Well done! There are many of us who appreciate the information and discussion. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: <littlehouseantiques@att.net> To: <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-LIMERICK] Civil (Non-religious) marriages in Irelandcirca1830-1841 > Thank you so much Kerry (and Bill Kelson too who replied to me off-list). > Info both of you provided did not specifically answer my questions, but > did help "jog my brain". Questions occurred to me as I read what both of > you had sent and in researching these questions I have now reached some > conclusions. > > Didn't mean to sound argumentative at all...was just floating hypothetical > theorys and testing to see how they flew. Colin said something about me > "trying to win some sort of argument with another third person who is not > heard " and he is basically correct...but the third person is myself - > just sorting through questions and trying to find an answer not really > trying to "win" an argument - rather trying to scale a brick wall. If > anyone is interested here are my (longwinded) conclusions: (and I stress > they are my conclusions, whether they are correct or not or bear any > resemblence to what actually took place w/ regard to marriages in Ireland > during this time period I can't say--but would be interested in discussing > (not arguing!) with anyone whose research shows information that > supports/adds to OR differs from my conclusions.) > > CONCLUSIONs: > - In Ireland in 1830-41 a male could marry at age 14 and a female at 12 > without ANY parental/guardian consent, therefore, "elopements" were > probably totally unnecessary and quite likely unheard of. 'Fudging' one's > age too would be rather unusual (unless, heaven forbid,someone wanted to > get married before the age of 12!) > > - In Ireland in 1830-41 a protestant could marry a catholic and such a > marriage could take place in a Catholic Church (or be performed wherever a > Catholic Priest wanted to hold the ceremony) AS LONG AS the couple was > FIRST married by a Protestant Clergyman. > > - In Ireland in 1830-41 a protestant could marry a catholic and only go > through ONE marriage ceremony AS LONG AS they were married by a Protestant > Clergyman, needing never to set foot in a Catholic Church or to see a > Catholic Priest. > > - In Ireland in 1830-41 a protestant could marry a catholic and only have > the ceremony performed by a Catholic Priest if they could find one willing > to defy the law, but if they did so the priest (if caught and convicted) > faced a hefty fine of 500 pounds and such a ceremony would NOT be > recognized by the civil authorities, thus putting the couple at a legal > disadvantage (as if they weren't already!). Unless couple was of a > particularly politically militant or scrupulously religious bent, can't > see why they'd do such a thing so feel it would be improbable and > unlikely. (not impossible though) > > - After 1871 there was no ban whatever on marriages between 'mixed' > couples either by Canon/Catholic Law or by English/Irish Law. > > SOURCES: > Report on The Law Relating to The Age of Majority. > http://www.lawreform.ie/publications/data/volume3/lrc_21.html > Catholic Encyclopedia > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11611c.htm#III > All Experts at > http://en.allexperts.com/e/j/jo/john_keogh.htm > Rootsweb IRL-WICKLOW-L Archives > The Encyclopedia of Irish History & Culture pp 864-866 which is a précis > of > "Statutes At Large Passed In The Parliament Held In Ireland, 1310-1800 > (1786-1801), volume 16, pages 685-692 > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/IRL-WICKLOW/2007-04/1175846354 > > -------------- Original message from "Kerry" > <kerryb@austarnet.com.au>: -------------- > > >> For the Australian side of this debate: >> >> If you would like to see the exact letter that Governor Macquarie wrote >> to >> Father Therry, from Cork, Australia's first official priest on what he >> can >> and can't do is on the link below. However, Therry did go behind the >> Governors back and marry protestants and Catholics which was considered >> illegal by the crown, but legal by the Catholic church, bringing Therry >> into >> many fights and conflicts with the Governor. The persecution of Catholics >> in >> NSW was even worse under Governor Darling and Therry was dismissed and >> sent >> to Tasmania, Darling then wrote to the British government '.I must >> confess >> to your Lordship that I have no desire to see anymore of the clergy of >> the >> Catholic persuasion here' Darling then requested if there has to be >> clergy >> let them be English not Irish. The persecution continued until the >> Emancipation Act was passed in Britain, along with the support of >> Governor >> Burke who took over in the 1830's and Therry was later re-instated. >> >> http://www.unisanet.unisa.edu.au/Research/Condon/CatholicLetters/18201014.htm >> >> Kerry >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:37 PM >> Subject: [IRL-LIMERICK] Civil (Non-religious) marriages in Ireland >> circa1830-1841 >> >> >> > Dear List, >> > >> > Had a reply to my original question from someone off list who indicates >> > that there is evidence that couples where one party was Catholic and >> > one >> > party was Protestant were allowed to marry in the Catholic Church in >> > Australia. However, no one has answered my question as to whether or >> > not >> > this was possible in the same era (1830-1841) in Ireland. Does anyone >> > know? Or know where to look for such info? >> > >> > Also, not answered was my question as to whether it was at all possible >> > to >> > have a marriage performed outside of a church (by a Justice of the >> > Peace, >> > etc.) Again, does anyone know? >> > >> > And one further question regarding marriages in Ireland in this time >> > era: >> > >> > If one or both of the parties had not reached their majority (I'm >> > assuming >> > it was likely age 21 at that time period) and their parents were not >> > inclined to give legal consent - what did couples do in this instance? >> > Here in the USA they'd have "eloped" to a location that allowed for >> > marriages to take place without being age 21. For example in 1951 in >> > the >> > state of Tennessee you had to be age 18 to marry without parental >> > consent, >> > so couples would pop down to nearby Hernando Mississippi where the age >> > was >> > lower (16 I think, and no parental consent needed and no blood test for >> > the license either) and tie the knot. >> > >> > How did one "elope" in Ireland during the 1830-1841 time period? Or am >> > I >> > making a wrong assumption here altogether---was there an age of legal >> > consent to marry in Ireland during that time? If there was and there >> > was >> > no way 'round it, do you find any evidence that your ancestors "fudged" >> > their ages on their baptismal certificates and/or marriage licenses to >> > overcome the obstacle? >> > >> > Thanks for any help! >> > Kathy Rhodes >> > >> > Researching SHANAHAN and LUBY surnames in >> > Co Limerick, Co Cork and Co Tipperary >> > >> > >> > - - - - - - - -Original Message From: Kathy Rhodes >> > littlehouseantiques@att.net - - - - - - >> > >> > If you have a 'mixed' marriage, one spouse being Catholic and the other >> > being Protestant was it possible back in 1830-1841 for the couple to be >> > wed in the Catholic Church at all? Or did they have to have some sort >> > of >> > 'civil' non-religious type of wedding? Was that even possible back >> > then? >> > Could you go to some Justice of the Peace or something and be married? >> > If >> > so, is there any special place I should be looking for marriage >> > records? >> > >> > Thanks! >> > Kathy >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > IRL-LIMERICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1233 - Release Date: >> > 19/01/2008 6:37 PM >> > >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRL-LIMERICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-LIMERICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >