I often find myself answering questions on traditions in Ireland. The following is an exerpt from a book on Irish Folk Custom and Belief by Seán Ó Súilleabháin HUMAN LIFE The idea of the existence of some kind of soul in human beings is found among even the most primitive peoples. The soul (as distinct from the life-force) was regarded as some kind of concrete entity, capable of moving about independently of the body to which it belonged, and of assuming different shapes at will. In Ireland, for example, there are traces of the belief that the souls of emigrants who had died abroad returned to their native land in the form of seagulls or in a sea-mist. Such ideas were, of their nature, pre-Christian. Dreams and hallucinations among early peoples seem to have given rise to the belief that the soul (or whatever it was) could move about of its own accord. In dreams, we appear to see people and to speak to them, and they converse with us-it does not matter that some of them are already dead. Nowadays, we awake, knowing that it was only a dream. But early man, relying on the evidence of his senses, believed that it all had really happened. Thus there arose the idea that part of oneself could leave the body in sleep, meet its counterparts and associate with them, returning later to the body. A common story in Ireland and elsewhere tells how an old man, accompanied by a young boy, went out into a field one fine day; the old man lay down and was soon fast asleep; the boy then saw a butterfly emerge from the old man's mouth and fly off towards a ruin in the bottom of the field; after a while, the butterfly returned and re-entered the old man's mouth; he immediately woke up and told the boy that he had dreamt that he had gone into that same ruin and there found hidden treasure; they both went immediately to the ruin and found the treasure at the place indicated in the dream. From the type of belief which underlies the foregoing story- that the soul (butterfly, in this case) can leave the body when it sleeps-it is but a natural step to the belief that the souls of the dead can also move about. This came to he tied up with the idea of ghosts and the human fear of them, as they could sometimes be malignant. Other ideas concerned the human blood, the breath, and the body's shadow, which were also associated with the life or soul. Also, in folktales, we meet with the motif of the giant's soul (life) being outside of his body, hidden in an egg. So too, the human life-index might he bound up with such a thing as a tree, which was planted when the person was born; when the tree began to fail and die, so too would the person. Folk belief was never very clear naturally, about what appearance the soul had, in itself. It was, however, believed that it entered the body at birth through loigín an bhaithis (the skull-cleft) and left by the same exit at death. It was believed that souls were so small that two of them could converse while doing their purgatory at either side of a leaf; so also they could congregate in great numbers on the rafters of houses. It was also said that a dead person should not he keened over for two hours after death lest the sleeping dogs of the Devil be roused along the path which the departed soul had to follow. All over the world there is a traditional objection to unauthorised intrusions on certain occasions. For examples men should not intrude where women are working, and vice versa. There are many stories told to explain how certain castles came to be left unfinished: the builders had refused to complete the building after they had seen a woman stop to observe them at work. Then there is the story left unfinished by Cúchulainn when he discovered that a woman had been smuggled in to a forge to listen to him, against his orders. Refrence has already been made to the aversion men had to meeting a red haired woman, or one who wore a red garment, while on their way to fish or to the fair. A whistling woman or a crowing hen usually brought bad luck. An echo of the biblical story of Samson is to be found in the rule that a woman should not cut a boys hair nor should she draw water from certain holy wells. It was said that if the gift of poetry descended upon a woman it would end with her - she could not hand it on to her sons. In the field of folk medicine, some remedies had to be applied by a man to a woman, others by a woman to a man. Finally, when they came to die, men were said to meet Death quietly, while women resisted it (deire fir a shuan,deire mná á faire féin suas). Conception and childbirth have always been regardede as crucial points in human life, and so were hedged about with a great many beliefs and customs. It was said that sterility could be overcome by sleeping in the old remains popularly known as "beds of Diarmaid and Gráinne". Conception could be prevented if an enemy tied a knot in a handkerchief at the time of marriage; no child would be born to that couple until the knot was loosed. A pregnant woman had to avoid meeting a hare, if possible otherwise her child would be born with a hare-lip (séanas); this could be prevented, however, if the woman on meting the hare tore the hem of her garment, thereby transferring the blemish to it. A tear in the ear of the hare, ifit could be caught, also acted as a preventative. Neither should a pregnant woman enter a graveyard lest she turn her foot on a grave; this would cause her child to be horn with a clubfoot (cam reilge). She should not remain in a house while a corpse was being placed in the coffin, nor act as sponsor to a bride. If she visited a forge, however, she was always asked to blow the bellows to bring luck to the smith.

Extracted from Lewis's Topographical Directoryof ireland: RATHSARAN Rathsaran, a parish in the barony of Upper Ossory, Queen's county and province of Leinster 2 ¾ miles (W.) from Rathdowney, on the road from Dublin to Thurles; containing 868 inhabitants. This parish is bounded on the west by the county of Tipperary and comprises 2065 statute acres, as aplotted under the tithes act. The living is a rectory and vicarage, in the Diocese of Ossory, and in the patronage of the Bishop: the tithes amount to £130, and the glebe comprises 114 acres. The glebe-house was erected by aid of a gift of £250, and a loan of £550, in 1820, from the late Board of First Fruits. The church was built in 1797, by aid of a gift of £500 from the same board. I the R.C. divisions it forms part of the union or district of Rathdowney and contains a chapel. The parochial school, in which are about 50 children, is aided by a contribution from the rector, and a grant of £8 per annum from the Society fr Discountenancing Vice. ROSCONNELL Rosconnell, a parish, partly in the barony of Fassadining, county of Kilkenny, but chiefly in that of Upper Ossory, Queen's county and province of leinster, 1 ¾ miles (S. by W.) from Ballynakill, on the road to Durrow; containing 797 inhabitants, and comprising 1942 statute acres, as applotted under the Tithe Act. It is a rectory, in the Diocese of Ossory, forming part of the union of Attanagh; the tithes amount to £143.1.6 ½ . in the R.C. divisions it is part of the union or district of Balyragget. About 30 children are educated in private school. ROSENALLIS OR OREGAN Rosenallis or Oregan, a parish in the barony of Tinnehinch, Queen's county, and province of Leinster, on the road from Emo to Birr, through Clonaslee; containing, with the greater part of the post town of Mountmellick (which is separately described), 8463 inhabitants. The parish is said to have derived its name from Rossa Failgea, eldest son of Cathavir O'more. The north eastern extremity of the Slieve Bloom mountains is included in it. The Barrow rises in Tinnehinch hill, and after receiving its tributary stream of Owenass or Onas, quits the parish near Mountmellick. The soil is cold, but capable of great improvement by the application of lime , which is much used, as is also a compost of clay, bog mould and the refuse of the farm-yard. In the Slieve Bloom mountains are quarries of a soft white sandstone, which hardens when exposed to the air and is susceptible of a high polish; it is in great demand throughout the country for chimney pieces and hearth stones; a coarser kind is used for flagging. Another peculiarity of these mountains is the fertility of their northern side, which is interspersed with neat farmhouses and cultivated enclosures to its summit, while its southern side is mostly a healthy waste. Iron ore was formerly raised but is not now. Ther is a large tract of bog in this district, affording an abundant supply of fuel. Tillage is more attended to than grazing; there are but few flocks of sheep. The chief crops are potatoes, wheat, barley and oats. Near Mount-Mellick are three public nurseries. Besides the fairs which are held in the last named town, there is one at Tinnehinch on ct 29th solely for pigs. Comfortable farm houses are thickly scattered throughout the parish, and there are several good mansions of which the principal are Capard: the residence of John Pigott, Esq., situated on the side of a hill commanding an extensive view of the adjacent country, with the towns of Mount mellick, maryborough, Portarlington, Mountrath and Monastereven. Rynn: of Mrs. Croasdaile Summergrove of J. sabatier, Esq., And the Glebe of the Rev. geo. Kemmis. The manufacture of woollen cloths, stuffs and cottons is carried on chiefly in Mountmellick and its vicinity, ther are also breweries and distilleries. The Living is a rectory and vicarage, in the Diocese of Kildare; the rectory is impropriate in Gen. Dunne; the vicarage united with those of Castlebrack, Kilmanman and Rerymore, is in the patronage of Thos. Kemmis Esq. The Tithes amount to £398.15.4 ¾ ., of which £265.16.11 ¼ is payable to the impropriator, and £132.16.5 ½ to the vicar; the parishes of the union constitute the barony of Tinnehinch, and the tithes of the benefice amount to £336.3.3 ½ . The glebe house at Camira, is a commodious building on an elevated piece of ground near the village of Rosenallis, and has a glebe of 180 acres annexed to it, besides which there are 356 acreas of glebe, including mountain land in the other parishes of the union. The church at Rosenallis, is a neat building, and has been lately thoroughly repaired by means of a grant of £578 from the Ecclesiastical commissioners; there is a chapel of ease at Mountmellick. In the R.C. divisions Rosenallis is the head of a union or district, comprising parts of the parishes of Rosenallis, Castlebrack and Rerymore; the other part of the parish is in the district of Mountmellick; there are chapels at Capard and MountMellick. The Society of Friends have have an enclosed burial ground near the village. Besides the schools at Mount Mellick; there are two in Rosenalis, one of which is a national school. At Rosenalis is a station of the constabulary police. Within the grounds of Cappard are several raths, and brass coins of Jas. II were dug up near the mansion a few years since. A remarkable togher or bog-pass, in the neighbourhood is pointed out as a place where and engagement tok place between the armies of King William's and King James's forces, in which the latter were defeated.

No - there isn't. You'll find the odd map with Laois on it - maybe even Rathdowney showing - not often though. I have the section of the OS map 1:50,000 for that area scanned if you'd like a copy - plus I can scan a few more bits of things to give you an idea of teh bigger picture.......Rathdowney and Ballybrophy in relation to the rest of teh county and next door counties. My scanned file is over 400kb - big - just so's you know if you say you'd like it. Jane(-: ----- Original Message ----- From: <MA2QUILT2@aol.com> To: <IRL-LAOIS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 11 May 2000 17:13 Subject: Re: IRL-LAOIS-D Digest V00 #41 > Is there a good map of Co. Laois on the internet? I would like a good look at > the areas of Rathdowney and Ballybrophy. > Thanks. > Mary Anne Berrigan (Bergin) > > > ==== IRL-LAOIS Mailing List ==== > This list is sponsored by the Laois, IrelandGenWeb website - http://www.rootsweb.com/~irllex/ > >

there are several good sites for Laois on the web. www.local.ie/general/map/laois.shtml also htttp://laois.local.ie or www.seanruad.com charlotte Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: <MA2QUILT2@aol.com> To: <IRL-LAOIS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 9:13 AM Subject: Re: IRL-LAOIS-D Digest V00 #41 > Is there a good map of Co. Laois on the internet? I would like a good look at > the areas of Rathdowney and Ballybrophy. > Thanks. > Mary Anne Berrigan (Bergin) > > > ==== IRL-LAOIS Mailing List ==== > This list is sponsored by the Laois, IrelandGenWeb website - http://www.rootsweb.com/~irllex/ >

Is there a good map of Co. Laois on the internet? I would like a good look at the areas of Rathdowney and Ballybrophy. Thanks. Mary Anne Berrigan (Bergin)

My apologies to everyone - and my thanks to all those who pointed out that it probably was a baptismal register I was looking at..... It was. My excuse is that I was in a hurry - and that there was one piece of paper under the head of the pages I was looking at - which said marriages and gave a time span.......... So - I assumed it was marriages and not baptisms.....didn't think to check the official title - as I would usually........ My father always said that 'assumption' was one of the seven deadly sins!!!! Now - I will take myself off into a little hole with my big red face for the next few months!!! Kind of....I'll probably forget all about this by next week..... Thanks to everyone who offered comments - AND - some of what was said was really very interesting. Jane :-(

The idea that Jane Lyons was suggesting is similar to an identification process used by Queens County descendants I know of. Two Timothy Finley's who emigrated to the same small farming area in Wisconsin were identified by one using the first letter of his wife's last name as his middle initial: he was Timothy R. Finley. The other one, our ancestor, was not identified with his wife's initial: he would have been Timothy O., if he had been. So the idea of using another family member as an identification is at least similar. Joyce

I'm working a register at the moment and in it all the men (grooms) have a second Christian name. As far as I know this is unusual - Catholic register pre 1800.......... What I'm finding more unusual is that many of thse names are women's names. Not just Mary which was a common enoughname to give to boys - but Judith, Catherine, Josephine, Margaret, Anne, Honor. There are also instances of the men having the same Christian name listed twice. So - has anyone any comments. I know I've looked at a fair few registers and never seen this before - anywhere..... A forward looking parish priest? Someone who just listed the Confirmation name taken by these men? Surely not that many men took womens names as their confirmation name.... The name of their father or mother - if one was dead. James James being James the son of James..... The second name....the extra one seems to come first....because all the women's names are listed first.... So - Josephine Thomas is Thomas the son of Joesephine? Where are all those genealogists.... How many people have seen it before. It's a Laois register and I've not seen it in Laois before either??? Jane :-)

I lost my notebook but I do know that these are the names of people involved in baptisms up to August 1824. Knowing me - and how many things I'm up to - I might not get back to this film for an awful long time - in which case - this would be sitting in my puter of no use to me but maybe of use to someone else. I have the details as to who is the child of who and sponsors at the baptisms. Some place names are mentioned and then there is also the actual date. In some instances - I may have had problems reading the name and so inlude a possible other surname which I think it might be. Jane :-) ?Bayan ?? 1824: Baptism Sponsor ?Burgess May.(Margarett) 1824: Child ?Burgess Matt 1824: Father ?Coone John 1824: Baptism Sponsor ?Duvray Betty 1824: Mother ?Sheeran Margt 1824: Mother ?Terence James 1824: Child ?Terence John 1824: Father ?Tierney Ellen 1824: Baptism Sponsor Bailie MAry 1824: Baptism Sponsor Brennan Ann 1824: Mother Brennan Cath 1824: Baptism Sponsor Brennan Cath 1824: Baptism Sponsor Brophy Biddy 1824: Mother Browne Patt 1824: Child Browne Dinis 1824: Father Browne Biddy 1824: Mother Browne Kitty 1824: Baptism Sponsor Bryan Jean 1824: Mother Buckley John 1824: Baptism Sponsor Buggy Ann 1824: Mother Buggy Minny 1824: Baptism Sponsor Burke Richd 1824: Baptism Sponsor Byrne Anne 1824: Child Byrne Richd 1824: Father Byrne Mary 1824: Mother Byrne Richd 1824: Baptism Sponsor Carell Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor Carey Cath 1824: Mother Carole Jn 1824: Child Carole John 1824: Child Carole Joseph 1824: Father Carole John 1824: Father Carole Biddy 1824: Mother Carole Mary 1824: Mother Carole Patt 1824: Baptism Sponsor Carole John 1824: Baptism Sponsor Carole ?Betty 1824: Baptism Sponsor Casey Cath 1824: Baptism Sponsor Connor Cath 1824: Child Connor Wm. 1824: Father Corcoran Pat 1824: Child Corcoran Elizabeth 1824: Child Corcoran Ned 1824: Father Corcoran Mick 1824: Father Crook Judy 1824: Mother Cullen Mary 1824: Mother Cullen Betty 1824: Mother Cullen Alley 1824: Baptism Sponsor Cullin Dan 1824: Baptism Sponsor Cushin James 1824: Baptism Sponsor Dalton Ned 1824: Baptism Sponsor Dalton Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor Davlin Dibby 1824: Mother Debrey Cath 1824: Mother Delaney Patt 1824: Child Delaney Patt 1824: Father Delaney Betty 1824: Mother Delaney Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor Delaney Cath 1824: Baptism Sponsor Dooley Ansty 1824: Mother Dooley PAtt 1824: Baptism Sponsor Dooley Bridget 1824: Baptism Sponsor Dooley Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor Dooling Elizth 1824: Baptism Sponsor Dunn Fintan 1824: Baptism Sponsor Dunn Ned 1824: Baptism Sponsor English Mary 1824: Mother FitzK Wm 1824: Baptism Sponsor FitzpK Daniel 1824: Child FitzpK Mick 1824: Child FitzpK Denis 1824: Father FitzpK Mick 1824: Father Glasscock Mary 1824: Mother Glasscock Margt 1824: Baptism Sponsor Green Patt 1824: Baptism Sponsor Hickey Betty 1824: Baptism Sponsor Hopper John 1824: Child Hopper Aliza 1824: Child Hopper Jno 1824: Father Hopper Wm. 1824: Father Hopper Judy 1824: Baptism Sponsor Hynes MAry 1824: Mother Johnson Kitty 1824: Mother Kegan John 1824: Baptism Sponsor Kelly Kitty 1824: Mother Kenna John 1824: Child Kenna JOhn 1824: Father Kerigan (Keegan) Eliza 1824: Child Kerigan (Keegan) Tom 1824: Father Kifford (Kilford) Biddy 1824: Child Kifford (Kilford) John 1824: Father King Margaret 1824: Child King Pat 1824: Father Lalor John 1824: Child Lalor Jno 1824: Father Lalor Mary 1824: Mother Lalor Wm. 1824: Baptism Sponsor Lalor Fintan 1824: Baptism Sponsor Lalor James 1824: Baptism Sponsor Lalor Sally 1824: Baptism Sponsor Lalor Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor Laughlin Mary 1824: Child Laughlin Mick 1824: Father Mack Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor Mahony Lal 1824: Baptism Sponsor McDaniel Betty 1824: Baptism Sponsor McEvoy Denis 1824: Child McEvoy Mary 1824: Child McEvoy Patt 1824: Father McEvoy Lal 1824: Father McEvoy Mary 1824: Mother McMahon Marg 1824: Mother McMahon Mick 1824: Baptism Sponsor McMahon Cath 1824: Baptism Sponsor Mila Judy 1824: Mother Mooney Wm 1824: Child Mooney Mick 1824: Father Mooney Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor Mooney Cath 1824: Baptism Sponsor Mooney Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor Moore Mary 1824: Mother Mullowney James 1824: Baptism Sponsor Mulloy Mick 1824: Baptism Sponsor Murphy Mary 1824: Mother Murphy Jn 1824: Baptism Sponsor Murphy Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor Murphy Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor Nut Wm. 1824: Baptism Sponsor Parkinson Peggy 1824: Mother Phelan Mary 1824: Mother Phelan Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor Podg (Bodg) Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor Porter Daniel 1824: Child Porter ?Henry 1824: Father Ramsbottom Eliza 1824: Child Ramsbottom Richd 1824: Father Redmond Francis 1824: Child Redmond Jno 1824: Father Redmond James 1824: Baptism Sponsor Ryan ?Catherine 1824: Child Ryan Jno 1824: Father Ryan Edward 1824: Baptism Sponsor Shea Patt 1824: Child Shea Patt 1824: Father Stapleton Patt 1824: Child Stapleton Ned 1824: Father Sullivan Michl 1824: Baptism Sponsor Synnott Anne 1824: Mother Tobin Mary 1824: Mother Tobin Ned 1824: Baptism Sponsor Tobin Kitty 1824: Baptism Sponsor Tynan Eliza 1824: Child Tynan Peter 1824: Father Walsh Joan (Jian) 1824: Child Walsh Jno 1824: Child Walsh Ned 1824: Father Walsh Edmd 1824: Father Walsh Patt 1824: Baptism Sponsor Walsh John 1824: Baptism Sponsor Walsh Peggy 1824: Baptism Sponsor Whelan Mary 1824: Child Whelan Jno 1824: Child Whelan Dinis 1824: Child Whelan Wm. 1824: Father Whelan Jno 1824: Father Whelan Mich 1824: Father Whelan Mary 1824: Mother Whelan Jos 1824: Baptism Sponsor Whelan Kitty 1824: Baptism Sponsor Whelan Mary 1824: Baptism Sponsor

Thankyou Jane you do a really good job and make this sight very interesting. Searching for Dorans of Maryborough Laois, Arrived Australia 1841. Maryann Wallace Queensland Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: <IRL-LAOIS-D-request@rootsweb.com> To: <IRL-LAOIS-D@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:21 PM Subject: IRL-LAOIS-D Digest V00 #35

For those who may also have relatives from County Cork and haven't dropped by in the past month or so, we would like to welcome you to visit us. We have over-hauled the site substantially. The surname query board now has over 3600 on-line messages to search. Additionally, there are many useful on-line resource links that have been added in the past month, both for Cork, Ireland, and genealogy in general. The address is http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlcor/

-----Original Message----- From: justin <stump@hereintown.net> To: CountyCork-L@rootsweb.com <CountyCork-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 1:07 PM Subject: [Cork] New Member/ BAILEYS,WALSHS >Dear Lists, > Please forgive the paltry info. I don't have alot to go on and hope someday to make a connection. The Baileys were a quiet bunch,never said much unless something had to be said. >Never a hint of family business or scandals,(sigh!) Here we go! > Thomas Bailey married Katherine,sometimes seen as Sara Katherine. County unknown. Migrated to N.Y. USA. around 1836. Settled in Manhattan, NY. >CHILDREN: >1) Johanna BAILEY/born in IRE circa 1835, married Bernard WALSH is listed in 1890 >NY directory as widow of Bernard. One daughter known of Margaret. >2) John CAGE BAILEY/born circa 1836 in NY married Elizabeth CUSTER,settled in W.Va.. >3) Patrick Joseph,middle name?/born 1848 married Hemiliene Rutherford >at St. Joseph's Church in Martinsburg, W.VA.. Is buried there with his Mother Katherine. >Katherine died in 1879 at the age of 70 >Patrick died in 1892 at the age of 44 >Father, Thomas I have never found this elusive fellow,keep looking though. >Hoping someone can give me something on Bernard Walsh. >It is not as common as all the Johns,Pats and Toms. These BAILEYS and WALSHES have been tough adversaries. I'm beginning to think the fairies are at work.Please forgive if some of you have received double postings.I will refrain from doing it further, I'm actually throwing out some lines to see if I can get some bites. Thanks for your patience. > Yours In Friendship, > Deanne > > > >==== CountyCork Mailing List ==== >** Visit Helpful Hints for Successful Searching, includes information on Irish Civil Registration 1864+ http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlwat/instruct.htm **

Hi I am relatively new to the list - maybe you can help me out. I am searching for the birthplace of my grandfather Richard Dooley. Family history says he was born in Westmeath, but after unsuccessfully posting in the Westmeath list, I am beginning to wonder if he could have come from Laois or Offlay. He was born in 1855 - immigrated to the US in 1882 - Married Anna McDermott about 1882-84. They lived in Harrison NJ and had six son and one daughter. He died in Harrison in 1907. Possible siblings of Richard could be Edward, William, Josephine and Catherine. Thanks for any help. Ann

Hi Everybody, I add my thanks, Jane, for the interesting information you've posted. My husband's grandfather Richard QUINLAN (born about 1890) was from Ballinakill. He, his brothers and at least one sister emigrated to the US around 1900 and settled in New York City. The brothers were John, James, Michael, Andrew and George and the one sister I know of was Mary Ann. Richard and Mary Ann arrived in New York City in Oct.1904 and joined John who was already living in Manhattan. I'd love to learn the name of their parents and more about the town of Ballinakill. Once here in New York, Richard met and married a girl from Dublin named Margaret Elizabeth Lennox (from the area Rathmines area of south Dublin City). There's a family legend that she was scheduled to sail on the Titanic but changed her plans at the last minute. She finally did sail in 1915 - if the story is true it's not surprising it took 3 years to get her on another boat ! I have some pictures of the Quinlan family taken shortly after they arrived here and one of John QUINLAN labeled "in the IRA" wearing a uniform. Genealogy has been a hobby of mine for 1 1/2 years and I've learned lots of fascinating things about my own roots - from Ireland but here in the US since around 1700. I'm just now starting on our more recent immigrant ancestors and am finding it a whole different process in tracing them abroad. Any tips or hints from any fellow researchers are greatly appreciated. And any descriptions of the area by those of you fortunate enough to live in Ireland would be great too. Those of us who have only had a long-distance taste of Irish culture envy those who can sample it firsthand ! The closest I've ever been to Ireland is going Celtic festivals here in the US or listening to Chieftain albums and a tape of "Riverdance". Thank you for sharing. Happy Hunting Maryanne Butler Walsh Long Island, NY USA

Hi Folks, Have been reading all the postings from everyone with great interest this past week. Thanks, Jane, for performing such a valuable service by educating all of us who don't live in Ireland and don't have ready access to the records. I greatly appreciate it. I envy you your set-dancing in Coolrain, I'd love to join you! I figured it was about time I put down some information on the Co. Laois ancestors I have. Maybe someone out there can connect to them. GG grandfather James WALSH, baptised in Aghaboe Parish in 1829, son of James WALSH and Judy FITZPATRICK. Married Anne MORTIMER, most likely after they both emigrated to the Troy, New York state area, around 1865. Anne MORTIMER was baptised in Camross in 1843, the daughter of Michael MORTIMER and Catherine PHELAN. I have been able to uncover quite a bit on the Co. Laois MORTIMERS, thanks to a visit to the Camross parish priest, Father Lalor, and also contact with some Mortimers living in the Killinure area. Would love to find out some more about the Walsh clan in the area. My gg grandfather James had 1 known brother, Martin, and 2 known sisters, Frances and Mary. Mary emigrated and also lived in Troy, NY. I have no idea what happened to the other two. When the four siblings mentioned above were baptised (mid 1820's-early 1830's), the family lived in the townland of Derrin. A trip to the Valuation Office in Dublin revealed that sometime after Griffith's was taken, in the early 1860's, a Judy Walsh was residing in the townland of Bockagh, along with a Michael Mortimer, certainly the father of Anne. Keep up the good work, everybody! Lisa Dougherty Castleton, NY USA

Jane Lyons wrote: Maybe let us get to know one another. I'm from the county (Laois)......don;t live there at the moment...........but I do love it...........and you - or most of you I imagine - have family froim there - want to know more. and if my sister has her way - it won't be graveyards I'll be hopping around in this weekend..........it'll be step dancing in Coolrain!!! Jane Hello Jane et al., Your comment about us all having family from Laois has prompted me to drop a note. I previously sent in a request asking if anyone knew anything about my great great grandparents, Susanna Meredith and James Clarke, who came from Maryborough. Several people responded to that query and I now know a bit more about some of their relatives who also came from what was then Queen's County. You may be interested to know that Frederick Banting, co-discoverer of insulin, was a grandson of Susannah's sister. His Banting grandparents, possibly his father as well, were from the Maryborough (now Portlaoise) area. For the Canadians on the list, Dr. William Clarke who lived in Guelph, Ontario was also born near Maryborough (I suspect he and James were related, possibly brothers, as they lived very near one another in Ontario). William married Laura Secord, daughter of the Canadian heroine Laura Secord. Laura Sr. is well known by Canadians for her role in alerting the British in the Niagara region to a planned attack by the "Yankees." The Laura Secord candy company may be better known than the real Laura to those of you from outside of Canada. Sharon Haggerty London, ON Canada Home Page: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~sharonmh/descendan/open.htm Haggerty Web Page currently being revised

Do you know something Gerri - and all on this list? Anne as well :-) In time - I will build up all that I have on Laois...my graveyard work......the Tithes - those parish registers.Griffiths............the stories from the Rathdowney review.............. but in all that - I love to read or our history and traditions........ I am - it seems - a very lucky person........way, way back at the turn of the century.....my ancestors begain to write about their lives.....they wrote of what they did in America as children, they wrote of coming home to Ireland.....their images...........the lives of people around them............my ancestors are not from Laois :-( I know my Irish stories....I know my history...I know how to talk/chat <g> I know a storyteller - a Sheannachaoi - some of my ggreanduncles were just those Anyway - I'm lucky re my ancestors.......... I like to hear the stories of those who left.......... believe it or not <g> But - I don't know how many people are on this list............i don't know what images/beliefs you have of this country of mine......... I would like to know...... I remember once a friend of mine telling me her mother was dying and that her family would like to give her mother an Irish funeral..........ands she wanted to know what an irish funeral was like and - I remember thinking..........but, sure aren't funerals the same the world over? Maybe a morbid subject? But - at the time - Iasked people I knew ranging in age from 75-35...........what funerals were like in their parts of the world.......... and I got the land of my life......I REALLY learned about the differences in culture then............ Maybe an interesting topic.......... maybe something to wake up a list.............let us all find out where we are from.............. Maybe let us get to know one another. I'm from the county (Laois)......don;t live there at the moment...........but I do love it...........and you - or most of you I imagine - have family froim there - want to know more. and if my sister has her way - it won't be graveyards I'll be hopping around in this weekend..........it'll be step dancing in Coolrain!!! Jane From: "Geraldine A. Evans" <gerrylima@wcoil.com> To: <IRL-LAOIS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 27 April 2000 00:25 Subject: THANK YOU JANE LYONS!!!! > Dear Jane Lyons, > Many thanks to you for all the information, the time and energy you give > to provide that information. > > This dummy from Ohio, USA, has learned so much from your posts...even > how to pronounce Laois! > > If I never find another one of my Irish kin, I am content to learn all I > can about the place they were born, lived, died. And those of my > ancestors who did come to Ohio, how they must have missed their > homeland!. > > From our family stories, I know that some of them named their new homes > after places at Ireland, sang together the songs, danced the dances. > Today we continue to name our offspring after those that came here. As > I am named after my ggrandfather Jeremiah FINN from Laois. > > You are truly appreciated for all your efforts. > > Dia Duit, > > Gerry (FINN) Evans > Ohio > > > ==== IRL-LAOIS Mailing List ==== > This list is sponsored by the Laois, IrelandGenWeb website - http://www.rootsweb.com/~irllex/ > >

Firstly, thank you to all those who have welcomed me back - personally or thru any list :-) Thank you also to anyone who is new to a list and has said thank you to me.......... Any time I have ever begun a series of posts like this in the past - I have managed to lose myself or my train of thoughts because I have become bogged down by questions asked of me - or I say I will do this or that to too many people............and end up doing little or nothing!! and feeling guilty because I haven't been able to do what I said I would do to someone.......... I have found it very difficult in the past to make sure that what I am posting county specific...........particularly when things kind of go from one into the other.............going from geography to divisions to counties..... I ask those of you who will have no interest in some of the things I post which will be county or province specific to bear with me......be patient and hit your delete key. Anybody who has asked me any specific questions.....I will try to answer them if I can....either to you personally or if more than one person has asked the same thing, and I know it is something I can deal with and which is possibly part of my 'train' <g> then the reply will be in a mail to the newsgroup. If I can't answer anything - I will simply say sorry if I can - it may take a bit of time Thanks Jane

LAND RECORDS Tithe Applotment Books Tithes were an income tax on farming..usually about one tenth of the annual income. These were used for the upkeep of the Church of Ireland and were paid from the time of the Reformation. Before the Composition Act of 1823 it was possible to pay them in kind instead of money. From the time of the Composition Act they were supposed to be paid in cash..and Tithe surveys were carried out in each Parish to assess what the income for that parish would be. Two people were appointed by each parish to carry out this assessment. Both Catholics and Protestants resented this tax - Tax was not payable on all land, and there was even variation on the types of land from place to place. From 1736 grazing land had an exemption - this was usually land held by landlords. Certain crops were taxable, others weren't. Potatoes could be taxable in one parish and not in the one next door. Tithe books are not comprehensive, people who did not hold land are not listed and some types of land were passed over absolutely. Towns and cities were usually not asssesed. They are arranged by townland and usually give the acreage held by each farmer. However, note here that the measurement used was the plantation or Irish acre which differs in size from the imperial or English acre used in the Griffiths Valuation. The information you get from the Tithe Books is simple, : townland name; landholders name; area of land andtithes paid. Some wil list the landlords name as well. The original tithe books for the 26 counties of the Republic of Ireland are held in the National Archives in Dublin. Those for the 6 counties of Northern Ireland were transferred to the PRONI in Belfast. Copies remain in Dublin in the National Archives and National Library. Tithe Defaulters: Both Catholics and Protestants objected to paying of Tithes. 1830 Catholic Parishoners in Graiguenamanagh in Co. Kilkenny withheld their tithes. 1832 they were followed by those in most parts of south Leinster and Munster and violence erupted - The 'Tithe War'. Church of Ireland Ministers therefore ended up without this money during 1831. It was necessary for tehm in order to claim from the Clergy Relief Fund to draw up a list of Parishoners who had defaulted on the Tithes. 499 Lists/Schedules of Defaulters were submitted in order to avail of the relief fund. 127 of these still survive. - Lists of Tithe Defaulters...not written up alphabetically, and it is necessary to go through each book for each county and for some there are a number of books. (Some of these have been produced on CD..Kilkenny may be one - I stand open to correction on that - Jane (53 of these books relate to Kilkenny; 30 to Tipperary; some coverage of Laois, Carlow, Offaly, Meath, Cork, Kerry , Limerick, Louth Waterford and Wexford). Quaker records show lists of those who defaulted on Tithes also. Griffiths Primary Valuation This valuation records every landowner and householder in Ireland in a period shortly after the famine. An Act was passed in 1826 allowed for a uniform valuation of property in al Ireland for levying of county cess charges and grand Jury Rates. Thus began an assessment f the whole country, county by county by Sir Richard Griffith.. Amendments were passed to the 1826 Act, the first in 1831 excluded those houses under the annual valuation of £3, another in 1836 excluded house under £5 The information given in the Griffiths gives: the townland address and householders name; the name of the person from whom the property is leased; a description of the property; the acreage and the valuation. If a surname was common in an area then the surveyors adopted the practise of indicating the fathers name to show the difference between two people of the same Christian name and surname..(usually) So Tadgh O'Brien (Michael) is the son of Michael O'Brien and Tadgh O'Brien (James) is the son of James O'Brien. However, here in Ireland people of the same name could/can be distinguished simply by indicating the colour of their hair (as gaeilge - thru Irish ) so it would have been sufficient here to indicate that one Tadgh had red hair and one Tadgh black - calling them respectively Tadgh (Red) O'Brien and Tadgh (Black) O'Brien To confuse those who come in search of ancestors has always been the ambition of the very Ancestors J The main difference between the Tithe Applotment Books and the Griffiths Valuation is that all householders were listed in Griffiths. Remember the different types of acres used in each, the Irish and English acre..this will account for differnce in size of land held by a family from one valuation to the other I they appear in both. Remember also the fact that the house of less than £3 annual value were included up to the year 1831 and excluded from that point forward, and those with an annual value of £5 were included up to 1836 and excluded from then on. Many refer to the Griffiths CD, which is handy enough to track a surname through the country.or to find some places in counties where the name occurs. However, this is a list of names for the county, there is no way of knowing if the six John O'Leary's listed for one county are one and the same or if all the land is held by John O'Leary and rented out to others. One problem I personally have noted with the griffiths CD is that while it is suppposed to have been transcribed from the originals - the place names are not as they should be in many instances. There are placenames in there which while I know them from the originals - are not the same as actually written in the Griffiths valuation books. This I assume is because these were written up by people with little or no knowledge of Irish geography or Irish phonetics. So that while they transcribed what they thought they saw..because of faded ink or poor script - the actual name might be quite different.if it was someone with a knowledge of either Irish phonetics or the geography of the area they would have written a different word as the place name. This is not a huge error to anyoe who does know the geography of the area they are enquiring about, but for anyone who hasn't got a clue it's a different story. There is an index to the surnames occurring in the Griffiths Valuation. The indices are made up by county..divided into baronies, parishes, townlands. There are two sections to an index and some counties have a number of volumes covering the whole county.e.g. Co. Cork has three. Each index is divided into two sections, the first being an alphabetical list of surnames occurring in the area the index covers and the names that occur in each Barony. The second section is an alphabetical list of surnames occurring in each parish within that barony. It doesn't matter if you don't know which Barony the parish you are looking for is in - you just check through the second section. It doesn't matter even if you don't know the parish you can just check the first section to see where the name occurred in a county.. The index to the surnames tells you how many times a surname occurreed in a particular parish and whether or not that surname also occurred in the Tithe books. It does not give you any more information than that. The Householders Index with their LDS-FHC film numbers: Antrim Armagh, Carlow, Cavan LDS film # 0919001 Clare, Cork, Londonderry LDS film # 0919002 Donegal, Down Dublin LDS Film # 0919003 Fermanagh, Galway Kerry, Kildare, Kilkeny LDS film # 0919004 Laois, Leitrim, Limerick, Longford, Louth, Mayo, Meath LDS film # 0919005 Monaghan, Offaly, Roscommon, Sligo, Tipperary LDS film # 09119006 Tyrone, Waterford, Westmeath, Wexford, Wicklow LDS film # 0919007 Valuation Office Records The Valuation office was set up to carry out the original Primary Valuation. It is still in existance and has in its possession the original set of notebooks used by the Griffiths Valuation surveyors These are the field books, the house books and tthe tenure books. All 3 have maps which indicate the holding they refer to. Field Books: Information on the size & quality of a holding House Books: Occupiers name and measurement of any buildings Tenure Books: Annual rent paid and legal basis - whether by lease or at will, also the year of any lease. These notebooks also document any changes in occupation between the initial survey and the final published survey. The valuation office also holds the 'Cancelled' or 'revision' Land Books and Current Land Books. The Cancelled land books are similar to those of the published valuation but observations made are handrwritten in on these. The observations can show whether the size or physical structure of the holding were altered, also the changes in the name of the landlord or occupier..this can show death or emigration for a particular year. Changes may have been noted up to a few years after the actual change. It is best to go to the original earlier years and work your way forward with these because the actual numbers of lots can have changed over the years because of lots being broken up or joined together. The Land Commission was created by the 1881 Land Act. Initially is was created to determine fair rents but its main purpose became to assist tenants to purchase their property. A Congested Districts Board was set up in 1891 and this had a similar function, but it was abolished by the Irish Govt. in 1923 and its powere transfered to the Land Comission. So, in the latter part of the 19thC and the early part of the 20thC people who occupied land were able to buy that lant. You will see an entry in the cancelled boks showing (In Fee) meaning that the occupier was now the owner. Also, on these you may see LAP.Land Act Purchase stamped on an entry, meaning that the occupier had been assisted in by the Lands Commissoin to purchase the land. The cancelled books for the 26 counties are held in Dublin in the Valuation Office while those for the 6 counties of Northern Ireland are held in the PRONI in Belfast. Those in Dublin are bound together by year in large volumes, the oldest being at the back (oldest = Griffiths) Those in Belfast are not bound and have to be asked for separately and are only available up to the 1930's. The related maps are also held in the Valuatoin Office. These are Ordnance Survey Sheets onto hwhich the property boundaries were drawn. Changes in holdings are also indicated on the maps.

You know your ancestors came from Ireland but you don't know where in ireland - you know they came from a particular county but you don't know where in that county............ and while I've said how small a country we really are....how small our counties are.....we did once have a population of about 8 million..... and there are only so many records remaining. how do you make the search area smaller.....where do you begin? There are three possibilities open to you - before you begin the search for and through parish registers. The earliest records are usually going to be the 1. Tithes and then 2. Griffiths for some counties. You can get some idea which parts of the country or a county that a surname was found in using Griffiths......*but* the Griffiths is a land valuation - the names listed in Griffiths are based on the value of the land.....and that in itself changed as far as I can remember from one county to the next or from one year in which the valuation was being carried out to the next......the year was different for different counties. however, Ireland was not all farmed.....we had mines, we had professionals..... Most people searching today are looking for descendants or relatives of their ancestors who left Ireland during the famine period. For some to even be able to identify the county from which their ancestors left would be enough........ so 3: the death indices.......... I personally like to take a look at the early death register indices to give me some idea of where names were found - or a variation on a name. Registration began in 1864. Few people actually bothered with registration - if one looks at the registration indices for those early years, compared to the 1890's - and compared to now - and considers the differences in population sizes to those times and now - one gets an idea of how few probably did register. *But* the death indices are still useful - to me - more useful than the brith and marriage ones......because the death indices list the age of the person at death. If i'm looking for surname distribution - and I see that six people died in one district with that surname in 1864.......and they were all under the age of 16.....and I also see that one or two people died in another district close by in that same year - and that these two were much older - in their 60's..... well then - that's the district I will begin to look for parish registers for - that's the district that my family may have come from - always keeping in mind that for every family - no matter how many left - there more than likely was at least one person who didn't get to leave...... and they had to die..........and maybe - just maybe I'll be lucky and find them registered....... showing me the way to the parish registers..... When you don't have a specific place to go looking.......when the parish registers for an area are sparse..... Sometimes it's nice just to be able to home in on an area..... The Register indices are available through LDS research centres.....and the good thing for those of you who use them is that unlike me - you can also use the Marriage and birth indices in a surname/district search. When I look at the marriage and brith indices here in Ireland - all I get is a name....nothing else - unless I pay the nice men in the GRO for a photocopy of the entry so I can see what parish the people were from - any details there are.....but for those of you who use the LDS centres....you can get the inf owhich is on those photocopies I pay for here. I don't fully understand how the LDS system works........maybe someone will enlighten me..... Jane :-)