I was thinking about names last night after writing the reply on Crummer/Crommer..............wondering if it became Creamer. Some of you might look at Creamer and wonder how it could have come from Crummer - 'cos you'd probably pronounce the beginning of that name as you would the word 'cream' - whereas I'd pronounce it 'cray''mer' Take the word tea as in a cup of tea. I pronounce that tee, something similar to a golfers tee. Others (usually older people) can pronounce that word 'tay' as in the sound for 'hay'. The name Phelan - well, I pronounce that one 'fee' lan as in the fee to be paid for something. Others will pronounce it as 'fay'lan - with the same sound as 'hay'. Then if someone pronounces it as 'fay'lan - someone else can write it felan - or even with my feelan - they might pronounce that fee as fay and it becomes faylan if they were to write the word phonetically - that is as they hear it said..............if we were back in the days with no standard spellings for surnames. Whelan is the same - pronounced wheelan by some and whaylan by others........... and then, both names have become mixed up somehow. Take Gallivan in Kerry - McLysaght tells us that the surname Gallivan originated in Kerry - I can see that in the very early records, or this spelling of it. Then, if I look to early General Registrar Records the 1845 marriages forward and the 1864 deaths, births and marriages - there are Gallivans in all the registration districts for Kerry with only a few Galvins or Galvans - all three being the same name, just spelled differently. The Gallivans are from Kerry in these records - generally speaking and the Galvins and Galvans are generally from all the other counties of Ireland. At some point it changes and then we have Galvins from Kerry and Gallivans all over the rest of the place and it's not a terribly subtle change - doesn't go to being 50:50 before it switches. My own Gallivans - well, they were all born Gallivans when they were down in Kerry but then my own direct lineage - they were born in Northern Ireland and for each member of the family the spelling is different on their birth certificates - one being Gallivan,, the next being Galvin and then the next Gallivan and so on - like steps on a ladder. Looking to the name O'Connor or O'Conner..............for the most part the early records show the O'Conners as all being registered in the northern counties and the O'COnnors in the southern ones - not much to go by if you're looking for an O'Conner from Ireland, but at least some bit of a help in cutting 32 counties down to 6-10 - kind of makes the search area a bit smaller. Names changed - we've all talked of phonetic variations...........when I look through all these records, then I can see a spelling being common, or more common in one part of the country than another in the early years - in later years they all kind of standardised to one way or one or two variations. It's all very easy when you have a Murray or a Kelly - the only variations on these ones are Murry/Murray and Kelly/Kelley - it's with the others that it can get complicated - the Crummers and Cramers or Creamers - the Guilfoyles and the Kilfoyles........ The O'Loughlins, O'Lochlans, O'Loughlans, O'Locklans............ But if you watch carefully, and think about pronounciations - then there may be a hint or two in there for you somewhere. Take another name. Hyland. I've been looking at that one recently - from Laois. They're all over the place in the GRO records - for the county I want them from and the area I want to find them in too.........spelled Hyland for the most part in the area I want them in, but Highland for the northern registration districts...........Up north, there's another name - Hillan also found as Hilan sometimes - again for the same registration districts as the HIllan - mainly northern counties. When I turn to the parish records for the area I am interested in - sure enough, there are Hylands there for the time frame I am primarily interested in - but when I go back further, to an earlier time in these parish records I find no Hylands but I see an odd Hiland or Hilland and then I see some Hillans or Hilans............... and I wonder about those Hillans in the northern counties - that name is not found in Laois when I turn to the GRO records - only the Hylands are. Is it possible that the name Hyland is a derivation of Hilan or Hillan...... The main area that the Hylands are found in back in the early GRO records is Portarlington..........and for lots and lots of Portarlington names are Huegenot names - and then again, I can't keep track of the number of names that are northern Ireland names and for which there are connections to Monaghan and Fermanagh - real family connections fround in parish records and other archival sources, also, unusual names that connect back from one county to another....... McLysaght says that Hyland or (O)Hylan(d) is usually a form of Ó Faoláin (Phelan). and that it has become Ó hAoileáin in Connacht, where it is sometimes synonomous with Whelan. - Interesting, considering I began this mail with Phelan/WHelan. I've never bothered to check see what McLysaght had to say about Hyland before!! Then, and going on a bit to the Irish version of names - you think it was bad with the phonetic variations! Take Lyons. Now, that's a name that you can't go too wrong with - you have Lyons, Lynes, Lions............then you have them without that 's' - but think of this. In one part of Ireland the Irish version of that name is spelled 'O Liaghin' and in another O'Liatháin. Change that O to a Ní if you are talking about a woman - My name in Irish is Sinéad Ní Liaghin............or Sinéad Ní Liathain - depending on whether I am acknowedging my Kerry/Cork or Galway ancestry. See that Liathain up there - how would you pronounce it? I'd say Lee han...............and Leehan - well, we have a Co. Cork name 'Lehane' and the Lehanes' and Lyons' are related - the name Lyons is considered to be an Anglisized version of Lehane and Lehane came from Liatháin - again, I've just looked at what McLysaght has to say about the Lehane name and it's the same as I knew................and I learned that when I had absolutely no interest in genealogy, back when I first went to college down in Cork all the way from Laois - I stayed in digs - with a landlady, bed, breakfast and evening meal. Mrs. Lehane and Mrs. Lehane announced to me - or someone did that we were distantly related, and it was nothing to do with the fact that our names came from one another - we actually were related by marriage. Funny the way things turn out. I think that's enough on names - a lot of it I've said before - but I've been kind of thinking about this one ever since a lister posted their interests as being Keenah or Keehan from Clare (was it? sorry, I can't remember who it was and I just know that it set me thinking when I saw it) Then, I was wondering how common is Keenan in the same area - could the 'h' originally have been another 'n' that got mixed up or mispronounced somewhere along thte line giving those two branches of that family in that area. Then, we had Karen and her trying to read names on the scottish census..........I had a mail about the name McNickles - bet that became McNicholls............and the Crummer/Crommer mail I read yesterday. Enough!! Just a few thoughts for those of you with unusual names...... Jane