Thank you so much Kerry (and Bill Kelson too who replied to me off-list). Info both of you provided did not specifically answer my questions, but did help "jog my brain". Questions occurred to me as I read what both of you had sent and in researching these questions I have now reached some conclusions. Didn't mean to sound argumentative at all...was just floating hypothetical theorys and testing to see how they flew. Colin said something about me "trying to win some sort of argument with another third person who is not heard " and he is basically correct...but the third person is myself - just sorting through questions and trying to find an answer not really trying to "win" an argument - rather trying to scale a brick wall. If anyone is interested here are my (longwinded) conclusions: (and I stress they are my conclusions, whether they are correct or not or bear any resemblence to what actually took place w/ regard to marriages in Ireland during this time period I can't say--but would be interested in discussing (not arguing!) with anyone whose research shows information that supports/adds to OR differs from my conclusions.) CONCLUSIONs: - In Ireland in 1830-41 a male could marry at age 14 and a female at 12 without ANY parental/guardian consent, therefore, "elopements" were probably totally unnecessary and quite likely unheard of. 'Fudging' one's age too would be rather unusual (unless, heaven forbid,someone wanted to get married before the age of 12!) - In Ireland in 1830-41 a protestant could marry a catholic and such a marriage could take place in a Catholic Church (or be performed wherever a Catholic Priest wanted to hold the ceremony) AS LONG AS the couple was FIRST married by a Protestant Clergyman. - In Ireland in 1830-41 a protestant could marry a catholic and only go through ONE marriage ceremony AS LONG AS they were married by a Protestant Clergyman, needing never to set foot in a Catholic Church or to see a Catholic Priest. - In Ireland in 1830-41 a protestant could marry a catholic and only have the ceremony performed by a Catholic Priest if they could find one willing to defy the law, but if they did so the priest (if caught and convicted) faced a hefty fine of 500 pounds and such a ceremony would NOT be recognized by the civil authorities, thus putting the couple at a legal disadvantage (as if they weren't already!). Unless couple was of a particularly politically militant or scrupulously religious bent, can't see why they'd do such a thing so feel it would be improbable and unlikely. (not impossible though) - After 1871 there was no ban whatever on marriages between 'mixed' couples either by Canon/Catholic Law or by English/Irish Law. SOURCES: Report on The Law Relating to The Age of Majority. http://www.lawreform.ie/publications/data/volume3/lrc_21.html Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11611c.htm#III All Experts at http://en.allexperts.com/e/j/jo/john_keogh.htm Rootsweb IRL-WICKLOW-L Archives The Encyclopedia of Irish History & Culture pp 864-866 which is a précis of "Statutes At Large Passed In The Parliament Held In Ireland, 1310-1800 (1786-1801), volume 16, pages 685-692 http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/IRL-WICKLOW/2007-04/1175846354 -------------- Original message from "Kerry" <kerryb@austarnet.com.au>: -------------- > For the Australian side of this debate: > > If you would like to see the exact letter that Governor Macquarie wrote to > Father Therry, from Cork, Australia's first official priest on what he can > and can't do is on the link below. However, Therry did go behind the > Governors back and marry protestants and Catholics which was considered > illegal by the crown, but legal by the Catholic church, bringing Therry into > many fights and conflicts with the Governor. The persecution of Catholics in > NSW was even worse under Governor Darling and Therry was dismissed and sent > to Tasmania, Darling then wrote to the British government '.I must confess > to your Lordship that I have no desire to see anymore of the clergy of the > Catholic persuasion here' Darling then requested if there has to be clergy > let them be English not Irish. The persecution continued until the > Emancipation Act was passed in Britain, along with the support of Governor > Burke who took over in the 1830's and Therry was later re-instated. > > http://www.unisanet.unisa.edu.au/Research/Condon/CatholicLetters/18201014.htm > > Kerry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 PM > Subject: [IRL-LIMERICK] Civil (Non-religious) marriages in Ireland > circa1830-1841 > > > > Dear List, > > > > Had a reply to my original question from someone off list who indicates > > that there is evidence that couples where one party was Catholic and one > > party was Protestant were allowed to marry in the Catholic Church in > > Australia. However, no one has answered my question as to whether or not > > this was possible in the same era (1830-1841) in Ireland. Does anyone > > know? Or know where to look for such info? > > > > Also, not answered was my question as to whether it was at all possible to > > have a marriage performed outside of a church (by a Justice of the Peace, > > etc.) Again, does anyone know? > > > > And one further question regarding marriages in Ireland in this time era: > > > > If one or both of the parties had not reached their majority (I'm assuming > > it was likely age 21 at that time period) and their parents were not > > inclined to give legal consent - what did couples do in this instance? > > Here in the USA they'd have "eloped" to a location that allowed for > > marriages to take place without being age 21. For example in 1951 in the > > state of Tennessee you had to be age 18 to marry without parental consent, > > so couples would pop down to nearby Hernando Mississippi where the age was > > lower (16 I think, and no parental consent needed and no blood test for > > the license either) and tie the knot. > > > > How did one "elope" in Ireland during the 1830-1841 time period? Or am I > > making a wrong assumption here altogether---was there an age of legal > > consent to marry in Ireland during that time? If there was and there was > > no way 'round it, do you find any evidence that your ancestors "fudged" > > their ages on their baptismal certificates and/or marriage licenses to > > overcome the obstacle? > > > > Thanks for any help! > > Kathy Rhodes > > > > Researching SHANAHAN and LUBY surnames in > > Co Limerick, Co Cork and Co Tipperary > > > > > > - - - - - - - -Original Message From: Kathy Rhodes > > littlehouseantiques@att.net - - - - - - > > > > If you have a 'mixed' marriage, one spouse being Catholic and the other > > being Protestant was it possible back in 1830-1841 for the couple to be > > wed in the Catholic Church at all? Or did they have to have some sort of > > 'civil' non-religious type of wedding? Was that even possible back then? > > Could you go to some Justice of the Peace or something and be married? If > > so, is there any special place I should be looking for marriage records? > > > > Thanks! > > Kathy > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > IRL-LIMERICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1233 - Release Date: > > 19/01/2008 6:37 PM > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-LIMERICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message