Patrcio would be masculine. -----Original Message----- >From: irl-longford-request@rootsweb.com >Sent: Mar 19, 2008 7:22 PM >To: irl-longford@rootsweb.com >Subject: IRL-LONGFORD Digest, Vol 3, Issue 29 > > > >Longford Genealogy Website: http://www.rootsweb.com/~irllog/ > > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Dispensation and Marriage (king133@juno.com) > 2. Re: Parish Priest - Killoe (IRED52@aol.com) > 3. Parish Priests in 1830 (king133@juno.com) > 4. Re: Dispensation and Marriage (David A. Myers) > 5. Re: Parish Priests in 1830 (David A. Myers) > 6. Re: Parish Priests in 1830 (ngray.phale@att.net) > 7. Re: Parish Priests in 1830 (conaught2) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:14:30 GMT >From: "king133@juno.com" <king133@juno.com> >Subject: [IRL-LONGFORD] Dispensation and Marriage >To: irl-longford@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <20080319.181430.27712.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >Hi Dave, >Thanks for the information on dispensations. In this particular case the marriage between James HUGHES and Bridget KELAGHER took place on 4 days prior to the dispensation. It may have been that after the marriage some new information turned up that made the dispensation necessary. >There were two witnesses to each event: PATRICIO FEHELY and Anna Reynolds to the marriage and Casolo(?) McCann and Bridget Hughes to the dispensation. >I will do some more 'spadework' to see if I can find out what the dispensation might have been. For instance, if I find that Bridget Hughes was some how related to a Kelagher, then this might suggest consanguinity. > >Question: Was Patricio Fehely noted above a Patricia or a Patrick? I and clueless when it comes to Latin. > >Thanks for the help, >Charlie King > > >David wrote: >Hi Charlie, >You're right, I think. Today dispensations are between the priest >and the marriage tribunal and done on paper. We just make a notation >in the record book that the dispensation was granted. The witnesses >are for the marriage itself. I don't know why your dispensation >needed witnesses--- but that was a long time ago. There are other >"dispensations" available. One is from "canonical form" which would >be for a Catholic getting married to a non-Catholic in her >church. Another would be for having the wedding outside a church >building (in the city park, in a hospital bed, SCUBA diving, etc). >I suspect the only way you will know for sure is to review the entire >record book and see if you can come up with some patterns. >Dave > >_____________________________________________________________ >Click for top financial advice. Reduce debt & save for retirement. >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/REAK6ZpP5eB59acqZsrlTbfWKHuyyeUuq80Jb2Ksujh8pCYvO02Cbq/ > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:31:45 EDT >From: IRED52@aol.com >Subject: Re: [IRL-LONGFORD] Parish Priest - Killoe >To: irl-longford@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <d53.283c5f30.3512ee51@aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >In a book that I have Killoe History of a County Longford Parish by Fr. Owen >Devaney there is a section about the parish priest Fr. John O'Reilly >(1825-1860) and the two churches he resided over were in Cullyfad and Enneybegs. >Ennybegs church is St. Mary's. Cullyfad church was St. Oliver's Plunkett's. >Father O'Reilly died in April of 1860 and was replaced by Fr. Bernard >O'Reilly. >Also listed in The Tithe Applotments (1826-1834) section of the book there >is a James Hughes in Ennybegs there is also a James listed in OHill. As Hughes >is a very popular name along with James I have no ides if either of these >could be related to you. There were many McCann's listed also but not Casola or >anything sounding like that. There were no Kelagher's listed that I could >find. >In the book by David Leahy County Longford Survivors of the Great Famine >which has an index for the Griffith's Valuation there were some Kelagher's >listed along with many Hughes and McCann's. >In another book by David Leahy County Longford and It's People which has an >index for the 1901 census I find no Kelagher's but Hughes and McCann. >Good Luck in your search hope this has been of some help. >Ellenjane > > > >**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL >Home. >(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:32:18 GMT >From: "king133@juno.com" <king133@juno.com> >Subject: [IRL-LONGFORD] Parish Priests in 1830 >To: irl-longford@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <20080319.183218.27712.1@webmail06.vgs.untd.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >Hi David; > >Thanks for the input. This is pretty interesting material. > >I have the Co. Longford Tithe Applotment Book index by Guy Rymsza and this indicates that there was only one John O'REILY esq. in County Longford at the time (abt 1830) and he was listed in the townland of Kilfinton, Civil Parish of Street. > >Questions: >...Were priests in the 1825-1835 time frame full time priests or did they have to seek support by another profession? >...Would a priest show up in the Tithe Applotments, as noted above? > >Thanks for the help, >Charlie King > > >David wrote: >Charlie, >Once again, 1826 is a long time before I was born, but: "P.P." means >Parish Priest, which means John O'Reily was the pastor and not an >assistant (not a "curate," C.P.). My understanding is that the >registry followed the priest and did not stay in the church >building/office. John O'Reily could have served several communities >("churches") within the "Parish" of Killoe. > I am speculating that the origin of this custom was in 1) hiding >records from the English who would persecute or kill a Catholic, and >2) providing a physically safe location for the records. I remember >the interesting story that someone posted about the successor priest >asking for the registry from his predecessor and the older man >demanding payment. >David > >_____________________________________________________________ >Click for free info on online masters degrees and make up to $150K/ year >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifnHYECMRQddTvDiBOKmt4q7tar9SbhC2UlJRFPn5ZoOWwnq/ > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:31:08 -0700 >From: "David A. Myers" <davidamyers@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: [IRL-LONGFORD] Dispensation and Marriage >To: irl-longford@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <E1Jc7kY-0003PC-R3@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Hi Charlie, >You came to the right guy. I not only speak Latin fluently (with >myself), but also taught it in high school (1960's). >Patricio is a guy: Patrick. >Anna is a gal. >Carolo is Charles. Was it Charles McCann? >A "casulo/casulum" is a "case" like a "legal case." >The dispensation issue would have been the legal case. If there was >"newly discovered evidence" after the initial marriage that, without >the dispensation, would have rendered the marriage invalid, they >would have had to get the dispensation and then do the marriage over again. >Soooooo... maybe there were two marriage ceremonies, 4 days >apart. Probably the second one would have been very simple, just to >"correct" the first one, and they used the first two witnesses they >could find (or, witnesses whom they could trust not to divulge the >original error. ?????) >Do you think the groom, James Hughes, could have been related to the >second witness, Bridget Hughes? and that she spilled the beans >about Bridget Kelagher being their cousin? Such intrigue ! ! >David > > >At 03:14 PM 3/19/2008, you wrote: >>Hi Dave, >>Thanks for the information on dispensations. In this particular >>case the marriage between James HUGHES and Bridget KELAGHER took >>place on 4 days prior to the dispensation. It may have been that >>after the marriage some new information turned up that made the >>dispensation necessary. >>There were two witnesses to each event: PATRICIO FEHELY and Anna >>Reynolds to the marriage and Casolo(?) McCann and Bridget Hughes to >>the dispensation. >>I will do some more 'spadework' to see if I can find out what the >>dispensation might have been. For instance, if I find that Bridget >>Hughes was some how related to a Kelagher, then this might suggest >>consanguinity. >> >>Question: Was Patricio Fehely noted above a Patricia or a >>Patrick? I and clueless when it comes to Latin. >> >>Thanks for the help, >>Charlie King >> >> >>David wrote: >>Hi Charlie, >>You're right, I think. Today dispensations are between the priest >>and the marriage tribunal and done on paper. We just make a notation >>in the record book that the dispensation was granted. The witnesses >>are for the marriage itself. I don't know why your dispensation >>needed witnesses--- but that was a long time ago. There are other >>"dispensations" available. One is from "canonical form" which would >>be for a Catholic getting married to a non-Catholic in her >>church. Another would be for having the wedding outside a church >>building (in the city park, in a hospital bed, SCUBA diving, etc). >>I suspect the only way you will know for sure is to review the entire >>record book and see if you can come up with some patterns. >>Dave >> >>_____________________________________________________________ >>Click for top financial advice. Reduce debt & save for retirement. >>http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/REAK6ZpP5eB59acqZsrlTbfWKHuyyeUuq80Jb2Ksujh8pCYvO02Cbq/ >> >> >> >>********************************** >>Longford Genealogy Website: http://www.rootsweb.com/~irllog/ >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>IRL-LONGFORD-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:01:16 -0700 >From: "David A. Myers" <davidamyers@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: [IRL-LONGFORD] Parish Priests in 1830 >To: irl-longford@rootsweb.com, irl-longford@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <E1Jc8DX-0004bZ-31@elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Hi Charlie, >Interesting questions. >First, I have never seen a priest referred to as "Esq." The Esq's >are usually attorneys (of course, he could have been both a priest >and attorney -- as I am!). Diocesean priests have no vow of poverty >and can own real estate, and sometimes have "regular" jobs (like the >French Worker Priests after WWII). There is no reason why they >would not show up in Griffith's. "Order" priests -- Benedictines, >Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits.....--- have vows of poverty and >would not ordinarily hold title or leases to real estate. It looks >to me like Fr. John O'Reily was diocesean, and it also looks like he >had a lot of turf to care for. Ordinarily the priest would live off >offerings of food and lodging from the people. > > >Now, while you and Ellenjane have your books out, could you check up >on my family? We are the CREAMERs from Abbeylara, which is a >"suburb" of Granard, Co. Longford. We found Bernard CREAMER who >married Ann KILBRIDE on 9 Jan, 1783. We also found their son, my >great great grandfather, John CREAMER, born 22 Oct. 1786. This was >in the Granard church records. But we have no records of what >happened to John's siblings, and we have nothing about where they >lived. We know nothing about the KILBRIDEs. (We also suspect that >they came from somewhere else, because there seems to be only one >family) If you check out our >website: http://www.creamers.name you will see that we >followed John from PEI to the present pretty well, but we have >nothing on the rest of the family. Thanks. David > > >At 03:32 PM 3/19/2008, king133@juno.com wrote: >>Hi David; >> >>Thanks for the input. This is pretty interesting material. >> >>I have the Co. Longford Tithe Applotment Book index by Guy Rymsza >>and this indicates that there was only one John O'REILY esq. in >>County Longford at the time (abt 1830) and he was listed in the >>townland of Kilfinton, Civil Parish of Street. >> >>Questions: >>...Were priests in the 1825-1835 time frame full time priests or did >>they have to seek support by another profession? >>...Would a priest show up in the Tithe Applotments, as noted above? >> >>Thanks for the help, >>Charlie King >> >> >>David wrote: >>Charlie, >>Once again, 1826 is a long time before I was born, but: "P.P." means >>Parish Priest, which means John O'Reily was the pastor and not an >>assistant (not a "curate," C.P.). My understanding is that the >>registry followed the priest and did not stay in the church >>building/office. John O'Reily could have served several communities >>("churches") within the "Parish" of Killoe. >> I am speculating that the origin of this custom was in 1) hiding >>records from the English who would persecute or kill a Catholic, and >>2) providing a physically safe location for the records. I remember >>the interesting story that someone posted about the successor priest >>asking for the registry from his predecessor and the older man >>demanding payment. >>David >> >>_____________________________________________________________ >>Click for free info on online masters degrees and make up to $150K/ year >>http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifnHYECMRQddTvDiBOKmt4q7tar9SbhC2UlJRFPn5ZoOWwnq/ >> >> >> >>********************************** >>Longford Genealogy Website: http://www.rootsweb.com/~irllog/ >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>IRL-LONGFORD-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 00:24:43 +0000 >From: ngray.phale@att.net >Subject: Re: [IRL-LONGFORD] Parish Priests in 1830 >To: irl-longford@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: > <032020080024.19674.47E1AECB000C4AE500004CDA22230703629B0A02D29B9B0EBF0A040E089FD2970E9D0902@att.net> > >Content-Type: text/plain > >Hi Charlie, > >Only leaseholders with tithable land--i.e., under cultivation--would appear in the Tithe Applotments, so that would not include priests, except under rather unusual circumstances. Also, O'Reily (or O'Reilly) is such a common name in that area that there must have been numerous persons named John O'Reily living in Northwest Longford in the 1830s. > >Nancy >-------------- Original message from "David A. Myers" <davidamyers@mindspring.com>: -------------- > > >> Hi Charlie, >> Interesting questions. >> First, I have never seen a priest referred to as "Esq." The Esq's >> are usually attorneys (of course, he could have been both a priest >> and attorney -- as I am!). Diocesean priests have no vow of poverty >> and can own real estate, and sometimes have "regular" jobs (like the >> French Worker Priests after WWII). There is no reason why they >> would not show up in Griffith's. "Order" priests -- Benedictines, >> Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits.....--- have vows of poverty and >> would not ordinarily hold title or leases to real estate. It looks >> to me like Fr. John O'Reily was diocesean, and it also looks like he >> had a lot of turf to care for. Ordinarily the priest would live off >> offerings of food and lodging from the people. >> >> >> Now, while you and Ellenjane have your books out, could you check up >> on my family? We are the CREAMERs from Abbeylara, which is a >> "suburb" of Granard, Co. Longford. We found Bernard CREAMER who >> married Ann KILBRIDE on 9 Jan, 1783. We also found their son, my >> great great grandfather, John CREAMER, born 22 Oct. 1786. This was >> in the Granard church records. But we have no records of what >> happened to John's siblings, and we have nothing about where they >> lived. We know nothing about the KILBRIDEs. (We also suspect that >> they came from somewhere else, because there seems to be only one >> family) If you check out our >> website: http://www.creamers.name you will see that we >> followed John from PEI to the present pretty well, but we have >> nothing on the rest of the family. Thanks. David >> >> >> At 03:32 PM 3/19/2008, king133@juno.com wrote: >> >Hi David; >> > >> >Thanks for the input. This is pretty interesting material. >> > >> >I have the Co. Longford Tithe Applotment Book index by Guy Rymsza >> >and this indicates that there was only one John O'REILY esq. in >> >County Longford at the time (abt 1830) and he was listed in the >> >townland of Kilfinton, Civil Parish of Street. >> > >> >Questions: >> >...Were priests in the 1825-1835 time frame full time priests or did >> >they have to seek support by another profession? >> >...Would a priest show up in the Tithe Applotments, as noted above? >> > >> >Thanks for the help, >> >Charlie King >> > >> > >> >David wrote: >> >Charlie, >> >Once again, 1826 is a long time before I was born, but: "P.P." means >> >Parish Priest, which means John O'Reily was the pastor and not an >> >assistant (not a "curate," C.P.). My understanding is that the >> >registry followed the priest and did not stay in the church >> >building/office. John O'Reily could have served several communities >> >("churches") within the "Parish" of Killoe. >> > I am speculating that the origin of this custom was in 1) hiding >> >records from the English who would persecute or kill a Catholic, and >> >2) providing a physically safe location for the records. I remember >> >the interesting story that someone posted about the successor priest >> >asking for the registry from his predecessor and the older man >> >demanding payment. >> >David >> > >> >_____________________________________________________________ >> >Click for free info on online masters degrees and make up to $150K/ year >> >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifnHYECMRQddTvDiBOKmt4q7tar9S >> bhC2UlJRFPn5ZoOWwnq/ >> > >> > >> > >> >********************************** >> >Longford Genealogy Website: http://www.rootsweb.com/~irllog/ >> > >> >------------------------------- >> >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >IRL-LONGFORD-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ********************************** >> Longford Genealogy Website: http://www.rootsweb.com/~irllog/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRL-LONGFORD-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > >------------------------------ > >Message: 7 >Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:20:11 -0700 >From: "conaught2" <conaught2@charter.net> >Subject: Re: [IRL-LONGFORD] Parish Priests in 1830 >To: <irl-longford@rootsweb.com> >Message-ID: <16B79121A1B540B8B6509498B8AFD635@KristichPC> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > >Dear David, > >I have not been actively researching County Longford for long, but I came >across a book I plan to order. I have no idea what family names are >mentioned other than O'Farrel and Kelly. > >"Longford Essays in County History", Raymond Gillespie & Gerard Moran, >Editors >ISBN # 0 946640 51 3 > >" A very valuable addition to our understanding of one county... any native >of the county or anybody interested in history generally will find that it >illumninates a hidden corner of the past"- Stephen Colins, The Sunday Press > >"Longford Essays in County History is the first full scale study of the >county since 1886 in which 8 leading hsitorians combine to examine the >issues of lnad, religion and politics form the 17th century to the present" > >You can find the review at: >http://www.lilliputpress.ie/listbook.html?oid=2732953 > >I came across the book while searching for Dowdalls in County Longford. >Part of the review - >"The book concludes with Documents in Longford History - valuable source >material for reader and local hsitorian- from hitherto unpublished 1682 >'Description of the County of Longford 'by Nicholas DOWDALL, to Arthur >Young's 1776 Tour... > >Some Dowdalls from County Longford immigrated to Perth, Canada in the 1800s. >There was a Father Patrick Sylvester Dowdall in Canada. I am trying to >connect the modern Dowdall families with the the 1500-1700 Dowdalls. I am >working on the canonization of Venerable James Dowdall who was a merchant >mariner, born in Drogheda and martyred in Exeter in 1599. Hopefully I will >be able to locate his descendants. The Dowdalls originated in County Louth >and then through marriage gained lands in Counties Dublin, Meath, Westmeath >and County Longford (in the 1600s) as well as a few other areas. > >An aricle about Venerable James Dowdall was published in Seanchas Ard Mhacha >(Armagh Diocesan Historical Journal) in 2004. Since so little was known >about James before the article, my goal is to get his story told. My >daughter placed the article and abbreviated article about him as well as >some other information on a website. > >www.jamesdowdallmartyr.com > >Also a great source for history are the Irish historical journals. You >never know where you will find some information about your family Thaddeus >Breen has an excellent website which lists most of the Irish historical >journals with the issue numbers and table of contents. There is a journal >for County Longford which you probably already know about but in case others >might not know - > >Teathbha- >Journal of the Longford Historical Society. Published at irregular intervals >since 1969. Current volume: Vol. 2 No 4 (Nov 1997), but a new issue is >expected this year. >National Library of Ireland call number Ir 94131 t1. >List of contents since 1969 > >Thaddeus Breen's website: >http://www.xs4all.nl/~tbreen/journals.html >Archaeological and Historical Journals >Issues with Table of Contents > >Beannachtai, >Margaret (M?iread) > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >To contact the IRL-LONGFORD list administrator, send an email to >IRL-LONGFORD-admin@rootsweb.com. > >To post a message to the IRL-LONGFORD mailing list, send an email to IRL-LONGFORD@rootsweb.com. > >__________________________________________________________ >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-LONGFORD-request@rootsweb.com >with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >email with no additional text. > > >End of IRL-LONGFORD Digest, Vol 3, Issue 29 >*******************************************