Hi Jane, Appreciated your e-mail post to both "oldies" and "newbies." I have really been wanting to pose a question, but at the risk of seeming really stupid, :) have hesitated. I am a somewhat experienced researcher, but *not* in the area of Irish research. This is the year I have decided I am going to plunge ahead and try to discover my ROGERS' roots - my mother was a ROGERS and according to family records, the family was from Emyvale, County Monaghan and they were Presbyterian, either Reformed Presbyterian or Seceder Presbyterian. Sorry for the lengthy preamble, but since these posts are archived, thought it would be nice if someone at least knows what family line I am researching. (MORRISON as well, and ALEXANDER and McKIRK) My current question involves the Irish system of baronies, parishes, etc. Can someone give a good explanation of these, simple and understandable, or direct me to a good source? I have already started to "arm myself" with reading material, trying to get a handle on Irish history, especially since my ancestors came to the USA in 1846 during the time of the Famine. When I look at _A Topographical Index of Parishes and Townlands of Ireland in Sir William Petty's Mss. Barony Maps_ published by Genealogical Publishing Co. of Baltimore, authored by Y.M. Goblet, I get confused when I see the mention of Barony, Parish, etc. I know that Ireland's official church, I believe, at the time of the famine, was the Church of Ireland. Does this mean, when I see the mention of "Parish" in the aforementioned book, that this is the Civil Parish? Finally, how can knowing these help me in my research? I know they can, but would like to use them to their fullest. Thanks for any explanation forthcoming and thanks for patience with "the new kid on the block." Regards, Donna Ristenbatt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ der@redrose.net Visit: ON THE TRAIL OF OUR ANCESTORS http://www.ristenbatt.com/genealogy

Dear List, I am just beginning my research in Ireland and am brand new to the List. After reading Jane's email message I've worked up the courage to post a query. I hope I do this in the appropriate manner. My grt, grt. grandfather, JAMES McGOUGH, b. abt. 1821, emigrated from Co. Monaghan, Ireland, to Co. Durham in England bet. 1851 - 1852. The Catholic church record for his death states that his father's name was DENNIS McGOUGH, whose residence was Co. Monaghan. JAMES McGOUGH married BRIDGET DUFFY in Ireland, bet. 1846-1848, presumably in Co. Monaghan as his two oldest children, Denis, b. abt. 1849, and Catharine, b. bet. 1850-1851, were born in Co. Monaghan. Can someone make a suggestion how I can determine what Parish he, JAMES McGOUGH, would have lived in? What would be the most productive and expeditious resource for me to use? I recently made a trip to the local LDS Family History Center and was told that the earliest date for Griffith's Valuation for Co. Monaghan began in 1860. Too late to be of assistance. I know there are a few films for Catholic Church records for Co. Monaghan, but wondered what other resouces there might be. I would love to locate where in Co. Monaghan these ancestors lived as I am planning a trip to Ireland this year, and would love to travel to where they lived. I would appreciate any assistance anyone can offer. Thank you, Judy, Phoenix, Arizona, US

My gggrandmother Mary Ann PEPPER, was born in Clones Monaghan 19 May 1811. Her parents were George PEPPER and Sarah CATHCART. Mary Ann married Michael BRANAN in Liverpool, 13 Dec. 1829,she died 26 Nov. 1852. Would like to know more about this PEPPER family. Also Michael BRANAN"s family if they should by chance be from MONAGHAN also. Jim Brennan Corunna, Ont. Can. where it is snowing and blowing again.

I am looking for information about ROBERT LOWE and MARGARET JANE LOWE [nee MOORE] who would have married in the 1860's. Margaret Jane emigrated to Australia mid 1880's, I have been unable to find the death of ROBERT LOWE here in Australia and I am wondering if he may have died in Ireland. They had two sons born in COOTEHILL, ROBERT MOORE LOWE 1868, and DUNLOP MOORE LOWE 1869, they then had three daughters MARGARET JANE 1874, ANNA ADELAIDE 1876, ETHEL abt 1882 and another son WILLIAM HAMILTON DOBIN MOORE LOWE 1885 all born CLONES, MONAGHAN. Family story is that they ran a tavern or hotel in Monaghan, this maybe would account for Margaret's descent into alcoholism and death from same in 1912. would appreciate any information on the LOWE / MOORE name in these counties. Regards, Jan, Sydney Australia

Hi, I noticed the posting mentioning CONLON. Do you have any Catherine Conlon/Conlin married to a Comiskey/Cummisky? According to the death record of a great great aunt, Elizabeth Comiskey Callahan (Buffalo, NY), her mother was Catherine Conlon/Conlin. Catherine was born 1825/1826 according to the Census. She was married to a Comiskey (possibly Owen or Bernard). Comiskey died. She remarried (unknown Norton). Lizzie was born in 1847 and my gr gr grandmother Mary Comiskey was born in 1843. The census record for Lizzie indicates that she came in 1850. Do you see any connections? Thanks! Terry Carroll Clifton Park, NY ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

--------John Bossidy has asked: Can someone please straighten me out on how GEDCOM works? I know that my various genealogy programs have an "export" facility to send a family history to GEDCOM. But where is GEDCOM? And how can I find out if the file has actually been transferred to GEDCOM? I am working under some assumptions here; namely, that GEDCOM is an adjunct of LDS, which is no problem at all. However, how can I access what I intend to send on the Internet, so other family members can have access to my work? I would like to share. Thanks for any help,______________________________ Dear Mr. Bossidy GEDcom is not a place it is a what - a method of gathering together genealogical files from a formal program and arrangeing it into a format that will make it possible to cram it into as small a space as possible in order to transmit it to somewhere else by way of floppy, CD, email, internet, or between one computer and another or from your own computer to another program on the same computer. Yes, it was created by the LDS Church but is widely used as the most efficient method to do such transfers. It is not literally an "adjunct of the LDS" just a way they devised to move things around electronically and intact. If you go to a search engine on your internet provider and ask for information on GEDCom you will no doubt get an array of such information that will keep you busy for days. Try the following site, it might answer some of your questions about posting to the Internet. http://srd.yahoo.com/srst/18403382/Genealogy+GEDCom/16/33/*http://www.ged4web.com I hope this helps. May your Holidays be happy Agnes.

Over the years I have asked questions and been asked questions by those who those who progress past names and who begin to wonder about words they see 'benefice' 'in fee' 'rectory' vicarage'. I always thought that Civil Parishes were there before religious parishes. We're always told that the Churhc of Ireland Parishes pretty much follow the boundaries of the Civil parishes and yet, as we read through lewis Topogaphical Directory of Ireland we find that this is not necessarily so. This is being posted to the Donegaleire list because it specifically mentions the Diocese of Raphoe. This will be continued............. Extracted from: RECTORY VICARAGE AND PARISH IN THE WESTERN IRISH DIOCESES K. W. Nicholis Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries, "In most areas of western Europe the parochial system (whose essential feature was that a particular church was entitled to the tithes and the profits arising from spiritual minstration within a given area, the parish) was in general a creation of the ninth, tenth and eleventh centuries. In England the system was already fully established by the time of King Edgar (959-63). In the Celtic countries, Wales, Ireland and Scotland, the introduction of the system was of much later date, and followed on the Hildebrandine reformation and in the wake of Norman conquest and penetration. For Ireland, outside the towns of the Ostmen, there is no evidence whatsoever that the formation of parishes had even commenced before the arrival of the Normans. The Norman invaders of Ireland consequently found a land yet undivided into parishes, with the result that for some time after the conquest we find the lay lords exercising 'the right of conferring tithes at will on anyone in orders or [on] any religious corporation [which] preceded the more rigid rule that tithes should be paid to the local parish priest'. This is in contrast to the situation in contemporary England, where grants of portions of the ecclesiastical revenues of a parish 'were always of pensions charged on the parish church, never of pieces of land'. In Ireland, however, even after the establishment of the parochial system and down to the end of the mediaeval period we find in the Munster dioceses the peculiar ecclesiastical benefices called 'particles' (particulae), composed of the tithes of particular lands within a parish and which for purposes other than the payment of tithe continued to form part of that parish.The formation of parishes in the eastern and southern parts of Ireland which were occupied soon after the Norman invasion seems to date from the period of their settlement, the last quarter of the twelfth and the opening years of the thirteenth century, and the parishes in these regions, usually small and often very small, corresponded in general, as was the case in some regions of South Wales, with the holdings of the military tenants of the area. Professor J. Otway-Ruthven, in a paper published in 1965, has traced the development of the parochial system in the rural deanery of Skreen in Meath, one of the most thoroughly settled and Anglicised areas of mediaeval Ireland, and a similar pattern of parishes, reflecting in their boundaries those of the secular manors or fees, is characteristic of most of southern Leinster and of Munster. As a contrast to such parishes, Professor Otway-Ruthyen cites the case of such an enormous parish as Ardnurcher, in Cos. Westmeath and Offaly, which extended over a heavily wooded and boggy region in which Norman penetration had been very slight. In the regions mentioned, as in England, there was no regular system for the partition of the parochial tithes. Originally, of course, the rector or parson had been the parish priest and had received the entire tithe; however, with the coming of the custom of impropriation, by which the parochial revenues were vested in a religious house, and with the increase of the practice of granting rectories as benefices for the support of clerks who were actively engaged elsewhere, in study or in official work, it became necessary to provide vicars who would perform the actual duties of the cure. By the end of the twelfth century the vicarage was becoming a benefice in its own right, in which the holder had a right of freehold, rather than a mere perpetual curacy, and was acquiring its own endowment, consisting of a portion of the tithes of the parish. There was no specific rule, however, for this vicarial remuneration; the vicar might receive a half, a third, or only a quarter of the total tithes, or he might receive the 'small tithes' of the parish, while the rector received the 'great tithes' (those of corn, hay and wood) or again the vicar might receive the tithes of some particular lands within the parish. In other cases the rectory remained 'entire', the rector continuing to exercise the cure and receiving the entire tithe of the parish, and no vicar existed. In the purely Irish dioceses of Ulster, however- Clogher, Derry and Raphoe - we find, in contrast to the haphazard arrangements already described, a system of quite extraordinary regularity. In these dioceses, as throughout the ecclesiastical province of Tuam and in the dioceses of Sodor (Isles) and Argyle in Scotland, the archaic custom of the tripartition or quadripartition of tithes, otherwise unknown in the British Isles although common elsewhere in Europe, and under which the bishop received a third or a quarter (respectively) of all tithes within the diocese, was in force, and in every parish there existed both a sinecure rector and a vicar, who received fixed shares of tithe under the system of tripartition or quadripartition. The system is best described in the words of Bishop George Montgomery, writing about 1609 : ". . . The Byshop of Clogher hath besyde his lands the fourth part of all tythes throughout his Dyoces, which is called quarter episcopalis. The Byshops of Derry and Rapho have the third part, and it is called tertia episcopalis." "The rest of the tythes are devyded betwene the Parson and Vicar. In Clougher the Parson hath two fourth parts, the Vicar hath one. In Derry and Rapho the Parson and Vicar have each of them one third part." "The parsonages were usually bestowed upon students that intended to take orders, towards their mayntenance at schoole, and were enioyned within few yeares after they accepted the parsonage to enter into orders, but hold not themselves bound to execute devyne service. "The Vicars are tyed to perpetuall residence and service of the cure, and besyde their portion of tythes, have the benefit of all oblations and other small ducties at buryals and christenings to themselves alone for attendance of the service ...." "The parsonages and vicarages through all theise three Dyoceses have byn ever collated by the Byshops of theise Sees, without contradiction or challenge of any person" Bishop Montgomery's statement as to all livings being in the collation of the bishops seems not to have been true for an earlier period, as in the fifteenth century several lay advowsons, probably relies of the Norman settlement, occur in the diocese of Derry, and a single doubtful example occurs at that period in the diocese of Clogher. Impropriations were very rare in the three dioceses mentioned. The coexistence in each parish of a sinecure person or rector and a serving vicar was the almost universal practice in the Gaelic parts of Ireland. In the three dioceses mentioned only a single parish of Derry formed an exception to this rule; the '1306' Taxation of Raphoe Diocese shows it already fully established there, and by the beginning of the fifteenth century it was here and elsewhere referred to as the immemorial custom.The rule of tripartition or quadripartion of tithes may possibly have led to the conclusion that the shares other than the bishop's should each go to different persons, but it is perhaps significant that in a number of places the parson or rector was the direct successor of the ancient comharba and in fact bore that title."

Posted on: Ireland<br>County Monagahan<br>Biography & General History Records Board Reply Here: http://genconnect.rootsweb.com/gc/Ireland/MonagahanBios/15 Surname: Scott ------------------------- I have run into somewhat of a dead end in my research. My G-Grandfather, George Joseph Scott. I am trying to locate any additional information about him and parents/siblings. George Joseph Scott Came to the US in 1888 from Ireland. Born on 16 July 1865 in County Monaghan. Two known brothers, Robert and Tom Any information or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Rob

The following is an extract from an article on Children's Burial Grounds in county Mayo: JRSAI, 1969. While it deals with county Mayo, the reason for the existence of special burial grounds for children was the same throughout Ireland and the types of site found in Mayo are the same as used in other counties. An introduction to a survey of these, and other forgotten burial grounds, in the West. R. B. Aldridge "Particular attention does not seem to have been given to the recording and mapping of what are known as "Children's Burial Grounds," primarily used for the burying of unbaptised children. In some areas many are shown on the 6 inch Ordnance Survey maps, whilst in others only a few are marked. Knox mentions most of the well known ones, as does O'Donovan, and these are mostly on the maps. Without local help and interest many can be passed over unnoticed, and in time will be forgotten or destroyed. Some have been lost already in land reclamation work. Probably in most cases unbaptised or stillborn children were not permitted to be buried in consecrated ground, so that special plots outside the normal burial grounds were very necessary. In more recent years these sites have continued to be used as C.B.G's; certainly in many cases burials have taken place within the last twenty years, and even up to as late as 1964 in one case. Obviously in penal times, famines, and before the building of many R.C. Chapels and graveyards during the past 170 years, the distances from isolated villages and farms to a consecrated burial ground were often too great or too difficult for normal use. In many cases I have used the term C.B.G., when it is most probable that the site was also used for adult burials in the past. In some cases there were sites of ancient churches or graveyards, or of ruined abbeys etc., that could be used; in others a convenient rath, or portion of one, was set aside for burials, or a small piece of ground outside a village fenced in; these latter sites not being consecrated ground were used probably for the burial of unbaptised children only. A rath being considered as pagan in origin, was an obvious choice for the burial of the unbaptised. There are no suitable raths in much of the bogland of the west, and though adults might have been taken long distances to consecrated ground, small local enclosures were made for unbaptised children to be buried in. These were often used for the burials of adults also. All the above can be considered as "Communal burial" as opposed to "Private burial places." O'Sullivan deals with the customs connected with children's burials in many parts of the country, and gives a list of some sites, viz gardens, fields, hedges, bushes, a cliff ledge (Donegal), high water mark, outside a church wall, or to the north side of the graveyard. The first five sites can be looked on as "Private burial grounds." The others are "Communal," such as the one at Inver, on the east side of the Broadhaven at high tide mark, (Mayo 10), and another near Ballycroy, marked "Druid's Circle" on the map (Mayo 44). Near the village of Cross is "Toberaningaun Lisheen (Children's Burial Ground)" with a spring well in the centre of it; in this is a grave and headstone to Private Hopkins, R.I.R., dated 1919 (Mayo 121). TYPES OF SITE (a) a prehistoric tomb (b) a very slightly elevated flat rectangular or circular piece of ground. (c) a small plot inside the vallum of a rath. (d) a small plot outside a rath. (e) a small piece cut off from the inside perimeter of a rath. (f) a mound 5 or 6 feet high. (g) marked by a cairn of stones. (h) in an old graveyard with remains of a building, used only as a C.B.G. now. (i) inside the foundations of an old church or abbey building. (j) with the reputed site of a vanished church nearby. extensively used burial places, probably village burial grounds before the building of any nearby chapels, and now C.B.G.'s only. " one reference mentioned:O'Sullivan on the burial of Children. J.R.S.A.I. 1939.

Can someone please straighten me out on how GEDCOM works? I know that my various genealogy programs have an "export" facility to send a family history to GEDCOM. But where is GEDCOM? And how can I find out if the file has actually been transferred to GEDCOM? I am working under some assumptions here; namely, that GEDCOM is an adjunct of LDS, which is no problem at all. However, how can I access what I intend to send on the Internet, so other family members can have access to my work? I would like to share. Thanks for any help, John Bossidy

Please answer to the list, as I would like to know, also. Season's greetings to all! Betty (Delta, BC) John Bossidy wrote: > > Can someone please straighten me out on how GEDCOM works?

The Irish telephone directory is on-line, at either one of these: World phone book: <http://www.phonebookoftheworld.com> European Telephone and Address Listings (includes UK ): <http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/directories/eurotel/main.htm>

This page has moved to: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~colin/FergusonsOfIreland/Monaghan.htm -- Colin Ferguson Coarsegold, CA, USA http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~colin/Research/Index.htm

This is an article - a part of the clogher Record, a great historical resource for the Diocese of Clogher. Check out: http://homepage.eircom.net/~chs/clogher_historical_society.htm Do not know about the LDS holdings. Check out your local and national library catalogues online for possible holdings. HTH.... Ann

Hi and Merry Christmas to everyone ! Does anyone on this list have a phone book for the Castleblanney area ? I have found through another Ranson researcher that there are still Ranson's living in that area . Would love to have an address to write and see if they are any relation. Thank you, Wendy in a very snowed in Michigan rambodog@shianet.org

Hi, Does anyone know if Dr. Patrick J Duffy's "Assisted Emigration From The Shirley Estates 1843-54" is available. Is it on LDS film? My McKENNA family may have been part of this scheme. Therese, in Queensland, Australia. d

Anyone that depends on a particular spelling in doing research is missing out. Many of our ancestors could not spell, read, or write! What ever the gov't worker heard was it. It was also expedient for some too "english" their names - or just to make it simpler! Pick up on all variants. My ggfather was born Goff, christened Gough, worked as McGough, and married as McGeough!! Last most correct. Best, Ann >Does anyone on the list know if ROGERS and RODGERS were just variants in spelling, or was there some reason for using or not using the "D"?

Many emigrants were sent in the 1844-1851 period from the Shirley Estate (the southern end of Co. Monaghan, in the civil parishes of Magheracloone and Magheross), with their passage paid for by the Shirleys as a way of getting rid of what the estate perceived as an overpopulation of tenants, who were starving, and save the estate the Poor Law Union taxes as it was cheaper to pay the passage than the taxes. The estate sent many to Australia and also some to the US, a number of the latter to relatives in the US who already had arrived in the states. The estate shipped the tenants, after providing a minimum of clothing, shoes, bedding and food -- the shipping agent in Liverpool had complained about the "ragged pack" in a previous "shipment" -- and a small amount of "landing money." One route was from Carrickmacross, Magheross, to Droheda and then Dundalk, Co. Louth, a seaport, and thence to Liverpool, and then on to the final destination. They also were shipped to Newry, Co. Armagh, just north of Dundalk, and when the railway to Dublin was opened (from Inniskeen), to Dublin -- all moving on to Liverpool (and sometimes Plymouth first), England, for transport overseas. A large Australian party of about 150 left in August 1849. It is estimated that some 1,300 persons in some 150 families were sent away up to about 1854. (For those researching ancestors who came to the US, a hint: do not neglect looking at passenger-list indexes for the US Port of New Orleans as many Irish immigrants, including some from the Shirley Estate, landed there and later came north into the US Midwest, etc.) This information is fromm the 55-page article in the Clogher Record, Vol. XIV, No. 2 (1992) by Dr. Patrick J. Duffy: "Assisted Emigration From the Shirley Estate 1843-1854." The publication is the journal of the Clogher Historical Society. It also contains lists of emigrants and also some heart-rending petitions from those seeking to be sent away from the state. Sally M

Aughnacloy in the parish of Carnteel, Diocese of Armagh. I have little info on the parish. Aughnacloy is not far from Emyvale, in the parish of Donagh,- walking distance in older days! Both Rogers and Morrisons appear in Donagh in Griffiths c 1858-60 in Monaghan, and Rogers in Aughnacloy in the Tithe Applotment 1827. Church registers: http://www.exis.net/ahd/monaghan/churchregisters.htm Pres. Church in Glennan http://www.presbyterianireland.org HTH.. Ann ___________ Ann Harney http://www.exis.net/ahd/monaghan/ McGeough / Connolly / Floody / Smyth

Ann, Thanks for the information about ROGERS. I'll file it for future reference. Does anyone on the list know if ROGERS and RODGERS were just variants in spelling, or was there some reason for using or not using the "D"? My RODGERS great-grandfather used RODGERS in Monaghan Co., but the family dropped the D (usually) when they came to Canada. Thanks for any information. Betty Ann Harney wrote: