I do want to know where he lived and where his place of business was located We plan on going back to Ireland next year and I would like to find the house if possible. Marie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geralyn Barry" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-LIMERICK] business in Ballingarry > Hi again Marie. So, then, if you know John Meehan was a grocer (the kind > of business he had), what further information are you looking for? Why do > you want a list of businesses? Do you want to know how many other grocers > there were in Ballingarry? Or are you looking for the address of his > business? Do you want to know exactly where he lived? Or something else? > You might be able to answer some of these questions without finding a list > of businesses from the 1860s, which could be a hard thing to find. > > Geralyn Wood Barry in Oregon > > On 1/9/2011 4:19 PM, Marie Goforth-Allen wrote: >> I am looking for John O'Sullivan Meehan. On the birth records of his >> children, he is listed as a grocer. >> Thank you so much, Geralyn, for answering, it has been some time since I >> heard from you.If I do find a source for lists, I will let you know. >> Marie > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3369 - Release Date: 01/09/11 07:34:00

Marie, you say you want to know where in Ballingarry John Meehan lived and had his grocery in the 1860s. I believe I have an answer for you. This is a job for valuation revision lists and valuation maps! I am replying to the list rather than to Marie personally because Marie's question highlights the tools available for learning more about *exactly* where your family lived in Ireland. If you already know the place (town or townland or perhaps just the parish) where your family lived anytime during the period from slightly before Griffith's Valuation into the 1900s, then "other" valuation records *might* help you. They might help you even if you know a location but have not found your family in Griffith's Valuation (the most well-known of the valuation records). First, some background information. Valuation (tax) records in Ireland did not begin or end with Griffith's Valuation. Griffith's Valuation is merely one frozen frame in the "movie" of valuation records. If you don't look at the entire movie, you won't know the story. Several different indexes to Griffith's Valuation exist, and researchers can now access the images online and on microfilm. "Other" valuation records for Ireland also exist and are available on microfilm from the Family History Library. But these "other" records are not indexed and can be difficult to use. Although they are less familiar than Griffith's Valuation to people tracing their families in Ireland, these "other" records can actually be much more useful and revealing, especially if you are able to trace a property (or a family) across time through the entire series of valuation records available. Valuation records from just before Griffith's - the manuscript valuation books (the house, field, tenure, perambulation and quarto books) - were done in preparation for the printed version of the valuation, which is commonly called as Griffith's Valuation. Taxes didn't end with Griffith's Valuation. After Griffith's Valuation, the valuation revision lists (aka canceled books) take the valuation of property in Ireland forward all the way to current times. "Other" valuation records can be messy, with constant revisions to property from a period just before Griffith's Valuation down to now. If you want to get an idea of what was happening in the area where your family lived, take a look at the valuation revision lists from there. Valuation records are not "genealogy records", but they can be useful for genealogy research to the extent (1) that they reflect events in people's lives (2) that you can identify the people as "yours" and (3) that you can interpret the records in a meaningful way. Moreover, these records can be useful by giving you clues that lead to additional records for your family. Or they can help you verify that records you already have are all for the same family - yours. Ongoing valuation records are *much* messier than Griffith's Valuation, which is just a snapshot at one point in time - all nice and neat and in printed form, with nothing crossed out and no obscure unreadable clues lurking in the margins. But in all the mess of manuscript valuation books and valuation revision lists can be many clues about your family, if you take to time to examine them. This email talks about the valuation records that came after Griffith's Valuation - the valuation revision lists (aka canceled books) - as they apply to Marie's Meehan family that lived in Ballingarry Town. Marie knows that her Meehan family was in Ballingarry Town because she has civil registration birth records for Meehan children. Those records indicate that the father John Meehan was a "shopkeeper" and "grocer" in Ballingarry Town - at least during the period 1865 - 1871. In 1875, when his son Patrick Meehan was born in Ballingarry, John Meehan's occupation was different - laborer. The name William Barry also surfaces in this story, which makes it interesting for me too, since I am trying to figure out which Barrys in that part of Limerick are related to my husband's family. I'm not sure which William Barry this is - if any - among the men of that name I have traced in the area. Marie and I have corresponded in the past because Marie's Meehan family in Illinois employed Barrys who came from this same part of Limerick... and my husband's Barrys (from this part of Limerick) also lived in Illinois, although not in the same part of Illinois as Marie's Meehans. Because of these similarities, Marie and I have looked for a connection between our families. So far, we have not found one. Of course, that does not mean there wasn't one - just that we have not found it. Or maybe there is nothing to find - just coincidences and common surnames. The more records we can gather, the more likely we are to eventually figure out something. I have now spent quite a few hours studying in detail the valuation revision lists and valuation maps for Ballingarry. Marie, I think I can tell you exactly where John Meehan's place was in Ballingarry and what it consisted of between 1865 and the early 1870s - the time period when he is listed as a shopkeeper or grocer in birth records for his children. Even better, I can provide you with a link to current photos of the property. Beginning in 1865, John Meehan was listed as the occupier at what was called No. 4 Main Street. This is on the west side of Main Street, town of Ballingarry and townland of Knightstreet. No. 4 is the corner lot on the SW corner of the intersection where Turret Street becomes Main Street. What used to be called New Road (on the old OS map, not sure if it's still called that) comes into the intersection from the NE, and another road (called Echo Lane and "The Mall" on the old OS map) comes into the intersection from the WNW. A little stream cuts across the intersection East-West at this point. Today, Condron's Bridge House (pub) is right on the other corner - the SE corner, across Main Street from No. 4 - and the Church of Ireland church and burial ground are also on the SE corner of that same intersection, behind Condron's. If you have been to Ballingarry before, perhaps you know where this is. That part of Main Street is now the R518 and the east-west road is a feeder road to the R519, which crosses the R518 in Ballingarry town but a bit more to the south. Here is a link to the Ordnance Survey of Ireland map website: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,541293,636243,7 The map coordinates I have given you above are for an OSI map centered on the correct house on the corner. But in order to see any detail, you will probably need to use the "zoom in" and "zoom out" features in the "box" in the upper right of the screen. Or you can use the sliding magnification bar at the left. You need to get down to almost the largest magnification you can to see detail. You should also toggle between the different map series: "street map" is the default setting I think, and is very useful for seeing current detail and comparing to the historic 6" (old OS map), which you should also look at. You should also look at Ortho 2005 or 2000, which show aerial views. Comparing these maps one to the other can be informative. Some of the maps change at different levels of magnification, so you should investigate that also. If your internet connection is slow, it might take a while for the maps to load. Be patient. This is an extremely useful website for looking at official OSI maps of Ireland. The OSI has provided (for free) a wonderful tool for genealogists! You can also see the house itself on Google maps Street View - it is a white house with 2 red doors on the Main Street side and the name "QUAID" in red letters above the second door from the corner. Valuation revision lists show that Michael Quaid Jr took over the property from Patrick Sheahan in 1955 (it was then described as a "licensed house"), so that might be why it says "QUAID" over the door. Some people in Ballingarry might be able to tell you more about the house from that era. Here is the link: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Ballingarry,+Ireland&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=53.961216,134.560547&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Ballingarry,+County+Limerick,+Ireland&ll=52.474722,-8.86391&spn=0.001287,0.005128&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=52.474602,-8.863941&panoid=nLAO-H0ma7KT9mLnNsk0NQ&cbp=12,205.39,,0,-1.51 <http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Ballingarry,+Ireland&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=53.961216,134.560547&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Ballingarry,+County+Limerick,+Ireland&ll=52.474722,-8.86391&spn=0.001287,0.005128&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=52.474602,-8.863941&panoid=nLAO-H0ma7KT9mLnNsk0NQ&cbp=12,205.39,,0,-1.51> Once you learn to use it, you can "drive" up and down the streets and explore the town of Ballingarry with Google maps Street View. These pictures for Ireland have just been added in the last 6 months. My husband and I had great fun over the Christmas holidays "traveling" around Ireland via Google maps Street View, driving up and down all the little country roads in southern Limerick, "visiting" all the places where Barrys and their relatives lived. Our experience is that Google maps Street View is faster and crashes less with the Firefox browser than with Chrome... don't know about Internet Explorer. And here is the Barry connection: William Barry was previously listed as occupier of No. 4 Main Street! But his name was struck through, and John Meehan's name written in place of Barry's as occupier. This happened about 1865 according to the notes in the "Observations" column of the valuation revision list from that time. So 1865 is about when John Meehan first took over the property. The immediate lessor on the property then was G. T. Peacocke, which was not changed in 1865. [That is Goodricke T. Peacocke, who was immediate lessor for (and actually owned "in fee") many properties in the area.] The occupier is simply the person responsible for paying the tax on the property, while the immediate lessor is the person from whom the occupier leased the property. The immediate lessor did not necessarily own the property, but rather could have been a middleman who in turn leased from another middleman or from the owner. The property had been "In Chancery" at the time of Griffith's Valuation, and the occupier then was Mary Copps, whose name can be seen on other properties in Ballingarry town in the later valuation revision lists. My examination of valuation records suggests that the occupiers at No. 4 Main Street changed somewhat frequently. John Meehan seems to have been there perhaps 9 years. The property at No. 4 Main Street consisted of a house, office (or offices) [an office is an outbuilding of some kind, be it shed, pig sty or barn - something other than a dwelling] & garden (for growing food). The area of the property was 0 0 36 [A R P - acres roods perches] - so it was 36 perches. One perch contains about 30 square yards, which is an area equivalent to 6 yds by 5 yds or 3 yds by 10 yds, etc. There are 40 perches in a rood, and 4 roods in a statute acre. So this area was almost 1/4 acre in size - quite large compared to the gardens behind the other houses in that area. The garden took up the entire open area in back of No. 4 Main and No. 5 Main (the next house going south), plus the area behind all the houses in the first block going along Echo Lane to the west. [This is not obvious on any of the maps to which I have given you links, but it can be seen on the Town Plan of Ballingarry to which I refer later below.] The land was listed with a rateable annual valuation of 10 shillings, and the buildings £ 8 [crossed out to £ 7 in 1865, with a ? written above it]. So the total rateable annual valuation for the entire property was £ 8 10 shillings, crossed out to £ 7 10 shillings in 1865. The source for all this information is FHL 0846404 [Valuation lists for Limerick County, Croom Rural District, 1860-1947, v. 4 Electoral division of Ballingarry]. This film includes canceled valuation books for Ballingarry E.D. from many different years, dating from after Griffith's Valuation down to about 1970 for Ballingarry E.D. (that is the date of the last canceled book, despite what it says in the FHL catalog listing). You can follow the valuation of a property forward in time from just after Griffith's Valuation all the way to modern times in these canceled books. These books are available for many parts of Ireland, but you will need to know the electoral division to figure out which FHL film to look at. The entry I mentioned above (William Barry crossed out to John Meehan, revision dated 1865) is in the book that was canceled in 1869, on p. 60. Technical note: No. 4 Main Street actually corresponds to Lot 15 4 in the valuation lists. No. 4 through No. 64 Main Street are all listed with 15 out in front in valuation records. You can see this in Griffith's Valuation, and there are notes in the revision lists about this. (The Town Plan uses the house numbers.) The other side of Main Street (the east side) was in a different townland - Cloontemple - as was the other side of Echo Lane (the north side). It is my experience that towns in Ireland often sit at the intersection of several townlands, so if you want to search valuation records for an entire town, you must make sure you look in all the townlands or you won't see the entire town. Valuation maps can be helpful there. The house numbers in the valuation books are correlated with the old Ordnance Survey map of the Town Plan of Ballingarry town [I accessed this map at Irish Origins, a subscription website I use often]. The Town Plan of Ballingarry shows in great detail the "garden" of No. 4 Main Street. You can also see an extension was made to the corner house (No. 4) in the direction of the next house west of it (along Echo Lane). You can see this addition on the house itself, on Google maps Street View. The entry doors to the house at No. 4 Main are located on Main Street, and the extension is visible along the side street, Echo Lane. I followed the property forward in time in further canceled books [same FHL film], and found that in 1874, John Meehan's name was replaced at No. 4 Main Street by Denis McCarthy. There was rapid turnover in property in Ballingarry Town at this time, and McCarthy's name was then replaced by John Butler as occupier, and Peacocke's name was replaced as immediate lessor by Denis McCarthy. So McCarthy the occupier became McCarthy the immediate lessor: he seems to have been subletting to Butler. This happened about 1877-1879. John Meehan's name is never connected with this property again in valuation records. The loss of this property seems to coincide with a change in status for John Meehan, from grocer or shop-keeper to "laborer", which is the occupation given on the birth record for his son Patrick in 1875. About this same time, the name John Meehan surfaces in the canceled books as occupier of another property in Ballingarry Town. It was a house only, No. 29 Sparr Street in Ballingarry Town, but in the townland of Cloontemple. If you continue south on Main Street from No. 4 Main Street, the street eventually becomes Sparr Street. No. 29 Sparr Street was located on the east side of Sparr at the south end of town. It is the second house to the last of the row houses on that side of the street, at least on the old OS town plan. Since this is not a corner property, and not many houses still survive in that part of town, it is hard to say where the house was located. It seems to me that the house is no longer there. The "Sports Ground" is now in back of where this house was, and the area where the house once stood looks somewhat empty on recent aerial maps [see http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,541629,635891,7 - toggle between Ortho 2005 or 2000, street map and historic 6" (old OS map) ]. You can also check out the Google maps Street View. It would take a lot more comparison of valuation records with maps over the years for this property to determine exactly where it was, but I am pretty sure it is gone. John Meehan's name first appears as occupier on the property at No. 29 Sparr Street about 1877-1879, when Anne Connell's name was struck out. About the same time, the name of the immediate lessor also changed - from John Hogan to Mrs. Hayes. The rateable annual valuation on the house was 15 shillings - substantially less than the 7 or 8 pound value of the "house and office" at No. 4 Main. This information appears in the valuation book marked "Cancelled 1882" - same FHL film as above. John Meehan only appears on the Sparr Street property in one more book, the next later one, which shows no cancellation date, but in which the years 1884, 1885, 1889 appear in the Observations column as dates of revisions. This time the property is called 29ab, and a garden (of area 1 rood) has been added to the house in the description of the property, and the valuation increased by the amount listed for the land (10 shillings). In this same entry, John Meehan's name is then struck out as occupier and replaced by Patrick Kelly. Also, the name of Mrs. Hayes as immediate lessor was struck out and replaced by Reps E Atkinson (which in turn was replaced by Revd. R. D. Atkinson). All these revisions took place in 1885, 1887 and 1889. If I had to guess, I would say that Meehan's name might have been struck out and replaced in 1889. The revisions were done in color-coded inks, but the microfilms of the records are, of course, black and white! This makes it difficult to pair a particular revision with the date given in the "Obervations" column. It is sometimes impossible to do so, even with careful scrutiny. If you are really interested in these details, the next step would be to look at in person (in Ireland) or order a color version of the valuation map from the valuation office in Ireland. They have a website, where you can also search current valuation information, at http://www.valoff.ie/search/search.asp . Just like many places in the US have property tax information online, so does Ireland. I suggest you select the county, then enter the name of a townland only and see what you get. Your spelling must match the spelling used on the website for the townland! In many cases, you can recognize the same lots today that appeared in Griffith's Valuation over 150 years ago... The valuation revision lists (canceled books) are very tedious to search through. FHL 0846404 contains over 800 pages of valuation revision lists - just for Ballingarry E.D. - of which the majority are for two places within the E.D. - Ballingarry town and the townland of Common (near Knockfierna), which contains many small rural lots with constantly changing occupiers and therefore, many revisions. John Meehan might appear again somewhere else in Ballingarry E.D., but I have not found him yet. (I will tell you when I find something else, Marie.) However, the next later book [with "Observations" column dates of 1894, 1895, 1904, 1905] shows a Patrick (not John) Meehan as one of 5 consecutive occupiers of 51ab Sparr Street, Townland of Cloontemple, Town of Ballingarry. His name appears in the middle of the list (his name struck through), so perhaps he is also the Patrick Meehan who also appears in the same canceled book at another property in Ballingarry, at Lot 6a on Downs Road in the Townland of Knightstreet. He is the last in a series of 4 consecutive occupiers listed on that property whose names were, in turn, struck out in several revisions made between 1891 and 1902. This Patrick Meehan also appears in the 1901 census of Ireland: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000979782/ 1901 census shows Patrick Meehan in dwelling 164 - 2 rooms, 3 people http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Ballingarry/Ballingarry_Village/1487889/ Residents of a house 164 in Ballingarry Village (Ballingarry, Limerick) Surname Forename Age Sex Relation to head Religion Birthplace Occupation Literacy Irish Language Marital Status Specified Illnesses Meehan Patrick 60 Male Head of Family Roman Catholic Co Limerick Tin Smith Cannot read or write - Married - Meehan Johannah 40 Female Wife Roman Catholic Co Limerick Domestic Servant Cannot read or write - Married - Meehan Bridget 12 Female Niece Roman Catholic Co Limerick Scholar Read and write - Not Married - The index to the 1911 census shows no Meehan in Ballingarry town, and I cannot identify Patrick in any other 1911 census entry. Marie, do you know this Patrick Meehan the tinsmith, perhaps born around 1841 and married to Johannah? I believe you once told me that John Meehan emigrated to the US at some point, after some of his children had already emigrated. Do these dates of disappearance from Ballingarry records make sense for Patrick (if you know him) and for John Meehan? As you can all see from this example, there is a lot you can learn from valuation revision lists, combined with maps! Comment: On larger rural (farm) properties, when an occupier's name is struck out and replaced by another name, it is worth usually pursuing whether there is some connection between the person whose name was crossed out and the person replacing him - at least that is my experience. In towns (like Ballingarry), names were constantly being struck through and replaced, as people moved into and out of town and around within the town according to their changing circumstances. I think there is less likelihood of there being any connection between people who occupied the same house consecutively, especially in a town where the frequent (as shown by the changes in occupiers and immediate lessors in the valuation revision lists in this case). So perhaps there is no connection whatsoever between William Barry and John Meehan or between John Meehan and any of the other people whose names appeared over the years as occupiers at No. 4 Main Street, Ballingarry. It is clear to me from the valuation revision lists that there was great turnover in occupiers in the late 1800s in Ballingarry Town. In fact, in the later 1880s and into the early 1900s, I see many houses in Ballingarry Town listed as "ruins" or "vacant". Many properties were struck out entirely, which usually means property was being consolidated into larger lots. On other properties, no names replaced the names struck out. So Ballingarry Town must have been going through some hard times then... Regards, Geralyn Wood Barry in Oregon, USA On 1/9/2011 6:35 PM, Marie Goforth-Allen wrote: > I do want to know where he lived and where his place of business was located > We plan on going back to Ireland next year and I would like to find the > house if possible. > Marie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geralyn Barry"<[email protected]> > To:<[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 7:07 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-LIMERICK] business in Ballingarry > >> Hi again Marie. So, then, if you know John Meehan was a grocer (the kind >> of business he had), what further information are you looking for? Why do >> you want a list of businesses? Do you want to know how many other grocers >> there were in Ballingarry? Or are you looking for the address of his >> business? Do you want to know exactly where he lived? Or something else? >> You might be able to answer some of these questions without finding a list >> of businesses from the 1860s, which could be a hard thing to find. >> >> Geralyn Wood Barry in Oregon >> >> On 1/9/2011 4:19 PM, Marie Goforth-Allen wrote: >>> I am looking for John O'Sullivan Meehan. On the birth records of his >>> children, he is listed as a grocer. >>> Thank you so much, Geralyn, for answering, it has been some time since I >>> heard from you.If I do find a source for lists, I will let you know. >>> Marie >>