR MAIL PAGE. All my contributions will be clearly flagged with the "Subject" line: GROVES TRANSCRIPTS # A (through Z, then AA …). The beginning and end of the relevant material [without my comments in square brackets} will be marked: ***START HERE*** and ***END HERE*** You can't go wrong. And remember, you have the option of skipping it at all times. But, if you ARE interested, you can print the documents on-line, or save them to a special folder set aside in your ISP program (AOL, etc), remembering to name them PG1, PG2 or something simple and memorable (but keep a handwritten list beside you, in case you overwrite previous saves). About the documents themselves …. Well, to my mind there isn't a single redundant page. There are Petitions, Depositions, Memorials, Representations, Muster lists, periodic Accounts and some of the creepiest letters imaginable, addressed to Archbishops, Judges and similar worthies. The language is ornate, tortuously elegant in its quasi-legal way ('Sheweth' 'Saith', 'Doth' and 'deliveryng' are reproduced as found). There are spelling mistakes and typos galore - I have included them all, as well as some of my own I feel sure. Do let me know (through the List). Incidentally, the symbol for pounds sterling may not come out properly, so you can insert it easily by hitting Num Lock (or Figures Shift) above your numbers pad on the right, then holding down the Alt key and typing the ASCII code 156 (ON THE NUMBERS pad, not along the top of your keyboard). There is often scant regard for punctuation and this helps convey the breathless urgency of the particular message. I love it all for its mad quaintness and immediacy. We are there behind the scenes with the stage crew and it's the living English as she is truely spakt. We learn that "the said Deponent further Deponeth…" and That The Worshipful/Honourable/Excellencies &c addressed do actually seem to buckle under the praise and estimable grime of the authors of our Grovesian Treasurie…. More preliminary details. Some of the more important documents (lists of Palatine names and key Letters from/to the Sovereign, Her Lord Lieutenant in Ireland and so forth) have already been posted, under the good offices of Barb Milburn (Ont.) and Susan Willig (Washington, USA - I think). If you missed them and want them, go to http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/irl-palatine/ and look for the following: >From Barb Milburn 30 June 2000: Palatine Families in Ireland, July 1715 (lists of names #1 and #2). 01 July 2000: TG papers - Muster 1720 (#1, #2 and #3) 02/03 July 2000: Religious census 1766 (First, then #2 and #3) 03/04 July 2000: Freeholders (#1, Ballyrigin, Ballyngarane, Killiheen) >From Susan Willig 30 July 2000: Queen Anne's Letter, 17 Oct. 1709 (TG papers) 06 August 2000: Letter to Earl of Wharton, July 1710 14 August 2000: Letter to the Queen's Representative, 18 Dec. 1710 09 Oct. 2000: More TG Letters, 28 July 1711 - Treasury Report 26 Nov. 2000: Report of Commission … 24 June 1714 - Certificate 07 Dec. 2000: More TG papers - Petition after July 1713 of Leicester plus an interesting analysis from Chris LeGear (UK, somewhere?) on the ethics of IP colonization (15 Aug. 2000). There is very much more of great interest, of course, but here I'm concerned with the TG stuff. Right, I've said enough - more than enough, I fancy. My first despatch will hit your mailboxes soon. You can DELETE immediately or, as one member did about a year ago, simply UNSUBSCRIBE and pick things up as you choose from time to time. Bye bye, until later on. Terry Pyper (Lincolnshire UK)

To everyone, Just want you to know that each day I can hardly wait to see what the group has on the list. It is so incrediable to see such help for fellow extended family member of so many years past pulling together. I thank you all for your unselfish help and I love to hear the successful finds that you have. Jean Stark Corwin Pennsylvania. P.S. My Stark family went to Maryland with so many of your families I have been reading in past IP. I'm still looking for Heavener and Mee family members. Did the Mee family spell their name Mee or Mye? I notice their name included in the very early list but not in later lists. Thanks again. >From: SLWillig <[email protected]> >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: [email protected] >Subject: [IP] Great IP Group >Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:19:37 -0700 > >Dear Terry & Everyone... > ><<PS (for Susan): Can I post some more Tenison Groves material on the list >(if >anyone's interested)? I'll check what's been sent already and assemble some >of the extra stuff I've typed out, if that's OK>> > >You bet.. Have at it! Sharing is most welcome. This is a particularly >wonderful mailing list group in that regard... We're very fortunate. Thanks >to each and every one for being a part of this IP group. > >Susan > > >==== IRL-PALATINE Mailing List ==== >Great minds talk about ideas. Average minds talk about >events. Small minds talk about people. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Monday, July 16, 2001 1:16 PM Subject: [IP] Rathkeale No 2 School >Hello good friends > >hi Terry Julius Piper married Alicia Downes 2 Jul 1873. He was a son of James but I don'f know who James' father was. Mary >There was another family of Piper/Pyper children later at the same school and >I have fairly good information on them too. He was gunsmith/whitesmith Julius >Pyper, husband of Alicia Downes and father of eight. I wonder how he was >related to my GGF Richard. > >I could go on, but I think I've burned out your screens by now. Just know >that I am very happy to have happened across your company. > >Many thanks to Ken McDonald and his wife who transcribed this valuable >material. I cannot wait to see the data from the No 3 school, promised for >the near future. If any help is needed with the hard graft of typing the >data, I am only too glad to help. > >Terry Pyper >(Lincolnshire, UK) >__________ > >Preferred address: <A HREF="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected] ></A> > > >==== IRL-PALATINE Mailing List ==== >My folks didn't come over on the Mayflower, but >they were there to meet the boat. Will Rogers > >

Dear Terry & Everyone... <<PS (for Susan): Can I post some more Tenison Groves material on the list (if anyone's interested)? I'll check what's been sent already and assemble some of the extra stuff I've typed out, if that's OK>> You bet.. Have at it! Sharing is most welcome. This is a particularly wonderful mailing list group in that regard... We're very fortunate. Thanks to each and every one for being a part of this IP group. Susan

Hi Mary Thank you - the fun goes on. Hey, I think you know something you're not telling me about... What's your source, please? (You've already helped me with Kilscannel records on John & Mary Ann Piper - both in the school register, but where DID you get that information?) HOW do you know Julius was the son of James? The reason I enquire, Mary, is because I think the James in question is (was) the son of Richard Piper (of Jacob/James 1765) - which latter, I have long suspected, was also the daddy of my own long-sought GGF, another Richard. The data I have says James was baptised 14 Feb 1836 - registered at St. John's Church, Limerick. My Richard was born abt. 1834 (probably also baptised in Limerick). Sources, dear Mary, SOURCES. You show me yours... Whilst I'm here, dear Listers, may I secondly thank Ken McDonald for responding so swiftly to my breathless despatch the other day. He furnished my father's school details as well. A superb bonus. And if Charley's elder sister Gladys and younger brothers Harry (William Henry) and Victor were there too, I would be beside myself. So silly, I know. (I think, however, they were living in Dublin, while my father stayed with Grandmother Catherine in Killeheen.) But that's bye the bye. And getting very jumbled ... like the charming enquirer the other day who had me in stitches about "getting dumber as I work through the shipping lists". I imagine we've all been there at some point. I was glad to see a quick response from someone who knew what to do (the sparkling Sparling connection). Very many thanks, too, are due to Marilyn from Canada, who quickly offered to look up the 1901 census (and 'phone books) for Winnipeg - mailing the extensive data very shortly afterwards. She writes, so matter-of-factly, "... Yes, I do have a subscription with xxx.com and what better way to put it to use than to help somebody out if I can." Such generosity of spirit. I'm so glad I joined. Terry (Lincolnshire UK) PS (for Susan): Can I post some more Tenison Groves material on the list (if anyone's interested)? I'll check what's been sent already and assemble some of the extra stuff I've typed out, if that's OK __________ Preferred email address: <A HREF="mailto:[email protected]"> [email protected]</A>

Dear Susan, I have never searched for another spelling of the Kepper name for a number of reasons. Following back the generations of my Dutch ancestors into Germany the name was always consequently written as Kepper. The oldest record on this familyname even dates back to 1418. The German internet telephone register lists about 260 Keppers. About 2/3 of them live in northern Hessen (around the city of Kassel) and in neighbouring areas of Northrhine-Westfalia and Lower Saxony. The name can be easily spelled and pronounced in both German and English. So German Kepper immigrants who came to America, felt no need to change their suname. I have one example I recently found out about. Johann Christoph Kepper, an older brother of my straight ancestor Johann George, leaves about 1755 his native village of Obermeiser near Kassel and later on joins the army of the prince of Brunswick. In 1776 his regiment is send to Quebec to fight the American rebels. In 1784 he leaves the army and settles in Nova Scotia and buys 213 acres of land. During my research I often came upon surnames wich are more or less similar like: Kipper, Kupper, Kapper and Kopper (sometimes with an "umlaut" and/or an "s" at the end) but also names like Keiper, Knepper, Klepper and Keppel. Sofar I have not found any relationship with the Hessian Keppers. Most records I have on American Keppers concern immigrants to the US in the period 1840 till 1860. It was not untill I found records with the Kepper surname in Pennsylvania from the 18th and the beginning of the 19th century, and especially one in wich the country of birth is stated as Ireland, that I considered a Palatine connection. However there are of course other explanations possible: Keppers who already in the 18th century emigrated from Germany to America, and in Ireland (and maybe in Great Britain as well) there is a indigenous Kepper familyname wich is not related at all to Germany. I keep on searching. Anyway, Susan thanks again for your suggestions and with kind regards, Rene Kepper

Dear Mary They could have entered up the St. Lawrence from a port such as Halifax or Quebec City or they could have come north from the USA. I am told that the only practical source for finding out such things in Canada are newspaper reports of passengers arriving at Halifax, St. Johns or Quebec City. I have never thought it worth the effort to find this out for my ancestors. There is also the ingeneas site with the NAC database and all those volumes of Filby's which include published passenger lists for Canada as well as the US. Lois Sparling Calgary, Alberta Jack & Mary wrote: > > Good morning.. would you be so kind as to enlighten me on the following. If the Miller family came to Canada in 1849, or 1848, from Ireland.. > what route would they have taken to get to Ont? > are there records that I should be looking for. I have searched the ship sites,but am dumber than when I started.. > am most confused as to were I should be looking. Would there be something on a microfilm..Without sounding long winded, just HELP. > Thank you one and all. > Have a great day > Mary > > ==== IRL-PALATINE Mailing List ==== > List Administrator: > Susan Laursen Willig > [email protected]

Hi, Rene... Sorry.. had hoped that might help a bit. Some time ago I unearthed an old county directory from the mid 1800's. In a section of it devoted to one town where three brothers lived, I managed to find all three men listed. They were even neighbors and it was a very small town. In each case, however, the surname was spelled differently! Guess it didn't bother them much, but that's surely the way families get separated and how we tend to "lose" ancestors. <g> Best of luck in your research... Susan At 09:52 PM 7/17/01 +0200, you wrote: >Dear Susan, > >I have never searched for another spelling of the Kepper name for a number >of reasons. > >Following back the generations of my Dutch ancestors into Germany the name >was always consequently written as Kepper. The oldest record on this >familyname even dates back to 1418. The German internet telephone register >lists about 260 Keppers. About 2/3 of them live in northern Hessen (around >the city of Kassel) and in neighbouring areas of Northrhine-Westfalia and >Lower Saxony. > >The name can be easily spelled and pronounced in both German and English. >So German Kepper immigrants who came to America, felt no need to change >their suname. >I have one example I recently found out about. Johann Christoph Kepper, an >older brother of my straight ancestor Johann George, leaves about 1755 his >native village of Obermeiser near Kassel and later on joins the army of >the prince of Brunswick. In 1776 his regiment is send to Quebec to fight >the American rebels. In 1784 he leaves the army and settles in Nova Scotia >and buys 213 acres of land. > >During my research I often came upon surnames wich are more or less >similar like: Kipper, Kupper, Kapper and Kopper (sometimes with an >"umlaut" and/or an "s" at the end) but also names like Keiper, Knepper, >Klepper and Keppel. Sofar I have not found any relationship with the >Hessian Keppers. > >Most records I have on American Keppers concern immigrants to the US in >the period 1840 till 1860. It was not untill I found records with the >Kepper surname in Pennsylvania from the 18th and the beginning of the 19th >century, and especially one in wich the country of birth is stated as >Ireland, that I considered a Palatine connection. > >However there are of course other explanations possible: Keppers who >already in the 18th century emigrated from Germany to America, and in >Ireland (and maybe in Great Britain as well) there is a indigenous Kepper >familyname wich is not related at all to Germany. >I keep on searching. > >Anyway, Susan thanks again for your suggestions and with kind regards, >Rene Kepper > > > > > > > > >==== IRL-PALATINE Mailing List ==== >Oh, man! There is no planet, sun, or star could HOLD you, >If you but knew what you are! -- Ralph Waldo Emerson