Hi there, My great-grandfather, Gilbert James SUTCLIFFE was born of the parents James SUTCLIFFE and Fanny (DIXON) in 1857 in Leamington Spa, Warwickshire, England. My research thus far has located the marriage certificate for James and Fanny, who were married on 23 Mar 1856 in Manchester, Lancaster, England. My 2nd great-grandfather James SUTCLIFFE is listed, in British census records from 1851 thru 1891, as being born in Ireland. In particular, the 1881 census lists him as being born about 1832 in Abbeyleix, Queens County (now Leix/Laois), Leinster, Ireland. According to the census records, * James SUTCLIFFE was residing in Liverpool in 1851; * In 1861, he was living in Hoole with his wife and first two children; * In 1871, he was living in Chester, Cheshire, with his wife and six children; * By 1881, he was widowed with seven children and still living in Chester, Cheshire; * In 1891, James was still widowed and still living in Chester, Cheshire, with four of his adult children; and * He passed away on 14 May 1896 in Chester, Cheshire. Using http://www.familysearch.org <http://www.familysearch.org/> , I have located a James SUTLIFF, christened on 16 Oct 1831 in Abbeyleix, Laoighis, Ireland - born of the parents Gilbert SUTLIFF and Elizabeth SPRATT. I now need some way in which to confirm that this James SUTLIFF is indeed my 2nd great-grandfather. * Where could I find his birth record? What churches were there in Abbeyleix at the time? * Were there any other SUTLIFF families living in Abbeyleix at the time? * ? If so, then I would like to link up with the LDS church member who filed these records in order to trace the remaining family tree? Can anyone out there assist me in my quest? Regards, David L. Sutcliffe (Dave) IT Consultant and Lecturer 66 Springfield Road, Brighton, England, BN16DE United Kingdom (NEW) Tel: +44-1273-500036(home/work/fax), +44-7769-701949(mobile) (NEW) <mailto:[email protected]> mailto:[email protected] (NEW)

Have DNA match for these 3 fellas in Trumra Laois...any conntections out there that can help with with this area...leaving for Ireland in two weeks...Thankx, Mizz Lizz

Hello Laois listers, Just a little reminder to take care when replying to list messages. When messages get too long they are diverted to me for review. I then must decide whether to "prune" the message or to allow it to go through in its entirety. It would be helpful for us all if we delete anything in the original message that is not directly relevant to the response. Normally, a string of more than one message should have the older messages deleted before being sent to the list. Thanks everyone! Sharon Haggerty List administrator

----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathrine Corcoran" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 6:29 PM Subject: RE: [LAOIS] House books > Geralyn, > > Are the quarto and tenure books similar to the house and field books? > Which > would be the earliest? > > Thanks, Kay

Thanks to everyone who emailed great information and advice re the house books and my other questions. Wish me luck in Dublin next week! Deb **************** DEBORAH LARGE FOX www.deborahlarge.com member, Genealogical Speakers Guild http://www.genealogicalspeakersguild.org/member_details.php?member=FoxD

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: corisande1 Surnames: HOLMES BLONG Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.ireland.lex.general/2668.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Bob Thanks for your input. The Laois FHC is not online, and from experience on other counties, the chances of them having any comprehensive coverage pre 1800 is small. So I tend to rule them out. The FHC system is not geared to enabling the researcher to trawl for information. I have the Griffiths records, but they are more than 50 years on, and although they give a general guide to the density of a family surname, it is too late to try to link family groups, especially as I do not know who Mary HOLMES father was (I do not have the marriage record) I am in Portarlington at the end of this month and am looking at the Lea C of I registers there. However the problem is that the marriage could have been in any of the surrounding Laois or Offaly parishes. I have uncovered a Mary HOLMES born in 1803 in Coolbanagher Parish (a neighbouring parish to Lea), but it is not she, as that Holmes family know from their records whom she married. The Blongs whom she married into have now disappeared from Portarlington, and I have had to rely on expat family information to build a picture of the Blongs. I feel my best chance of sucess with Mary HOLMES is to unearth an ex-pat descendant David. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: rm_anc Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.ireland.lex.general/2668.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: The GV for Queens/Lea Parish shows one Holmes so it is not a common surname in this area. Holmes Joshua Killinure Lea Laois refer to URL: http://tinyurl.com/aq73k2 A starting point to see if anything is available for this parish via the FHC system. Bob Cdn ========================================= Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: cosib Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.ireland.lex.general/2669/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I am searching for information relating to the adoption of a little girl called baby Fleming who was born on 27 July 1929 in a nursing home in Dublin, Ireland run by the infamous Nurse Cadden. Her mother it is believed was called Nora Fleming, and was a typist. It was believed that the mother emigrated to Ameria after the birth.The child who is now almost 80 years old is red haired and of small build. Any information would be greatly appreciated Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Mary was my g-g-grandmother and she married George in or near PORTARLINGTON, LAOIS in Ireland around 1825 to 1835 She died in 1877 aged 82, implying a birth date of 1795. As far as I am aware she lived her life in PORTARLINGTON. Her married name of "" was later written as "" and appears to have had a number of spellings. Anyone help me with more information on MARY ?

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: corisande1 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.ireland.lex.general/2668/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Mary HOLMES was my g-g-grandmother and she married George BLONG in or near PORTARLINGTON, LAOIS in Ireland around 1825 to 1835 She died in 1877 aged 82, implying a birth date of 1795. As far as I am aware she lived her life in Portarlington. Her married name of "BLONG" was later written as "BLANC" and appears to have had a number of spellings. Anyone help me with more information on MARY HOLMES? Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

In a message dated 2/2/2009 9:19:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: What sort of information can one expect to find in the House and Field books Deb, If the House books are the ones i'm thinking of they're the ones called revision books by the LDS. They are handwritten and "walk" you down a village house by house. They note the value of the property, but most importantly they note when the house changed ownership, crossing out the old owner's name and writing in the new owner above.You probably are familiar with them under another title, as I was. The LDS roll that I was most interested in (Clogh and it's surrounds) is 0845570, the entire area is covered from 0845565 through 0845572. Good luck on your trip. Jack Langton **************Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1217883258x1201191827/aol?redir=http://ad.doubleclick. net/clk;211531132;33070124;e)

Deb, Prior to the published versions of Griffith's Valuation the local valuers who were doing the survey wrote down the information in notebooks - these became known as the 'house books' and 'field books.'  The house books note information about occupiers while the field books describe the quality of the land etc.  Most of the notebooks can be viewed on microfilm at the National Archives, or you could probably order copies from the LDS. Sometimes if you're lucky you can find out that between the housebook and Griffith's the land transferred from one family member to another, giving you an important clue to the identity of the previous generation - see here: http://irishfamilyhistory.ie/blog/?p=226 Hope this helps, Rachel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:18:12 -0500 From: "Deborah Fox" <[email protected]> Subject: [LAOIS] House books To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;     reply-type=original What sort of information can one expect to find in the House and Field books that some list members are mentioning? Is the information historical, geographical, or biographical? Does anyone know if they are kept at any Dublin repository? Deb **************** DEBORAH LARGE FOX www.deborahlarge.com member, Genealogical Speakers Guild http://www.genealogicalspeakersguild.org/member_details.php?member=FoxD Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: eaglebald1 Surnames: Campion Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.ireland.lex.general/2667.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Ballinakill cemetery records; Campion Joseph; 92, RC, Blacksmith, Widower, Drimnaerril? 28/4/1962 Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: yvonnebarna Surnames: Campion Classification: birth Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.ireland.lex.general/2667/mb.ashx Message Board Post: my grandfather joseph campion born around 1870 in Ballinakill, County Laois Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Deb, the house and field books are part of the manuscript Valuation records connected with the more well-known printed "Griffith's Valuation". They are the notes made by people in the field concerning the valuation of land and buildings. Like anyone's field notes, some are better than others! A lot of preparatory work went into the printing of Griffith's. In some cases, the notes cover a period of a few years before Griffith's was printed, so you can see the change in land tenure over that period in the late 1840s, during the Famine. For more on this topic, see my post to the Tipperary list of 8/9/2008, subject: using the Field and House Books: the England family in Bourney & Corbally parish. It is in the Tipperary list archives at http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/IRL-TIPPERARY/2008-08/1218332987. Here is part of what I wrote there: ----- Many people are familiar with the printed version of "Griffith's Valuation" (online at the subscription site Origins or the new free version at "Ask About Ireland" http://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/gv_start.php ). The Field Books and House Books also contain valuation records, but they pre-date Griffith's by 3 years or so in some areas (as in this case). During that time, the books were updated in much the same way as the Valuation Revision lists, which carry the Valuation forward into modern times: names were struck out and replaced with other names (or not, especially during era of the Famine and evictions). Field books are concerned with the land, and house books with the buildings. This pre-Griffith's material has not been indexed. Much of it is very hard to read. You just have to get the films for the area of interest to you and look through them. They are available through the Family History Library (FHL). Sometimes (as below) there are gems; sometimes not. The better you understand Irish valuation records (not just the printed version), the more you can get out of them. There was an excellent article by David Ouimette about this set of records (House Books, Field Books, etc.) in Vol. 27, No. 1 (Jan 2006) of The Septs, a publication of the Irish Genealogical Society International, based in Minnesota, USA. If you are doing Irish research and aren't a member, you should be, just to get their fine publication, which recently received an award. I also recommend the book "Richard Griffith and His Valuation of Ireland" by James R. Reilly, a preview of which (not the complete book) is online at Google Books: http://tinyurl.com/5v8ku8. ... There is additional information in the house books, such as the dimensions of each building. This particular house book [FHL Film 2355162, it. 1 County Tipperary, Barony of Ikerrin, Bourney parish, Bonagortbaun p. 31-35] is dated 26 July 1847 and therefore pre-dates the published version of Griffith's for this area by about 3 or 4 years. The information in this book was updated by striking out names, rewriting lot numbers, etc., and the final version used to compile the printed version of Griffith's. It is a valuable but little-used resource for tracking people in this area of Ireland during the crucial Famine Years, when many died or emigrated. In this case, just the addition of the word "Widow" for Ellen England can suggest that one look for a marriage record. ----- I then went on to describe in detail what I found for the England family of northeast County Tipperary, near the Laois border. Someone on the list had asked about them, and I happened to have copied the house and field books for the area in which they lived in Tipperary, so I checked and reported what I had found. You can see there the type of material they contain. I might add that in my own family, the name of my ggg-gfather Daniel Kavanagh appears in Griffith's with just a house (in Clonbough, civil parish of Killavinoge, Co. Tipperary). But the manuscript material shows that in the few years prior to that, he held several larger parcels of land in nearby townlands, probably running cattle on them. When he came to the US, Daniel was a tailor, but I had wondered if that was what he did in Ireland, or whether he also farmed. So this information gives me a very different picture of my family than I had from just looking at Griffith's. It leads me to believe the family was preparing for emigration by disposing of their leases, and lets me know that Daniel probably did both farming and tailoring in Ireland, since I had wondered about that when I saw him with only a house (no land) in Griffith's Valuation... His eldest daughter Julia and her husband John Murphy emigrated during this very period, so it is interesting to have this confirmati on of preparations for emigration in Irish records also. I also wrote this to someone else privately in March 2006: ====== An article by David Ouimette in the January 2006 issue of The Septs (a publication of the Irish Genealogical Society International in Minnesota) mentioned that the manuscript Valuation books, including Quarto, Perambulation (aka Tenure), House, Rent and Field Books, are now available at the FHL. The books were filmed 2001 - 2004 and just released. Many of them appear to be still in the vault. The film series (365 films) starts with FHL #2262960. They are arranged by County, then alphabetically by Barony and then Parish or Townland (some are out of order). It is not always clear what is on each film. I ordered two of the house books from Laois in at my local Family History Center last month because they mentioned parishes of interest to me and found that they included only the larger towns in the parishes mentioned in the catalog, not all townlands. ===== Veronica, note what I wrote 3 years ago, after I had just looked at the filmed Laois house books. So perhaps you will not find Garranbaun after all! Or perhaps I just missed the part with the rural areas... or perhaps the descriptions in the FHL catalog are lacking. So you should certainly check the films thoroughly yourself, since I was not looking for Garranbaun in particular, or for anything in the barony of Tinnahinch. I will see if I can find my old notes from when I looked at those particular films... Also, keep in mind that the actual content of the manuscript Valuation books varies quite a bit from location to location. Sometimes the records do not even list names of people, but rather just the land parcels. The only way to know what is true for the area of interest to you is to check the records thoroughly yourself. (Ouimette's article in The Septs does mention certain areas where the records do contain names of people, but I do not think his list complete.) I have to make another plug for the IGSI (Irish Genealogical Society International, website at http://www.irishgenealogical.org/): If you are a member, you can now view and download any of the issues of IGSI’s quarterly journal The Septs since the beginning of its publication in 1980! It is a great publication, with many articles written by well-known Irish researchers. So you can read David Ouimette's excellent article yourself online if you join. They are also running a special on membership just now - get 2 others to join with you and you get your membership free! See their website for details and how to go about it. There are many other reasons to join beyond receiving The Septs. They have a wonderful library in Minnesota, and the staff will do lookups for members at a nominal charge. Perhaps several people on the list will want to get together and join... Deb, the original manuscript books are certainly in Dublin at the National Archives, but I don't know where the films might be in Dublin. If you check the FHL catalog for the film numbers above, you can see the following note: "Microreproduction of original manuscript records at the National Archives of Ireland, Dublin. These are the original notebooks used when making valuations of property. They are basically arranged by county, then alphabetically by barony and then parish or townland. Some are out of order. The surveys include maps of the areas surveyed. A printed and indexed compilation of these valuations, known as "General Valuation of Rateable Property in Ireland, 1847-1864" or "Griffith's Valuation" is also available." Geralyn Wood Barry in Oregon, USA Deborah Fox wrote: > What sort of information can one expect to find in the House and Field books > that some list members are mentioning? Is the information historical, > geographical, or biographical? Does anyone know if they are kept at any > Dublin repository? Deb

What sort of information can one expect to find in the House and Field books that some list members are mentioning? Is the information historical, geographical, or biographical? Does anyone know if they are kept at any Dublin repository? Deb **************** DEBORAH LARGE FOX www.deborahlarge.com member, Genealogical Speakers Guild http://www.genealogicalspeakersguild.org/member_details.php?member=FoxD

While looking through the House Books I came across the following tidbit which I found interesting even though I am not researching in this town. A few words I could not read. Queens County, Barony of Tinnahinch, Parish of Kilmanman, Town of Clonaslee James Montgomery, Town Surveyer, December 1850 "This is a very poor little Town and is daily growing more ?, oneside of the Street especially is in many cases a Ruinous Street. Many of the Houses are occupied by Pauper Lodgers free of Rent in order to avoid sending them to the Work House in Mt. Mellick - The Poor Rates were very high last year in this district having amounted (3 rates, to 15 (sorry I couldn't interpret the money). There is no market. There are 4 fairs badly attended. There is no custom charged. The Proprietor Col. Dunne, M.P. is in Embarrassed Circumstances and unable to promote the prosperity? of the Town or his Estate, although I hear he has every disposition to do so if he had the power." Veronica

Veronica, I think it best to proceed on the assumption that Garranbaun (aka Garranbawn) is there somewhere. It was over 1200 acres, so a pretty big townland, even though not many people appear there in Griffith's. If you look at the current valuation online at http://www.valoff.ie/search/search.asp (select County: Laois and put Garranbawn in for the townland, then hit the "Submit" button) you will see the modern entries, which are no longer listed by barony but rather by District and Electoral Division. You never know which records might have gotten lost over the years... but it seems more likely to me that you will find Garranbaun in another place on the film you already have for Tinnahinch or on one of the other films for the same barony. A similar thing sometimes happens with the Tithe Applotments. When I don't find what I'm looking for in the jurisdiction where I expected it to be, I start looking in adjacent jurisdictions and usually find it. So you have looked at only one of the films for the barony of Tinnahinch so far? If it's not on that one (out of order maybe - I seem to recall that towns are sometimes listed separately from rural areas located in the same jurisdiction) then you will probably find it on the other film for Tinnahinch. If not, I would try Upperwoods next. If you don't find it there, there might be a slim possibility that it was included in records from the other side of the border, since Garranbaun lies on the border with Kings County (Offaly). I have seen it happen with the Ordnance Survey Name Books (discussions of place names for the border area of one county appearing among those of the adjacent county), but I can't say that I've ever seen it with Valuation records. And since the barony of Tinnahinch didn't cross the county border, I would think it unlikely. You'd think there would at least be some consistency for all records associated with the Valuation, i.e., a given townland should appear in the same jurisdictions across all records associated with the Valuation - Griffith's, house books, field books, revision lists, etc. But perhaps not. So I would exhaust the possibilities for Tinnahinach before trying Upperwoods. There is also the possibility that part of Tinnahinch is on some other film for Laois but did not make it into the description in the FHL catalog. That sometimes happens too. After exhausting known films for Tinnahinch and Upperwoods, I would then try to find another listing of the available house books. I haven't seen any myself, but I haven't really looked. Maybe there is a listing that is independent of the FHL descriptions at the valuation office website or the National Archives or in the National Library of Ireland catalog. Geralyn Veronica Malmberg wrote: > Thanks Geralyn. I also had the conflicting info about which barony > included Garranbaun so I did search through Upperwoods also without finding > it. I'm pretty sure I looked through the whole film but I will check again > based on your comment about them being fragmented. If not I guess I will > proceed to the other suggested films. I'm interpreting your response to > mean that I should find Garranbaun on some film. > Veronica

Thanks Geralyn. I also had the conflicting info about which barony included Garranbaun so I did search through Upperwoods also without finding it. I'm pretty sure I looked through the whole film but I will check again based on your comment about them being fragmented. If not I guess I will proceed to the other suggested films. I'm interpreting your response to mean that I should find Garranbaun on some film. Veronica > [Original Message] > From: Geralyn Barry <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Cc: IRL-TIPPERARY <[email protected]> > Date: 2/1/2009 3:36:22 PM > Subject: Re: [LAOIS] House Books > > According to the General Alphabetical Index to the Townlands and Towns, etc. [based on the 1851 census], Garranbaun is in the barony of Upperwoods, not Tinnahinch . However, when I actually look at Griffith's, it appears in the barony of Tinnahinch! The fact that the 1851 census and Griffith's classify it in two different baronies leads me to believe there may have been some confusion about where to include it. That would argue for looking for it in both baronies, in the civil parish of Offerlane in either case. [Note: my map shows that the barony boundary does not split Offerlane, so its being in two different baronies is somewhat puzzling, but there could be subtleties to the situation that are not reflected in the maps, which are not very exact and are static in time.] > > > Before you check Offerlane, however, have you looked at all possible films on which parts of Tinnahinch appear? These records can be somewhat fragmented, so you might need to consult several films. You also might need to look through the entire film to make sure another part of Tinnahinch doesn't appear again at a different place on the film. As I said, these records are fragmented. > > > If you have done all that and still have not found it, I would try Upperwoods (which is on the same film in some cases) and do the same thing (checking the entire film on all films). These appear to be the relevant films: > > > House books, v. 2921(continued from Thomastown) v. 2922; v. 2923 - v. 2931, County Leitrim, Baronies of Carrigallen, Dromahaire, Leitrim, Roselogher and Mohill; v. 2932 - v. 2952 (to p. 70), Queen's County, Baronies of Cullenagh, Upperwoods, Tinnahinch and Clandonagh, Towns of Durrow, Graigue and Maryborough FHL BRITISH Film 2355799 > > > House books, v. 2952 (from p. 70) - v. 2968, Queen's County, Baronies of Maryborough, Tinnahinch, Portnahinch and Clandonagh FHL BRITISH Film 2355817 > > > Field books, Queen's County, Barony of Portnahinch -- Lea; Barony of Slievemargy -- Cloydagh, Killabban, Killeshin, Rathaspick, Shrule, Sleaty; Barony of Stradbally -- Ballyadams, Curraclone, Dysartenos, Fossy or Timahoe, Kilteale, Moyanna, Stradbally, Timogue, Tullomoy; Barony of Tinnahinch -- Castlebrack, Kilmanman, Rearymore, Rosenallis; Barony of Upperwoods -- Offerlane FHL BRITISH Film 2357656 > > > Field books, Queen's County, Barony of Upperwoods -- Offerlane; County Roscommon, Barony of Athlone -- Cam, Drum, Dysart, Fuerty, Killinvoy, Kilmeane, Kiltoom, Rahara, St. John's, St. Peter's, Taghboy, Taghmaconnell, Tisrara; Barony of Ballintober North -- Kilglass FHL BRITISH Film 2357657 > > > Field books, Queen's County, Barony of Ballyadams -- various parishes; Barony of Clandonagh -- various parishes; Barony of Clarmallagh -- various parishes; Barony of Cullenagh -- various parishes; Barony of Maryboro East -- various parishes; Barony of Portnahinch -- various parishes; Barony of Slievemargy -- various parishes; Barony of Stradbally -- various parishes; Barony of Tinnahinch -- various parishes; Barony of Upper Woods -- various parishes VAULT BRITISH Film 1408709 Items 4 - 13 > > > Geralyn Wood Barry in Oregon > > Veronica Malmberg wrote: > > Would one expect to find a House and Field Book for each townland in existence in the mid 1800s? I was hoping to find one for Garranbaun which is in Laois but near Roscrea near the Tipperary border. I rented LDS film 2355799 which contained the Barony of Tinnihinch . For Tinnihinch the only town was Clonaslee. I didn't see any other film in the library catalogue that might have been more appropriate. Perhaps the LDS have not filmed all of the books. Can someone shed more light on the House Books. I may just be confused. Thanks. > > Veronica >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: deborahlargefox Surnames: Kavanagh, Large Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.ireland.lex.general/2666.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Where in Canada did this Cavanagh family settle? Do you know if James had any sisters? Am researching a Brigid Kavanagh who married a Thomas Large around 1820. She left for Canada after Thomas' death. There is a long family story that I won't repeat here, but she might have been from Laois and there are British army connections. Would like to hear more about this James. Deborah Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.