Colleagues The magnificent efforts of the contributors mean that there are now over 95,000 records in the database. Search then using the following link: http://members.pcug.org.au/~nickred/deeds/search_index.html -- Regards Nick My Sites My home <http://members.iinet.net.au/%7Enickred/> My newspaper extracts <http://members.iinet.net.au/%7Enickred/newspaper/index.html> Registry of Deeds Index Project <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/%7Eregistryofdeeds/index.html> Managed Sites Irish Genealogical Research Society <http://www.igrsoc.org/index.htm> Majura tennis Club <http://members.iinet.net.au/%7Enickred/majuratennis/>

Sorry, Patricia, but I do not have valuation revision lists for the townlands of Ballintober (DED Griston) or Corderry (DED Clonbeg). If you will be getting the films through the FHL, the film numbers seem to be: FHL 855421 - Valuation lists for Tipperary County, Tipperary Rural District,1856-1967; v. 7 Electoral division: Cloubeg [I think this is a typo in the FHL catalog and should be Clonbeg] FHL 850375 - Valuation lists for Limerick County, Kilmallock Rural District, 1858-1961; v. 19-20 Electoral division: Darragh Griston [Griston is probably v. 20] I highly recommend that you follow the property forward and backward in time. Good luck with it! Regards, Geralyn Wood Barry in Oregon On 6/14/2012 8:51 AM, Patricia Petrizzo wrote: > First, let me thank everyone for their detailed analysis of these records. The reason for my question was exactly what you all addressed...whether or not I should start looking into land and valuation records. Although I had looked at all pages of the censuses (very fascinating to analyze the property and compare with the rest of the townland!), I had not noticed the different columns for head of household and landholder. So I thank you for reminding me to read everything!!! > > Geralynn, you offered a lookup so I will take you up on that. Do you have info on Michael Cronin/Cronan in Ballintubber townland, CP Darragh, PLU Kilmallock, co. Limerick OR Patrick Daly, Corderry townland, CP Clonbeg, PLU Tipperary, co. Tipperary. Michael was listed as the landholder in 1901 and his son-in-law, Laurence Quirke, in 1911 (I'm guessing it was the same property). Patrick Daly was deceased by 1901 but his widow, Margaret, was the landholder in 1901; in 1911 it is her son-in-law, Edmond Crowe. From what I've learned here, it seems I will need to check land records so thank you again!! Pat >

First, let me thank everyone for their detailed analysis of these records. The reason for my question was exactly what you all addressed...whether or not I should start looking into land and valuation records. Although I had looked at all pages of the censuses (very fascinating to analyze the property and compare with the rest of the townland!), I had not noticed the different columns for head of household and landholder. So I thank you for reminding me to read everything!!! Geralynn, you offered a lookup so I will take you up on that. Do you have info on Michael Cronin/Cronan in Ballintubber townland, CP Darragh, PLU Kilmallock, co. Limerick OR Patrick Daly, Corderry townland, CP Clonbeg, PLU Tipperary, co. Tipperary. Michael was listed as the landholder in 1901 and his son-in-law, Laurence Quirke, in 1911 (I'm guessing it was the same property). Patrick Daly was deceased by 1901 but his widow, Margaret, was the landholder in 1901; in 1911 it is her son-in-law, Edmond Crowe. From what I've learned here, it seems I will need to check land records so thank you again!! Pat

Listers Another consideration here is the land reforms that occurred between the time of Griffith Valuation in 1840s and 1850s, and the first available census in 1901. Many many properties let to tenant farmer families in Griffith Valuation were held freehold by the same families by 1900. Regards Nick http://members.iinet.net.au/~nickred/ http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~registryofdeeds/index.html

Most of my Irish valuation research has been in somewhat rural areas or in villages and smaller towns in the counties of Limerick, Laois and Tipperary - not in densely populated areas like Dublin. So I can't say much about the order of houses in census records compared to the order in valuation records for a large city like Dublin. I would guess that in a city, there is really only one way to walk (down the street), no matter why (census or valuation). But I have found in rural areas that the order in valuation records does not always match the order in census records exactly. The order is often in rough agreement in both sets, but not necessarily. Also, in rural areas there were many parcels of land that did not have inhabited houses in 1901 and 1911, but were just "land" or "bog" so do not appear in census records. And there were so many changes recorded in some townlands in the period from 1901 to 1911 and later that it is hard to say exactly what the order is in a particular year, like 1901 or 1911! The new valuation book might start out in the proper order (1, 2, 3, etc.). But after all the crossings out and renumbering and other changes were recorded, the numbering of the lots might be all out of order (3, 1, 10, etc.) by the time that book was cancelled and a new one begun. There are often notes like "house down", "added to lot 10", etc. These notes can help you follow the changes, but it can be very messy and confusing research (especially using black and white microfilm, since the changes were color-coded in the originals). [We are talking here about revisions of valuation records aka "cancelled books" - the valuation (tax) records that continue after the more familiar Griffith's Valuation. Many of these later valuation records are available on microfilm (black and white) from the Family History Library. Some continue as late as the 1930s to 1950s.] I have also found there was often a time lag in updating valuation information. The censuses were current information and reflected exactly who was living in a house on given dates in 1901 and 1911. But corresponding valuation information was sometime not updated until a few years after changes had occurred. I recall one case where I expected to find a particular family in a certain townland in the 1901 census because valuation records for that property showed that someone else took over the property from them a few years later (1906 or so). But they were not there in 1901 - the family who took over later was there already. I eventually found the family I was looking for: they had already emigrated in the 1890s and were in the 1900 US census. So clearly, they were not in Ireland in 1901! But valuation records for the property were not updated until several years later, which made it look like "my" family should have been there in 1901. You might argue that perhaps they continued to pay taxes on that property for 10 years after they had left and after someone else was living there, but somehow I don't think so... I have noticed the same thing happened when people died, and a spouse or child of the deceased took over the property: the change to a new occupier was sometimes not noted in valuation records until several years later. Sometimes when property changed hands, a parcel of land was broken apart into smaller holdings or consolidated with other holdings into larger lots. These new lot(s) would then be renumbered. So lot 3 in a particular townland in one valuation book might not be lot 3 in the valuation book from an earlier or later year - you have to follow the lot description and size as well as the occupier's name. This renumbering of lots might mean that the lots with inhabited houses (which would appear in census records) could appear in a different order from year to year even within valuation records. Re: Nick Reddan's comment about land reform and tenant purchase of land... I don't have my usual references handy at the moment, but there were several Land Purchase Acts passed over time, each having different terms for the seller and the buyer. In a lot of the rural areas in Limerick and north Cork that I look at, much of the change in ownership (former tenants becoming owners "In Fee LAP", as is written in valuation records - by Land Act Purchase) took place after 1901. Much of it took place even later - after 1911. I have some references in my files to purchases (LAP) as late as the 1920s. In my research, I haven't see many small tenants purchasing until after 1903. I seem to recall that particularly advantageous terms for payment by the purchaser were offered under some of these later Land Acts. I have seen only a few changes in land tenure take place under the acts before 1901. One in particular that I recall researching was a somewhat substantial farmer buying 50+ acres under one of the earlier acts (1880s). I have noticed that many parcels within a small geographical area have the same "In Fee LAP" date in valuation revision records. I think this is probably because a large landholder in the area finally sold his property, and after all the necessary government procedures, the land was divided up into new lots which then passed into the hands of all the new owners at about the same time. For a brief overview of the Land Acts, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Land_Acts . Geralyn Wood Barry On 6/13/2012 1:02 PM, Christina Hunt wrote: > Geralyn, > Did you find that the census follows the same order as the Valuations? I worked on transcribing some later valuations for an area in Dublin and was able to go down the lines looking at the 1901 census to compare who was in the house. > Have you found the census to follow the same pattern as the valuations as far as the order they are listed? > > Just curious. > Chris > >

Geralyn, Did you find that the census follows the same order as the Valuations? I worked on transcribing some later valuations for an area in Dublin and was able to go down the lines looking at the 1901 census to compare who was in the house. Have you found the census to follow the same pattern as the valuations as far as the order they are listed? Just curious. Chris

Geralyn, Not wanting to commit myself to my own answer I put "I would read it". As you say the land could still be leased. But it is the only thing I see in the census that gives any info on who the property belongs to. Christina Geralyn Barry wrote: > Christina, I hate to complicate your answer, which is a good idea in theory. I used to think that was the case myself... > > However, I have since compared many census records with land valuation records and have found that Irish census records often list as the landholder the person who appears in the census when I know that person does not "own" the property. I conclude from this that the term landholder in Irish census records was thought to mean "occupier" (person who paid the tax) rather than immediate lessor or actual owner of the property. At least this seems to be the case for most of the census records I have compared with valuation records - probably several hundred cases at least. > > My conclusion from all this is that if the person in the census is *not* listed as the landholder on Form B1 (someone else is listed instead), then he is probably a tenant of some kind. <snip>

Yes, Christina, I agree that is the only possible place on the Irish census itself that might answer questions about ownership of property. I just wanted to add a warning about interpreting what appears there, based on my own research comparing census information and valuation records for many families. It's not always clear how the person recording the census information actually interpreted the questions on the census. I think everyone who finds a family of interest in the Irish census should look at the "other" pages associated with that census listing, and take a look around the area too. After all, the information is there online, and looking is free! This "other" census information can sometimes be very revealing. It may even overturn a researcher's assumptions about which house in a townland the family lived in or what the family's occupation was. The description of a house & its outbuildings - number of rooms, nature of outbuildings, quality, etc. - can tell you more about how your family lived, beyond their names and ages. In a more unusual example, I found an instance where the "big house" in a townland was vacant at the time the census was taken - not even a caretaker in residence in the house itself, so no one enumerated in that house in the census. The house is not mentioned on the form that contains people's names, ages, etc. I initially jumped to the conclusion that one of the families listed in the census in that townland had to be living in that big house, but when I probed the other online census forms, I discovered I was wrong. The owners (or lessors) in such cases (large rural properties) sometimes had more than one dwelling place, e.g., a house in Dublin or in Limerick City or England even, and a more rural property with a big house. In my case, the family I expected to find in the "big house" was actually enumerated in Dublin (where the head of the household had a business at the time). No one was enumerated in their house in the country. However, tenants in other houses on their property were enumerated since those smaller houses were occupied. I never would have learned that had I not looked at the house and outbuilding descriptions... Comparison with valuation records then confirmed what I had found in the census. Geralyn Wood Barry in Oregon On 6/13/2012 11:31 AM, Christina Hunt wrote: > Geralyn, > Not wanting to commit myself to my own answer I put "I would read it". > As you say the land could still be leased. > But it is the only thing I see in the census that gives any info on who the property belongs to. > Christina > > Geralyn Barry wrote: >> Christina, I hate to complicate your answer, which is a good idea in theory. I used to think that was the case myself... >> >> However, I have since compared many census records with land valuation records and have found that Irish census records often list as the landholder the person who appears in the census when I know that person does not "own" the property. I conclude from this that the term landholder in Irish census records was thought to mean "occupier" (person who paid the tax) rather than immediate lessor or actual owner of the property. At least this seems to be the case for most of the census records I have compared with valuation records - probably several hundred cases at least. >> >> My conclusion from all this is > that if the person in the census is *not* listed as the landholder on Form B1 (someone else is listed instead), then he is probably a tenant of some kind. > <snip> > >

Christina, I hate to complicate your answer, which is a good idea in theory. I used to think that was the case myself... However, I have since compared many census records with land valuation records and have found that Irish census records often list as the landholder the person who appears in the census when I know that person does not "own" the property. I conclude from this that the term landholder in Irish census records was thought to mean "occupier" (person who paid the tax) rather than immediate lessor or actual owner of the property. At least this seems to be the case for most of the census records I have compared with valuation records - probably several hundred cases at least. My conclusion from all this is that if the person in the census is *not* listed as the landholder on Form B1 (someone else is listed instead), then he is probably a tenant of some kind. But if the person in the census *is* the same as "landholder" on Form B1, then he could be the occupier or he could be the owner. I think it is necessary in such a case to consult valuation revision lists to really determine which is true. I have found many instances where valuation records clearly show that the property was acquired by a family listed in census records as "landholder" much later than 1901 or 1911. What is the townland in question here? Perhaps I happen to have made copies of valuation revision lists for it and can check... Geralyn Wood Barry in Oregon On 6/13/2012 5:11 AM, Christina Hunt wrote: > Pat, > Look at Form B1 - House and Building return. The last column on the right asks > who the Landholder is. The column to the left of this is Head of family. If the > names are the same in both columns, I would read it that the resident is the > owner. If not the person on the right is the landowner. > > Christina > > irl-limerick-request@rootsweb.com wrote: >> Thanks to all who helped me find Catherine Daly's townland; I was able to find her father (perhaps?) in Griffiths. New question...is there anyway to tell on 1901 and 1911 censuses if the head of household owns or rents the farm? >> >> Pat >

Pat, Look at Form B1 - House and Building return. The last column on the right asks who the Landholder is. The column to the left of this is Head of family. If the names are the same in both columns, I would read it that the resident is the owner. If not the person on the right is the landowner. Christina irl-limerick-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > Thanks to all who helped me find Catherine Daly's townland; I was able to find her father (perhaps?) in Griffiths. New question...is there anyway to tell on 1901 and 1911 censuses if the head of household owns or rents the farm? > > Pat

Thanks to all who helped me find Catherine Daly's townland; I was able to find her father (perhaps?) in Griffiths. New question...is there anyway to tell on 1901 and 1911 censuses if the head of household owns or rents the farm? Pat

Many thanks Roland, I'll keep searching. Joan From: skepglen@hotmail.com Hello Joan in NSW! I didn't know that John Young or the other names you need, Sorry! Roland Young

Hello Chris: Noted your comment about the name Cornelius regarding Frawley family. My McAuliffe family came out of the McCarthy Clan in Cork in 1214. My g-g-grandparents Daniel & Catherine(Curtin) McAuliffe were married in Mahoonagh on July 30, 1813. My understanding from a source in Cork claims the family earlier had split into two branches to better identify the lines. The Connie-David line and the Jerry-Florie line. The Connie was short for Cornelius, Jerry short for Jeremiah and Florie short for Florence, which was a man's name at that time. It was unknown whether the two joined names were father & son or brothers. At the time of the children's births, starting in 1816, including my g-grandad's in 1830, the family lived at Newcastle West, Limerick, where the known four were baptized. Since there was eleven years between the first two and last two, we wonder if there were more in a different location. I wonder if anyone has any records of the family in Mahoonagh. I seem to be the onlly person researching this line. Andy McAuliffe, Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

Hi Andy and others, I have some limited information for Frawley from Limerick (Clare?) connected to my Mason line. I had posted at the irl-clare rootsweb list last year but, would be willing to post again if anyone thinks they might have a connection to these Chicago Frawleys. Judie Mason Chicago On Jun 11, 2012, at 2:50 PM, Andy & Norma McAuliffe wrote:

From: skepglen@hotmail.com Hello Joan in NSW! I didn't know that John Young or the other names you need, Sorry! Roland Young

Hi Roland I am looking for a needle in a haystack on behalf of a friend whose Luke/Lucas YOUNG went to India prior to his marriage in 1834 in Calcutta to Amelia Green. Samuel was a name consistant in his family although I have not been able to find his parent's names. I have found his marriage as I said, his death and all his children and possibly a sibling of his named Catherine, but I am sure they were not born in India. Luke/Lucas was working as an undertaker at the time of his marriage but was a carriage painter on the railways at the time of his death. Do any of these names ring a bell with your YOUNG family please? Cheers Joan in NSW, Australia >>> John Young and had a Castle given to him by the Queen? He sold it and then it burned down. He became Govern General of Canada for two years. I then found out he was born in India and his parents worked for England. Roland Young

Could be Corbally. Cannot seem to find any townland that looks similar to what's written here > ( looks like "Cordory, Galbally". -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

Sending this off list with images. Chris Christina Hunt wrote: > You will need to Login or Register and Login. Then go to the search page for > Limerick and pick VIEW Baptsims (see attached image search1.jpg) for instance. > A new search screen will come up. At the bottom you can drop down the box to > limit to a place or parish. I have limited here to Ardagh RC. (see search2.jpg) > Now you can search just within the records of this parish. > > Chris > > JoAnn Schrotzberger wrote: >> I followed the url given in one e-mail and got a list of parished and years >> of records but no way to search them. Is there a way other than one name at a >> time? I'd like to look at all the records from one parish. Is this possible? >> Thanks. >>

I followed the url given in one e-mail and got a list of parished and years of records but no way to search them. Is there a way other than one name at a time? I'd like to look at all the records from one parish. Is this possible? Thanks.

Corrine, Here is the list of records on the RootsIreland website. http://limerick.rootsireland.ie/generic.php?filename=sources.tpl&selectedMenu=sources Ardagh shows Bap. 1845 - 1900 Marriages 1841 - 1900 This is as early as they have. Christina Louie7Irish@aol.com wrote: > Hi Christina, > > I would like to check some RC Parish records in the area of the town of > Ardagh (about 3 mi. from Newcastle West). Do you know where there would be > baptismal records as early as 1825-1835 for my Kennedy's?? The children were > John, Pat, and Catherine and father's name was Patrick. The children all > coming to America by 1846-1848. Please help. Corrine > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-LIMERICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message