Since joining the list, which I think is brilliant by the way, I have never come across our family Palatines. Below is a Timeline of our Palatine ancestors. Can anyone on the list update or confirm what is below? Much appreciated if you can. Marilyn. Detlor Timeline 1687 - Johan Jacob Dedler born in Nassau, northwest Germany, a Lutheran[1] 1709 - because of religious persecution and severe economic times, Johan and several other families from the Lower Palatinate area of Germany take refuge in England[2] 1709 - Sir Thomas Southwell of Rathkeale (near Limerick) in Ireland, offers to take some Palatine refugees to settle on his land, including Johan Dedler[3 1709 - ? - Johan living on Southwell’s land, marries and has children[4]. Children are - Valentine (born 1726), Samuel (born 1730), John, Jacob (born 1747) and Peter.[5] Date of death of Johan unknown. 1756 - Valentine (age 30) is in the British army and is transferred with his regiment to New York[6]. He is discharged from the army in 1762 and lives in New York City.[7] 1756 - 1770 - during this period many Irish-Palatine families migrate to New York City and form a small community of Methodists[8] - including Valentine’s brother Peter[9] .1770 - several families get together and petition the government for land grants. Finally they are allowed a tract of land in Camden Valley, New York (near the border with Vermont).[10]

MacListers, Dick "Eastman's Online Genealogy Newsletter, A Weekly Summary of Events and Topics of Interest to Online Genealogists" provides the following on "Finding Your Irish Ancestors", a very good book, which is part of my library. [About the author: Dick Eastman is the forum manager of the three Genealogy Forums on CompuServe. He also is the author of "YOUR ROOTS: Total Genealogy Planning On Your Computer" published by Ziff-Davis Press. He can be reached at: <[email protected]>] Walt >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian Mitchell wrote the "Pocket Guide to Irish Genealogy" some years ago. This slim book is one of the best books on genealogical research in Ireland ever written. Now Mr. Mitchell has released "Finding Your Irish Ancestors - Unique Aspects of Irish Genealogy," published by Clearfield Company, Inc. I had a chance to read the new book this week. "Finding Your Irish Ancestors" is intended as a companion volume to the earlier "Pocket Guide." The newer book expounds on topics that are not found in the earlier book and expands on others that are. For example, "Finding Your Irish Ancestors" includes two chapters on the importance of surnames and the importance of place names in family history. The place name chapter explains the etymological origins of a number of Irish townlands and the importance in Irish research of the all-important finding aid, the General Alphabetical Index to the Townlands and Towns, Parishes and Baronies of Ireland. The chapters in the new book include: * Tracing Your Irish Ancestors: An Overview * The Importance of Surnames in Family History * The Importance of Place in Family History * Emigration and Irish Passenger Lists * Using Record Sources in the US and Canada to Identify Your Irish Ancestor * How to Make the Best Use of Church Registers * Genealogy Centres in Ireland: How to Make the Best Use of Them * Local History and the Family Historian The 84-page book ends with a complete index. I found "Finding Your Irish Ancestors" to be easy to read while providing an excellent introduction to many topics. It doesn't go too deeply into any topic; it gives general information about each and then refers the reader to other publications and archives for all the details. The book is illustrated with a number of maps. If you have Irish ancestry, "Finding Your Irish Ancestors" will be an excellent addition to your bookshelf. I suspect that you will use it time and again. "Finding Your Irish Ancestors - Unique Aspects of Irish Genealogy" sells for $12.50. Any bookstore can order it for you if you specify ISBN 0806351004. You can also order it directly from the publisher's secure online Web site at: http://www.genealogybookshop.com/genealogybookshop/files/The_World,Irelan d_Irish/9408.html ============================================================== If interested, here is Subscription information for Dick's site/list: There are two different methods to subscribe or to unsubscribe: Method #1: to subscribe, to cancel an existing subscription or to read back issues, go to: http://www.rootsforum.com/newsletter Method #2: To subscribe or to cancel an existing subscription, send an e-mail to [email protected] with a subject of: subscribe or a subject of unsubscribe. The message text is unimportant, only the subject line is used. An automated process will then add or delete your e-mail address from the newsletter mailing list. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

I just thought of another book that I have that I hadn't considered a Palatine book for some reason until I was reading the email from Jean Stark Corwin. I have the book "The Bittinger, Bittner, Biddinger, and Bidinger Families--and Their Kin---of Garrett County, Maryland, by Wayen Bittinger. It is 836 pages of great information containing a great deal of information on some of the Irish Palatines who migrated from Ireland.. My ancestors from the Ruckle/Piper line migrated to Baltimore, MD in the 1790's. There were other Ruckles that migrated to Allegany/Garrett county in 1822. page 548: Ruckle Familly "Henry Ruckle, Sr. married Catharine Stark on April 29, 1813; their marriage was noted in parish records at the town of Kilfinane, in county Limerick, Ireland. Catherine (1788 or 1789--Jan. 23, 1850) was also born in Ireland." The Ruckle family came to the United States in 1822. Henry and Catharine "Ruckel" and their four children---Mary, Agnes, Margaret, and Thomas, boarded the ship "Weser" at the port of Limerick, Ireland. The ship arrived at New York City on May 9, 1822. American immigration records state that Henry was a farmer. Etta (Bittner) Kreger reproted that Agnes was six years old when the family immigrated. Etta said the Agnes lost her coat during the passage and mauch such a fuss that the ship's captain took pity and bought her a new one." etc. There were also other Ruckle families who migrated to Allegany/Garrett county around the same time...Members of my direct line of Ruckles migrated in that area also. There are a lot of IP surnames listed in the book..There is a 66 page index. If anyone has ancestors in this area I would be happy to look in the book and see if there is any information listed on them.... Carole

Hooray, Marilyn! Another connection for Ash Grove in the Camden Valley of what is now Washington County in way upstate NY! You must have joined the list recently, Marilyn, as there has been talk about the Camden Valley from time to time. Yours truly has IP connections there as do a few other listers. ...and the Camden Valley is beautiful, too! This from "Memorial of Ash Grove and the Ash Grove-Cambridge Methodist Episcopal Church", by Rev J.E. Bowen. 1. "Directly west of this [Empey Hollow] and then called West Camden, was the settlement made by Philip EMBURY, Christopher SWITZER, David EMBURY, Peter SPARLING, Abraham BININER, John DULMAGE, Edward CARSCALLEN, VALENTINE DETLER, Paul HECK, Peter MILLER and Nathan HAWLEY. This settlement began six and extended nearly ten miles from Ash Grove to the north." 2. "The other members of that colony [the IP Methodists in the Camden Valley], the DULMAGES, CARSCALLENS, DETLORS, MILLERS, SPARLINGS and HAWLEYS I have only space to trace their names and leave them, with a remark. They all excepting HAWLEY, made their way to the province of Canada, where many years subsequently Bishop ASBURY found their descendants, honored and Christians. As a company for energy, strength and worth of moral and religious character, they were scarcely ever equalled [sic], never excelled." 3. "The Methodist families composing the Camden Valley settlement, and without doubt composed the class membership were, Philip and David EMBURY, Catherine LOWE, Christopher and Peter SWITZER, Paul and Barbara HECK, John LAWRENCE, Edward CARSCALLEN, John DULMAGE, Valentine DETLOR, together with Abraham BININGER. ... The Camden membership largely scattered during the Revolutionary WAr, while the Ash Grove membership largely remained." Many of the early IP settlers to the Camden Valley were harassed by Ethan and Ira Allen, who were hooligans at the time, and who later played parts in the Revolution. Allen and his gang burned IP homes and drove off or stole livestock - frequently. The IPs generally wanted to stay out of the fracas, but they were inclined to be Loyalists as they had been given/sold their land by the English Crown.. and because the Crown had provided a safe haven for them during the great Palatine Migration. Thus, when push came to shove, the IPs sided (understandably) with the English, and many elected to flee to Ontario where they were given land by the King of England. There they found a safe haven at last. Now...here's another detail, but this does not come with a guarantee. <g> A few years ago I transcribed a number of headstone inscriptions found in a cemetery near the "Old White Church" in Cambridge, NY. If memory serves, there were DETLOR/DETLER graves therein... and I think I saw one with the first name of Valentine. Those records were submitted to the Washington County GenExchange, which is unfortunately currently offline, so we have no access to the db at the moment. But it's a possibility! Hope this is of some help to you, Marilyn. It's nice to see another Camden Valley IP descendant on-list! Susan At 11:01 AM 7/23/01 -0400, you wrote: >Since joining the list, which I think is brilliant by the way, I have >never come across our family Palatines. Below is a Timeline of our >Palatine ancestors. Can anyone on the list update or confirm what is >below? Much appreciated if you can. > >Marilyn.

><< Do you wonder if at that time perticully the earlier arrivals if they >spoke German or part?>> From what I've read the early IPs did indeed speak German...and many lived in close proximity to one another for the purpose of keeping their traditions and language alive. > << My cousin who I told you about before that is in her 70's and her > older sister close to 90 said that our grandmother Lydia Seibert Stark > said she was Pennsylvania Dutch and spoke a dialect in the early 1900's > to them when they were children.>> Y'all probably already know this but just in case there's somebody out there to whom this may be news... Pennsylvania "Dutch" were German Palatines (not IPs). The word "Dutch" was a distortion of the word "Deutsch", which is a German word for just that, German. Early non-German colonists heard the word "Deutsch" and thought it was "Dutch" and that's what stuck - all these years later, too. Susan <stepping back out of a question that was asked of Carole! <g>)

Thanks, Carole and Di! Your resources have been added to the list and Di, you've been added as one who has access to "People Make Places". Here's an updated list of our group resources. Thanks to everybody who has been willing to contribute to the list. Special thanks to Terry for all his transcribing and posting of the Groves papers. Way to go, Terry! Susan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1. *Palatine Families of Ireland*, by Hank Jones. Published by Picton Press of Camden, ME, 1990 (Susan Willig, Carole Ruckle Richardson) 2. *To Their Heirs Forever*, by Eula C. Lapp. Published by Mika Pub. Co. of Belleville, Ontario, 1977. (Barb Milburn, Mary McDonald*, Susan Willig*, Carole Ruckle Richardson) 3. IRISH RECORDS James G. Ryan basically the civil parish vs. religious parish correlation...lookups available (Susan Patt Spencer) 4. THE SURNAMES OF IRELAND MacLysaght shows origins of names..lookups available (Susan Patt Spencer) 5. STATE CENSUS RECORDS (USA) Ann S. Lainhart give infor about whats contained in the state census returns and when they were taken for each state...lookups available (Susan Patt Spencer) 6. "People Make Places" Patrick J O'Connor, by ireacht na Mumhan Books 1989 (Chris LeGear, Carole Ruckle Richardson, Barb Milburn, Di Mitchell) 7. "The Irish Palatines of Ontario" Carolyn A Heald, available as part of "Canadian Papers in Rural History" by Langdale Press, Gananoque, Ontario (Chris LeGear) 8. "The Irish Palatines" Rev. Dudley L Cooney. 1999 Deutsch Irischer Freundeskreis but available from the Palatine Heritage Centre, Rathkeale. (Chris LeGear) 9. 1881 Great Britain Census (Chris LeGear, Terry Pyper, Barb Milburn) 10. ) "A New Genealogical Atlas of Ireland" by Brian Mitchell,(1986, Baltimore, 123pp), with maps and listings of provinces, counties, baronies, Poor Law Unions (PLU), civil parishes, dioceses and probate districts. For townlands, I refer to a lovely Website posted by Ed Finn at: http://www.seanruad.com/cgi-bin/iresch. (Terry Pyper) 11. Cassell's Gazeteer of 1899 ('A complete topographical dictionary of the United Kingdom' , which - at that time, of course, included Ireland). Nothing more than photocopied pages of descriptions of localities, with illustrations and maps, but interesting. (Terry Pyper) 12. "Irish Family Names" by Kelly (Lois Sparling) 13. "Over the Hill and Far Away: Tracing the Sparlings" compiled by Bryant. (Lois Sparling ) 14. several 19c Ordnance Survey Maps, including Ryninch Upper townland in north Tipperary near Killaloe. (Lois Sparling) 15. "The Smeltzers of Kilcooly", R. M. Smeltzer (Carole Ruckle Richardson Baltimore, MD ) 16.. "The Loyalists of Ontario", Reid (Carole Ruckle Richardson Baltimore, MD ) 17.. "Early Palatine Emigration", Knittle (Carole Ruckle Richardson Baltimore, MD [email protected] ) 18. *The Romance of the Palatine Millers- a Story of the United Empire Loyalists* by Rev Bowman Tucker 1929 (Barb Milburn, Susan Willig) 19. *Descendants of John Miller & Mary Ann St John of Brock Township* by Don Blakely & Jean Perry, 1999 (Barb Milburn) 20. *Tennison Grove Papers *, (Barb Milburn, Susan Willig, Terry Pyper) 21. *Family tree Makers Family Archives, Genealogical Records: The Ontario register, 1780s-1870s CD # 204 from FHL*, (Barb Milburn) 21. BMDs from Rathkeale, Adare, Nantinan including some cemetery recordings (Barb Milburn) 22. Vital Records index-British Isles CD from FHL (Barb Milburn) 23. Vital Records index - North America CD from FHL (Barb Milburn) 24. "The Bittinger, Bittner, Biddinger, and Bidinger Families--and Their Kin---of Garrett County, Maryland*, by Wayen Bittinger. It is 836 pages of great information containing a great deal of information on some of the Irish Palatines who migrated from Ireland.. ([email protected] - Carole) 25. "All Ireland is in and about Rathkeale", ISBN 0 9512184 7 6, published by Oireacht na Mumhan Books 1966. (Di Mitchell ) WEB SITES: 1. Teskey family website www.teskey.org - Family Tree - Teskey Family Tree - Surnames. This contains hundreds of spouses and descendants with other Palatine surnames, and shows how they are related through the Teskey line. 2. . The Irish Palatine Association's website www.erin.ie/ipa is a useful source. Whilst it's not yet as friendly as it should be, it does contain some useful information. It has a unique record of pupils who enrolled at Rathkeale No 2 School between 1873 and 1910, soon to be joined by a record of pupils at the No 3 School. (Submitted by Ken McDonald 2 Greenfields, Stansted, Essex, CM24 8AH, England [email protected] )

Hi Terry Did you get an email from me 2 or 3 days ago? I don't seem to have it in my 'sent file' so perhaps it is hiding in space. I included several births and marriages that took place in Kilscannel Parish. Julius was listed as son of James in his marriage record mary -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 5:54 PM Subject: [IP] Rathkeale No 2 link >Hi Mary > >Thank you - the fun goes on. > >Hey, I think you know something you're not telling me about... What's your >source, please? (You've already helped me with Kilscannel records on John & >Mary Ann Piper - both in the school register, but where DID you get that >information?) > >HOW do you know Julius was the son of James? The reason I enquire, Mary, is >because I think the James in question is (was) the son of Richard Piper (of >Jacob/James 1765) - which latter, I have long suspected, was also the daddy >of my own long-sought GGF, another Richard. > >The data I have says James was baptised 14 Feb 1836 - registered at St. >John's Church, Limerick. My Richard was born abt. 1834 (probably also >baptised in Limerick). > >Sources, dear Mary, SOURCES. You show me yours... > >Whilst I'm here, dear Listers, may I secondly thank Ken McDonald for >responding so swiftly to my breathless despatch the other day. He furnished >my father's school details as well. A superb bonus. And if Charley's elder >sister Gladys and younger brothers Harry (William Henry) and Victor were >there too, I would be beside myself. So silly, I know. (I think, however, >they were living in Dublin, while my father stayed with Grandmother Catherine >in Killeheen.) > >But that's bye the bye. And getting very jumbled ... like the charming >enquirer the other day who had me in stitches about "getting dumber as I work >through the shipping lists". I imagine we've all been there at some point. I >was glad to see a quick response from someone who knew what to do (the >sparkling Sparling connection). > >Very many thanks, too, are due to Marilyn from Canada, who quickly offered to >look up the 1901 census (and 'phone books) for Winnipeg - mailing the >extensive data very shortly afterwards. She writes, so matter-of-factly, "... >Yes, I do have a subscription with xxx.com and what better way to put it to >use than to help somebody out if I can." Such generosity of spirit. > >I'm so glad I joined. > >Terry (Lincolnshire UK) > >PS (for Susan): Can I post some more Tenison Groves material on the list (if >anyone's interested)? I'll check what's been sent already and assemble some >of the extra stuff I've typed out, if that's OK >__________ > >Preferred email address: <A HREF="mailto:[email protected]"> >[email protected]</A> > > >==== IRL-PALATINE Mailing List ==== >Great minds talk about ideas. Average minds talk about >events. Small minds talk about people. > >

Lo [#P: THIS TEXT IS VERY LONG (about 5 pages). The figures may slide around all over the place. If you're keen enough you could align them to suit your own preferred layout.] ***START HERE*** Entry Book of King's and Queen's Letters & of Reports &c Vol 15 1E-2-6 in Record Office Dublin Report of 15 February 1710/11 of Commissioners of Palatines To their Excellencies the Lords & Justices &c of Ireland May it please your Excellencies We the Commissioners appointed for the care and settlement of the poor Palatines of this Kingdom, have in obedience to your Excellencies' commands, taken into consideration the order of reference directed to use by your Excellencies dated 4 January 1710 together with a copy of a Letter from his Grace the Duke of Ormonde, Lord Lieutenant of this Kingdom dated 20 Dec last and likewise the copies of other letters mentioned by his Grace and relating to our Representation dated 25 July 1710 laid before the Lord Lieutenant containing our opinion and proposal for the settlement of the poor Palatines in this kingdom, And find by his Grace's Letter That it is expected from us (1) That We should give an entire deduction from the beginning of the management of these poor people, in order to state the matter, and put it in due light before his Grace. (2) That we should give an account of What numbers landed here (3) What money they have received (4) What sort of present they are upon together with all other observations that appear to us necessary. (5) And lastly, Our Opinion upon the whole What may be fit for her Majesty to do therein We take leave to acquaint your Excellency that we have already answered most of these Queries in a memorial formerly presented to the Lords Justices of this Kingdom and dated 18 Dec last, the particulars of which we in this repeat and enlarge, to make the answer as perfect as we can (1) As to the First of these Queries We think it our duty to represent to your Excellencies That at the first coming of these Palatines here care was taken to lodge them conveniently, and a daily subsistence allowed them, And as soon as possible the families were distributed into several Lots, most of which several Gentlemen of good credit and estates drew. These gentlemen seemed very fond of them, they being Protestant and being very much wanted in this Kingdom, And therefore in order to plant their estates with them they provided habitations for such as fell to their lots, together with firing and other conveniences, To do which they were at great charges, And most of the Palatines were taken to the several places provided for them, with all expedition. We further assure your Excellencies That all due care and endeavours were used to settle them, and that besides an allowance which the Commissioners thought necessary to appoint to be paid them out of her Majestie's Bounty of 18 pence per week for every one of them of the age of 14 and upwards, and 1 shilling for every one under 14, which had been punctually paid to them, Lands were set apart by several Gentlemen, which, as we are informed, and some of us are assured by our personal knowledge of the facts, were assigned them at very easy rates, and often at a third part of less rent, than the like lands were let to other tenants, they were likewise furnished with necessaries, and opportunities of earning their bread by their labour, and treated with humanity by their entertainers, at great expence to many of them. (2) To the 2nd Query We find That there landed from the 4th to the 7th of September 1709 798 families or 2971 persons: 1836 over 14 - 1135 under 14 on 14 Oct 1709 25 families or 100 persons: 62 over 14 - 38 under 14 on 24th January following 2 families or 2 persons both under 14 Total number landed 821 families or 3073 persons: 1898 over 14 - 1175 under 14 The ……. was reduced by ……. of relations which altered not the number of persons for which we deduct 30 from the number of families & Remains 791 families or 3073 persons: 1898 over 14 - 1175 under 14 Of these were disposed into the country as above 533 families or 2098 persons, 1284 over 14 - 814 under 14 Remained in Dublin 258 families or 975 persons, 614 over 14 - 361 under 14 (3) As to the 3rd Query There has been paid in Provisions at their first landing to the 15th September aforesaid, and in the weekly allowance of 18d to every one over the age of 16 & 12d to every one under 14, Whether they were in the country or in Dublin £. s. d. from that time to the 7th of this instant February 13200 14 6 Besides Incidental Charges & Salaries which come to 890 10 0 Total Charge to 7 Feb 1710 £14090 14 6 Towards the defraying of which charge there has been received by Charitable Collections £409 18 6¼ The remainder has been paid out of the £24000 allowed by her Majesty £13680 15 11¾ So that there remains undisposed to complete said £24000 £10319 4 0¼ £24000 0 0 We must here observe that several are dead and as soon as their deaths are known their subsistence is struck off. Others have been born, and as soon as demanded the subsistence of 1s is allowed them, except the new born of late. (4) As to the 4th Query In what sort the Palatines are at present, We answer That most of them that were settled in the country have left their settlements, notwithstanding the kind entertainment they met with, and returned again to this city. That a good many of them, whilst the Arsenal designed near this city went on, were employed in that work. That since that time they have lived on her Majestie's allowance, without troubling themselves with any labour, that we know of; That many of those that left their settlements in the country, stole away without giving the Gentlemen that entertained them any notice, as we are informed. And we further acquaint your Excellencies, that many of them have left this country and gone into Great Britain. 'Tis difficult to find out exactly the times of their deaths or births, or the number of those that are gone away, or the precise time of their leaving the Kingdom, But we have had musters made of those that are in Dublin By which we find that there are now In this city 319 families or 1321 persons, viz 776 over 14 - 545 under 14 In the country 188 families or 730 persons, viz 432 over 14 - 298 under 14 Total in the Kingdom 307 families or 2051 persons, viz 1208 over 14 - 843 under 14 Gone away 284 families or 937 persons, viz 625 over 14 - 312 under 14 Dead: 198 persons, viz 71 over 14 - 127 under 14* Born: 113 persons, viz 113 under 14* Which last being deducted from 791 families or 3181 persons, viz 1904 over 14 - 1282 under 14 There remains the Total number landed 791 families or 3073 persons, viz 1904 over 14 - 1169 under 14 We cannot certainly tell what are the motives that prevail with them to act in the manner they do, But by the best information we can get We find that They had a notion when they came into this Kingdom that her Majesty had lands here which they were to have rent free, nor can any of them be persuaded to the contrary There are also some turbulent and malicious persons amongst them that stir up the rest, and by false stories possess them, that they will fare much better in England than here, and We understand several letters have been writ to them out of England by those that are gone thither for that purpose, Particularly there is one John James Seames a tailor that lived here several years before their arrival and led a very lewd sort of life, run in debt and broke. This man has got himself to be employed by them and cheats them of several sums of money under pretence of being an Agent for them, and as we are informed, writes letters to them to go into England, and bears them in hand of some great thing he is doing for them there; And though pains have been taken to persuade them to the contrary, they will not yet be convinced for, he being their countryman they believe him before anything that can be said to them here. We are not yet certain what number intend to stay, for many of them seem to have a mind to return to their own country, at least as soon as there shall be a Peace, and pretend Letters inviting them so to do, And therefore will not take lands or come into any engagements; And many of them seem design to live on her Majestie's allowance here, till a Peace will be made, and then go back to Germany. (5) As to the last thing Our Opinion upon the whole What may be fit for her Majesty to do, Your excellencies may observe that there remain now in the Kingdom of these Palatines above 14 years of age the number of 1208 and under 14 the number of 843 the weekly charge of these according to the subsistence at present allotted them is £123 15s Besides contingencies and salaries about 9 0 Total weekly charge £141 15s That there remains of the £24000 allowed by her Majesty the sum of £10319 4s 0¼d which will subsist them if applied in the present manner, for 72 weeks and 5 days and will be exhausted 2nd July 1712. But forasmuch as there will be an absolute necessity for the families that settle here to have Cows and Horses and some other little necessaries, for which there is no other fund than the above sum, We are humbly of the opinion That If Her Majesty will be pleased to allow the 40s per annum to every family, according as proposed in our Representation of 25 July 1710 which is intended towards the payment of the Rents they shall set under, That the said sum of £10319 4s 0½d will be best employed in the following manner, viz One Moiety thereof in buying them Stock And the other Moiety continued in subsisting them at the rate of 9d per week to each person above the age of 14 and 6d per week to each person under that age. We have nothing more to add to that Memorial, only that the Palatines may be obliged to declare themselves whether they will accept of this settlement, and that such as will accept of it immediately enter into Covenants & Obligations such as other tenants do with their Landlords upon such terms as shall be settled by the Commissioners, or such persons as her Majesty shall appoint to act for them, And that such as will not, may be sent to their own country or elsewhere with the first opportunity. And We further with all humility repeat to your Excellency Our earnest request that you will be pleased to interpose your good offices for obtaining with all convenient speed an answer to our before mentioned Representation, We having received information from the Gentlemen who have yet retained several of these Palatines on their lands, That they will be obliged to return them to Dublin, in case by 25th March next, A Resolution be not taken to allow them the 40s per annum according to our proposal, that being generally the time for disposing of lands in this Kingdom for the ensuing year. All of which is humbly submitted by Your Excellencies' most humble servants Will.Dublin, W.Kildare, Pa.Dun, W.Fownes, Isaac Manley, Robt Curtis, Cha.Campbell, B.Burton Fran.Harrison, John ….. Saml Walton. dated at Dublin 15 February 1710 Enclosed in a letter ….. (of date) 3 March 1710 from Con.Phipps, Canc. ………. to Lord Ormonde ***END HERE*** [A moiety is a half - from Old French] Here on the north-eastern coast the day is drawing to a close. You will be relieved perhaps that I will be quiet for a few days now. No more screaming screens. There is still quite a bit of documentation to post, if an interest is sustained. Bye

Hang on a minute Terry, whilst I compose myself after a bout of hysterics !! The names of the Palatine Commissioners below, I note, include - "Narcissus Archbishop of Armagh", and "Clotworthy Viscount Massereene" !!!!! Can you confirm you are not pulling our collective multi-national leg? Di Mitchell England ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 12:35 PM Subject: [IP] GROVES TRANSCRIPTS #M > Hi > > Another package for spare time reading. > > [#M: The following is a list of the very powerful representatives appointed > as Commissioners for the Relief of the Poor Distressed Palatines in Ireland, > in October 1709. It includes (in order of precedence): 2 Archbishops, 3 > Earls, 3 Viscounts, 4 Bishops and 2 Barons, but no partridges. A quorum of 7 > members was sufficient to carry a resolution, so most did not attend > meetings, although Thomas Southwell was already busy corresponding on the > issue in the background and I have attached below an earlier petition from a > genuinely concerned Archbishop in the northern province of Ulster. As usual, > you just need to look for 'end here' to find the cut-off point.] > > ***START HERE*** > > Entry Book of King's & Queen's Letters & Reports &c > Original Queen's Letter No 337 in Carton 160 in Record Office > dated at Windsor 15 Oct 1709 entered at signet office 17 Oct 1709 > > Appoints following as Commissioners for the Palatines in Ireland > > Richard Freeman esq the Lord Chancellor of Ireland and Richard Ingoldsby esq > the > Lt General of the Forces in Ireland who are the Lords Justices in the absence > of Thos Earl of Wharton the Lord Lieutenant; > Narcissus Archbishop of Armagh, > William Archbishop of Dublin > Robert Earl of Kildare, Henry Earl of Drogheda, > Hugh Earl of Mount-Alexander, Pierce Viscount Ikerrin, > Clotworthy Viscount Massereene, Viscount Castlecomer, > Welboro Bishop of Kildare, St George Bishop of Clogher > Edward Bishop of Down & Connor, Charles Bishop of Derry, > The Barons of Howth Santry & Shelburne > Alan Brodrick esq Speaker of the House of Commons > Sir Wm Fownes kt Lord Mayor of Dublin > Thos Brodrick esq. Sir Thomas Southwell bt. Sir Pat Dun kt, > John Forster esq the Solicitor General, > John Allen, Oliver St George, Joseph Dean > William Whitshed, William Connolly, Edmund Stafford > Joseph Kelly, Isaac Manley, Charles Campbell > Robert Curtis, Samuel Walton, Thomas Quin > John Page, Benjamin Burton, John Pierson > Barkey, Francis Harrison & Hugh Henry esqs > > any 7 of them to be a Quorum. > _________________ > > Entry Book of "Civil Petitions" p 13 Vol 15 for 1709-13 > 1E-1-90 > > Recommendation 12 Sep 1709 by Narcissus Archbishop of Armagh in favour of a > Brief for a General Collection in all Churches throughout Ireland, and also > for a Special Collection to be immediately made in the Dublin Churchs without > delaying for the General Collection, for the poor Palatines lately come into > this Kingdom. > > ***END HERE*** > > [This just about rounds off the fateful year 1709, apart from two small > documents relating to the equally important matter of the emigrants sent on > to America, dated December. These will be in the next bundle (#N). After that > we stride boldly into 1710, when activities begin to hot up behind the > scenes.] > > Kiss kiss > > Terry > > > ==== IRL-PALATINE Mailing List ==== > Try to do little things in an extraordinary way. > >

Di Narcissus. As she is writ on this A4 scroll of parchment before me. Walt What made it even harder for our Palatines is the fact that they were travelling downstream. Have a good day too. Terry

Hello Just a quickie - showing a bit of bad grace on the part of His Grace Will. Dublin, the other Archbishop of the Commission for the Relief of the Palatines, together with a sorry attendance report from 'same'. ***START HERE*** MSS Catalogue in Record Office Dublin of Petitions to the Lords Lieutenants & Lords Justices of Ireland MS Calendar of Church Miscellaneous Correspondence 1652-1795 In Record Office Dublin No 37 Wm (KING) Archbishop of Dublin to Joshua Dawson Dublin 2 Feb 1710 Promises to use his best endeavours to obtain from the Commissioners appointed to manage the affairs of the lately introduced Palatines, as soon as possible. The writer opposed their coming into the Kingdom. But now they are here Charity makes him to endeavour to make the best of them. Finds it difficult to get an accurate account of the families that first came over, of the dead, or of the gone away. Most have left their settlements in the country and returned to Dublin. There is no accurate account to be had yet, But believes £13000 or £14000 has been spent on them, and they seem as far from any settlement as the first day they came over. They are discontented and do nothing but complain. ___________________________ No 38 same to same Dublin 3 Feb 1710/11 The Commissioners of the Palatines, except Sir Patrick Dun & Mr Curtis, did not appear at the meeting of the Commissioners of the Palatines appointed for this day, nor did Mr Smales the Secretary, nor Mr Watkins the Accountant. ***END HERE*** [Good heavens, even the staff can't be bothered to turn up. The next despatch is very BIG (5 or 6 pages). It is an important breakdown regarding the fate (their "present") of our poor, distressed....etc. It certainly merits a close read. The text I have is illegible in a couple of places, so I have run a chain of dots. Fillers would be welcome if anyone has a cleaner original] Bye bye Terry (your Chronicler for today)

Hi It would be interesting to know just how many of our friends on the IRL List had ancestors who were (probably) amongst the groups being shipped out to New York towards the end of 1709. Genealogical research is difficult enough when we are faced with such a dearth of official Irish records, but when it comes to scanning the dreary passenger manifests on Cyndi's List and similar very good but incomprehensible sites, the problem becomes acute. How do you know the port of embarkation? What was the ship's name? What port in America (or Canada/Australia) was it destined for? What happened to the immigrants thereafter? A great deal of assistance is offered on-line, but it is so difficult to navigate (no irony intended here) the databases. With the Palatines of Limerick, Wexford, Cork and Kerry, etc., we can refer easily to Walter Knittle's excellent source as a starting point. But, frankly, after that the hunt can founder so easily. The good thing is that we persist. And persist. We are dogged because we want to know and feel we have a right to know. >From time to time, some of these transcripts throw out a thread of encouragement, but the refugees out of Ireland are dealt with very cursorily. I will include as much information as Groves provides me with, but it is scant in this regard. By the way what were the names of the many troopships and packet boats that ferried our people in six 'crossings'. I calculate that each boat, on average, would carry about 250 souls, in very cramped conditions. That makes a lot of ships, man. Does anybody know this trivial detail? ***START HERE*** Printed Calendar of Treasury Papers for 1708 1714 p 148 MS Vol 117 No 27 Memorial dated 17 December 1709 of the Officers of Ordnance to the Duke of Marlborough in reference to the furnishing to the Palatines going to New York 600 tents, firelocks* &c. They had issued tents for the whole of the Palatines encamped at Camberwell & Blackheath, and no money had been given for either service. They also claim sums for other services, and ask That her Majesty shall give directions for payment. Enclosed is an estimate for the tents. [* Muskets; occasionally, the word 'firing' is used too. I think this also refers to the old flintlocks, rather than logs and kindling, as I initially thought] ___________________ p 149 MS Vol 117 No 30 Memorial dated 17 December 1709 of Henry Bendysh to the Lord Treasurer (Godolphin) Has executed charter parties with Commanders and Owners of ships who were to carry the 3000 and about 300 Palatines to New York at £5 10s per head, And Memorialist was therefore bound for between £18000 and £19000 besides demurrage*. Prays for a Warrant to the Hon Spencer Compton esq for a payment for the same at the rate of £1500 a week. In the Minute Book 13 Sep 1710 is Order for £500 per week to pay Mr Bendysh £25000 balance due of £25854 15s 8d due for transporting Palatines to New York. [*Penalty for late loading] ***END HERE*** [We shall see more later, with reference to the pitch and tar projects.] Bye bye Terry

Hi Another package for spare time reading. [#M: The following is a list of the very powerful representatives appointed as Commissioners for the Relief of the Poor Distressed Palatines in Ireland, in October 1709. It includes (in order of precedence): 2 Archbishops, 3 Earls, 3 Viscounts, 4 Bishops and 2 Barons, but no partridges. A quorum of 7 members was sufficient to carry a resolution, so most did not attend meetings, although Thomas Southwell was already busy corresponding on the issue in the background and I have attached below an earlier petition from a genuinely concerned Archbishop in the northern province of Ulster. As usual, you just need to look for 'end here' to find the cut-off point.] ***START HERE*** Entry Book of King's & Queen's Letters & Reports &c Original Queen's Letter No 337 in Carton 160 in Record Office dated at Windsor 15 Oct 1709 entered at signet office 17 Oct 1709 Appoints following as Commissioners for the Palatines in Ireland Richard Freeman esq the Lord Chancellor of Ireland and Richard Ingoldsby esq the Lt General of the Forces in Ireland who are the Lords Justices in the absence of Thos Earl of Wharton the Lord Lieutenant; Narcissus Archbishop of Armagh, William Archbishop of Dublin Robert Earl of Kildare, Henry Earl of Drogheda, Hugh Earl of Mount-Alexander, Pierce Viscount Ikerrin, Clotworthy Viscount Massereene, Viscount Castlecomer, Welboro Bishop of Kildare, St George Bishop of Clogher Edward Bishop of Down & Connor, Charles Bishop of Derry, The Barons of Howth Santry & Shelburne Alan Brodrick esq Speaker of the House of Commons Sir Wm Fownes kt Lord Mayor of Dublin Thos Brodrick esq. Sir Thomas Southwell bt. Sir Pat Dun kt, John Forster esq the Solicitor General, John Allen, Oliver St George, Joseph Dean William Whitshed, William Connolly, Edmund Stafford Joseph Kelly, Isaac Manley, Charles Campbell Robert Curtis, Samuel Walton, Thomas Quin John Page, Benjamin Burton, John Pierson Barkey, Francis Harrison & Hugh Henry esqs any 7 of them to be a Quorum. _________________ Entry Book of "Civil Petitions" p 13 Vol 15 for 1709-13 1E-1-90 Recommendation 12 Sep 1709 by Narcissus Archbishop of Armagh in favour of a Brief for a General Collection in all Churches throughout Ireland, and also for a Special Collection to be immediately made in the Dublin Churchs without delaying for the General Collection, for the poor Palatines lately come into this Kingdom. ***END HERE*** [This just about rounds off the fateful year 1709, apart from two small documents relating to the equally important matter of the emigrants sent on to America, dated December. These will be in the next bundle (#N). After that we stride boldly into 1710, when activities begin to hot up behind the scenes.] Kiss kiss Terry

Good morning, dear colleagues It's Sunday on the planet I inhabit. [#L: Here is more ancient manuscript regarding the destiny of your forebears. Now the Irish House of Lords (a bit like the Senate, only sillier) is putting in it's cautious fourpennyworth of the home revenues for the benefit of the Palatine refugees. DO remember it is money from the coffers of the IRISH Treasury that is being dispensed at the behest of the good Queen Anne.....] ***START HERE*** Journals of the Irish House of Lords printed page 312 Vol 2 We your Majestie's most dutifull and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, most humbly beg leave to lay before your Majesty, the Case of the poor Protestant Palatines, which your Majesty has been pleased to order to be sent into this Kingdom, whose circumstances we have at heart with all possible compassion and Christian charity, and whom we are ready according to our ability to assist and relieve. But we humbly at the same time represent to your Majesty, That this Kingdom is greatly impoverished by decay of trade and a great scarcity of provisions, That many thousands who formerly kept houses and were able to relieve the poor are themselves become objects of charity, That great numbers of the Nobility and Gentry and of such as have the most beneficial employments civil and military live out of the Kingdom, who were best able to contribute to this good work. And many of those who remain in it, have contracted debts, by the hardships put on them by the late Trust for Forfeitures, being put to vast expenses in defending their claims and purchasing the estates [left they ?] paid for. All which being considered, We humbly beseech your Majesty, to be pleased to allow them a subsistence out of your Revenues of this Kingdom, as has been done by your Majesty and your glorious predecessor to the French refugees, till such time as these poor people, by their industry and the better circumstances of this Realm may be settled and put in a way of subsisting; Which seasonable and Royal Charity will add to the glories of your Majestie's reign induce your Parliament here to make good to your Majesty that shall be expended, and bring down the Divine blessings on your Majesty your Government and people. Agreed to on 29 August 1709 ***END HERE*** [I was unable to read the fuzzy copy at the point where I have put a question mark. Does anyone have a more readable page, please? The "Trust for Forfeitures" was a swingeing piece of legislation passed under the previous King William of Orange relating to land settlement which penalized the aristocratic landlords - I think that's the story anyway. Must investigate further. Don't worry, like you I'm learning every day.] More of the same later. The next refers to the 39 men (note the gender) appointed to provide for the relief of the Palatines. Heigh-ho. Bye bye (still Sunday here). Terry

Hi Jean Thanks for your reply. I live in the village of Saltford between Bristol and Bath, England. The 'Legeer' family I'm searching for include connections to a number of the names on your list. I suspect that we do have a family connection as I have Michael Legeer (1859-1932) married to Lydia Stark (1860-1915). Michael was the son of Adam Legeer (1816-1886)originally from Ireland. I believe they were at Vale Summit (Pompey Smash)at one time. I also have Legeers married into the Bowser, Buskirk and Spiker Families all of which centre on the Garret/Allegany County areas of Maryland. Jacob was married to Christina Spiker and was killed in an accident at the Hoffman Mine in 1861 leaving five children. What I need is a connection to a living Legeer who has the local family information to help me put the pieces together. One of the biggest problems I have with verification is the frustrating habit that many of our ancestors had of using their middle names, for instance Jacob above was really George Jacob. etc. I'm pretty sure that there were Legeers in Bittinger as well, I understand that there is also a Legeer Road and a Legeer School there. I thank you for your offer to help but short of kidnapping a local Legeer and interrogating him I'm at a loss as to how to proceed!! Most of what I have on this group has been gleaned from monitoring the Allegany Co. site at RW and I have also corresponded with people on that list. Perhaps some of your Stark relations have somne information via the Michael/Lydia route. I know what you mean about the migration habits of our ancestors. We have several generations of Le Gears that have made their way to Canada and the US. I have two uncles, Rathkeale born, that were sent to America in the late 1920s as young children to be with relatives that could give them a better life. One was taken in but the other abandoned, (at the age of 13 y/o!). My father should have gone too but on the day of departure hid in the fields until the ship had sailed. He eventually came to England after WW2. We have other LeGears in Australia, at least two separate migrations. Strangely enough the Family Group I know least about are the LeGears of Northern Ireland. Around 1910 my Grandfather at Court Matrix married Theresa O'Halloran. His mother (Rebecca Teskey) refused to live in the same house as a Catholic and removed herself with the rest of her children to the North. There appears to have been no family contact at all after that. Bye for now Chris Le Gear In sundrenched Camelot England _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

<The beat goes on > Terry, Your keyboard must be beating constantly. Thanks for your mamoth efforts. Cheers Jacqui Cunningham, Central Victoria, Australia. http://www.oldnewscopy.com "It's Old News!"

Hello Chris, I have read over your letter again, wondering what you need [brick wall] help in that perhaps I can help you with. I am not sure where you are from. But to explain the geography of this area the Maryland, Allegany Co. - Garrett Co. Md.- Somerset Co. Pa. Fayette Co. Pa. and of West Virginia, this tri Co and tri state area is perhaps only a little over a 100 mile area so that is where a family can be in another state and only 10 miles from uncles, brothers etc. That is how these Stark's and then on the census my great grandfather had his name spelled Stark and Starkey and I have seen it Starke. We have a group of "cousins" that seem to be banding together on this end and comparing notes. Would be happy to include you also if you think your family joins ours. Have Peter Stark, Ruckle/Ruttle, Custer, Friends, Isabelle Custer married Daniel Switzer ,Fitzelle, Loar/Lohr Slabaugh Sybert/Seibert, Bittinger,. The list goes on and on of course. It amazes me as how far these people have gone and yet held to the bond of the group. What must have been awful is when you have had families go to U.S.-Canada-Australia-New Zealand of course Enland and those that stayed in Ireland No wonder you have heard that they gave a wake to those that left. Makes sense and they probably never were to see each other again. I miss my family so much if a couple months go by without hearing from them let alone not to see them again. I live in Greene Co. Pa. about 45-50 miles from Garrett Co. MD Allegany Co. MD. Jean Stark Corwin >From: "Christopher Le Gear" <[email protected]> >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [IP] Great IP Group >Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:55:46 +0000 > >Hi Jean > >I was particularly interested to read your family history as it ties in >with >a bit of a "stone wall" that I have been hitting for a while. In the early >part of the 19th century a whole bunch of IPs left the Killeheen/Kilfinnane >area with no known record of their destination, amongst them some of my >Family Group. Last year I discovered a family group called LEGEER >(slightly >different spelling)historically centred on Allegany Co, Maryland. Their >origin was Ireland in the early 19th century and although I am 99% sure >that >this is my "missing group" I have been unable to make the final 1% >connection. Their descendants still live in the area but I've also been >unable to make contact with them. Some of the names you mention are also >familiar to my researches as are others common to the IP list. > >As for English being the language of the US, I understand that the decision >for English to become the official language was decided by only ONE vote >over German. I'm reminded of the wry humour in the following definition - >"The United States and Great Britain are two nations separated by a common >language!" > >Language, of course, is probably one of the most interesting problems that >cause us on the IP list some measure of bewilderment in our researches. Our >1709 ancestors were German speakers and landed in a country where the >common >language was Irish Gaelic, but the official language was English. Many of >our IP ancestors would have been illiterate (I notice from the Rathkeale No >2 school register that there are only LeGear girls listed! The boys >probably >having more important things to do). Small wonder, then, that there are >differences in spelling and records that confuse and confound us today!! > >Chris Le Gear > > > >>From: "A.J Corwin" <[email protected]> >>Reply-To: [email protected] >>To: [email protected] >>Subject: Re: [IP] Great IP Group >>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 05:15:03 +0000 >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > >==== IRL-PALATINE Mailing List ==== >You can’t plough a field merely by turning it over in your mind. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

You must treat IGI, which usually has sources (name extraction project) and Ancestry File (anyone can submit a file to this) as secondary sources. One must go back to original documents if possible, or a reliable researcher (it would be nice to think that we all are classified here as such) for you data. I've found a number of errors in the past and probably will in the future consulting secondary sources and then following them up to the primary source. That's is my motivation for putting the Rathkeale Church records on the Internet. Fortunately you can get a copy of the primary sources (microfiche) from the LDS Family History Library branch near you. Clifford M Dubery -----Original Message----- From: SLWillig [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 10:43 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [IP] LDS data Hi, Terry - ><<It was simply LDS data. >> I see. Thanks. ><< I think we should not be too sceptical about the LDS info. I would say >that 98% of the details they give (on Pipers, at least) are exactly as I >recorded them in the Rathkeale Rectory some 20 years ago. >> Well, there are two kinds of LDS data online in that search-able file at www.familysearch.org... One type is IGI, and the other kind consists of family files submitted by church members. For many years church members could submit their family pedigrees without much in the way of a source citation. All those files were simply added to the mix - unverified and often totally undocumented. Even though the IGI information is more reliable than the family files, it is advisable to use it/them only as a starting point from whence to verify the findings... Thanks. Susan ==== IRL-PALATINE Mailing List ==== List Administrator: Susan Laursen Willig [email protected]

Hello >From scratch, here follow all the documents in my possession that have not been transcribed elsewhere (refer to the Index April 2000-June 2001) and the batch of 10 I've already posted to the List. It is possible that others exist and I would be glad to know about them and would be willing to set them out at no extra cost...<vbg> (very broad grin - I made that up) [#K: The next two bundles set out the views of the Irish Parliament on the Palatine issue. It's a small matter, but Patrick O'Connor got the Addresses the wrong way round: The Irish House of Commons debated the matter first, as is customary (24 August) and, 5 days later, the House of Lords pronounced. At all events, both were in favour of the principle of supporting the Palatines financially; although, as we shall see in the next packet (#L), their Lordships Spiritual & Temporal, seeing the buck about to stop at their majestic portals, did seem to hedge their bets somewhat.] ***START HERE*** Irish Commons Journals (printed 179 - ) Vol II, p 630 To the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty The Humble ADDRESS of the knights, citizens and Burgesses in PARLIAMENT assembled May it please your Majesty WE yor Majestie's most dutifull and loyal subjects, The COMMONS of IRELAND in PARLIAMENT Assembled, Cheerfully embrace the opportunity which your Majestie's Royal Goodness has given us, of receiving and settling that number of Protestant Palatine Families to which you have been pleased to order to be sent into this Kingdom, And, as they will prove an occasion of strength to the Protestant interest of this nation, so we cannot but entertain them with satisfaction, when we consider the great disproportion between the Protestants and Papists of this Kingdom. Their calamitous circumstances justly remind us, how lately we were turned out of our dwellings by violence and oppression, and forced to seek shelter in England, Our Gratitude obliges us to make a public acknowledgement of that generous bounty which supported so many distressed families of this Kingdom, Religion and Charity call upon us to imitate as far as in us lies, so pious so generous an example, It is therefore our most humble request to your Majesty That as you have already taken these distressed people in your Royal Protection, You will perfect a work so piously and prudently begun, And that you will be pleased to order £5000 a year for 3 years to be issued out of your Tresures of this Kingdom towards the support and settlement of those Protestant Palatine families. Your Faithfull Commons do give your Majesty full assurance that what shall be laid out at their desire they will cheerfully make good in Aids that shall be granted the next Session of Parliament. Resolved 24 August 1709 that the said Address do stand the Address of this House &c &c ***END HERE*** More later Terry

Good afternoon friends To set the record straight about the Palatine patron, having set out a few Transcripts relating to his activities during the first 5 years following the arrival of the immigrants, I would like to cite a telling tribute taken from Patrick O'Connor's seminal book (pp 31-32). As a casual observer, I fully endorse this wholly favourable assessment from a writer whose opinions I have come to trust. It reads as follows: "In 1714 we find him outlining the steps taken to secure the settlement and petitioning the Lord Lieutenant for a repayment of his outlay from government ..... Southwell expressed himself as reluctant to seize the possessions of the Palatines, but he would be obliged to do so if not recompensed by the Crown. Still it took more than two years before the Lord Lieutenant successfully supported the Southwell claim to the British Treasury for a Palatine debt which had grown to £558. All the while Sir Thomas stood by his German tenants who he reported were well settled and pursued the raising of hemp and flax as well as tending to good stock.... Through into better times therefore, this tenacious landlord had shepherded by far the largest of the Palatine settlements in Ireland, and almost as if in belated recognition of his achievement, the Crown awarded Lord Southwell (as he became in 1717) the sum of £1452 just two weeks before he died on August 4, 1720. To mark his passing there was an obituary, an epitaph and an elegy, none of which referred to his role as shaper of an Irish Palatine identity. It has been his major contribution and the one that would abide." There is nothing to add, I think. Terry (Lincs UK)